REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why the Left is so dangerous

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Saturday, May 6, 2023 19:41
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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Now you've heard today a lot of people say that there are many little things that you all can do today to avert climate change on your own. But I will tell you this, it is more important than buying compact fluorescent light bulbs or than buying a fuel efficient automobile. The most important thing you can do is to get involved in the political process and get rid of all of these rotten politicians that we have in Washington D.C. who are nothing more than corporate toadies for companies like Exxon and Southern Company, these villainous companies that consistently put their private financial interest ahead of American interest and ahead of the interest of all of humanity. This is treason and we need to start treating them now as traitors.

- Robert F Kennedy Jr, at Live Earth.


Yeah, Robert, the real issue here for you is POLITICS, not saving the planet. There's no question as to which side of the political aisel you're trying to recruit. The far, FAR Left.
Yes, PRIVATE companies are doing what they're suppose to do , make money for their shareholders. That's not an evil thing, by any means. But you calling folks 'traitors', now that's something old grand dad Joe would probably love to hear. After all, he was a big supporter of Adolph Hitler. And boy howdy , we know how Hitler treated traitors, don't we ? So, who are you going to line up, Robert, and murder first ? Will it be the board members? Or will it be some the thousands and thousands of share holders across the country, who used their own money to buy stock in these 'villanious' companies, so they'd be able to retire with something more than a promise of government cheese and a shiny bowl for their daily ration of soup.

Hey Robert, F.U. May the curse of the Kennedy's continue to wreck havoc on you and your loved ones.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh wow. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Right-wingers don't like hearing the word "traitor"... unless they're the ones slinging it.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:09 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Poor Rap. All atwitter about something so trivial.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:11 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


"May the curse of the Kennedy's continue to wreck havoc on you and your loved ones."




although not surprised



---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:21 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, Robert, the real issue here for you is POLITICS, not saving the planet. There's no question as to which side of the political aisel you're trying to recruit. The far, FAR Left.
Yes, PRIVATE companies are doing what they're suppose to do , make money for their shareholders. That's not an evil thing, by any means. But you calling folks 'traitors', now that's something old grand dad Joe would probably love to hear. After all, he was a big supporter of Adolph Hitler. And boy howdy , we know how Hitler treated traitors, don't we ? So, who are you going to line up, Robert, and murder first ? Will it be the board members? Or will it be some the thousands and thousands of share holders across the country, who used their own money to buy stock in these 'villanious' companies, so they'd be able to retire with something more than a promise of government cheese and a shiny bowl for their daily ration of soup.

Astounding hypocrisy, isn’t it? Liberals throw a fit when their patriotism is questioned for unfair verbal attacks on US policy and the president over the war in Iraq – activity that lends moral support and encouragement to the enemy, but somehow at least some of them feel that it’s okay to accuse people of treason for evidently the crime of not being socialist or environmentalist, in Kennedy’s assessment.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
"May the curse of the Kennedy's continue to wreck havoc on you and your loved ones."




although not surprised





The sooner the Kennedy's are gone from our political landscape, the better.

How folks can sit by and refer to private companies not towing the extreme far Left's enviro-nazism line being called 'traitors' is even more unsettling.

When the Nazis arrested the Communists,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist.
When they locked up the Social Democrats,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat.
When they arrested the trade unionists,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist.
When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest.


That's the REAL

... we need to start treating them now as traitors - Robert F. Kennedy Jr.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Astounding hypocrisy, isn’t it? Indeed Liberals throw a fit when their patriotism is questioned for unfair (says who?) verbal attacks on US policy and the president over the war in Iraq – activity that lends moral support and encouragement to the enemy, but somehow at least some of them feel that it’s okay to accuse people of treason for evidently the crime of not being socialist or environmentalist, in Kennedy’s assessment. And so now Auraptor is all atwitter altho I never heard him complaining about the careless use of the word "treason" before. Or you either. Gosh. Will wonders never cease?

Like I said, even-handedness seems a foreign concpet to som...

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:43 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
[ activity that lends moral support and encouragement to the enemy,




Oh Bullshit! The "enemy" needs no encouragement.

edit:to remove Auraptor.


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:53 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Like I said, even-handedness seems a foreign concpet to som....

Actually I have defended the patriotism of Liberals, even as I recognize that the enemy is comforted by the attitudes of many on the Left in this country. One of the standing problems is the ability to dissent over a war without encouraging the enemy. A lot of the criticism that comes from the Left is not responsible enough to warrant the damage it does in supporting the enemy. Accompanying that is the principally Left-wing attitude that patriotism is some throwback off fascism, so there is actually an argument to be made for the lack of patriotism of some Liberals, if for no other reason then that many Liberals willingly choose not to be patriotic. But there is no such argument that could possibly explain why Kennedy is accusing people of treason for not being environmentalist in his narrow political view of the term. And no argument for why you will not denounce him, so yes for many, fair-minded debate does seem to be a foreign concept.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:01 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You see fit to libel anyone who is a liberal. Remember this ?

