REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What our world has become.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Sunday, June 3, 2007 09:38
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Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:56 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The response is: I pretend not to see it b/c it's uncomfortable for me.

I don't know about that. I can't say what these people were thinking, anymore then anyone else can, but as for me personally, I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable ignoring homeless people on the street and certainly not street musicians.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:07 AM

SHADYGLEN


Wow. Amazing article, thanks for the link!

The time comes when silence is a betrayal. MLK,Jr.

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Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:31 AM

KANEMAN


Ruse,
"Do we WANT people to appreciate classical music?"


Not really. What makes it any better than Rap or Rock or Emo or Disco? It is a form of music. It comes down to personal preference. What are we music Nazi's around here? Is Bell any more talented than Neil Pert? Why do you WANT people to appreciate classical music? Why not the Cure...Robert Johnson, Marley, Dixie Chixs, Spice Girls, Taking back Sunday? How often do you listen to classical music on your Ipod? What makes one form more important? Who decides......Answer, The listener! You come off as a tad HIGHBROW....


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Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:53 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The response is: I pretend not to see it b/c it's uncomfortable for me.

I don't know about that. I can't say what these people were thinking, anymore then anyone else can, but as for me personally, I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable ignoring homeless people on the street and certainly not street musicians.



I'm pretty sure that what she was saying is that for some reason the presence of street musicians makes you uncomfortable, so you ignore them. No more correct but a different statement then "Ignoring street musicians makes you uncomfortable".

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Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:49 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Hi Agent,

I have to go to a meeting, but I'd like to pose this question: why would a person need to LEARN to ignore sounds and people? (Besides paying minute attention to where they're walking.)



Information overload? Overstimulation?

I am not talking about ignoring all sounds and people, but those that are familiar enough to create their specific categories in the mind, be judged safe. Otherwise we'd have to categorize every sound and person every day. And again and again, which would leave us blind to what is actually new.

We filter out certain categories in order to free our attention to what is actually new or relevant. We'll recognize a familiar face in a crowd faster, are able to think about something other than walking around strangers and what certain noises mean, what the people around us are talking about. Which is actually often repetitive, boring and frustrating and thus stressful. Thinking about something else, navigating on auto-pilot frees our mind go to a more interesting place. Or a more relevant one.

A city, compared to the environment in which human beings evolved is incredibly crowded, noisy. We are swamped with information. Swamped with people. It's not natural. It's not really avoidable for a large number of people considering our population size, and it has many advantages, but it is not natural.

I think filtering is the only way to cope with the stress. We reduce the amount of stimuli we actually have to examine down to a number we can cope with easily.

Filtering is our friend.

Now, we can demonize the idea of concentrating people in cities the way we do, but the advantages outweigh or at least balance the disadvantages, in my opinion.

Even in a village with 50 people, there will be filtering. Just less of it, because there is much less stimulation on offer.

Hell, people living all by themselves also start filtering simply because they can't take the boredom of having to reexamine the same things all over again. They, too, will disappear into their heads.

It's how we are. A normal human response.


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Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:08 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The response is: I pretend not to see it b/c it's uncomfortable for me.

I don't know about that. I can't say what these people were thinking, anymore then anyone else can, but as for me personally, I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable ignoring homeless people on the street and certainly not street musicians.



I'm pretty sure that what she was saying is that for some reason the presence of street musicians makes you uncomfortable, so you ignore them. No more correct but a different statement then "Ignoring street musicians makes you uncomfortable".

Okay, well in that case, homeless people on the street might make me uncomfortable depending on the circumstances. I don’t really want them approaching my family, because I don’t know if their dangerous. But in any case that’s not way I ignore them; that’s a completely different story that has to do with the belief that anything I do for them personally is likely to have little positive impact and may aggravate the situation.

As far as street musicians go, I can't think of any circumstance in which they would make me uncomfortable? If I ignore them, it probably has a lot more to do with not caring about their music then with any discomfort.

