REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The true meaning of Christmas

POSTED BY: FREDGIBLET
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 08:03
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2001
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Monday, October 29, 2007 1:10 PM

FREDGIBLET


I considered posting this in Talk Story but I figured the discussions it might generate would get it kicked here anyway. This was posted on another board I read and is reposted with the authors consent.

Quote:

Ah, the Holiday seasons are here. The air is crisp and cold, the smell of pine tickles the nose, and white will cover the land as surely as red and green will cover the trailer park. It's Christmas time, everyone! Back again, for yet another six month marathon, that jolly old holiday known for it's infectious cheerful nature, and a steep rise in suicide related deaths. And we all know what Christmas is about: commerce. That's right, the very thing that makes our society work, the need to give and recieve presents.

But some people have another image in their heads when Christmas time comes around. Instead of brightly colored packages, all done up in bows, and good hot cocoa on a cold winter day, these people are determined to bring gloom to the holiday. Their icon is a crummy old dead guy on a stick, and their message is clear: "Christmas is about Jesus."

Sick and tired of hearing about this "Jesus" character during a season that is supposed to be about shopping? Three easy steps to put the mas back in Christmas, and get god out of the mall.

1. Shop early. The earlier you shop, the less likely you'll run into this "Jesus" character, or any of his freaky followers at the mall.

2. Support Santa. Santa is an excellent secular representitive of the holiday season, symbolizing economic progress in the form of consumerism, fat people, and the color red. Saint Nick may have once had religious conotations, but we've stripped those away very neatly.

3. Take the blasphemy challenge on Youtube! The Rational Response Squad is still giving away dvds to those willing to make a video of them stating "I deny the holy spirit" (the one unforgivable sin according to the New Testament). Two birds in one stone! Promote commerce and chase Jesus right out of the holidays!

But don't stop there. Come up with your own ideas to keep Jesus the hell out of the shopping season, and post them here




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Monday, October 29, 2007 2:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Heh, I LOL'ed.

Properly to me it would be Yule, tho.

Anyhows, there's a particular xmas special I've always adored, i think rankin-bass, but not sure.

The Life and Times of Santa Claus, or something.
http://www.bcdb.com/cartoon/27846-The_Life_and_Adventures_of_Santa_Cl.
html


Extraordinarily pagan view of the claus-boy.

Gonna try to borrow a couple of my sisters kids this holiday, kids really seem to get the concept of being happy to be happy, or at least the ones from my line do - one hopes for some of it to wear off on me,

-F

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Monday, October 29, 2007 2:59 PM

ALLIETHORN7


Ah, Christmas!
The sights, the sounds, the smells, the muggings!
Gotta love how we've taken a holiday dedicated to peace on Earth and general love for humanity and made it into a consumer ball.
w00t.

-Danny

and every time I play with passion I start breaking strings,
and my voice cracks when I sing from my heart
guess that's the price I've got to pay to know that I'm alive
this melody is tearing me apart


THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
My Master went to the Moon in a Rocket of Flamin' Cheese!
I LIKE CHEESE!!!
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Monday, October 29, 2007 3:11 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


It's sad how some people have taken a holiday dedicated to peace on Earth and general love for humanity and turned it into hatred of other people for their religious views.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, October 29, 2007 4:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Christmas is a sham Holiday, but not because it's evolved into a mercantile orgy. The Christians co-opted the Saturnalia, the Natalis Solis Invicti, and the Yule from pagans in order to increase pagan conversions to the church. (Hey, you can still party. We'll just call it Christ mass now.)

Jesus of Nazareth was most likely not born on Christmas day, nor even in close proximity to it.

The early Christians had a tradition of co-opting and re-labeling pagan holidays to suit their purposes. In essence, 'selling Christmas' began with the very same people who decry the loss of 'Christ' in Christmas.

After all, Christ was never in Christmas... at least not till some intrepid religious leaders sold everyone else on the idea.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, October 29, 2007 4:53 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Christmas is a sham Holiday, but not because it's evolved into a mercantile orgy. The Christians co-opted the Saturnalia, the Natalis Solis Invicti, and the Yule from pagans in order to increase pagan conversions to the church. (Hey, you can still party. We'll just call it Christ mass now.)

