REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

All we are saying.......

POSTED BY: DEADLOCKVICTIM
UPDATED: Friday, June 1, 2007 11:27
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Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:16 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM



is take your stinking peace somewhere else..

America ranks low in 'Peace Index'
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-briefs31.2may3
1,1,3749606.story?coll=la-news-a_section&ctrack=3&cset=true

From Times Wire Reports
May 31, 2007

Quote:

The United States is among the least peaceful nations in the world, ranking 96th between Yemen and Iran, according to an index of 121 countries.

According to the Global Peace Index, created by the Economist Intelligence Unit, Norway is the most peaceful nation and Iraq is the least, just after Russia, Israel and Sudan.

The index was compiled based on 24 indicators. They included the number of wars in which a country was involved, arms sales, violent crimes and relations with neighboring countries.

Fifteen of the top 20 most peaceful nations are in Western Europe, and higher income appeared to lead to higher levels of peace.








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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:31 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I wonder where Finland ranks on that list...

I know they're not especially violent in a national sense, but I also know there's no way in HELL I would mess with em, just ask the russians!
*shudder*

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:32 AM

KANEMAN


"and higher income appeared to lead to higher levels of peace."

Where did we go wrong?

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:42 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Not sure this will come as any surprise, even to the Repubs.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:59 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I wonder where Finland ranks on that list...I know they're not especially violent in a national sense, but I also know there's no way in HELL I would mess with em, just ask the russians!


Stalin thought that would be a cakewalk. I guess the idiot shouldn't have purged everyone from the military who knew what they were doing beforehand. Then those Finns were even better at winter stuff too. They were outnumbered like 10 to 1? right?

It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"All we are saying.......is take your stinking peace somewhere else.."

Hmmm. Must come from the Reaver side of the Firefly family.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:19 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


sorry it took so long... but i finally tracked down the list...
http://www.visionofhumanity.com/rankings/

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:28 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Must come from the Reaver side of the Firefly family.



Actually Rue, I am as thoroughly appalled by the fact that the U.S. is so near the bottom of this list as you probably are - my tongue was planted firmly in cheek as I typed that message....

I have worked for many years to bring John & Yoko’s dream to reality… and the disillusionment and despair got the better of me….

Apologies..

EDIT: btw..FREM - Finland comes in as number 5 (with a bullet)
wait... ok, number 6 - Japan by a nose

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:35 AM

FREMDFIRMA


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

About 4 to 1 in manpower, but severely overmatched in terms of armor and equipment support, which they quickly rectified by either taking it from Russians who erm.. wouldn't be needin it no more, or by application of Molotov Cocktails, which is where that name for petrol incendiaries comes from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail

Not much is spoken about the air engagements, of which there seem to be comparatively few, the Finns had somewhere around 30 aircraft, most of them an old Fokker design one step removed from biplanes - which regardless performed superbly in the cooler, denser air caused by extremely cold ground temps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_D.XXI
And the rest were mostly Glosters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Gladiator
Not much of a force, all things considered, but Finn RoE in the air seemed to be prettymuch attack on sight and don't stop or disengage for any reason until out of ammunition or out of targets, and this rabidness unnerved the Russian pilots quite a bit, especially when the Finns use of the finger-four formation vs Russian 3-plane deltas gave the impression of the Finns having numerical advantage.

Funny thing though, while idly digging this stuff up for curiosities sake during my lunch break, the Russian bungling of this invasion really does echo pretty solidly with our bungling in the middle east, doesn't it ?

-Frem


It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Deadlock -

Oh, that explains it. Merci beaucoups. I was kinda wondering.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Where did we go wrong?
Everywhere. Down the same path of the Roman Empire.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:16 AM

HERO


From Wikipedia:
Quote:


The Economist has been criticized for its Millian utilitarian moral endorsements such as supporting the legalization of prostitution, illegal drugs, euthanasia and same-sex marriage.


This was a joint venture between a libertarian magazine, a panel of do-gooder nobel types, and a so-called Australian Peace Study Institute.

I suspect that the results are tailor made to fit the thesis. Euro-socialism, especially Scandanavian, is best. I disagree, so does my assault rifle.