And speaking to what Agent is talking about: when I used to walk to work or when I’m out running or even just taking a walk, I’m almost always in my own little world. Most of the time my mind is deep in thought about work: thinking of how I might phrase something for an upcoming briefing, or working out the physics or the chemistry or the geometry of something I’ve been struggling with. Or sometimes I'm thinking about something completely frivolous. So I might not ignore street performers because I don’t care, although I probably don’t, but I might be completely consumed with what I’m thinking about.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 3:37 PM

RUE


I'll probably just have time for one response today:

Agent and Finn - have either of you lived in another country for any length of time? Because - and I'll have to go back to my experiences rather than any study - not all countries are like this. Going to work or coming home from work in another country is nothing like in the US. Each place has its different flavor, but the US is, by far, the most defensive walled-off group of commuters I have ever seen.

It's not 'normal' in the sense of some hidden biological response. It is very cultural.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 3:43 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I'll probably just have time for one response today:

Agent and Finn - have either of you lived in another country for any length of time? Because - and I'll have to go back to my experiences rather than any study - not all countries are like this. Going to work or coming home from work in another country is nothing like in the US. Each place has its different flavor, but the US is, by far, the most defensive walled-off group of commuters I have ever seen.

It's not 'normal' in the sense of some hidden biological response. It is very cultural.



I have to agree Rue.


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:03 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I'll probably just have time for one response today:

Agent and Finn - have either of you lived in another country for any length of time? Because - and I'll have to go back to my experiences rather than any study - not all countries are like this. Going to work or coming home from work in another country is nothing like in the US. Each place has its different flavor, but the US is, by far, the most defensive walled-off group of commuters I have ever seen.

It's not 'normal' in the sense of some hidden biological response. It is very cultural.



I'll repeat here that I am not actually from or in the US, nor in a particularly big city.

The results of the experiment still didn't strike me as odd or alarming.

I haven't lived in another country than mine for any length of time, though, so I'm perfectly willing to concede that you may have seen things I have not.
Since you're the one with the experience, what are the responses in cities of comparable size and cultural offers, at morning rush hour in a spot of public transit in other countries?

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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 9:28 PM

RUE


I've been away for a while so I'll get back to this as I catch up.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Home, finally, long story to that you might actually get in the form of a rant, later, maybe.
(fyi, not in a good mood and real tired so i might be a little...irrational...)

I've little useful to add here beyond stating for the record - no, you've not convinced me one bit of the need for social order of the type we commonly practice in the US, not even close.

In fact, if anything this thread further convinces me it's a deterimental factor to society, humanity, and all the things that, you know, actually *matter* in my eyes.

I also think it's asinine and that the world isn't, you know, gonna END if you're a little late coming in, especially if you make up that time at the end of the day - even when I worked a 9-to-5, my boss saw little difference between 9:00-5:00 and 9:18 - 5:30, long as the job gone done.

Besides which, lemme ask you this question ehe ?
How many of you are doing 50-70 hours work...
On a 40-hour "Salary" used to dodge pesky things like overtime and you know, actually paying you for your work, yes ?

The american "work environment" is so greviously detrimental to the mental state of a person, that if you took most foreigners and set them into it, within six months they would go crazy - we work the most hours, with the least vacation, and somehow wind up LESS productive, answer me why that is, hmm ?

No, this "social order" is just bullshit, is what it is, a control mechanism to keep the peons in line, and watching this fully convinces me of it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:43 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Actually, the interesting thing here to me is that, under the stated circumstances so many people stopped to smell the roses, and pay for the privlege, not so few.

The article states that the street concert lasted 45 minutes, and pulled in $52.00. (And yes, I am counting the twenty that the woman who recognized Mr. Bell threw in. Ask any street performer; money is money.)

Brethren and Sistren, that's better than sixty dollars an hour! How many of us earn that much?

Add in the fact that this performance took place at rush hour in a busy public transit station -- or in other words, dealing with a deck so cold it might have been dipped in liquid oxygen -- and I'd say the public taste acquited itself fairly well.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Wednesday, May 16, 2007 4:08 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I've little useful to add here beyond stating for the record - no, you've not convinced me one bit of the need for social order of the type we commonly practice in the US, not even close.



Is that what you were asking? I was thinking that we were talking about social structure in general which is not only necessary but inevitable. If you are talking about the U.S. then yeah there's a lot of dumb crap that can be done away with, though there's probably a fair bit that actually makes sense too, the problem being finding an agreement on what falls into which category.