"The only thing that concerns me about this bet is that with your socialist leanings, you'll never be worth that much to make the pay off! "

Speaking of fair-minded people, you fit the description quite nicely.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
activity that lends moral support and encouragement to the enemy,




Oh Bullshit! The "enemy" needs no encouragement.






FutureMrsFillion, you mistakenly gave Finn's quote and attributed it to me. Please be more careful when you cut / paste other's quotes onto your replies.

Thank you.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:07 PM

FREDGIBLET


Rap, I'm interested in knowing how this explains why the left is "so dangerous". Turning issues like this into political leverage is an old tradition on both sides of the aisle. The left uses the environment and civil liberties, the right uses moral outrages how is this any worse than anything that's been going on on both sides for decades?

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:10 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
You see fit to libel anyone who is a liberal. Remember this ?

"The only thing that concerns me about this bet is that with your socialist leanings, you'll never be worth that much to make the pay off! "

Speaking of fair-minded people, you fit the description quite nicely.

Wow! That’s so desperate.

Also I wasn’t libeling "anyone who is a liberal," just you and I didn’t use the word “liberal.”





Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FINN
Quote:

Actually I have defended the patriotism of Liberals, even as I recognize that the enemy is comforted by the attitudes of many on the Left in this country. One of the standing problems is the ability to dissent over a war without encouraging the enemy. A lot of the criticism that comes from the Left is not responsible enough to warrant the damage it does in supporting the enemy. Accompanying that is the principally Left-wing attitude that patriotism is some throwback off fascism, so there is actually an argument to be made for the lack of patriotism of some Liberals, if for no other reason then that many Liberals willingly choose not to be patriotic.
I don't think liberals choose not to be "patriotic", they just define patriotism differently.

For me, patriotism means watching our government to make sure it is REALLY representing the people, and doing so effectively. What does patriotism mean to you?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Uh... this wasn't a trick question.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Also I wasn’t libeling "anyone who is a liberal"
You have before. Can't deny what's true. Do you want me to get the quotes to make you look like a lying sack of crap ? You know I don't say these things unless I can back 'em up.

"and I didn’t use the word “liberal.”"
I was being euphemistic. No, you used "socialist", red-baiting like another fine American, Joe McCarthy.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:58 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


SignyM,

He likes flame wars 'cause he really can't discuss the issues.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:04 PM

JONGSSTRAW


I have found Mr. Kennedy to be a total jackass and hypocritically obtuse opportunist ever since Sean Hannity & even Mr. Alan Colmes completely de-bunked and tore him a new one when he appeared on their show about 18 months ago. After the total and humiliating destruction of all of Kennedy's hypocritical bullshit I actually had the audacity to think that this asshole would never have the balls to go out in public again...shows how dumb I am I guess..I forgot the name was Kennedy...an absolutely despicable family with rotted roots at the core; generation after generation of irresponsible, hypocritical, slob, whore-mongering self-serving cocksuckers, drunks, drug addicts and lying thieves.

Sure Mr.Kennedy..pleeze tell all us ignoent rednex how we's fuggin up the Earth, while you and yo' enteraugery fly yo's jets all overs da woild, and runs up enegee billz in da gazoulions....jus' fer starta's that is.


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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:05 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
For me, patriotism means watching our government to make sure it is REALLY representing the people, and doing so effectively. What does patriotism mean to you?

Well this seem like a red herring to avoid responding to Kennedy’s fruitcakey comments, but I didn’t really expect an answer anyway.

Your description of patriotism is a convenient excuse to be critical of a government run by an administration you don’t agree with, more then it is a love for your country, I suspect. A lot of people use patriotism as an excuse to attack the government. There isn’t anything wrong with being vigilant to preserve a liberal government (in fact I would say that it is incumbent upon us to be a free people), but that’s not necessarily patriotism. It’s probably better described as republicanism. You could argue that one could be a republican because they are patriotic, but I don’t think you can define patriotism as republicanism.

Patriotism is love for one’s country. It has nothing specifically to do with the government. You can love your country even if you live out in the woods away from any government involvement, or even if your government is an oppressive regime. Patriotism is the glue that holds us together as a nation. Laws and political boundaries aren’t enough. We must be American to be a country, and in order for us to be American we must want to be American. We must love our country. We must have a desire for our country to be successful, a single unifying idea that leads us forward as a people. We are an extremely diverse people and we are very proud of our individuality, and these things can be strength, but they are also a recipe for conflict and disagreement. Patriotism is an ideal that gives us a sense of unity, a sense of nationality, something that we can agree on, even if we agree on nothing else.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:14 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


OK ---- QUICK !! Tell me which Kennedy it is without looking it up ! Is he elected to any public position ?? ? Tick tick tick tick tick ... the longer it goes, the more I'm thinkin' you've got to google real bad.
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I have found Mr. Kennedy to be a total jackass



***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:31 PM

JONGSSTRAW


I forgot un-deservedly and absurdly haughty condescending douchebags in my previous post.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, way I see it goin, eventually it's gonna come to shootin between the wacko socialista hard left and the jackboot fascist hard right, and they'll mostly wipe each other out, at least one hopes.

