REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A reproductive Ethics question

POSTED BY: FLETCH2
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 08:19
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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 7:25 AM

FLETCH2


Found this on the Beeb and was interested in Browncoat opinion

Quote:



Girl could give birth to sibling
By Michelle Roberts
BBC News, Health reporter in Lyon


A Canadian mother has frozen her eggs for use by her seven-year-old daughter, who is likely to become infertile.
Should the girl opt to use the eggs and gain regulatory approval, she would effectively have a baby that was her half-brother or sister.

Critics said the work, presented at a fertility conference in Lyon, was deeply concerning.

But the doctors from the McGill Reproductive Center, Montreal, called the donation an act of motherly love.


Also, the girl and any future partner would have a choice as to whether to use the eggs or not, they said.

The girl, Flavie Boivin, cannot have children naturally because of a chromosomal condition called Turner's syndrome.

Desperate to help, mum Melanie, who is 35 and a lawyer, investigated whether she could donate her own eggs.

After much research, she came across Professor Seang Lin Tan's team at McGill who run an egg freezing programme for cancer patients and those who want to delay childbearing.

Melanie said she discussed the decision with her partner and Flavie's father, Martin Cote, also 35 and a financial analyst.

Emotional impact

"We were concerned about the ethical questions - would I look at the child as my grandchild or as my own? We were also concerned about the financial impact, the physical impact on me and the emotional impact on the family."

After a year they decided to go ahead.


Could it possibly get more bewildering than this?
Josephine Quintavalle
Comment on Reproductive Ethics
"What made us sure was the fact that I was there to help my daughter. If I could do anything in my power to help her I had to do it and because of my age I had to do it now.

"I told myself if she had needed another organ like a kidney I would volunteer without any hesitation and it is the same kind of thought process for this."

Melanie said her daughter would be the real mother as she would be caring for the child.

"I do not want to oblige her to use the eggs; I want to give her the option."

Professor Tan said they had asked for the advice of an independent ethics committee.

"The ethic committee agreed to it because the mother giving to a daughter is out of love and it is up to the daughter and partner in future years to decide whether to use the eggs or not.

"And ethical considerations change with time. Who knows what the ethics will be in 20 years from now."

Identity problems

Professor Tan said this was the first case of mother-to-daughter egg donation. There have been cases of donation from sister to sister.


Dr Richard Kennedy, of the British Fertility Society, said: "This altruistic behaviour is not dissimilar to the scenario where a parent donates a kidney to a child.

"In this case, instead of using eggs from an unknown donor, she will get the opportunity to know the source.

"Although this means the resulting offspring will be similar in genetics, an unrelated sperm will be used - and this means that the offspring will not be a true sister."

Josephine Quintavalle, of Comment on Reproductive Ethics, expressed sympathy with the family, but could not support storing the mother's eggs.

She said: "The psychological welfare of the baby itself has to be the principal concern.

"Such a baby would be a sibling of the birth mother at the same time as the direct genetic offspring of the grandmother donor.

"In psychiatry we are hearing more and more of children suffering from identity problems, and specifically a condition called 'genealogical bewilderment'. Could it possibly get more bewildering than this?

"We have to stop thinking of women only in terms of their reproductive potential.

"The daughter could live a full and happy life without having children of her own."





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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 7:49 AM

FREDGIBLET


My opinion? A resounding "Meh".

The mother isn't forcing her daughter to use her eggs, the daughter may decide to never have have kids or use someone else's eggs. There's no real genetic concerns so the only reasonable issue is the odd family tree it makes for, and really I don't think that will be an issue for the kid unless it's parents make a big deal out of it.

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 7:57 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER


I agree. The mother isn't forcing anything, but she is giving her daughter the option of having a child in the future that will have a genetic connection with her, which is the only reason I can see her doing what she did. (I'm not one who thinks genetics makes a family, but for some people it's important.)
So, yeah, "meh."


"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon

JustAnotherMudder=NYPinTA Goodness.

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 8:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Found this on the Beeb and was interested in Browncoat opinion



The whole thing is plain stupid; adoption is the answer.

I can see it now: "Shut up Mom! I'm NOT disobeying your motherly orders, I'm rejecting your sisterly jealousy!!! I AM going out with Tommy!!!!!!!!!!"


Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 12:55 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


The problems that I see with this are largely medical. First of all, the daughter has a genetic disease called Turner’s Syndrome, which as far as I know is a more or less random thing, but this doesn’t mean that certain people aren’t more susceptible to it then others. By using the mother’s eggs there is a possibility that the same genetic susceptibilities are transmitted down the line to the grandchildren. Although I kind of think this is a small risk. However a greater problem is that one of the symptoms of Turner’s Syndrome is cardiovascular, so the question emerges of whether it is really a good idea for the daughter to give birth anyway. Daughter and parents might come to regret this decision, although I don’t really know if that is the case.