Actually this is not really true. December 25 was adopted as a Christian holiday because it was a sacred festival in the pre-Christian Roman religion. When the Romans became Christian they simply adopted their own festivals for their new religion – it never had anything to do with forcing pagans to become Christians (at least not in the sense that most people mean). That is a fallacy that has propagated through popular thought.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, October 29, 2007 8:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Christmas is a sham Holiday, but not because it's evolved into a mercantile orgy. The Christians co-opted the Saturnalia, the Natalis Solis Invicti, and the Yule from pagans in order to increase pagan conversions to the church. (Hey, you can still party. We'll just call it Christ mass now.)

Actually this is not really true. December 25 was adopted as a Christian holiday because it was a sacred festival in the pre-Christian Roman religion. When the Romans became Christian they simply adopted their own festivals for their new religion – it never had anything to do with forcing pagans to become Christians (at least not in the sense that most people mean). That is a fallacy that has propagated through popular thought.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero



Who said anything about 'forcing' Finn? Enticing is the word I would use.

And you seem to agree with me. To re-purpose your words the way they re-purposed Christmas: "December 25th was adopted as a Christian Holiday because it was a sacred holiday in the pre-Christian PAGAN religion commonly celebrated in the empire."

Around 300 years after Jesus was dead, Origen Adamantius, one of the fathers of the Christian church, frowned on the idea of celebrating Christmas. Between 350 and 430, Christmas was abruptly embraced. The dates were set to coincide with existing pagan celebrations. Keep in mind that there were plenty of Christians before this, and they didn't celebrate Christmas. But when you make Christianity the official religion of the Empire, you've got to sell it. And you don't sell it by saying, "If you become Christian, you can't celebrate the Saturnalia. Or the Yule. Or whatever other party you were getting down to."

The church could not condone or endorse the celebration of pagan rites. But they could and did absolutely re-purpose pagan celebrations and officially endorse them under new Politically Correct names. Something which is completely blasphemous, but was a necessary part of spreading the religion.

So burn your Yule Log for Thor, and thank early Christians for starting the tradition of spinning the facts of the season to sell their religion to the masses.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:26 AM

JONGSSTRAW


What a bunch of sad, pathetic, grumpy GRINCHES you are! Christmas is for THE KIDS!

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:58 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Around 300 years after Jesus was dead, Origen Adamantius, one of the fathers of the Christian church, frowned on the idea of celebrating Christmas. Between 350 and 430, Christmas was abruptly embraced. The dates were set to coincide with existing pagan celebrations. Keep in mind that there were plenty of Christians before this, and they didn't celebrate Christmas. But when you make Christianity the official religion of the Empire, you've got to sell it.

You make it seem as if Christians just jumped into Europe and stole everyone else's religion. That’s not the way things happen. Christianity was already the dominate religion in the Empire before it became the Roman religion. It spread like wildfire throughout the Roman world because of its message and its simplicity long before anyone ever tried to “entice” anyone into being Christian. Unlike the pagan religion, Christianity was not centered on the exaltation of the state, but instead held a philosophy of charity and peace, while simultaneously encouraging people to distrust the state. In the Roman world where masses of people saw the Roman state as oppressive, Christianity was an unstoppable force. Roman rulers realized this, which is why they ultimately embraced it, after years of persecuting it.

But Christianity did not carry with it a “religion” – it was simply a philosophy or a belief. There was no church of Christianity associated with it. There was no alter to pray upon, and there were no festivals. There was simply a belief and a philosophy that was readily adopted by other cultures. When Romans became Christian they did not change their religious practices. They did not stop holding vestal virgins sacred. They did not stop believing in the capitoline trinity. They did not stop believing in the heroes. And they did not stop practicing their own festivals and celebrating their own sacred holidays. They simply did what they had always done, which was to adopt a new religion into their pantheon of beliefs. This is why Christianity today has so many pre-Christian European influences.