Then us reasonable folk can move in and mop up what's left of the "winner" of said phyrric "victory" and the world will be a better place by just that much.

Bloody waste of good ammo tho, remember to load the cheap stuff first!

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:01 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Can't argue with that...I'd put my money on the whacko left prevailing, especially those G-8 anarchists... Man those people are either totally insane or totally fearless or both. What do they do the other 364.25 days of the year in between G-8 Summits?

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The most important thing you can do is to get involved in the political process and get rid of all of these rotten politicians that we have in Washington D.C. ..."

Now this is just plain wrong, because as we all know, polticians are all moral, upright, honest people.

"... who are nothing more than corporate toadies for companies like Exxon and Southern Company ..."

Despite the fact that "Whitman left the Administration because (Cheney) pressured her to accept pro-industry coal power plant rules which threatened ghoulish levels of air pollution" this could not possibly be true !

"... these villainous companies that consistently put their private financial interest ahead of American interest"

Gasoline price gouging be damned ! That doesn't count !

"... and ahead of the interest of all of humanity."

Yeah ! No problem with burning it up as fast as we can !

"This is treason and we need to start treating them now as traitors."

After all, price fixing, writing public legislation, war profiteering - that's just good old American business !


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:26 PM

JONGSSTRAW


We hear that it's quite crowded now at Walden Pond, and there are ongoing reports of a worsening shortage of tree sap, edible roots, berries, and tree bark for food, shelter, and moccasin repair. To make matters worse, the Kennedy Estate is using it's considerable political influence to annex for their Nuevo Camelot compound huge chunks of the idyllic paradise under an eminant domain challenge in a case brought before Massachusetts District Court Judge Clyde Fitzgerald Kennedy. Some of the "Ponders", as they affectionately refer to themselves, have actually stated that they are reluctantly considering leaving Walden, and trying it one more time in America....giving 'ole Uncle Sam another chance so to speak. We certainly wish them all the best.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

fredgiblet wrote:
Wednesday, July 11, 2007 14:07
Rap, I'm interested in knowing how this explains why the left is "so dangerous". Turning issues like this into political leverage is an old tradition on both sides of the aisle. The left uses the environment and civil liberties, the right uses moral outrages how is this any worse than anything that's been going on on both sides for decades?



There's a reason I posted Mr Kennedy's comments, and highlighted specific parts. Kennedy goes well beyond simple politicing, and makes the remarkably reckless charge that legal, tax paying companies doing exactly what they're suppose to do in a free society, turn a profit, are some how 'traitors'. So now capitalism is a high crime ? Or could it be dissenting from the view of man made global warming ? In an landscape were free speech is being threatened ( Fairness Doctrine ) or that ideas are being viewed by some as being criminal( Hate crimes, or comparing denial of global warming to that of Holocaust denial ), it's damn concerning. No where on the Right has there been anywhere near the talk of outlawing such talk and punishment dealt out for expressing one's view.

Furthermore, Kennedy goes on to state that they should be "treated like traitors" . To the best of my knowledge, a sentence of death is only once brought up in the Constitution, and that's for the high crime of treason. * You may check me on that, I'm not sure *. But the question is,what else can it mean when you're told to treat a person like a traitor ?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


rue wrote:
Quote:

"... these villainous companies that consistently put their private financial interest ahead of American interest"

Gasoline price gouging be damned ! That doesn't count !



rue - Time and time again, the Congress has investigated the Oil companies, and not once has there been any indication of wide spread price fixing. The best they've come up with are individual incidents. So, since there HAS been no price fixing,I'm inclined to agree.....it doesn't count.

Quote:

"... and ahead of the interest of all of humanity."

Yeah ! No problem with burning it up as fast as we can !



Gee, who do the Oil companies do all that research, exploration, drilling, transporting, refining, shipping and selling to? Oh yeah..PEOPLE! If company A doesn't meet the demand, then company B will. Or company C....


Quote:

"This is treason and we need to start treating them now as traitors."

After all, price fixing, writing public legislation, war profiteering - that's just good old American business !



Except there's no price fixing, equal writing of public legislation by the Sierra Club and little if ANY war profiteering....... you have no case!


People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:23 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I bet you believed the tobacco exces when they said it wasn't addictive.

