REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Sept. 11, 2001

POSTED BY: HERO
UPDATED: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:16
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2539
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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 4:17 AM

HERO


"I will not forget this wound to our country or those who inflicted it. I will not yield; I will not rest; I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people."- President Bush, Sept. 20, 2001.




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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:12 AM

SERGEANTX


The noble false statement of a traitor.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:37 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
The noble false statement of a traitor.



"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"- Joseph Welch, June 9, 1954.

H

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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:45 AM

SUCCATASH


"A Hero Ain't Nothin But a Sandwich" - Alice Childress, 1973.



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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:54 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"



My sense of decency is what makes it impossible to sit silently while opportunistic scoundrels betray their country. Where's yours?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 8:29 AM

STORYMARK


I seem to recall a quote from a movie about "heroes" getting other people killed. Our Prez definitly qualifies by that definition (though none of the other definitions I can think of).


Here we are, 6 years later. And we've stopped looking for the man responsible. Our "leader" (I can't even type that without sneering) doesn't think he's important.


"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 8:43 AM

CRUITHNE3753


Now watch this drive...

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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:54 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Where's yours?


In Ohio.

H

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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:00 PM

SKYWALKEN


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
The noble false statement of a traitor.



To paraphrase a line from the movie Billy Madison...

"What you have written, is the most insanely idiotic thing I have ever read. At no point, in your rambling incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this board is now dumber for having read to it. I award you no respect and may God have mercy on your soul."

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Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:34 PM

STORYMARK


Funny. I thought the same thing about Hero's initial post.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:09 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Funny. I thought the same thing about Hero's initial post.


I think our brains work differently (I read that around here somewhere)...or in your case, not at all.

H

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:57 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Funny. I thought the same thing about Hero's initial post.


I think our brains work differently (I read that around here somewhere)...or in your case, not at all.

H



Project away, Zero.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:02 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Skywalken:

To paraphrase a line from the movie Billy Madison...


You know, as much as I disagree with AURaptor and Hero, at least they have a point of view, you're just here to be a jerk.



No offence.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:36 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
You know, as much as I disagree with AURaptor and Hero, at least they have a point of view, you're just here to be a jerk.


Unbiased and even handed as always Mr. Isall.

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Unbiased and even handed as always Mr. Isall.

Really BDN? I thought the crazy attacking rabbit thing may have been too over-the-top.....

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:51 AM

RUE


"I will not forget this wound to our country or those who inflicted it. I will not yield; I will not rest; I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people."- President Bush, Sept. 20, 2001.

"I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." -President Bush, March 13, 2002

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:22 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

"I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." -President Bush, March 13, 2002


HELLO! He was talking about Captain America regarding the issue where he died...
you took that TOTALLY out of context, Rue!
He's as determined to get that son-of-a-Saudi-friend-of-his as he ever was!!!

Uh-huh Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 1:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I stopped caring what the idiots who don't get the significance of what happened on 9/11/01 think or listening to what they say. They are utterly and completely irrelevent. When I watched the Naudet brother's documentary on 9/11, that's all I need to see. Ignorant, asinine claims of conspiracy and compliancy are meaningless to the reality of what happened to real people in the real world that day.

I feel sorry for folks who don't GET IT, and instead wrap themselves up in petty partisan bickering, as if that will ever amount to anything at all.

I will never forget 9/11 and never forgive those who attacked us. Never.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 1:35 PM

RUE


"I feel sorry for folks who don't GET IT, and instead wrap themselves up in petty partisan bickering, as if that will ever amount to anything at all."

Does that include Bush ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I stopped caring what the idiots who don't get the significance of what happened on 9/11/01 think or listening to what they say. They are utterly and completely irrelevent.
That's one thing we agree on. Unfortunately attacking Iraq and losing track of bin Laden falls into the "irrelevant/ counterproductive" category.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"I feel sorry for folks who don't GET IT, and instead wrap themselves up in petty partisan bickering, as if that will ever amount to anything at all."

Does that include Bush ?




Show where Bush is 'bickering', if ya can.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:39 PM

RUE


Skipped right past the "petty and partisan" di'ja ?



Oh yeah, and just outa sheer nosiness - why aren't you in the WMD thread telling us about the piles and piles of ...
***************************************************************
stuff you're really familiar with

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Skipped right past the "petty and partisan" di'ja ?