If anyone co-opted anything, it was the pagans who co-opted Christianity. You claim that Christians never celebrated Christmas before some unspecified date, but far more likely is that there were many Christians throughout the Roman world who adopted their own festivals including the celebrating of the solstice into their Christian belief. And Christmas was celebrated by Christians long before the Church of Rome ever made any decree concerning it.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:55 AM

PHOEBEROSETTA


where I used to live they'd put up a flashing sign by the mall during holiday times...

"lock packages in the trunk
be sure your doors are locked
take safety precautions"

Merry F*ckin Christmas, y'all.....GEEEESH!

--------------------------------
Rule #1 for a healthy and productive life..."don't p*ss off the redhead!"

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 5:15 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It's sad how some people have ...



Not sad, Finn, funny! This is a piece of satire aimed at the dour folks who insist on guilt tripping people over their lack of religious purity at Christmas time.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"When Romans became Christian they did not change their religious practices. They did not stop holding vestal virgins sacred. They did not stop believing in the capitoline trinity. They did not stop believing in the heroes. And they did not stop practicing their own festivals and celebrating their own sacred holidays. They simply did what they had always done, which was to adopt a new religion into their pantheon of beliefs."

We almost agree, Finn. But the fact that we no longer call it the Saturnalia is my point. The people refused to drop their old celebrations and practices in favor of Christianity, which is something that Christian belief demanded of its adherents. (God being a jealous God and all.)

The religious leaders aka the early church were the ones who 'stopped' celebration of things like the Saturnalia by re-purposing and re-naming them. Note that we don't celebrate the Saturnalia AND Christmas, which is what you'd expect when Christian beliefs are tacked on to an existing belief system. Rather, we celebrate the Christmas IN LIEU OF the Saturnalia.

Christians absolutely adopted, re-purposed, and re-named the pagan celebrations. It was the P.C. solution, precisely because people didn't want to drop their pantheon of parties, and the church couldn't allow pagan festivals to continue to be celebrated amongst their adherents. So the pagan festivals and practices were allowed to continue... but no longer under their original names or pretext.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA


"Unlike the pagan religion, Christianity was not centered on the exaltation of the state, but instead held a philosophy of charity and peace.."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

I don't even know where to begin with that post, but this one was laugh-out-loud funny held up to the religion that gave us Bishops and Popes yanking royal strings, setting policy for government, the inquisition, the crusades, and the idea of Divine Right to Rule.
(edit: ok, that last seems to have originated with the Egyptians, but christians did carry it forward with folks like charlemange..)

And the idea that Pagans exalted the state is even funnier given how the Romans treated them, along with the Jews... take the fate of Hypatia of Alexandria for instance...

"Hypatia met an early and gruesome death at the hands of a mob of monks who pulled her from her chariot, drug her into a church, stripped her of her clothing, hacked her body to pieces with sharp shells, then took her dismembered body to another location and burned it."

Charity and Peace, oh yeah.

I celebrate christmas, yule, whatever you wanna call it, as an earnest hope for peace, that someday hopefully soon, all these fools will realize we're all human, all the same vastly extended family on this puny little ball of muddy water, and learn to see and value lives beyond their own.

I know that's a lot to wish for, but I think to some degree everyone who celebrates it, does so as a gesture of hope and faith in *something*, and in that we find common cause no matter our belief.

Or, we could go on slaughtering each other.

I know which option I prefer.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:10 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"It spread like wildfire throughout the Roman world because of its message and its simplicity long before anyone ever tried to “entice” anyone into being Christian."

My understanding is that the Roman religion was very much a state religion, with a few high officials as special envoys to the gods and the vast masses as mere spectators.

X-tianity was a private religion where individuals could invoke god(s) privately and have a special, personal relationship with him(her). That's why the lower classes liked it so much. It could be theirs.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:51 AM

WHODIED


Dead guy on a stick? wow...

I am tolerant of our various tribes' apparent need for invisible super-friends to protect them, or sponsor them into some after-life or another.