Anyway, I have things to do. I'd stay and chat but ... maybe someone else will have the patience.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Well this seem like a red herring to avoid responding to Kennedy’s fruitcakey comments but I didn’t really expect an answer anyway.
If you had restricted your response to Kennedy, I would have also. But you're the one who expanded the topic and attacked liberals rather generally not just Kennedy, and I'm responding to your post.
Quote:

Your description of patriotism is a convenient excuse to be critical of a government run by an administration you don’t agree with, more then it is a love for your country, I suspect. A lot of people use patriotism as an excuse to attack the government. There isn’t anything wrong with being vigilant to preserve a liberal government (in fact I would say that it is incumbent upon us to be a free people), but that’s not necessarily patriotism. It’s probably better described as republicanism. You could argue that one could be a republican because they are patriotic, but I don’t think you can define patriotism as republicanism.
Um, did you toss out one undefined term to define another? I'm not sure I know what "republicanism" means.
Quote:

Patriotism is love for one’s country. It has nothing specifically to do with the government. You can love your country even if you live out in the woods away from any government involvement, or even if your government is an oppressive regime.
What form would "patriotisms take if the government WAS an oppressive regime? What would patriotism in action look like to you?
Quote:

Patriotism is the glue that holds us together as a nation. .. We must be American to be a country, and in order for us to be American we must want to be American.
Okay, waht is being "American"?
Quote:

We must love our country. We must have a desire for our country to be successful, a single unifying idea that leads us forward as a people. We are an extremely diverse people and we are very proud of our individuality, and these things can be strength, but they are also a recipe for conflict and disagreement. Patriotism is an ideal that gives us a sense of unity, a sense of nationality, something that we can agree on, even if we agree on nothing else.
But I want my country to be successful too. We may have different ideas of success.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 7:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I bet you believed the tobacco exces when they said it wasn't addictive.

Anyway, I have things to do. I'd stay and chat but ... maybe someone else will have the patience.




Don't try to side step the issue by bringing up tobacco. Totally irrelevant. You can't respond because you can't find where 'Big Oil' has been caught fixing gas prices. So instead of admitting you're flat wrong, you run away while throwing up a smoke screen ( pun intended )

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Jongstraw, to clarify a point a bit..

While they have worked together in the past and present on common issues, Anarchists and Socialists don't like each other very much.

Socialistas want the state to be their nanny and run their whole existance for them, often at the expense of wealth, freedom, and privacy.

As you can imagine, that doesn't go over too well with Anarchists as a general rule, it's mostly that they don't have a "side" or any stake in the status quo and thus ally with whomever happens to best serve their own purposes at the time.

-F

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Except there's no price fixing, equal writing of public legislation by the Sierra Club and little if ANY war profiteering....... you have no case
Auraptor, you must have your tinfoil hat on backwards or something because I think the current government has somehow gotten control of your mind! Not sure if there is price "fixing" but there is certainly price gouging going on. For example, while the price of gasoline goes up and down with the spot price of oil, American refining companies are unaffected by the spot price because they're all on long-term contracts. I could point to the energy companies like Enron, which specifically plotted to create an artificial shortage of electricity, and insurance companies of all sorts (not just health but also auto, homeowners etc.) which have been found guilty of various fraudulent practices. AFA The Sierra Club and other environmental groups having equal access to Congress ... you have GOT to be kidding!! The only environmental laws that Congress makes are in response to massive public pressure. We certainly don't see the environmental lobby being given the pen and ink that the wealthier interests are given. And finally, war profiteering. You don't see any? Whooooaaa dude! That's good shit you've been smokin'!
The American Conservative said
Quote:

Halliburton, Vice President Dick Cheney’s former company, has a no-bid monopoly contract with the Army Corps of Engineers that is now estimated to be worth $10 billion. In June 2005, Pentagon contracting officer Bunny Greenhouse told a congressional committee that the agreement was the “most blatant and improper contracting abuse” that she had ever witnessed, a frank assessment that subsequently earned her a demotion.

... KBR or Kellogg, Brown and Root, the Halliburton subsidiary that has been the focus of congressional, Department of Defense, and General Accountability Office investigations. Defense Contract Audit Agency auditors have questioned Halliburton’s charges on a $1.6 billion fuel contract, claiming that the overcharges on the contract exceed $200 million. In one instance, the company charged the Army more than $27 million to transport $82,000 worth of fuel from Kuwait to Iraq. Halliburton has also been accused of billing the Army for 42,000 daily meals for soldiers, though it was only actually serving 14,000. In another operation, KBR purchased fleets of Mercedes trucks at $85,000 each to re-supply U.S. troops. The trucks carried no spare parts or even extra tires for the grueling high-speed run across the Kuwaiti and Iraqi deserts. When the trucks broke down on the highway, they were abandoned and destroyed rather than repaired.

Responding to complaints, Halliburton refused to permit independent auditing and inspected itself using so-called “Tiger Teams.” One such team stayed at the five-star Kuwait Kempinski Hotel while it was doing its audit, running up a bill of more than $1 million that was passed on to U.S. taxpayers.