Trying to change the subject ? Didn't expect you to have an answer. Not surprised in the least.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:49 PM

RUE


No, not trying to change the topic. You decided you wanted to talk about one single word out of an entire quote - of your own words, no less. I felt compelled to bring at least some of the rest back in.

Oh, and why aren't you in the MWD thread telling us how they really are there in Iraq, in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat. We could all use a good laugh. At your expense, of course.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ummm.. Auraptor, as I recall YOU were the one who brought up "petty and partisan". Rue is merely responding to YOUR topic.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
No, not trying to change the topic. You decided you wanted to talk about one single word out of an entire quote - of your own words, no less. I felt compelled to bring at least some of the rest back in.

Oh, and why aren't you in the MWD thread telling us how they really are there in Iraq, in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat. We could all use a good laugh. At your expense, of course.




Why don't you stop this fucking bullshit and just answer the question? Oh, that's right, because you CAN'T answer the question. Bush doesn't engage in any bickering, petty , partisan or OTHERWISE.

See, this is EXACTLY what I mean. Lefties are cowards and pussies for trying to dodge and squirm out of the issue, and then when you call them on it , they hyper analyze the god damn sentence, and won't answer because I didn't add PARTISAN or PETTY. As if leaving those 2 words out in any way keeps you from answering a damn thing. It doesn't, but you'll look for any damn way out.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Ummm.. Auraptor, as I recall YOU were the one who brought up "petty and partisan". Rue is merely responding to YOUR topic.




Do you rub rue's shoulders when you're mounted on his back ?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:34 PM

PIRATENEWS

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"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, heh heh heh, just so long as I'm the dictator, heh heh heh."
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"Two words I never want to hear again in a sentence are Flash and Drive!"
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Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:11 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Lefties are cowards and pussies for trying to dodge and squirm


I thought it was cowards and pisspots.....but either way your words have a sweet ring of truth to them.

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:43 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
That's one thing we agree on. Unfortunately attacking Iraq and losing track of bin Laden falls into the "irrelevant/ counterproductive" category.


I note for the record you just described the high points of Bill Clinton's 1998 foriegn policy.

H

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:56 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:





See, this is EXACTLY what I mean. Lefties are cowards and pussies for trying to dodge and squirm out of the issue, and then when you call them on it , they hyper analyze the god damn sentence,



Wow. That's fuckin rich coming from a guy who dodges and plays semantics like a pro.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 5:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Auraptor's response? "You got boggers in your nose!" And then there's Hero's old saw.. "But HE did it too!"

When do we get to: "YOU started it!"

Sounds like kindergarten.


Tell you what- if either of you actually post something rational, I'll respond. Otherwise, I'll just treat you like I treat trolls.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:26 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Bless the fallen and their families.

OK, let’s take it where “Aur” wants to. Is someone really in here complaining about bickering?

The president:
To answer your question... NO, he doesn’t.
How can a president be involved in bickering in the public eye? He is protected by the screening of questions. The bickering goes on in cabinet/staff meetings or by the appointed Press Secretary. So, don't ask for answers you already know. Or most should anyway. ...and I expect with all the posted links and research done here, that would be an easy answer. More importantly… So, say we prove one way or the other about presidential bickering. What’s your point? He does/doesn’t bicker. OK what? Are you saying that by not participating in “petty” bickering allows time for strong leadership? Present your case. Or is it the “appearance” of a focused, stern leader that “tickles your fancy”. The “decider” has no time for bickering, only to decide.

You speak of fantasy in conspiracy. At this point, it IS fantasy to think if we pull out, they will follow us. Works on both sides. Neither has happened. My guess, (let me know if any of you have better than a guess) the bad guys are planning NOW and will plan after we are out of the region (militarily).

Bickering on the site: (on my assumption that “and instead wrap themselves up in petty partisan bickering” includes this site)

This is a public discussion forum. 80% of everything in here is a perpetual, sometimes elitist, circle jerk of grandstanding. …more to prove YOUR worth and morals than anything.

Quote:

I feel sorry for folks who don't GET IT, …, as if that will ever amount to anything at all.


Is “folks” us/you? Or are u writing/contacting our representatives now to “make a difference”. You are SO in the top ten of bickerers on this site. But, maybe u are just always right

Quote:

“They are utterly and completely irrelevant.”

