REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Warning Signs

POSTED BY: JONGSSTRAW
UPDATED: Sunday, April 29, 2007 09:28
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 9290
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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 1:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Prolly cause a lot of us don't find him offensive.

Overtly melodramatic and fulla sensationalism to a ridiculous degree ? sure.

Downright offensive ? rarely.

Incapable of rational thought or debate ? nope.

Remember, PN walked off with the win on the first Historical Trivia Challenge.

If he bugs ya just skim over the stuff and ignore it, but in truth if you're willing to wade through the sensationalism and melodrama, he does make some interesting points.

And scary that it may sound, on some of those wild allegations ? there's actually proof, which is downright scary - but there you have it.

If you wanna tag him with something, we could hit him up with "Official Tabloid Reporter", hehehe.

But really, I got no issue with him myself.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 1:33 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
How is kindly Agent whathisname? He hasn't been calling around to my house so much these days.

The irritable bowel syndrome is keeping him behind his desk these days.
Quote:


http://www.unitednuclear.com

I doubt they'll be selling samples large enough to build anything larger than a glow in the dark watch.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 1:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hey FremD,

I heard someone suggest insurance. To pay for medical/ restitution. I'm guessing that it would be like cars (in CA ~ 1/4 are uninsured) so maybe make the mfg insure the guns? Then it would be in their interest to sell only to qualified buyers.

What do you think?

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 1:57 PM

FLETCH2


Forcing people to take on any additional issurance comes too close to government mandated corporate welfare for my taste.

The answer to the problem is licensing with stiff penalties for anyone found to have an unlicenced weapon and a sentence multiplier applied to any crime commited with the aid of a gun. The problem with this is that the gun lobby will fight it all the way because

1) In THEIR interpretation of the second ammendment, the one that believes the mention of a well regulated militia is additional to the right to bear arms and not part of it, ANY form of regulation is none constitutional

and

2) They fear that once the government has that power they can use it to submarine a complete ban by simply restricting the issuing of licences.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 2:43 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Among industrialized nations, the USA crime rate sticks out like a sore thumb. What are we doing differently from them?



Easy, we're locking up everyone who does drugs, instead of treating the problem.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 2:59 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
If he bugs ya just skim over the stuff and ignore it, but in truth if you're willing to wade through the sensationalism and melodrama, he does make some interesting points.



Now if he would just make his points and leave out the melodrama instead of quoting 3 pages of text he would probably be a worthy contributor to the board. But as it is I just can't bring myself to wade through his posts and the melodrama makes it nearly impossible to take him seriously.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:13 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Prolly cause a lot of us don't find him offensive.

Overtly melodramatic and fulla sensationalism to a ridiculous degree ? sure.

Downright offensive ? rarely.

Incapable of rational thought or debate ? nope.

Remember, PN walked off with the win on the first Historical Trivia Challenge.

If he bugs ya just skim over the stuff and ignore it, but in truth if you're willing to wade through the sensationalism and melodrama, he does make some interesting points.

And scary that it may sound, on some of those wild allegations ? there's actually proof, which is downright scary - but there you have it.

If you wanna tag him with something, we could hit him up with "Official Tabloid Reporter", hehehe.

But really, I got no issue with him myself.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it



You're kidding, right?

He takes quotes out of context - like that English teacher's poem quoted above - and then uses that to support his demented theories. He regularly accusses people in politics and the media of hideous crimes, up to and including child torture and murder, and crows with glee whenever something unfortunate happens to them (see his recent post about Brittney's spectacular fall from grace.)

He regularly links to hate sites that demand that homosexuals be put to death. He claimed that the Columbine kilers were part of a Jewish conspiricy, and asked people they're religion before killing them (in fact they asked one girl if she believed in God and shot her when she said yes.) He even went so far as to say that people should claim to be Jewish if they're asked that question by a mass murderer.

How can you not find that kind of stuff offensive? Or how about we e-mail Nikki Giovanni and see if she finds his post in this thread offensive? What would the general reaction be if his post was mentioned on a news website? How many new browncoats would we get do you think?

Yes, I skim past his posts most of the time, and no, I'm not willing to wade past the sensationalism and melodrama to see his "interesting points" and I really don't care that he has a good knowledge of American history. Jumping on every news story to espouse your Jew-hating, homosexual-hating, Neopagan religious belief-hating "theories" as to why the devil worshipping, kid killing George Bush is responsible for everything that's wrong in the world is not tabloid and not acceptable. It's no less tasteless than the Westboro Baptist church planning to picket a VTech student's funeral. It's using the deaths of innocent people as an excuse to bash people you don't like.