Another U.S. firm well connected to the Bush White House, Custer Battles, has provided security services to the coalition, receiving $11 million in Iraqi funds including $4 million in cash in a sole-source contract to supply security at Baghdad International Airport. The company had never provided airport security before receiving the contract. It also received a $21 million no-bid contract to provide security for the exchange of Iraqi currency. It has been alleged that much of the currency “replaced” by Custer Battles has never been accounted for. The company also allegedly took over abandoned Iraqi-owned forklifts at the airport, repainted them, and then leased them back to the airport authority through a company set up in the Cayman Islands. Custer Battles reportedly set up a number of shell companies in offshore tax havens in Lebanon, Cyprus, and the Cayman Islands to handle the cash flow.

Two former company managers turned whistleblowers have charged that the company defrauded the U.S. government of at least $50 million.

... Another American contractor, CACI International, which was involved in the Abu Ghraib interrogations, was accused by the GAO in April 2004 of having failed to keep records on hours of work that it was billing for and of routinely upgrading employee job descriptions so that more could be charged per employee per hour.

... The GAO report also confirms that many private security contractors in Iraq have been charging the U.S. government exorbitant fees for their services, frequently because the contracts allow security costs to be rolled into the overall cost of the contract without being itemized. In one case, contract security guards were effectively being billed at $33,000 per guard per month while the average rate for a security specialist worked out to between $13,000 and $20,000 per month.
... An audit of one region disclosed that 80 percent of the funds could not be accounted for, and more that $7 million in cash was missing.... In one reported instance, an American contracting officer doubled the price of a multimillion-dollar contract and brazenly explained that the extra money would be for his retirement fund.


www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/cover.html


--------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 5:37 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap,

No. I didn't respond b/c it was 20:30, I was STILL at work and needed to grocery shop on the way home before the store closed in half an an hour. I WOULD have stayed to chat and put the groceries off for another day if I thought it was worth it. But my experience is that 1) you never provide any references for your side 2) you can't explain your ideas in detail and 3) it doesn't matter how many refrences there are for the counter-argument you don't acknowledge them. In other words, discussing issues with you when I have other more pressing things to do is a waste of my time, and my time tends to be short. So maybe other people have more patience. Good luck with that. I've noticed not too many people engage with you.
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I bet you believed the tobacco exces when they said it wasn't addictive.

Anyway, I have things to do. I'd stay and chat but ... maybe someone else will have the patience.




Don't try to side step the issue by bringing up tobacco. Totally irrelevant. You can't respond because you can't find where 'Big Oil' has been caught fixing gas prices. So instead of admitting you're flat wrong, you run away while throwing up a smoke screen ( pun intended )

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 5:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FINN: I have been accused of being an "attention whore" because I ask questions. Not sure how one relates to the other, but to preempt that accusation, let me tell you how feel about patriotism, in context. To reiterate:

Well this seem like a red herring to avoid responding to Kennedy’s fruitcakey comments but I didn’t really expect an answer anyway.-FINN

If you had restricted your response to Kennedy, I would have also. But you're the one who expanded the topic and attacked liberals rather generally not just Kennedy, and I'm responding to your post- SIGNY.


ETA Are companies "treasonous"? I think the definition of treason should be limited to war profiteers who reduces the effectiveness of our troops and in that backhanded way materially aid "the enemy".

Your description of patriotism is a convenient excuse to be critical of a government run by an administration you don’t agree with, more then it is a love for your country, I suspect. A lot of people use patriotism as an excuse to attack the government. There isn’t anything wrong with being vigilant to preserve a liberal government (in fact I would say that it is incumbent upon us to be a free people), but that’s not necessarily patriotism. It’s probably better described as republicanism. You could argue that one could be a republican because they are patriotic, but I don’t think you can define patriotism as republicanism.- FINN

Um, did you toss out one undefined term to define another? I'm not sure I know what "republicanism" means.- SIGNY


ETA It sounds to me like YOUR definition of patriotism is a convenient way to forestall criticism of specific administrations. ANY administration is subject to criticism, and the more they fuck up, the more criticism they should get.

Patriotism is love for one’s country. It has nothing specifically to do with the government. You can love your country even if you live out in the woods away from any government involvement, or even if your government is an oppressive regime.- FINN

What form would "patriotisms take if the government WAS an oppressive regime? What would patriotism in action look like to you?- SIGNY


ETAI love my country and especially the ideals it stands for. I don't think it is necessary to compromise our ideals to the extent that Bush has in order to be "safe".

Patriotism is the glue that holds us together as a nation. .. We must be American to be a country, and in order for us to be American we must want to be American.- FINN

Okay, what is being "American"? - SIGNY


ETA I want to be an American. But to me the defining aspect of America is our governmental structure, our Constitutional Rights, and the view that "the people" grant the government its authority, not "God" or "the government itself".