Wrong, they vote. …more relevant than wind-bagged comments on any pundit show or here (including mine).

On semantics… hmmm, without nonverbal comm. Writing is all we have. Anyone interpreting your words differently does not make them a coward, even if it is clear they are manipulating them just to piss you off.

Why the rant? Occasionally an asshole, but I am neither a coward nor a pussy. Or even a pisspot.



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Thursday, September 13, 2007 12:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


See, this is EXACTLY what I mean. Lefties are cowards and pussies for trying to dodge and squirm out of the issue, and then when you call them on it , they hyper analyze the god damn sentence,



Wow. That's fuckin rich coming from a guy who



Sorry dickhead, but I've never dodged one god damn fucking thing. Funny how the Left pansies accuse me of dodging stuff while they are doing EXACTLY what they accuse me of doing.

Word - Hypocrites


And I rest my case. After this juvenile back and forth w/ the Lefty pukes, they've presented ZERO in their claim that Bush " bickers " to any extent on the issue of 9/11 one iota.

I win,

They lose.

Case closed.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:48 PM

RUE


Where does 9/11 come in ? Are you now adding words after taking them away ?

The original contention was "I feel sorry for folks who don't GET IT, and instead wrap themselves up in petty partisan bickering, as if that will ever amount to anything at all."

Nope, no 9/11 there at all, no matter how many times I read it.

Anyway, keep this up on top. I'll be back in town Monday or Tuesday and get back to you then.




***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Where does 9/11 come in ? Are you now adding words after taking them away ?

The original contention was "I feel sorry for folks who don't GET IT, and instead wrap themselves up in petty partisan bickering, as if that will ever amount to anything at all."

Nope, no 9/11 there at all, no matter how many times I read it.

Anyway, keep this up on top. I'll be back in town Monday or Tuesday and get back to you then.




Son, I never credited you with an overabundance of brains, and I have only you to thank for reminding everyone why.

My entire post, as it was written
Quote:

I stopped caring what the idiots who don't get the significance of what happened on 9/11/01 think or listening to what they say. They are utterly and completely irrelevent. When I watched the Naudet brother's documentary on 9/11, that's all I need to see. Ignorant, asinine claims of conspiracy and compliancy are meaningless to the reality of what happened to real people in the real world that day.

I feel sorry for folks who don't GET IT, and instead wrap themselves up in petty partisan bickering, as if that will ever amount to anything at all.

I will never forget 9/11 and never forgive those who attacked us. Never.




You see, idiot, this entire THREAD was about 9/11. My comment included.

Now go pray to your dear and fluffy lord for some brains. You be needin' it something powerful.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:19 PM

QUISQUEYA


"You see idiot,this entire thread was about 9/11"

AURaptor---Really? Don't see anything in your words about stepping away from politics and lava-like spewing of hatred to remember the dead. Or to think of the living, walking around wounded inside and out.

My brother has sarcoidosis. The government recently admitted this has something to do with breathing in death and vile shit month after month. He also has stopped having a normal life. Does pretty much nothing---rides his bike, washes his car, takes care of our parents because he lives with them. No job, no relationship, no interests. He got his ass on the ferry back to New Jersey that morning, wound up in Hoboken and doesn't remember how he got home to Jersey City. If you want to throw stones at him, you know, he's not the only one--broken, forever changed.

I had recently moved from New York and after falling to my knees, finding out that my brother was alive and being glued to the TV for hours, drove downtown and found a church to sit in. There's a beautiful stained glass window in the worship hall with this line from an old hymn--
"And with the dawn those angel faces smile
That I have loved long since, and lost awhile."

Could you just stop and cry if you need to? I remember thinking, during another time I needed solace, walking through a rose garden "they're all gone, we have to LIVE for them". Let's do something really worthwhile, hmm? Make it meaningful---serve humanity or something easy like that. Just don't say this thread is about 9/11.


Quisqueya

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:25 PM

RUE


Well, seeing as I'm still here at work -

One can't BE partisan about 9/11 no matter how one tries. It's like saying people are partisan about the sun coming up.

Now, one can be partisan about the CAUSE of 9/11, the RESPONSE to 9/11, all the ways 9/11 was USED - but one can't be partisan about 9/11 itself.