Quote:

I also think it's asinine and that the world isn't, you know, gonna END if you're a little late coming in, especially if you make up that time at the end of the day - even when I worked a 9-to-5, my boss saw little difference between 9:00-5:00 and 9:18 - 5:30, long as the job gone done.


Of course not, but if you were habitually significantly late he'd probably notice and not in a good way.

Here's the thing though, the "stop and listen" advocates keep talking like there is only one street musician around but that's not the way it usually is. If I stop at one street musician for 2 or 3 minutes then it's no big deal, if I stop at every street musician I pass for 2 or 3 minutes then it adds up, fast. I have no interest in getting up any earlier then I already do just to stop and listen to music I don't know played on an instrument that I don't really care for.

That brings up the question that's never been answered here, why should I stop? What reason do I have to stop and listen a street musician? Why should I pay a street musician any attention at all? If I want to listen to music I can listen to an mp3 player on the move or get to work and listen to the radio or mp3's on my computer.

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Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:27 AM

RUE


Agent,

"Since you're the one with the experience, what are the responses in cities of comparable size and cultural offers, at morning rush hour in a spot of public transit in other countries?"

Bad video and quite a bit more bustle and people performing, but Toronto response during rush hour



Here is a fair portion of the video from Washington DC



Bruce Springsteen in Copenhagen - you have to watch to near the end where they pan to the crowd



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Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:04 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Bad video and quite a bit more bustle and people performing, but Toronto response during rush hour




There's a pretty huge difference between standing off to one side playing music and dancing around the middle of the crowd. If someone wearing a jesters hat comes dancing by me of course I'm going to pay attention (and probably get the hell away from them). If Bell had been getting in people's way dancing around the area wearing a rainbow wig he'd have gotten a lot more attention.

Quote:

Bruce Springsteen in Copenhagen - you have to watch to near the end where they pan to the crowd





Bruce Springsteen is a pop star whose face and music are well known by a huge number of people. If I showed a picture of Bruce Springsteen to everyone in my office I'll bet the 80% would recognize him, and everyone would know who he was when I told them his name. If I showed a picture of Joshua Bell I'd bet that no one would recognize him, and I'd further bet that if I told them who he was no more than 1 or 2 would recognize the name.


EDIT: Show me a video of Bell playing in a subway station in the middle of a large European city at rush hour where there is a significant number of people watching.

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Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:14 AM

RUE


FredG,

You're the one who's claiming everyone acts just like the people in DC. So, show me a video of Bell playing in a subway station in the middle of a large European city at rush hour where there is a significant number of people NOT watching..

"and probably get the hell away from them" Didn't you notice the Torontonians were smiling ??


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Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:56 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
You're the one who's claiming everyone acts just like the people in DC. So, show me a video of Bell playing in a subway station in the middle of a large European city at rush hour where there is a significant number of people NOT watching.



I never said anything of the sort. I freely recognize that other countries will react differently, though I suspect the difference would be a lot less then you think it in a given situation. YOU are the one who has stated repeatedly that there would be a difference so YOU are the one who has to back it up.

By that I mean show me the same experiment (I'll give you a pass on using the same musician and instrument) with the same songs performed in a similar setting by a musician of similar talent at rush hour in a major European city, and then another couple cities from different European countries, then maybe Canada, and toss in a Middle Eastern city or two and a Japanese city and a Chinese city or two. THEN you can say with authority that there is a significant difference in the way the different cultures work.

But there still isn't an answer to the question of why I should pay any attention in the first place.

Quote:

"and probably get the hell away from them" Didn't you notice the Torontonians were smiling ??


First off, And? So what? Second, I don't generally care for people dancing around me in a subway station, much less when they are dressed like fairies and clowns. If I was watching from a distance I might smile too, but not if I'm in the middle of it.

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Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:18 AM

FREDGIBLET


I was just thinking more about this thread and I realized something, no one has talked about another reason for wanting to be at work on time. So here goes, when I was talking to my boss about my work hours, I told him that I would be here at 9:30*. Regardless of whether or not he would notice, I still told him that I'd be here. Isn't that alone a good enough reason to want to be there on time?

*Yes I get to work at 9:30, but I leave at 6:30 (usually), it's better than the alternative (else I wouldn't have asked), but it's not some unfair setup where I only have to work 6 hours while the rest of you are working 8.