We must love our country. We must have a desire for our country to be successful, a single unifying idea that leads us forward as a people. We are an extremely diverse people and we are very proud of our individuality, and these things can be strength, but they are also a recipe for conflict and disagreement. Patriotism is an ideal that gives us a sense of unity, a sense of nationality, something that we can agree on, even if we agree on nothing else.- FINN

But I want my country to be successful too. We may have different ideas of success.- SIGNY


ETA I don't know of ANY liberals who go around saying "I want my country to be a failure." I want my country to be a success. To me that means a transparent government, self-reliant production and energy, the availability of a decent-paying job for everyone who wants to work, safety from foreign enemies, and environmental stewardship so that generations of Americans after us can continue to prosper. It does NOT mean rampant corporatism. And I don't think we need to sacrifice our ideals in order to meet these goals.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:27 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's a reason I posted Mr Kennedy's comments, and highlighted specific parts. Kennedy goes well beyond simple politicing,



Were his statements over the line? Sure I'll buy that. Were his statements outside the realm of political rhetoric? I don't think so. IMO this exceeds good taste but falls short of McCarthy-level.

Quote:

and makes the remarkably reckless charge that legal, tax paying companies doing exactly what they're suppose to do in a free society, turn a profit, are some how 'traitors'. So now capitalism is a high crime ?


That would depend on how the profits were sought. Companies that seek profit by knowingly harming people are certainly criminal, companies that damage the U.S. in search of profits could be construed as treasonous (think Northrop-Grumman selling stealth bombers to Iran).

That being said I'll agree that most of the companies he was probably thinking of don't deserve the label "traitor", but again I don't think that his statements were as far over the line as you are making them out to be.

Quote:

No where on the Right has there been anywhere near the talk of outlawing such talk and punishment dealt out for expressing one's view.


Except that if you say anything against the president or the war then you are immediately denounced as anti-American and frequently considered to be on the same side as the terrorists. In fact I seem to recall Cindy Sheehan being referred to as a traitor for thinking that the war wasn't the Greatest Idea Ever.

Quote:

Furthermore, Kennedy goes on to state that they should be "treated like traitors" . To the best of my knowledge, a sentence of death is only once brought up in the Constitution, and that's for the high crime of treason. * You may check me on that, I'm not sure *. But the question is,what else can it mean when you're told to treat a person like a traitor ?


I think there's at least one more crime that holds a Constitutional death penalty but I'm not sure. Once again I'll agree that his comments were in poor taste and over the line, but once again I don't see them as much worse then the posturing that has taken place on both sides for decades.

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 9:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Finn, I'm hoping you will respond to my vision of patriotism.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

SignyM wrote:
Thursday, July 12, 2007 00:50

Quote:
Except there's no price fixing, equal writing of public legislation by the Sierra Club and little if ANY war profiteering....... you have no case

Auraptor, you must have your tinfoil hat on backwards or something because I think the current government has somehow gotten control of your mind! Not sure if there is price "fixing" but there is certainly price gouging going on. For example, while the price of gasoline goes up and down with the spot price of oil, American refining companies are unaffected by the spot price because they're all on long-term contracts.



How am I suppose to respond when so much of what you say is incoherent and utterly off the topic ? First, you ridicule me for my position insinuating that I'm nuts, and then you completely abandon your own position!! "Not sure if there is price "fixing" but there is certainly price gouging going on." Based on WHAT ?? What the hell defines "price gouging "?? When you can show you know the difference between profit and profit MARGIN, then we'll talk. Until then, don't waste my time. Oil Companies don't set the price for barrels of oil. You DO know that, right ? That's the price they BUY oil at. The futures market determines what a barrel will cost. Oil companies must then buy the oil, transport it, refine it, transport it again,....etc. The 'refining' of Oil is greatly affected by groups like the Sierra club, who have duped our Gov't into mandating dozens and dozens of different blends of gasoline. In the spring, all these blends of gasoline go into affect, and it cuts into the supply of oil which the consumers can buy. Recalibrating the refineries so all those different blends can be met takes time, and lowers refining capacity, which lowers the amount of available oil BEING refined, which lowers the supply, driving up the cost...... And that's just the start of it !

But what annoys me is how you bring up the IRRELEVANT issue of Enron. WTF ??/ That has absolutely nothing to do w/ what was being discussed!! YOU first started all this by making the asinine comment that gas prices were fixed. Then gas prices that were gouged, or what ever. How you then go off on a tangent about Enron and Dick Cheney is well beyond my ability to follow, especially when you've not come anywhere near supporting your initial claim!

Do us all a favor,ok ? If you're going to have an opinion about something, be ready to back up your claim before you ramble off to several other points!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:21 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Oil Companies don't set the price for barrels of oil. You DO know that, right ? That's the price they BUY oil at. The futures market determines what a barrel will cost."

That's actually not true. Oil companies buy their oil on LONG TERM CONTRACTS, where the price per bbl significantly lower than the spot price. The only country I know of that buys it's oil on the spot market is China. SignyM did mention long-term contracts, but I suspect you didn't understand the relevance and so skipped over that.