So this:
"I feel sorry for folks who don't GET IT, and instead wrap themselves up in petty partisan bickering, as if that will ever amount to anything at all" can't be about 9/11 per se, it HAS to be about something else, like the cause, the response, or the way it was used.

Then you add in 9/11 AS IF it's a partisan item and not merely a fact. Get it ? Though I expect not. In your mind, facts and opinions are one and the same. That's common with none too bright people, like yourself.

So keep this up top. You made a claim that Bush was NEVER petty, partisan, and never bickered. Just like this: "Bush doesn't engage in any bickering, petty , partisan or OTHERWISE". That's going to be a mighty hard claim to hold on to. Are you sure you don't want to change it just a bit ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quisqueya - Sorry, but while your story is best viewed by all, your comments would be better directed toward others, not me. I wasn't the one who started w/ this political B.S. on this board, but I did respond to it. You want to impress onto others your tale, fine. But don't make me the heavy here.


I ask them to clarify their comments, and as you can plainly see in the thread, they can't. Lava like ? Yeah, pretty much, because that's how much anger I have at folks who insist on making this about politics and not humanity. Don't fuss at me because I chose to respond. But the only hatred is coming from the likes of rue and SignyM.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


rue - you're a coward. I plainly posted my comments in context. You're simply too spineless to admit that you've got nothing but to fight for the sake of fighting. Sorry, but you've lost this one. Keep beating your head against the wall, I'm done w/ you.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 5:31 PM

RUE


Just keep this near the top on Monday/ Tuesday so I don't forget. I'll get back wit'cha.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 7:27 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Okay, a statement for the record: I haven't forgotten those responsible for 9/11.

Our duly appointed president apparently has.

If he had truly been interested in balancing accounts for 9/11 he would have properly finished the job in Afghanistan when he had the chance.

Instead he chose to attack Iraq. Which made about as much sense as avenging Pearl Harbor by declaring war on Mexico.

But George W. bush had a combination of personal and business reasons for doing so, and decided they were more important than actually honoring our dead. 9/11 was not the reason for attacking Iraq. It was the excuse.

And that is the reason I detest George W. Bush. He reduced the dead in the rubble, the victims and the brave emergency personnel who died trying to rescue them, to nothing but a slogan to support his own agenda.

So now we have a two-front, probably unwinable war, and our dead remain unavenged.

Anyone who invokes 9/11 to support Bush's policies is either a fool, a hypocrite, or willfully blind.



"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quisqueya, I'm sorry for your brother. I know what it's like to have someone close to you chronically ill. To have that occur by a random act of hate is hard to imagine. AFA Auraptor is concerned... apologizing for him seems presumptuous, but I winced when I read his post. I don't know what to say.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:54 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


VIDEO: 9/11 First Responder Heard WTC 7 Explosive Demolition Countdown
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2007/130907_demolition_countdow
n.htm




NY CITY PAVES POTHOLES WITH DEAD BODIES OF 9/11 VICTIMS
www.wtcfamiliesforproperburial.com

SIGN THE PETITION
www.petitiononline.com/WTCASHES/petition.html

FRESH KILLS LANDFILL HAS 9/11 REMAINS, MEDICAL EXAMINER WROTE
www.voicesofsept11.org/dev/content.php?idtocitems=remainstimes

9/11 REMAINS FILL POTHOLES WORKER CLAIMS
www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/03/24/2007-03-24_911_remains_fill_pothol
es_worker_claims.html



Mafia drag queen Rudy Giuliani sucks Donald Trumps tits


www.september911surprise.com

GOVT'S FLIGHT 93 MEMORIAL IS A GIANT BOXCUTTER TOMBSTONE
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/263


http://piratenews.org/flight93.html

VIDEO: Controlled Demolition Inc bombs 7,000 US govt buildings on History Channel
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8500406504731486597&hl=en


River Tam - FOR REAL

CIA MKULTRA Project Monarch female child assassin testifies to Congress
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=4
652513


CIA MKULTRA Project Monarch child sex slave testifies to Congress



Your govt loves you. Go back to sleep. Or else.



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Friday, September 14, 2007 2:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
Okay, a statement for the record: I haven't forgotten those responsible for 9/11.

Our duly appointed president apparently has.