All in all though, I don’t see a lot here that really vexes my ethical conscience. The medical concerns don’t seem extremely bad to me. I think she and her doctor should carefully consider the risks of child birth, but with regard to the ethical question of using the mother’s eggs, as long as the psychological boundaries are well defined by the family, I see nothing particularly wrong with it.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 1:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Me neither. Some people really want generational continuity with their children. The daughter, if she should be able to have children some day, may feel as if her children (from her mother's eggs) are a nice continuation of the family. OTOH, if she really hates her mom she may want only to flush the eggs. Either way, it's her choice.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 4:45 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
as long as the psychological boundaries are well defined by the family, I see nothing particularly wrong with it.


Silly silly British Finn.
The boundaries of which you speak are difficult under the best of circumstances.

"Hey Sally, I hear your Mom's your sister!! Ha ha!"

"Hey Frankie, if you came from your Mom's hoo hoo, is that like reverse-sibling incest?? Har har!"

"Sally, your sis grounded you again? Tee hee!"

The s**t a kid in that situation would have to hear would be endless. I was the butt of endless jokes in grade school, and that's just 'cause I was SKINNY!!!!
Can you imagine the cruelty, and the emotional scars that would ensue?




Best go a simpler route Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 5:03 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I see no reason to advertise the fact. What are you going to do? Sit a five year old down to explain the Facts of Life? So you can traumatize them by saying you're not really their mommy??? How stupid would that be? There's a reason most people aren't told they're adopted until they're a bit older and able to handle it. Once out of the 'endless teasing' stage of school I think is a good time.
If it's important to this girl that her possible children have a genetic connection to her, she has the option, and there's no reason to parade it around so the kid gets teased and has trouble wrapping his/her mind around the whole situation. If it's not important, or she shouldn't give birth for health reasons, she has other options. If she doesn't want kids at all, she doesn't have to worry about any options. Not even birth control! Hey, shiny.
Why is this even a question? How could this be unethical? We have the technology, why not make use of it and leave options open? It's not like the woman is having sex with her daughter, sheesh.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 4:26 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
The s**t a kid in that situation would have to hear would be endless. I was the butt of endless jokes in grade school, and that's just 'cause I was SKINNY!!!!
Can you imagine the cruelty, and the emotional scars that would ensue?

Not really. I mean it’s not like the kid is going to be born with wrinkles and knitting needles.

And it’s not like anything is going to prevent the kid from getting teased anyway. I was ripped on in high school and I don’t even know why.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 5:03 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Modern science... What can you do? They come up with all sorts of crazy things these days!

I mean they put a human ear on a mouse!

This seems like just a natural progression of a curious fraternity of modern day Dr Frankensteins. Ultimatley they're only limited by their imaginations. Next they'll be turning men into women... Wha?... No... They did that already....

The mind boggles..


www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 7:10 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I see no reason to advertise the fact. What are you going to do? Sit a five year old down to explain the Facts of Life? So you can traumatize them by saying you're not really their mommy??? How stupid would that be? There's a reason most people aren't told they're adopted until they're a bit older and able to handle it. Once out of the 'endless teasing' stage of school I think is a good time.

Um...PR, why are we discussing this right now?
Cause it was in THE NEWS??? This type of first will be watched, and reported on, and the child will be famous to a degree. No way will the child/children of such science NOT grow up knowing the facts. Understanding them? Okay, so that will come in the seven year-old area. But that's also the beginning of the teasing time. By High School, the kid will get a gun, and.....

Worst case Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 7:12 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I was ripped on in high school and I don’t even know why.


Kids feel threatened by intelligence.
That's why I went the martial arts route

No prob in H.S. Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 7:16 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Next they'll be turning men into women... Wha?... No... They did that already....

The mind boggles..



How about those cloned twin boys in Alaska? They're only five, and both stand almost five feet tall. Genetically superior. Dark Angel for real!
(S**T! I forgot! It's not generally known....)

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 7:38 AM

FLETCH2


I posted it to see if anyone thought there would be a problem and I'm glad to see that most people are ok about it. In truth we are all a product of our parents and ultimately of our grandparents. The X chromosome that a girl has in her eggs came in effect from her mother and before that from her grandmothers, so while the eggs are not "her" eggs they are about as close as you can get genetically to being hers.

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 7:39 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
the child will be famous to a degree. No way will the child/children of such science NOT grow up knowing the facts.


Nonsense. Ten years from now no one will even remember. And it's not new science, just a new application thereof, if you can even call it that. If this girl is smart, she'll make her choice quietly, without alerting the media. The Ethics Police are already chewing it over, so she doesn't need to go to them if/when she wants a child. I understand that it's in the news, that's all fine, whatever. What I don't understand is why it's a big deal.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 8:11 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

Nonsense.

It is. I was just goin' for the big debate here. My worst case scenario probably wouldn't come to pass.
And ethically speaking- there's really no discussion to be had, it's just another form of conception- no big deal.

The serious Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 8:19 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Chrisisall





Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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