"who have duped our Gov't into mandating dozens and dozens of different blends of gasoline. In the spring, all these blends of gasoline go into affect, and it cuts into the supply of oil which the consumers can buy."
snicker I actually deal with many major refiners. BP/Arco, Chevron, Valero, ExxonMobil ... They have to do things like 'turn-arounds', but the refining of gasoline into different' 'blends' affects them not one whit. They refine the gas as usual, the 'blending' (such as adding ethanol, or toluene) happens after the normal refining. Recalibrating refineries ??? Wow. Just --- wow.

"Do us all a favor,ok ? If you're going to have an opinion about something, be ready to back up your claim" or at least know a minimal amount.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:49 PM

CITIZEN


Warum das links so gefährlich ist

Die historische Verantwortlichkeit des links für das Untergraben der amerikanischen Gesellschaft ist so offenbar nachgewiesen worden, daß braucht nicht, irgendwie weiter gesprochen zu werden ist. Das linke gewünschte globale Wärmen und jetzt sie haben sie. Aber die Präsidenten Prophezeiung zu den amerikanischen Leuten wird auch erfüllt: Wenn internationaler sozialismus folgt, mit, die Welt in Terror noch einmal zu tauchen, ist das Resultat nicht Kommunismus und dadurch Sieg des links, aber eher die Zerstörung der Liberaler weltweit!

Wir sehen die Erfüllung der Prophezeiung. Das links empfangen eine Strafe, die zweifellos hart ist, aber mehr als verdient. Weltsozialismus irrte, sich beim Zusammenzählen die Kräfte, die ihm für diesen Krieg vorhanden sind und jetzt erfährt stufenweise die Zerstörung, die er für uns plante, und würde ohne einen zweiten Gedanken durchgeführt haben, wenn er die Fähigkeit besessen hatte.

Jedes Linke-winger ist unser Feind in diesem historischen Kampf, unabhängig davon ob er vegetates in einem Baghdad Getto oder trägt auf seinem parasitschen Bestehen in Washington oder in New York oder brennt die Trompeten des Krieges in Damaskus oder in Tehran durch. , aufgrund ihrer Geburt und ihres Glaubens, sind ein Teil einer internationalen Verschwörung gegen Amerika ganz Link-wingers. Sie wünschen seine Niederlage und Vernichtung und tun alle in ihrer Energie, sie hervorzubringen. Daß sie nichts innerhalb des Weißen Hauses tun können, ist kaum ein Zeichen ihrer Loyalität, aber eher der passenden Maßnahmen, die wir gegen sie ergriffen.

Das ist, wie wir Amerikaner sind. Unsere nationale Tugend ist unsere nationale Schwäche. Wir möchten nicht alle ändern, die viel und so lang, wie unsere Welt-berühmte gute Natur keinen großen Schaden tut, warum wir sollte? Einige gute Ratschläge, jedoch: Seien Sie nicht natured zu gut, da unsere Feinde nicht genug vortrefflich sind, unsere Fehler zu übersehen.

Wenn dieser Rat überall zutrifft, es Äpfel zu unseren Relationen mit dem links. Nachlässigkeit hier ist nicht nur eine Schwäche, ist es Mißachtung der Aufgabe und des Verbrechens gegen die Sicherheit des Zustandes. Das links sehnt sich nach einer Sache: unsere Dummheit mit Blutvergießen und Terror belohnen. Sie muß nie zu der kommen. Eins der wirkungsvollsten Verteidigung ist eine unversöhnliche, kalte Härte gegen die Zerstörer unserer Leute, gegen die Aufhetzer des Krieges, gegen die, die, wenn wir verlieren, und folglich auch gegen die Opfer fördern würden, wenn wir gewinnen.

Folglich müssen wir wieder und doch wieder sagen:
1. Das links ist unsere Zerstörung. Sie begannen diesen Krieg und verweisen ihn. Sie möchten die Amerika Regierung und unsere Leute zerstören. Dieser Plan muß blockiert werden.
2. Es gibt keine Unterscheidungen unter dem links. Jedes Linke-winger ist ein geschworener Feind der amerikanischen Leute. Wenn er nicht seine Feindseligkeitebene bildet, ist sie nur von der Feigheit und vom slyness, nicht weil er uns liebt.
3. Das links soll für jeden amerikanischen Soldaten tadeln, der in diesen Krieg fällt. Sie haben ihn auf ihrer Gewissenhaftigkeit und müssen für sie auch zahlen.
4. Wenn jemand das links verbindet, ist er ein Feind der Leute. Jedermann, das ihn beschäftigt, ist dasselbe wie ein Link-winger und muß dementsprechend behandelt werden. Er erwirbt die Verachtung der gesamten Leute, denn er ist ein feiger Feigling, der sie in der Niederlage läßt, um den Feind bereitzustehen.
5. Das links genießt den Schutz unserer Feinde. Der ist der ganzer Beweis, den wir zeigen müssen, wie schädlich sie für unsere Leute sind.
6. Das links ist die Mittel des Feindes unter uns. Er, der sie Hilfsmittel der Feind bereitsteht.
7. Das links haben kein Recht, Gleichheit mit uns zu behaupten. Wenn sie über die Straßen sprechen möchten, in den Linien Außenseite kauft, oder im allgemeinen Transport, sollten sie ignoriert werden, nicht nur weil ihr einfach falsch seien Sie, aber weil sie Left-wing sind und kein Recht zu einer Stimme in der Gemeinschaft haben.
8. Wenn der linke Anklang an Ihre Sentimentalität, feststellen, daß sie für Ihre Vergesslichkeit hoffen und sie informieren, daß Sie durch sie sehen und sie in der Verachtung halten.
9. Ein annehmbarer Feind verdient unsere Großzügigkeit, nachdem wir gewonnen haben. Das links ist jedoch nicht ein annehmbarer Feind, obwohl er versucht, so zu scheinen.
10. Das links sind für den Krieg verantwortlich. Die Behandlung, die sie von uns empfangen, ist kaum unjust. Sie haben sie alle verdient.