I'm sorry, but if Kaneman gets an offensive tag then Piratenews should damn well get one too.





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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:52 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hi Desktop,

The reason I don't find PN offensive (even though his statements very much are) - is b/c he seems, well, one short of a full load. He could be standing on a street corner carrying a sign that says {the end is near}, or { John 3:16 } or some such.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:00 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Hi Desktop,

The reason I don't find PN offensive (even though his statements very much are) - is b/c he seems, well, one short of a full load. He could be standing on a street corner carrying a sign that says {the end is near}, or { John 3:16 } or some such.



Well, Cho was one short of a full load too. That doesn't make him any less of a murderer.

The stuff Piratenews posts is hurtful. Like I said, I can't even imagine what the reaction of Virginia Tech students would be if they read his posts in this and other recent threads, although I can guess. Being nuts doesn't give you the right to hurt people. It means steps should be taken to minimize the damage you do. In real life that wouldn't be wearing a warning label, but on a board pretty much the only thing you can do is warn people off reading someone's posts.





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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:31 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
The answer to the problem is licensing with stiff penalties for anyone found to have an unlicenced weapon and a sentence multiplier applied to any crime commited with the aid of a gun. The problem with this is that the gun lobby will fight it all the way because

1) In THEIR interpretation of the second ammendment, the one that believes the mention of a well regulated militia is additional to the right to bear arms and not part of it, ANY form of regulation is none constitutional

and

2) They fear that once the government has that power they can use it to submarine a complete ban by simply restricting the issuing of licences.


While the "Gun Lobby" usually fights licencing for your reason #2, they are very firm in supporting harsher penalties for the use of a weapon in the commission of a crime. BTW, there are already Federal sentence multipliers in place.

Quote:

A mandatory five-year prison term for using or carrying a firearm during a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime;
A mandatory fifteen-year prison term for felons in possession of a firearm who had three prior convictions for violent felonies or serious drug offenses;
A ten-year sentence enhancement for using a short-barreled rifle or shotgun, or a semiautomatic assault weapon, in a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime;
A thirty-year sentence enhancement for using a machine gun, destructive device, or firearm equipped with a silencer during a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime; and

A twenty-year prison term or life imprisonment for second or subsequent GCA offenses.





"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 5:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Hippie, I never said he wasn't offensive, I said that I rarely find him so, that's a different thing, and rarely doesn't mean never.

As for the accusations, yes, many of them seem to be ridiculous on the face, and even the ones where there is substantial evidence, he takes it to a ludicrous degree, sure.

Some of the stuff however, is addressed by no one else in any form, thus I am willing to tolerate him, gritting my teeth all the while.

Yes, there are times when he gets up my back too, never doubt it, and if want him flagged as such, by all means I am not debating your opinion on that - it's just that a lot of us see him as our pet version of the weekly world news and more amusing than directly offensive, is all.

I do however, feel the need to point out the dichotomy between your previous stance and statements on mental illness and your position here.

No offense whatsoever is meant by that, just that it'd be useful if you could clarify on that one a little bit, regarding an issue like this one.

-Frem

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 5:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Desktop: PN brings something to the discussion besides offensive screeds against the Jewish/ Masonic/ Communist/ British/ fill in the blank conspiracy. He's willing to bring up and tackle some of the outrages that have been committed by government; lunatic outrages that border on science fiction.

I had to look up MK/ULTRA, and while I don't think that it's an ongoing nation-wide mind-control program it was a heinous attempt at exactly that. I also happen to believe that some people in the Administration (Rove, Cheney) are sick bastards with superiority complexes bound by godawful perverted practices. (Just WHO do you think Guckert/ Gannon visited 100+ times at the WH?) So. yes, I think PN is one bottle short of a sixpack, but his ... erm... attitude.... allows him to consider things that we wouldn't even think of but maybe should, because not everyone in politics is sane.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:18 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
He's willing to bring up and tackle some of the outrages that have been committed by government.



The problem is, his freak show discredits the issue more than it 'tackles' it. It makes it easy for people to dismiss such claims out of hand.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


True, but I think the difference is that PN has a POV (even if whacky) while trolls simply do what trolls do. I personally think it's a shame that a troll was flagged. It would have been a useful and good lesson for some of us (ahem!) on how not to mud wrestle with pigs. We shouldn't need a nanny to keep us from having to deal with trolls. I draw the line at threats and pictures you wouldn't want your kids to see. (You can scan pix a lot faster than you can read and some pix, once seen, remain forever.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:22 AM

FLETCH2


Those are additions to sentences, in effect additional charges. What I am talking of is an actual multiplier, you serve twice the time if you use a gun. So say you rob a bank, carjack a getaway vehicle (without taking hostages) and flee. By your math you might get 10 years for the bank, 3 years for the car plus 5 years for the gun, total 18 years. I'm saying double the sentence for gun use or (10+3) x2 or 26 years.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:58 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Hippie, I never said he wasn't offensive, I said that I rarely find him so, that's a different thing, and rarely doesn't mean never.