H

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And Hero is a good example.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:23 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


"I disagree, so does my assault rifle."


ah, working our way to the bottom....way to go dude

It's guys like you and young George that will help us make it to 121..

we're so proud

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:37 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Hero – a short list of Global Peace Index ensorsements… the full, very long list here: http://www.visionofhumanity.com/endorsers/index.php
I stopped with Mr. Galbraith, a known and trusted individual. Bitch if you must, but don’t dispute this finding until you can discredit everyone on this list… oh, and peace


Key Endorsers for the Global Peace Index
The following prominent individuals and organisations have endorsed the Global Peace Index as a groundbreaking piece of research that demonstrates the urgent need to study peace.


NOBEL LAUREATES
. HH Dalai Lama
. Archbishop Desmond Tutu
. Betty Williams
. President Jimmy Carter
. Amnesty International
. Professor Joseph Stiglitz

POLITICAL DIGNITARIES
. Her Majesty Queen Noor of Jordan
. His Royal Highness Prince El Hassan bin Talal of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
. Lord Alderdice, President of Liberal International, former Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly
. Lord Hylton, House of Lords, UK (and the Ammerdown Centre)
. Lord Joffe, Founder and former Chair of Oxfam International, UK
. Lord Judd, House of Lords, UK
. Lord St. John of Bletso, House of Lords, UK
. Tony Baldry MP, UK. Former Minister and International Development Select Committee Chair
. Martin Bell, Former BBC War Correspondent & Independent MP, UK
. John Garamendi, Lieutenant Governor of California
. Rt Hon Gavin Strang MP, UK representative, Parliamentarians for Global Action

NOTABLE INDIVIDUALS
. Phillip Adams, broadcaster/journalist, Australia
. Sir Richard Branson
. Former Australian Ambassador, Professor Richard Broinowski
. Gordon Cairns, Company Board Director & Former CEO Lion Nathan, Australia
. Dr Helen Caldicott, Physician. Founder & President of the Nuclear Policy Research Institute (NPRI)
. Alan Cameron A.M., former Australian Ombudsman and Chairman of ASIC
. Professor Peter Carey, Oxford University, UK
. Professor Jocelyn Chey, University of Sydney, former Australian Senior Diplomat
. Professor Kevin Clements, Director, ACPACS, The Australian Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies, University of Queensland
. Major General Patrick Cordingley DSO DSc
. Dr Stella Cornelius, Director, Conflict Resolution Network
. Mary Cunnane, Literary Agent
. Louise Diamond, Director, Where Peace Begins
. Dan Dumitrescu, VP Global Technology Practice, EWK&P, Australia
. Bob Edgar, National Council of Churches, New York, USA
. Professor Emeritus Meredith Edwards, former Deputy Secretary of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, Canberra
. Dr Scilla Elworthy, Founder of Peace Direct & founder and Chair of Oxford Research Group, UK
. Dr. Neil Ferguson, Director, Desmond Tutu Centre for War and Peace Studies, UK
. Tim Flannery, Australian of the Year and Climatologist
. Harriet Fulbright, President, The Fulbright Center, Washington DC, USA
0. Nidal Foqaha, Executive Director, Palestinian Peace Coalition/Geneva Initiative
0. James Galbraith, Professor of Economics Texas University and Chair of The Economists for Peace and Security

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:38 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Oh well. Peace can be highly overrated anyway.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:50 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Yeah, if there was peace, there'd go your job.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:04 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


That’s another way to look at it. But that kind of peace is not likely to come anytime soon. Unfortunately, my job is secure.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Which reminds me of a song. Let's see, how does that go? ... All we are saying is give peace a ... shot?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:36 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I think Cheney tried that with his 'friend' and it didn't work.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:58 PM

PENGUIN


...give peas a chance...






King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:43 PM

HKCAVALIER


And yet, in terms of actual warfare taking place on our soil, we would surely rank way up at the top somewhere. So our nation is extraordinarily peaceful, while our government and its agents enact untold violence around the globe.

It's our peculiar geographical placement that allows folk to come up with cockamamie notions like "peace through strength" and other oximorons. Peace here through strength there. In that sense the "fly paper" strategy has been American policy for decades. The whole world beyond our tranquil borders is our fly paper.

We're both isolationist and interventionist. We don't want to get to know you, but we want to tell you what's best for you and kick your ass if you disagree. Does it all go back to the Christian missionary thing? We still bringing the word of God to the heathen? Conversion at sword point?