I am especially pleased that there are fewer such groups who will slaughter me for giggling as they proselytize about peace and love.

You know who you are. Kudos. It's like your bed-time story has, er, evolved.

Still, I find it unlikely that the prophet/messiah/icon pertinent to any such cult would actually be a member of same.

As to the true meaning of Christmas? That's easy: recycle.



--WhoDied


_______________________

Am I a thing worth saving, huh? (shakes her) Am I a righteous man? (shakes her) The world wants me gone!





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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:59 AM

WHODIED


Oh. And happy Garunthar's ascendance!



--WhoDied


_______________________

You know, honey, I was thinking. Maybe we should invite Faith to spend Christmas Eve with us.



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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:02 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


Jesus of Nazareth was most likely not born on Christmas day, nor even in close proximity to it.





Or indeed in Nazareth, or, indeed at all.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:05 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What a bunch of sad, pathetic, grumpy GRINCHES you are! Christmas is for THE KIDS!

Just like Ritilin.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It's all about pretty lights decorating the night, letting everyone who sees them know that in that house someone took the time and trouble to make things nice... just because it's a nice thing to do.

(That doesn't include the overdecorated places that scream of competition and obsession.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:14 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


Jesus of Nazareth was most likely not born on Christmas day, nor even in close proximity to it.





Or indeed in Nazareth, or, indeed at all.



Come on, it's at least likely that he existed. A religion like that wouldn't jump out of nowhere, even if we suppose he was just a wise preacher telling people to be nice to one another.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"It's all about pretty lights decorating the night, letting everyone who sees them know that in that house someone took the time and trouble to make things nice... just because it's a nice thing to do."

Yeah, kinda like the beer commercial for Corona - with the lights in the palm trees.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:49 AM

CITIZEN


Actually there's evidence that a guy called Jesus lived at the time and was a carpenter. The broad strokes of Jesus's life as portrayed in the Bible is probably based on fact, mostly. Whether or not he was the Son of God, a traveling space alien, a crazy nut or some guy with a really fucked up sense of humour, is an exercise for the reader.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:28 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Christians absolutely adopted, re-purposed, and re-named the pagan celebrations. It was the P.C. solution, precisely because people didn't want to drop their pantheon of parties, and the church couldn't allow pagan festivals to continue to be celebrated amongst their adherents. So the pagan festivals and practices were allowed to continue... but no longer under their original names or pretext.

That’s not an accurate description. You’re packaging 1800 years into a vastly oversimplified version of history without any context.

We never called Christmas Saturnalia. To begin with Saturnalia doesn’t have anything to do with Christmas. The Roman celebration that developed into Christmas was the celebration of the Winter Solstice, which in most European cultures was usually associated with rebirth or renewing of the year or the harvest. In the third century the Romans associated the Winter Solstice with the birth of the Sun God, Sol Invictus, NOT Saturn. Saturn didn’t have anything to do with it, and by the second century Saturn was not seriously worshiped at all. Except for the Capitoline Gods, which represented the power of the state, the Romans had moved on from their early Greek-based polytheistic religion. Roman religions in the late Empire tended to be quasi-monotheistic cults like the Cult of Isis, Christianity, Mithracism or the Sol Invictus. If you go to Italy, where the language is derived from Latin, you’ll find that in Italian the word for Christmas is Natale, which is derived from the Latin “Natalis Solis Invicti,” which means “the birth of the unconquered Sun god,” which was the name given to the celebration of the Winter Solstice in the Pre-Christian late Latin Roman Empire.

As far as English, the early English wouldn’t become Christian until years after the collapse of the Western Rome Empire, but Christian peoples in Britain celebrated the Winter Solstice in late December as they had for thousands of years and it was called various things. The two most common were Christmastide and Yuletide (yuletide or Geol is a the pre-Christian Germanic term for the celebration of the Winter Solstice). But Christmas did not become a celebration sanctified by the English speaking Christian Church until quite recently. As early as the 16th and 17th centuries the Church was against the celebration of Christmas. So where did the celebration of Christmas come from? Not the Church. It came from centuries of observance of the Winter Solstice by Germanic speaking peoples.