As for the accusations, yes, many of them seem to be ridiculous on the face, and even the ones where there is substantial evidence, he takes it to a ludicrous degree, sure.

Some of the stuff however, is addressed by no one else in any form, thus I am willing to tolerate him, gritting my teeth all the while.

Yes, there are times when he gets up my back too, never doubt it, and if want him flagged as such, by all means I am not debating your opinion on that - it's just that a lot of us see him as our pet version of the weekly world news and more amusing than directly offensive, is all.

I do however, feel the need to point out the dichotomy between your previous stance and statements on mental illness and your position here.

No offense whatsoever is meant by that, just that it'd be useful if you could clarify on that one a little bit, regarding an issue like this one.

-Frem



Gorrammit! I missed this completely and now I'm in a hurry and won't be nearly as articulate as you guys.

Okay, as far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter how much truth there is to his posts (and personally, having on occasion clicked on every single sodding link just to see what the hell he was on about, I've never come accross anything that could be remotely described as true) he's still offensive. In fact, he's downright bigoted. So if we're going to tag offensive posters as offensive, then he should be on the list.

Why am I keen to label a poster when I'm set against labelling people in real life? I said that labelling Cho would have caused a lot more harm than good. That being said, he should have been monitored and given the psychiatric help he needed so he didn't hurt anyone. That didn't happen. We can't send PN to see a shrink, but tagging him means that sensitive posters can avoid him and newbies know he doesn't reflect the opinions of the board in general.

Should we tag posters at all? I think we'd survive without tagging - we have this long - but I guess Haken just got fed up with repeat trolling.

I know you guys are thick skinned enough to find PN funny, I just think that if we *are* going to label offensive posters as such then having an agenda shouldn't make you immune.





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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:36 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I know you guys are thick skinned enough to find PN funny ..."

Hmm ... On the one hand, tolerating anti-Jewish - British - German - etc rants. On the other, showing some compassion for a person who appears to not be able to help himself. (Note: NOT getting cheap amusement at that person's predicament.)

I opt for compassion. As to trolls of the other type - trolls by avocation - it's too bad they just can't be automatically routed to troll country. Such is life.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

As to trolls of the other type - trolls by avocation - it's too bad they just can't be automatically routed to troll country. Such is life.
But what a lesson they could teach us!

Here we have a little community where most of us know each other individually. We know who is likely to respond in what way and their particular issues. Since our interactions are electronic they're totally harmless and mediated by time, eliminating the need to "stand up to" someone who may be significantly larger and louder. It's the perfect opportunity to develop self-control and group awareness. We really shouldn't need "authority" to deal with trolls; trust me, I've been there and done that with similar groups and while asking someone to be banned is a lot quicker (altho they often come back under different guises) NOT FEEDING THE TROLLS is just as effective if not more so. Honest!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:13 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Developing a cohesive response takes a long time. It calls for communicating well-enough that people see the wisdom of ALL doing the same thing. And in fact, it has worked in RWE in the past, when a couple of people were commonly called trolls - one quickly reformed and one disappeared for a long time, only to come back apparently reformed. But it got overdone, and created dispute over who was a troll, what was trolling ... so, in the interim, maybe it would be a nice break IF a couple of 'offensive' posters could be re-routed. (Not that it would happen, just that it would be nice. )

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Developing a cohesive response takes a long time
So what? We got lots of time. And the nice part about it is, trolls are so damn predictable that if we don't get it right the first 200 times we can always try again!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:18 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I guess the difference is this: you can either 'shun' the person into social compliance as a group, or you can get the sheriff to enforce rules for you. For human responsibility, education and a good sense about it, it's probably better to do it as a group. But that wasn't happening so people PM'd to ask to have them banned. Them getting tagged as offensive was the least that could have happened. And at least it warns the reader.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:11 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Those are additions to sentences, in effect additional charges. What I am talking of is an actual multiplier, you serve twice the time if you use a gun. So say you rob a bank, carjack a getaway vehicle (without taking hostages) and flee. By your math you might get 10 years for the bank, 3 years for the car plus 5 years for the gun, total 18 years. I'm saying double the sentence for gun use or (10+3) x2 or 26 years.