If he had truly been interested in balancing accounts for 9/11 he would have properly finished the job in Afghanistan when he had the chance.

Instead he chose to attack Iraq. Which made about as much sense as avenging Pearl Harbor by declaring war on Mexico.

But George W. bush had a combination of personal and business reasons for doing so, and decided they were more important than actually honoring our dead. 9/11 was not the reason for attacking Iraq. It was the excuse.

And that is the reason I detest George W. Bush. He reduced the dead in the rubble, the victims and the brave emergency personnel who died trying to rescue them, to nothing but a slogan to support his own agenda.
So now we have a two-front, probably unwinable war, and our dead remain unavenged.

Anyone who invokes 9/11 to support Bush's policies is either a fool, a hypocrite, or willfully blind.



"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn



"He reduced the dead in the rubble, the victims and the brave emergency personnel who died trying to rescue them, to nothing but a slogan to support his own agenda.
So now we have a two-front, probably unwinable war, and our dead remain unavenged."


Bush did nothing of the sort. We went after OBL and al Qaeda almost immediatly after we were attacked. We took down the Taliban and captured many in the al Qaeda organization. We froze , or tried to, the assets of phony organizations used as fronts to funnel $$ for the terrorist. ( Unfortunatly, the NYTimes figured it was a better idea to out some of our secret operations ) But fighting a terrorist organization which is small and mobile isn't the same as trying to take down an established country. OBL went underground, and our lack of intel in the area cost us. It wasn't because of a lack of will or leadership, but simply not having the resources required to track our target in the wilderness. It makes less sense to highly broadcast our daily fight and search for this guy. But just because we've not caught 2 big names, we're still making life miserable for them, and keeping them on the move. Point is, don't equate our inability to get OBL as a sign we don't care, or that we're not trying. Because we do care, and we are trying.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, September 14, 2007 3:37 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Auraptor:

You're missing my point.

I didn't define "finishing the job in Afghanistan" as "capturing OBL". My definition would be "stabilizing the region, and/or establishing a viable democratic government." Granted, capturing Bin Laden would be icing on the cake, but it wasn't the primary goal.

I supported the attack on Afghanistan. They had provided aid, both financial and logistical, to the bastards responsible for 9/11. They richly deserved to be brought down.

But then GWB, for, as I stated above, "personal and business reasons" decided it was a smart idea to wage a two-front war, and diverted resources needed for the stabilization of Afghanistan to attack Iraq. Despite the fact that Iraq had precisely Jack Shit to do with 9/11. Despite the fact that OBL and the Taliban hated Saddam's guts worse than ours, and that the SOB, for all his evil, was a force for stability in the region.

Bush invoked 9/11 as a slogan to justify his dividing of our forces for no good reason except to further his own political/financial goals. And in doing so he dishonored our dead.

I'm not sure if he did this out of greed, egotism, or simple incompetence. And in the end, it doesn't matter.

If Dante was right in reserving the coldest spot in Hell for traitors, then George W. Bush has a very chilly room reserved for him indeed.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Friday, September 14, 2007 4:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But fighting a terrorist organization which is small and mobile isn't the same as trying to take down an established country. OBL went underground, and our lack of intel in the area cost us. It wasn't because of a lack of will or leadership, but simply not having the resources required to track our target in the wilderness.
Horse puckies. Bush said
Quote:

So we don't know whether he's in a cave with the door shut or a cave with the door open. We just don't know. There's all kinds of reports and all kinds of speculation. But the thing we are certain about is that he's on the run, that he's hiding in caves, if hiding at all. And the other thing I'm certain about is we'll bring him to justice.
What a blowhard. But anyway... Here is the story from the guy who led the attack on Tora Bora and had bin Laden pinned down. Gary Bernsten was a CIA officer who had tracked bin Laden through both the Clinton and Bush administrations. A Republican, he is still highly critical of the Clinton Administrations' lack of guts on taking out bin Laden. After 9-11 he made it his personal mission to bring the terrorist in.
Quote:

BERNTSEN: With Tora Bora, it began, the final portion of that operation began after we seized the capital, Kabul. I sent an eight-man team down into Jalalabad. From Jalalabad, they moved down south right up against the mountains there, where Tora Bora was back up in the mountains. ...