Medieval and Ancient European states had always consolidated its power against religious cults that it felt threaten it. The Romans persecuted Christians for two centuries. And after the Roman state became Christian they continued to persecute religions and people that they felt threatened the state. This has nothing to do with Christianity. It’s just the the way, historically, regimes have worked, and it’s a separate issue from how Christianity spread in late Roman Empire. The fact is that pagans adopted Christianity into their belief structure and practices, and there is no doubt that then, just as today, there was rivalry between religions.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:30 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And the idea that Pagans exalted the state is even funnier given how the Romans treated them,

God, you don’t even have a clue what you’re talking about.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA


"In 391, Theophilus, the patriarch of Alexandria, ordered the destruction of some of the native Roman pagan temples in the city, which may have included the Musaeum and certainly included the Serapeum (a temple for the worship of Serapis and "daughter library" to the Great Library). In the same year Emperor Theodosius I had published an edict prohibiting various aspects of pagan worship, whereupon (although this was part of a wider phenomenon) Christians throughout the Roman Empire embarked upon a thorough campaign to destroy or christianize pagan places of worship."

Would you like to buy some more rope, Finn ?


When you got a Pope, that being Theophilus there, operating in full collusion with a friendly Emperor, towards the absolute destruction of the Pagans - how the hell can you say the Pagans venerated the state, even as it tried it's best to exterminate them.

How can you say the Christians did not, when the State of the time was in lockstep with their purposes.

I am not quite as familar with Roman history as I am US History, but even an amateur like me would find you statements laughable on the face of it.

The monks of those times were in conduct and action, as vicious and vile a pack of zealots as ever in history - the people as a whole were terrified of them, especially since they had the official backing of the State.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

EDIT: Only related linkage I could find as I am in a hurry to get off to work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapeum

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:57 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
How can you say the Christians did not, when the State of the time was in lockstep with their purposes.

First of all this isn’t true. The church would not gain that kind of power until centuries later. During the Roman period the Emperors controlled the Church, and they used their power oppressively against pagans, as much as against Christians, as they had centuries following the Roman Christian state. This was the way the Roman Empire worked, and it was the way it had always worked. As I said, you have no clue what you’re talking about.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:23 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


S'wenways, I think X-mas is about shopping. A brief orgy of gift unwrapping. And trash. And dead-tree pickup. And eggnog heavily fortified to get you through the season.

***************************************************************
Eggnog - the wonder grog of X-mas spirit.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:07 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Finn,

I can tell you have a broader understanding of history than I do, but my research disagrees with your assertions.

You assert the following: "As early as the 16th and 17th centuries the Church was against the celebration of Christmas. So where did the celebration of Christmas come from? Not the Church. It came from centuries of observance of the Winter Solstice by Germanic speaking peoples."

According to my reading, a Christmas feast was promoted in the east as part of the revival of Catholicism following the death of the pro-Arian Emperor Valens at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. The feast was introduced to Constantinople in 379, to Antioch in about 380, and to Alexandria in about 430. That seems Church sponsored and endorsed to me.

You can skip ahead to when Christmas was temporarily banned in England during the 17th century, if you like. During the Reformation, Protestants condemned Christmas celebration as "trappings of popery" and the "rags of the Beast". The Catholic Church responded by promoting the festival in an even more religiously oriented form. Apparently there was some rioting goodness in 1647 when England's rulers tried to ban Christmas. That ban was lifted some 13 years later. Seems to me the Protestants learned what the Catholics had long understood. You don't ban holidays. You adopt them.

Spin it. Sell it. It's a Christmas tradition since Roman times.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm really a fan of celebrating winter solstice myself. It's the longest night of the year - and before the advent of astronomy - when people looked for the sun to either return bringing new life and a new season - or not.

This year it happens December 22.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:21 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Finn,

I can tell you have a broader understanding of history than I do, but my research disagrees with your assertions.