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Thursday, May 17, 2007 3:06 PM

RUE


FredG

Quote:

I never said anything of the sort. (that everyone acts just like the people in DC).
The whole context of your argument is that with complex societies people just naturally become more time-constrained. Here is one example:
"Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 15:12
Thus people in cities are more apt to be willing to bow to the demands of society."
So yes, you are under an onus to back up your very general claims.

Quote:

If I was watching from a distance I might smile too, but not if I'm in the middle of it.
Well, it was the people immediately in front of the group, some of whom turned around to look and turned back smiling. And, oh yes, the people in back of them, and if you'll look closely the people on either side ...

Aside from that, you keep saying that people are claiming you should always stop and listen. In fact you went so far in mischaracterizing the argument you said "I don't see it as a failing of society that we don't stop ... and watch entranced until it's done." Until it's done ??? Did anyone ever say that? And well, you also missed my point - which was that I found it odd that few people 'without breaking stride' turned around to look.

And in general, comparing tapes of Canadians and Americans in public places, Americans have defensive body language.

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Friday, May 18, 2007 6:56 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Quote:

I never said anything of the sort. (that everyone acts just like the people in DC).
The whole context of your argument is that with complex societies people just naturally become more time-constrained. Here is one example:
"Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 15:12
Thus people in cities are more apt to be willing to bow to the demands of society."
So yes, you are under an onus to back up your very general claims.



No. I was talking to Fremd about social order at the time. People in cities are less individualistic and independent and more likely to bow to social pressure then people outside of cities, with exceptions like every generalization. This only has a little to do with ignoring or not ignoring street musicians. I said NOTHING about whether or not people in other countries would behave differently, though the divide between city dwellers and non-city dwellers will probably still hold true regardless of country.

YOU are the one who is insisting that the results of the experiment would be different in different countries, something which I have never denied. But it is YOUR job to back up the claim if you want it to be agreed with as factual instead theoretical.

But here's the fun part, even if you prove that there is a difference, you still haven't given a concrete reason why anyone SHOULD stop and listen to a street musician, meaning that you still can't draw a conclusion about which culture is BETTER based off of the experiment.

Quote:

Quote:

If I was watching from a distance I might smile too, but not if I'm in the middle of it.
Well, it was the people immediately in front of the group, some of whom turned around to look and turned back smiling. And, oh yes, the people in back of them, and if you'll look closely the people on either side ...



And? So what? So I don't really like the idea of strange, oddly dressed people dancing around me, does that mean there's something wrong with me? Would you mind if I grabbed a bunch of friends and ambushed you outside your job wearing an assortment of loincloths and clown suits and danced around you for a bit? So I'm not that amused by people capering about around a subway station, does that mean there's something wrong with me?

Quote:

Aside from that, you keep saying that people are claiming you should always stop and listen.


If not always then when? Should they have paid attention just this time? Why?

Quote:

In fact you went so far in mischaracterizing the argument you said "I don't see it as a failing of society that we don't stop ... and watch entranced until it's done." Until it's done ??? Did anyone ever say that?


Then how long should we all listen to meet your expectations of a good society? 2 minutes? 4 minutes?

Quote:

And well, you also missed my point - which was that I found it odd that few people 'without breaking stride' turned around to look.


I was actually thinking about this after I watched some of the video. I think the conclusions they come to are interesting, I'm sure that the original video is higher-res, but I still think the reasoning is flawed. I for one may be dumber than the average mugger, but I AM capable of moving my eyes without turning my head and I see no reason to believe that many if not most of the people walking through that area couldn't have flicked their eyes over without breaking stride and without being noticed by the camera.

Quote:

And in general, comparing tapes of Canadians and Americans in public places, Americans have defensive body language.


Good for them...what's your point?

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Friday, May 18, 2007 3:36 PM

RUE


"you still haven't given a concrete reason why anyone SHOULD stop and listen to a street musician"

Once again you are arguing against an position I don't hold.

I was wondering - have you ever spent significant time in another country? Because, to say this yet again, different cultures have different flavors. What 'people in cities' do is different depending on which country you are in. It's not some pre-destined outcome of technology, complexity and interdependence. So the Danes, despite living in a fully modern complex city will stop and listen, the Torontonians turn and smile and the USers rush past.