We had locations on him, we had human source reporting which had proved reliable throughout the war. And that is why we won the war so rapidly. We had picked up a radio off of a dead al Qaeda member and we're listening to bin Laden pray with his people, apologize to his people for bringing them in there.

I had CIA's top Arabic linguist with me, who had listened to bin Laden's for four years. We threw a 15,000-pound Blue 82 at them and then we had B52's conduct strikes on the same areas where he knew he was. ... we did know exactly.

... The Afghans were less than reliable and this is why I was calling for ground forces. And I called for, you know, 600-to-800 rangers to be inserted in there, and had 600-to-800 rangers been inserted, we probably would have ended the thing.

...I made the request in the first two or three days of December. We initiated that operation. We inserted our team in late November into Jalalabad there.

Well, I requested the rangers directly from the commander of JSOC, who was on the ground out there. And of course, their decision was not to do that. They were pleased with the fact that we were killing several hundred of them a day. The problem is this: when you are fighting terrorists, success for the terrorists is not defeating us on the battlefield, it's escaping. And I was trying to make sure that we eliminated every single one of them. And in that case, we didn't. We killed quite a large number of bin Laden's force. We killed 75 percent of the people there. He did cross the border. You may recall that 130 of them were captured by the Pakistanis on the back side of Tora Bora, but bin Laden and his element were able to escape.

...General Franks is a great American. I, however, was on the ground running the intelligence collection operation. ... The U.S. military, the soldiers that were with us on the ground there, fought like lions. They did a wonderful job. The problem was, was Tora Bora was a very, very difficult place to access. It was an area that was far away, it was high, it was cold. It would have been very difficult and it would have been risky to put soldiers in. There likely would have been significant casualties. The fact is is no one, whether they're in the CIA or the military gets ahead taking risks. It would have been a risky endeavor. But I put my four men in there. They went up. And actually two of my men were CIA officers and two of them were JSOC officers that had been assigned over to me. This is a fact of the war.


www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10639901/


Also
Quote:

A vivid reminder of how true Berntsen’s story must be are the numerous blacked-out lines. He of course had to submit his manuscript to CIA for review and censoring the most sensitive information. He was surprised and angered when they dragged their feet on it for several months. Eventually he had to sue his former employer to force them to release his manuscript back to him. The amount of blacked-out information the CIA finally required was so astounding that Berntsen chose to leave in the blacked-out lines rather than edit the book down. It is amazing to just flip through the book pages and visibly see all the black lines going by. Obviously, Berntsen was privy to incredibly detailed inside information about the hunt for Osama Bin Laden.... When Bin Laden was pinned down and taking several days of fire in Tora Bora, suddenly Berntsen could not get the 800 Army Rangers he requested to be dropped in between Al-Qaeda and the Pakistan border. This single maneuver would have prevented Bin Laden from escaping, and would likely have ended the War on Terror right there.

Every other request Bentsen made was either granted or at least decided quickly, as in minutes or hours. Berntsen had to ask and plead for several days for a decision on his Ranger request. When Berntsen pressed harder, he was shockingly replaced in the field and in the middle of the Tora Bora battle!


I know its a long post, but this man's viewpoint deserves to be heard.


Now, I personally don't think that capturing bin Laden would have ended the so-called "War on Terror". It's kind of like the "War on Poverty- you don't end poverty by killing the poor. There is a huge difference between fighting terrorists and fighting terrorism. In order to make permanent progress you have to change to conditions that breed terrorism in addition to weeding out the terrorists. But Bush's stated mission- YOU know, dead or alive. drain the swamp, etc- would have been accomplished.

And how does Bush feel about bin Laden now? Well, he doesn't think about him much. He's not that important.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, September 14, 2007 4:20 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:

If Dante was right in reserving the coldest spot in Hell for traitors, then George W. Bush has a very chilly room reserved for him indeed.



Question is, will Big D let Bush wear the red cape AU is makin' for him?

Chrisisall



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Friday, September 14, 2007 4:27 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But Bush's stated mission- YOU know, dead or alive. drain the swamp, etc- would have been accomplished.


I can only conclude that Bin Laden is worth more as a constant threat than a dead body...to some.......

Chrisisall



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Friday, September 14, 2007 9:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I guess there's nothing like on-the-ground facts to kill a thread.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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