I think I might have a broader understanding of Roman history then you do, but I’m not an historical expert. Christmas was banned in England during the Reformation. I’m not sure about before that, but probably since England was a Catholic state then probably not. Anyway, you’re right about that. I didn’t think that example all the way through, but my point is still a valid one. Christians did not magically appear in Europe and taint the pagans with their soiled religion. The Christians were pagans – following all the rituals and practices of their respective pagan beliefs. They simply adopted a new belief. There was no Christian religion, really. It was more of a philosophy associated with Stoicism that was attached to other religions. Think about the Catholic Church and how it resembles the pagan Roman Capitoline religion. Vestal Virgins? Are now nuns. Heroes? Are now Saints. The Capitoline Gods? Is now the Trinity? The Birth of Sol Invictis? Is now Christmas. The Pontifex Maximus? Is now the Pope. The Collegium Pontificum? Is now the Cardinals. And this didn’t happen because of invaders who stole the Roman Religion and co-opted for their own ends. This happened because the Roman religion still exists today in a continuous unbroken chain from the Roman Republic. It’s simply evolved – adding new ideas – but the religious practice itself, with typical aging and resettling is essentially the same religion that Julius Caesar was a Pontif with, in his early career. And the Roman church was the official state religion of the Roman Empire. They certainly didn’t stop promoting it when it became Christian.

Now if you’re point is to say that the Roman government was not necessarily kind to religious beliefs that it found threatening – well I don’t disagree with that, but you can’t hang that on Christians, because the Roman government had always been that way. In the third century they were tying Christians to poles and lighting them on fire to light special events. I think it’s safe to say, that whatever the Romans did to pagans after they adopted Christianity was rarely ever that bad. And in the fourth century, when Christians were tearing down Temples of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, they were doing it to a large degree because temples to this deity were lavish and expensive examples of oppression under the Roman Capitoline religion. Christianity was largely adopted by Romans as a protest against state oppression.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:18 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Zeitgeist gives a good explanation of the pagan origins of Xmas:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331

Quote:

"Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you,
O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD,
Learn not the way of the heathen.
For the customs of the people are vain:
for one cutteth a tree out of the forest,
the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
They deck it with silver and with gold;
they fasten it with nails and with hammers,
that it move not.
They are upright as the palm tree.
Every man is brutish in his knowledge.
My tabernacle is spoiled.
For the pastors are become brutish,
and have not sought the LORD:
therefore they shall not prosper,
and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Behold, the noise of the bruit is come,
and a great commotion out of the north country,
to make the cities of Judah desolate,
and a den of dragons.
Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not."
-Jeremiah 10 (King James Bible)

Jeremiah 10 Christmas Cards from the White House
http://www.cafepress.com/piratenews.39079634


Jewish Macy's dept store invented Christmas to fleece the goyim, which was illegal for most of USA's history. Macy's logo is the red star of atheistic Communism. Which is why 90% of Xmas gifts are manufactured in Commie China.

Merry Xmas.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng
Hanoi Hannity: "Outsourcing your job is good for me."
"US ports owned by Commie China is good for me."
"Dead and disabled US soldiers are good for me."
"Sir Rupert dines with Hillary every week."
"Ron Paul does not exist in my 'Verse."

"As far as Chinese goes, I resented it."
-Adam Tudyk, The Making of Firefly




FOX, MYSPACE & FIREFLY OWNED BY COMMUNIST CHINA!
www.piratenews.org/pntv-schedule.html


Does that seem right to you?
Firefly Music Video: Tangerine dream - Confrontation, Thief soundtrack
www.megavideo.com/?v=JVT35GR8
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 12:29 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


To me Christmas was being with my family and just being happy with them. Sure, there was a lot of materialism going on, but it was a great time because it was when I got to see cousins and aunts and uncles I've not seen for a long time. It was snowy outside and beautiful and we all sang christmas songs and ate turkey. My grandpa would dress up like Santa and come down the stairs and give all the grandkids a present. I miss my grandpa.

Then a bunch of fucking whiney bastards came along and bah humbuged the whole thing.

Fuck you haters. Go worship your Pagan gods or goats or your right hand fuckos.