Run this thought experiment in your mind - do you think Bruce Springsteen would gather a crowd in DC? Would a festive troupe garner smiles? And why not? So, what is it about US culture that causes that result? What is it about US culture that makes people defensive in public?

These are just questions. I think there is an underlying cause, but I'm curious what you think.

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Friday, May 18, 2007 5:49 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I was wondering - have you ever spent significant time in another country?



2 weeks in Canada when I was 8 or 9, pretty sure that doesn't count.

Quote:

Because, to say this yet again, different cultures have different flavors. What 'people in cities' do is different depending on which country you are in.


Right, like I said I never said that different countries would not have different reactions. You are placing my statement about social order into the argument about street musicians and it wasn't meant for here, I was talking to Fremd about the reason for the development of social order NOT about a specific reason why people ignore the street musicians.

Quote:

Run this thought experiment in your mind - do you think Bruce Springsteen would gather a crowd in DC?


Probably, it would depend on circumstance. If you put him in a transit station at rush hour then the crowd would form but it's probably be pretty small, if you put him outside in the off-hours like that video appeared to be then he would probably pull about as many as in that video. It really depends on how many people recognized him.

Quote:

Would a festive troupe garner smiles?


If they were in the middle of a transit station at rush hour? I'd guess no. If they were somewhere else probably.

Quote:

And why not?


My guess? They're in the way. A transit station is supposed to be designed to get you in and out quickly, when there's a bunch of clowns dancing around it slows down traffic and pisses people off. It's really not that different from getting caught in a traffic jam. I have my mornings pretty well timed out, I know when I need to get up and when I need to leave my house to get to work on time, when something gets in the way (be it a truck granny gearing it down the hill, assholes going 10 miles under the speed limit etc.) it annoys me.

Quote:

So, what is it about US culture that causes that result? What is it about US culture that makes people defensive in public?


Culture of physical separation? Culture of fear of crime? Culture of fear in general? Culture of persecution of those who are different?

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Friday, May 18, 2007 8:01 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


I’ve been thinking about this for a while. I’ve been to many countries. Stayed in many of them for extended periods of time. I’ve never seen anything to make me believe that the Americans are the most defensive and walled-off people in the world. Actually that sounds absurd to me, and I imagine that such statements have as much or more to do with personal prejudices then any sort of impartial assessment.

I’ve seen as many defensive people in London and Paris as I have in most major American cities. And of the large cities that I’ve stayed for several days or lived (which off the top of my head include London, Paris, Rome, New York, Detroit, DC, Memphis, Nashville, Atlanta, Huntsville, Birmingham (Al), Venice, Milan, Naples, Edinburgh, Dublin, Belfast and probably others I can’t remember) the only cities where I saw a large number of defensive people on the streets was Belfast and Derry. Although Detroit seemed to be as bad or maybe even worse then Belfast, but I don’t think I’ve ever been anywhere in Detroit that wasn’t a part of the hood. When I lived in Detroit, I was very, very poor. Those were the only cities where I felt that a number of people actually tried to avoid me and often cast very suspicious glances at me. And this was much worse then anything in the US outside of particularly bad neighborhoods. Of the others, none of them really stand out to much, though New York, Paris and London are perhaps marginally worse then others. In these three cities I encountered a number of very short tempered people (although despite its reputation Paris wasn’t nearly as bad as New York or London). The large cities where I felt the most welcome and where people were the friendliest was Venice, Dublin, Amsterdam and Nashville; with Venice being the most friendliest and pleasant.

I’ve also been to several small towns which include too many to actually try and name them all (and I don’t remember the names of all of them anyway) but I didn’t stay in most of them for very long. But which include towns in the Northern US states, Southern US states, Northern Ireland, Scotland, France and Italy. The only small towns outside of the US and Northern Ireland where I’ve spent any length of time was Saint Andrews (Scotland) and Beauvais (France). In small towns people tend to be much friendlier and life often seems to be more conservative and slower paced. All of these towns were actually pretty friendly and only one event of a particularly unfriendly person in France strikes me. But then again I rarely stayed in these towns for more then a day or so (I think I spent a whole two days in Saint Andrews and Beauvais) except for the Southern US and Northern Ireland, which tend to be comparable to each other.