We wouldn't be half as far down that list as we are if more people in this country understood what war actually does to people who have to live through it.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:16 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

posted by Hero- I suspect that the results are tailor made to fit the thesis. Euro-socialism, especially Scandanavian, is best. I disagree, so does my assault rifle.


was that a reference to the 2nd amendment?(if so, i m in total agreement)

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:43 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

We're both isolationist and interventionist. We don't want to get to know you, but we want to tell you what's best for you and kick your ass if you disagree. Does it all go back to the Christian missionary thing? We still bringing the word of God to the heathen? Conversion at sword point?



i was right there with you until the 'christian' part. its not christian doctrine that encourages conversion by sword, that is and always will be entirely the work of 'ambitious' men with ulterior motives. what about pagan Rome? what about (atheistic)communist RUssia? what about the Nazis? its not my intention to drudge up history(and divert the discussion), but i take offense to comments like that about christianity, because in no way does the bible promote conversion by force. Jesus' says himself that a believer is someone who does "Gods will". i think wed all agree that if you vote like a liberal, that makes you a liberal.. regardless of whether you claim to be conservative. IMO, a religious belief is no different. most people like to bring up the Catholic church, and its dark history, as evidence for their thesis.. which delights me, since it only justifies my case. Martin Luther, considered one of the founders of the protestant reformation, testified himself that the Roman Papacy fullfilled the role of the "harlot" in scripture, for forfeiting the truth of Gods message for entire rituals and doctrines based on falsehoods. the Roman priests were the only ones with access to the scriptures, so it wasnt hard to manipulate these people with unfounded lies to begin with. so im just tired of the stereotyping already
... i mean, and secular societies' perfect? please!

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:51 PM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And yet, in terms of actual warfare taking place on our soil, we would surely rank way up at the top somewhere. So our nation is extraordinarily peaceful, while our government and its agents enact untold violence around the globe.



I think you are probably right about this. How can a person or a nation understand the true meaning of peace without knowing the horrors of war intimately? Of course we all hope that we never have to experience that horror, and yet so many of us turn a blind eye to those who are affected by the death and destruction of war.

Two fictional accounts of post apocalyptic America come to mind. The Road, by Cormac McCarthy and The Pesthouse by Jim Crace are set in an America that has experienced the total devastation of war and are sobering looks at an all too plausible future considering current events and our place in them.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:37 PM

HKCAVALIER


Antimason,

If I'd have asked "Does it all go back to the Christian thing?" you'd maybe have a case for me being anti-Christian, but I didn't.

The legacy of the Christian missionaries on this continent is pretty monumentally shameful. I wasn't bringing up the Christian missionaries as some kind of all-purpose bad-guys. The Christian missionary experience played a big part in laying the groundwork for European control of the continent--not the Ancient Romans, nor the Russians, nor the Nazis.

Antimason, c'mon, we've been over this ground before. You and I both know that there's a big fat disconnect between Christ's message and culturally Christian antics over the centuries. You say as much in your post here. So how is it you get to say that so-called Christians did all kinds of evil, and I don't?

Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
i was right there with you until the 'christian' part. its not christian doctrine that encourages conversion by sword, that is and always will be entirely the work of 'ambitious' men with ulterior motives. what about pagan Rome? what about (atheistic)communist RUssia? what about the Nazis? its not my intention to drudge up history(and divert the discussion), but i take offense to comments like that about christianity, because in no way does the bible promote conversion by force. Jesus' says himself that a believer is someone who does "Gods will". i think wed all agree that if you vote like a liberal, that makes you a liberal.. regardless of whether you claim to be conservative. IMO, a religious belief is no different. most people like to bring up the Catholic church, and its dark history, as evidence for their thesis.. which delights me, since it only justifies my case. Martin Luther, considered one of the founders of the protestant reformation, testified himself that the Roman Papacy fullfilled the role of the "harlot" in scripture, for forfeiting the truth of Gods message for entire rituals and doctrines based on falsehoods. the Roman priests were the only ones with access to the scriptures, so it wasnt hard to manipulate these people with unfounded lies to begin with. so im just tired of the stereotyping already
... i mean, and secular societies' perfect? please!


HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, June 1, 2007 6:43 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
the Russian bungling of this invasion really does echo pretty solidly with our bungling in the middle east, doesn't it ?


Once again you're a fountain of information Frem. And yes, bungling...Lack of planning and problems adapting, plus, wasting resources and lives because you don't know when to retreat and regroup/re-equip. Yep, more than a few similarities. Are you gonna get all the torches, peasants, and farm implements together or shall I?