You killed Christmas and you killed my grandpa.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Wow. This workplace sweep sure has set off the worst in you. Now you're completely irrational. De-stress some, OK ?

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:23 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Honestly, what I think killed the traditional X-ma$ are business excesses. Considering some businesses make most of their $$$ in the X-ma$ season (enough to stay open till the next year) it's not surprising that we are told to shop ! shop !! SHOP !!!! - even put ourselves into debt - to make THIS the BEST !!! X-ma$ EVER !!!!!.

And it's not like you can avoid the message, unless you have no TV, radio, newspaper or internet at home. The kids pick up on the commercials and bring the message of X-ma$ home, literally. And the parents, not wanting to be scrooges, get manipulated into a X-ma$ they neither want nor enjoy. It's also unclear to me whether or not the kids actually enjoy it, looking at the whining, fussing and generally unhappy behavior.

Some people, in an attempt to recreate the saner X-ma$es of their childhood are trying to 'return' it to a religious status is probably hasn't had for a hundred years or more. And that is generating a backlash among the non-religious.

What I see is yet another example of how rampant capitalism - sans any socially redeeming modification - is taking over every value and ethic in this society. Meanwhile the people who actually run the place - that's supposed to be us - are letting the train run over us b/c we're too bamboozled to realize we can change it.


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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 6:10 AM

MAL4PREZ


My local Home Depot had their christmas section - full sized trees and every lawn/roof decoration thingy you can imagine - set up a few weeks ago. That's what it's all about, man. That and the music. Isn't there a satellite radio station that plays all christmas music all year? How can you beat that?



-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 6:18 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You must not have kids whining at you for every little thing - which is what I see when I go to the stores this time of year. How do you screen it out ? Turn up the music ?

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"I'm singing as loud as I can."

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:01 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
How do you screen it out ? Turn up the music ?



I just don't leave the house.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:21 AM

STORYMARK


For me, Christmas is about seeing famil - and about 2 weeks off from spending my days around teenagers. I don't personally put much thought into the religious aspects of it. It means many things to many people, and I'm cool with that. I just do my best to block out the commercialism that runs rampant durring the season.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I have to avoid that aisle, fremgirl says it's the feline nature, but pretty shiny things hanging in midair to be poked at... and oooo the fiber optic trees, shiny....

She left me staring at one of those once for like 40 minutes, I prolly looked like moron, lol.

The cutest thing you ever saw is when Ghoster climbs the tree... she'll get up inside it about as far as the branches will hold her (this is a big, white, fluffy poofy cat) and then find a comfy spot and stick her little kitty face out among the pretties.

They love it cause they know... after everyone else get presents, so do they, wrapping papper and ribbon, oh my!

Just make sure to watch the kitties around ribbon however, some of em like to eat it, and this can lead to what I call a cat-floss problem.

As far as consumerism, ain't too much of it in my family line - our tradition is that getting a rock bottom bargain on what you give someone is part of the gift itself, to find just the thing someone else would have liked, on clearance ?

It's an odd tradition in this age, I guess, but it goes with the function over form mindset of the family line.

The very best gifts cannot be bought with money.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=29685

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:01 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Awesome post. I hope the girl always carries the meaning of the gift with her.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:03 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
You must not have kids whining at you for every little thing - which is what I see when I go to the stores this time of year. How do you screen it out ? Turn up the music ?

Sure, I turn up the music. I turn on roots reggie - classic Bob Marley. That blocks out the madness just right. Maybe it's because the best christmas I ever had was in Jamaica. Christmas eve on a warm sandy beach... Christmas morning on a hobie cat. I defy anyone to top that!

No, I don't have kids, so I am spared the whiney madness. But I did like it when my nephew was young. Kids make christmas day a good time, I enjoy how excited they get. (My nephew's a good kid, he didn't go overly nuts. He was just sweet.)

Yeah, without kids, the whole tree/presents thing seems just generally stupid to me. It's like Valentine's. We have to take part because we're bad people if we don't.

And cha-CHING go the registers...

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