What they really are is Federal charges on top of any State charges. Robbery and carjacking are generally State, not Federal, crimes. Most State laws already have more severe sentencing for armed crimes than unarmed ones. The Federal charges are the icing on the cake, adding additional time just for the act of using a gun in the commission of any violent or drug-related crime.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:26 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
I'm sorry, but if Kaneman gets an offensive tag then Piratenews should damn well get one too.




DTH, you know I love you, but I have to disagree. PN seems to me, as to others, to be a brick short of a chimney. He reminds me of a homeless conspiracy theorist that I once knew. I ignore most of what he writes. KM on the other hand is very aware of what he/she is doing and does it deliberately. One does not know better and the other does. That is the difference.


As for the original reason for this post, Cho IS the bad guy. But society failed him in not getting him the help he so obviously needed. How did he fall thtrough the cracks and how do we prevent it in the future?


edited cause I can't spell and don't have my glasses so I can't see either!
edited again because geezus I need some freakin glasses, a dictionary and a thesaurus!


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:30 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Cho IS the bad guy. But society failed him in not getting him the help he so obviously needed. How did he fall thtrough the cracks and how do we prevent it in the future?



Wow... to think I wasted so much typing when it could have been put so succinctly. Thanks! :)

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:35 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Cho IS the bad guy. But society failed him in not getting him the help he so obviously needed. How did he fall thtrough the cracks and how do we prevent it in the future?



Wow... to think I wasted so much typing when it could have been put so succinctly. Thanks! :)

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock






---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:05 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
I'm sorry, but if Kaneman gets an offensive tag then Piratenews should damn well get one too.




DTH, you know I love you, but I have to disagree. PN seems to me, as to others, to be a brick short of a chimney. He reminds me of a homeless conspiracy theorist that I once knew. I ignore most of what he writes. KM on the other hand is very aware of what he/she is doing and does it deliberately. One does not know better and the other does. That is the difference.



Hmmm... maybe my main issue is that I've never been able to shake the feeling that he's putting it on. It's nothing in particular, just little things here and there that make me think he's basically just trying to stir stuff up. Like telling us we should pretend to be Jewish if we're asked our religion by a mass murderer. Someone who's obsessed with devil worship and the apocalypse would never say that, since from their point of view it's telling people to deny Christ.

Of course I know it's probably stupid to look for rational behaviour in a crazy person but, heck, I did mention I've one of the crazies so I don't have to be rational either

And like I said, being nuts doesn't give you the right to hurt people. Not in real life and not online.

Quote:


As for the original reason for this post, Cho IS the bad guy. But society failed him in not getting him the help he so obviously needed. How did he fall thtrough the cracks and how do we prevent it in the future?



Like I said - a well funded, well run mental health service and a general willingness to talk about mental health issues instead of refusing to ever mention it and stigmatising anyone who has it. Not that Ireland is a wonderful paradise Island where these things happen, far from it, but I still stand by my opinion.





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Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

How did he fall thtrough the cracks and how do we prevent it in the future?

I am still of the opinion that someone fumbled the ball regarding the Tarasoff protocol and should be held in part responsible and accountable, for being criminally negligent.

No system works 100% of the time, but this was an inexcusable failure.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:10 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


What stuck out for me was the outpatient service saying it isn't their job to police patients and make them attend therapy when it *is*. If someone is ordered to attend a clinic and doesn't show they have a duty to report it. They didn't. This is a horrible reminder of what happens when you focus on the numbers and not the individuals.





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Thursday, April 26, 2007 3:17 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
What stuck out for me was the outpatient service saying it isn't their job to police patients and make them attend therapy when it *is*. If someone is ordered to attend a clinic and doesn't show they have a duty to report it. They didn't. This is a horrible reminder of what happens when you focus on the numbers and not the individuals.



There was an interesting discussion on the issue of severe mental illness yesterday on the Diane Rehm Show from our local NPR station. Had the Director of NIMH and two other professionals. They basically admitted that there is no "mental health system" as such in the US, and that response to severe mental illness has declined greatly since the '60s and '70s. Among other things, they noted that, pretty much by default, the police have become the first responders for serious mental health problems, since emergency rooms are unprepared or unwilling to deal with people who come in hearing voices or incoherent.

You can listen to a playback of the show here:

http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/07/04/25.php#15344

BTW, I love Diane Rehm's voice.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 3:40 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Here's the REAL reason for the massacres:

Quote:


Report: Cho Hired an Escort Before Rampage

Roanoke Woman Says She Told FBI Killer Was 'Dorky,' 'Timid' and a 'Little Pushy'

Seung-Hui Cho hired her to dance for him in a motel room one month before the massacre at Virginia Tech's campus, dancer Chastity Frye said in an on camera interview with a TV station in Roanoke, Va.