In general, cities like Belfast and Derry, which have experienced a degree of civil strife, have the most defensive people in my experiences, but even then it’s not any kind of unbearable thing. The truth is that vast majority of people that I met in Belfast and Derry were very nice. Belfast in particular was real fun, since that was where I experienced my first terrorist bombing. Cities with very high population density (or perhaps it’s the number of tourists I don’t really know), like New York, Paris and London also seem to display a slightly elevated degree of defensiveness among commuters. The difference in defensiveness is most notable between urban and rural towns I think. There is something to be said of the culture too probably, but I think it’s probably a much lower order perturbation. The Italian, Irish and Southern American Cultures all seem to be friendlier and more outgoing then some others, and that might play a part in why the cities that I felt were the friendliest were in Italy, Ireland and the Southern US, but like I said, I think this is a much lower order affect, and it’s probably as likely that it’s coincidence. And the Dutch are so friendly you want smack to them, except for the Bus drivers for some reasons.

But anyway the only thing that I’m confident saying is that it is impossible to draw these kinds of generalizations based on “experiences.” There are too many variables and too much bias. Without a doubt I’ve never seen any broad generalization that can be made about Americans being the least friendly or most defensive country. It seems wrought with disaster to attempt to make that comparison within the US itself, much less to attempt that comparison with other countries. The only thing that I can say is that everywhere I’ve been most people, even France, were friendly and enjoyable.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 9:38 AM

RUE


Go to any large city at night and see how friendly the people are. That's where it really stands out.

This is why I think USers are defensive and why you can spot a Canadian in a crowd:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29000

America ranks low in 'Peace Index'

1 Norway
2 New Zealand
3 Denmark
4 Ireland
5 Japan
6 Finland
7 Sweden
8 Canada
9 Portugal
10 Austria
11 Belgium
12 Germany
13 Czech Republic
14 Switzerland
15 Slovenia
16 Chile
17 Slovakia
18 Hungary
19 Bhutan
20 Netherlands
21 Spain
22 Oman
23 Hong Kong
24 Uruguay
25 Australia
26 Romania
27 Poland
28 Estonia
29 Singapore
30 Qatar
31 Costa Rica
32 South Korea
33 Italy
34 France
35 Vietnam
36 Taiwan
37 Malaysia
38 United Arab Emirates
39 Tunisia
40 Ghana
41 Madagascar
42 Botswana
43 Lithuania
44 Greece
45 Panama
46 Kuwait
47 Latvia
48 Morocco
49 United Kingdom
50 Mozambique
51 Cyprus
52 Argentina
53 Zambia
54 Bulgaria
55 Paraguay
56 Gabon
57 Tanzania
58 Libya
59 Cuba
60 China
61 Kazakhstan
62 Bahrain
63 Jordan
64 Namibia
65 Senegal
66 Nicaragua
67 Croatia
68 Malawi
69 Bolivia
70 Peru
71 Equatorial Guinea
72 Moldova
73 Egypt
74 Dominican Republic
75 Bosnia and Hercegovina
76 Cameroon
77 Syria
78 Indonesia
79 Mexico
80 Ukraine
81 Jamaica
82 Macedonia
83 Brazil
84 Serbia
85 Cambodia
86 Bangladesh
87 Ecuador
88 Papua New Guinea
89 El Salvador
90 Saudi Arabia
91 Kenya
92 Turkey
93 Guatemala
94 Trinidad and Tobago
95 Yemen
96 United States of America
97 Iran
98 Honduras
99 South Africa
100 Philippines
101 Azerbaijan
102 Venezuela
103 Ethiopia
104 Uganda
105 Thailand
106 Zimbabwe
107 Algeria
108 Myanmar
109 India
110 Uzbekistan
111 Sri Lanka
112 Angola
113 Cote d' Ivoire
114 Lebanon
115 Pakistan
116 Colombia
117 Nigeria
118 Russia
119 Israel
120 Sudan
121 Iraq