Es ist der Job der Regierung, sie zu beschäftigen. Niemand hat das Recht, auf seinen Selbst zu fungieren, aber jedes hat die Aufgabe, zum der Masse des Zustandes gegen das links zu stützen, sie mit anderen zu verteidigen, und durch, alle Left-wing Tricks irregeführt zu werden zu vermeiden.

Die Sicherheit des Zustandes erfordert die von uns alle.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:22 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Saying that oil companies buy their oil on long term contracts doesn't dispute my point that they don't set the world price for a barrel of oil. I skipped over Sig's spot price comment because it wasn't relevant. There is no 'price fixing', as he claims. There has been inquiry after inquiry by the US Gov't on 'BIG OIL' ripping off the consumers, and every time, nothing has been found.

Your assertion that the requirements of refineries to produce all the various different 'blends' has zero effect on the flow of gas is laughable. Sure, I might not have the industry jargon down, but my point is still valid. Snicker all you want, but there's no price gouging, no price fixing, and that's all that really matters. Are oil companies trying to make a profit ? Hell yeah they are, and good for them! But at a profit margin of around 9% , they're doing far better than many other industries.


People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:37 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap

Do you have any links, any quotes, any experience, any references - ANYTHING - with which to back up your little opinions ? If you do, this might be the time to post them.

I do happen to know what does affect gasoline supplies going into spring. Do you want to know too ? All you have to do is ask.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


You mean the seemingly endless string of "accidents" that do no, or surprisingly little harm while conveniently excusing hefty price bumps ?

I been watching THAT pattern for 12 years now, Rue - like that "Oh, no, prices won't rise this summer unless something horrible happens, you know, like a refinery fire..."

And less than a week later ?
Refinery fire, no injuries, no damage, no product loss, by supposedly a handy lightning strike hitting a tank (which any IDIOT knows is fully grounded or you couldn't load/unload it safely).

Yeah, sure.

Do a little homework.

-F

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:19 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hi Frem

I suspect you are an astute observer of gasoline prices.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:34 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


The left is no more dangerous than the supposed "right".

I'm only more scared of 'em now because if they get their president in '08, the Demons will own all three branches, and my Consitutional rights will be raped even more than the current administration has raped them.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I suspect you are an astute observer of gasoline prices.

Considerin what I do for a livin, I had damned well better be.... I dunno what tripped my suspicions initially, don't really recall, but something did, and I started watching careful.

Every March-to-May, there's a cluster or rash of "incidents" resulting in astonishingly little harm or damage, and a nice fat price spike - every single year.

Look careful, and you'll see a pattern, believe it.

-F

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:36 PM

FLETCH2


Deluded ramblings look far better in German. :)

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:41 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You mean the seemingly endless string of "accidents" that do no, or surprisingly little harm while conveniently excusing hefty price bumps ?

I been watching THAT pattern for 12 years now, Rue - like that "Oh, no, prices won't rise this summer unless something horrible happens, you know, like a refinery fire..."

And less than a week later ?
Refinery fire, no injuries, no damage, no product loss, by supposedly a handy lightning strike hitting a tank (which any IDIOT knows is fully grounded or you couldn't load/unload it safely).

Yeah, sure.

Do a little homework.

-F



Yes they really seem to be unlucky dont they?

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:37 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Deluded ramblings look far better in German. :)

Well, I saw the title of the thread, it reminded me of something, and I couldn't resist.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:33 PM

SIMONWHO


True but you should be aware that the people who most need to understand it have no grasp of a) history, b) Europe, c) anything really.

For them, demagoguery is the only way to have a political debate. Best to leave them to it.

Oh look, Al-Qaeda is thriving under Bush:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article206
7081.ece

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Friday, July 13, 2007 2:40 AM

CITIZEN


They can't be doing that well?

I mean, surely the CIA has cut off their funding by NOW?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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