It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites

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Friday, June 1, 2007 7:18 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

HKCavalier= Antimason, You and I both know that there's a big fat disconnect between Christ's message and culturally Christian antics over the centuries. You say as much in your post here. So how is it you get to say that so-called Christians did all kinds of evil, and I don't?


you are right... i still get defensive about the subject. rarely is the distinction made between christian, and "so-called", and im a huge stickler for the actual message, and not the perceived message. i feel that we recognize the individuals role in committing a crime when its secular society, but at the same time we're quick to relegate blame when a religions involved(and its almost always an unfounded ideology responsible). but i concede, a lot of horrible things were done in the name of religion.. i just want to be sure not to blame the belief, since i dont feel it promotes this behavior at all. there are many worldviews that are harmful, and used for political manipulation, that dont involve the abrahamic God, that i wish we could be more conscious of these things. but like i said, i was in agreement with your other comments

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Friday, June 1, 2007 7:33 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
you are right... i still get defensive about the subject. rarely is the distinction made between christian, and "so-called", and im a huge stickler for the actual message, and not the perceived message. i feel that we recognize the individuals role in committing a crime when its secular society, but at the same time we're quick to relegate blame when a religions involved(and its almost always an unfounded ideology responsible).

I don’t think you’re wrong. I think HK is. HK asked the question if current politics are an extension of “Christian missionary experience.” Now the question may have been sincere, but it’s based on a lie. The lie that the spreading of Christianity was the motivation behind European expansionism. It never was and it never has been. Christianity came along with European expansion, but only as a footnote. The real motivation was power and wealth.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, June 1, 2007 7:50 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t think you’re wrong. I think HK is...



And of course, in actuality, all of you are wrong. When will you ever learn to ask me first?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, June 1, 2007 11:11 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t think you’re wrong. I think HK is. HK asked the question if current politics are an extension of “Christian missionary experience.” Now the question may have been sincere, but it’s based on a lie. The lie that the spreading of Christianity was the motivation behind European expansionism. It never was and it never has been. Christianity came along with European expansion, but only as a footnote. The real motivation was power and wealth.



Dang it, Finn,

The context of my comment matters! I was talking about the attitude of modern American foreign policy: "We don't want to get to know you, but we want to tell you what's best for you and kick your ass if you disagree." A characteristic we share with the Christian Missionaries to the Americas and which we do not shared with the Conquistadors!

There is no dang lie involved! Why, why do you insist on finding fault where there is none? You're an intelligent, well educated person who applies his erudition to his world view, and I applaud you for it--can't you imagine that there are other people here who, though they disagree with you a lot of the time, nonetheless do the same?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, June 1, 2007 11:27 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The context of my comment matters! I was talking about the attitude of modern American foreign policy: "We don't want to get to know you, but we want to tell you what's best for you and kick your ass if you disagree." A characteristic we share with the Christian Missionaries to the Americas and which we do not shared with the Conquistadors!

There is no dang lie involved! Why, why do you insist on finding fault where there is none? You're an intelligent, well educated person who applies his erudition to his world view, and I applaud you for it--can't you imagine that there are other people here who, though they disagree with you a lot of the time, nonetheless do the same?

I don’t agree with your assessment of American foreign policy and I think you’d be hard pressed to demonstrate that such an approach as you describe actually exists within those policies, however that’s not what I was referring to. I’m happy to leave you to your opinion on that matter. And your subsequent explanations have put your argument in a little better light concerning religion.

However, there is a lie (of sorts) involved in the history you are alluding to. Regardless of whether it was intended, and from your subsequent responses appears that it was not intended, the below statement is ambiguous.


"We're both isolationist and interventionist. We don't want to get to know you, but we want to tell you what's best for you and kick your ass if you disagree. Does it all go back to the Christian missionary thing? We still bringing the word of God to the heathen? Conversion at sword point?"


This does suggest that what you are implying is that we (Christians) are continuing a policy of Christian expansionism, which never actually existed. Christianity spread to regions that had been dominated by European expansions, not the other way around. People tend to confuse and oversimplify this into blaming Christianity for what was done in the name of power and wealth by entities directly allied with the Monarchies of the Europe, not the Church.

Sufficed to say your remarks were misconstrued and that was not your intent. I understand that.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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