http://www.le.ac.uk/pc/aw57/world/sample.html

Nation SWLS Score

DENMARK 273
SWITZERLAND 273
AUSTRIA 260
ICELAND 260
BAHAMAS 257
FINLAND 257
SWEDEN 257
BHUTAN 253
BRUNEI DARUSSALAM 253
CANADA 253
IRELAND 253
LUXEMBOURG 253
COSTA RICA 250
MALTA 250
NETHERLANDS 250
ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA 247
MALAYSIA 247
NEW ZEALAND 247
NORWAY 247
SEYCHELLES 247
ST KITTS AND NEVIS 247
UAE 247
USA 247
VANUATU 247
VENEZUELA 247
AUSTRALIA 243
BARBADOS 243
BELGIUM 243
DOMINICA 243
OMAN 243
SAUDI ARABIA 243
SURINAME 243
BAHRAIN 240
COLUMBIA 240
GERMANY 240
GUYANA 240
HONDURAS 240
KUWAIT 240
PANAMA 240
ST VINCENT AND THE 240
UNITED KINGDOM 237
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 233
GUATEMALA 233
JAMAICA 233
QATAR 233
SPAIN 233
ST LUCIA 233
BELIZE 230
CYPRUS 230
ITALY 230
MEXICO 230
SAMOA WESTERN 230
SINGAPORE 230
SOLOMON ISLANDS 230
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO 230
ARGENTINA 227
FIJI 223
ISRAEL 223
MONGOLIA 223
SAO TOME AND PERINI 223
EL SALVADOR 220
FRANCE 220
HONG KONG 220
INDONESIA 220
KYRGYZSTAN 220
MALDIVES 220
SLOVENIA 220
TAIWAN 220
TIMOR-LESTE 220
TONGA 220
CHILE 217
GRENADA 217
MAURITIUS 217
NAMIBIA 217
PARAGUAY 217
THAILAND 217
CZECH REPUBLIC 213
PHILIPPINES 213
TUNISIA 213
UZBEKISTAN 213
BRAZIL 210
CHINA 210
CUBA 210
GREECE 210
NICARAGUA 210
PAPUA NEW GUINEA 210
URUGUAY 210
GABON 207
GHANA 207
JAPAN 207
YEMEN 207
PORTUGAL 203
SRI LANKA 203
TAJIKISTAN 203
VIETNAM 203
IRAN 200
COMOROS 197
CROATIA 197
POLAND 197
CAPE VERDI 193
KAZAKHSTAN 193
MADAGASCAR 193
SOUTH KOREA 193
BANGLADESH 190
CONGO REPUBLIC 190
GAMBIA 190
HUNGARY 190
LIBYA 190
SOUTH AFRICA 190
CAMBODIA 187
ECUADOR 187
KENYA 187
LEBANON 187
MOROCCO 187
PERU 187
SENEGAL 187
BOLIVIA 183
HAITI 183
NEPAL 183
NIGERIA 183
TANZANIA 183
BENIN 180
BOTSWANA 180
GUINEA-BISSAU 180
INDIA 180
LAOS 180
MOZAMBIQUE 180
PALESTINE 180
SLOVAKIA 180
BURMA 177
MALI 177
MAURITANIA 177
TURKEY 177
ALGERIA 173
EQUATORIAL GUINEA 173
ROMANIA 173
BOSNIA & HERZE 170
CAMEROON 170
ESTONIA 170
GUINEA 170
JORDAN 170
SYRIA 170
SIERRA LEONE 167
AZERBAIJAN 163
CENTRAL AFRICAN RE 163
MACEDONIA 163
TOGO 163
ZAMBIA 163
ANGOLA 160
DJIBOUTI 160
EGYPT 160
BURKINA FASO 157
ETHIOPIA 157
LATVIA 157
LITHUANIA 157
UGANDA 157
ALBANIA 153
MALAWI 153
CHAD 150
IVORY COAST 150
NIGER 150
ERITREA 147
RWANDA 147
BULGARIA 143
LESOTHO 143
PAKISTAN 143
RUSSIA 143
SWAZILAND 140
GEORGIA 137
BELARUS 133
TURKMENISTAN 133
ARMENIA 123
SUDAN 120
UKRAINE 120
MOLDOVA 117
CONGO DEMOCRATIC 110
ZIMBABWE 110
BURUNDI 100

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