"He was so quiet. I really couldn't get much from him. He was so distant. He really didn't like to talk a lot," Frye said in the interview. "It seemed like he wasn't all there."

Frye said that a "creepy" Cho, 23, called the escort service she works for and hired her to meet him for one hour at a Roanoke motel, about a 30-minute drive from Virginia Tech's Blacksburg campus.

About 15 minutes into the performance for Cho, Frye said, it appeared that her client had no interest.

"I danced for a little while and I thought we were done because he got up and went to the restroom and began washing," said Frye, a white woman with blond hair.

Frye told WSLS that she told Cho she was going to leave, to which he responded that he had paid for a full hour and she had only performed 15 minutes.

When she resumed dancing, Frye said that Cho touched her and tried "to get on" her before she pushed him away. Cho then apparently respected her wishes.

Frye said she thought Cho looked familiar when she saw his face in the coverage of the Virginia Tech killings. Cho fatally shot 32 people and then himself on April 16.

She got a call from the FBI, which she said tracked her down through Cho's credit card receipts.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/VATech/story?id=3071730&page=1



Somebody is lying. Escorts are prostitutes, as prosecutors prove in courts every day, when crooked copsters pay millions of taxdollars for hardcore sex, and return for more more more before making an arrest and shaking down the mafias to run extortion blackmail rackets.

If this escort/stripper/prostitute is lying about sex, then she has zero credibility about Cho's real personality. He might be as outgoing as CIA employee Mohammed Atta when confronted by nekked strippers dancing in his lap (or his doppleganger double).

Or perhaps the moral of this story is that college girls should only be taught how to be sexed-up housewives as their only allowed major, in order to prevent school shootings?




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Thursday, April 26, 2007 5:17 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
If this escort/stripper/prostitute is lying about sex, then she has zero credibility about Cho's real personality...



EVERYONE lies about sex. Just sayin'

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 7:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Mental health issues revolve around two critical points: funding and involuntary commitment. I've seen involuntary commitment abuses, one was the involuntary commitment of a girl who had an abortion when abortions were illegal. The other is funding: NO program will work, whether it's community health centers or Federally-run institutions, w/o the proper funding. But the vision of ready involuntary commitment coupled with lack of funding raises the nightmare of the "insane asylums" of old, where people of various pathologies -or none- are thrown together in desperate situations and ignored ad infinitum. (Kind of like our jails today.)

It would also be useful to try and understand WHY we have so many pathologically violent people in our culture. If you look at Death Row prisoners, about half of them are brain damaged or mentally ill: fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS), in utero exposure to other drugs, childhood abuse, accidental head trauma, schizophrenia, mental retardation, severe depression.

I think it's perfectly useless- and therefore perfectly idiotic- to apply phrases like "evil" or "bad" to people who commit heinous crimes. It's about as useful as saying "It's the devil's work" and blowing holy smoke at them. When I first about heard about Andrea Yates - when everyone was gasping about what an evil mother she was- my first reaction was to wonder what the hell went wrong with her.

That is not to say that there shouldn't be consequences. But I have to say that incarceration doesn't seem to be very effective consequence.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 7:39 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I personally believe it's b/c the US has an essentially sociopathic economy/ culture. You see the fallout effects on brain organization and development most where the effects are most felt - the poorest and least powerful.

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:59 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Mental health issues revolve around two critical points: funding and involuntary commitment.



And they're both so intertwined. Back in the late '60s my psych class went to a mental hospital on a field trip, and it was pretty grim. On the other hand, here in DC I see plenty of folks who were "mainstreamed" out of institutions, and who don't have the ability to take care of themselves, let alone get medication or other treatment on their own. Every winter they freeze to death on the streets because it's illegal for social services to take them to a shelter if they don't want to go.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:22 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Sig and Rue seem to have nailed the salient points, with a nod to Geeze here.

The question is, what to do about it ?

My thought is that early intervention is utterly critical, and we should make Child Protective Services something more than a lame joke, but that runs into another can of worms I don't have time to go into at the moment.
(And upon serious investigation touches on some ultra-creepyness of the PN stripe concerning CPS TX and FL, but that for another thread, please..)

Anyhows, I am in full agreement with Vachss on this, we need to get serious on the "Front Line" because clean-up after the fact doesn't solve the problem - preventing the trouble in the first place does.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:31 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

It would also be useful to try and understand WHY we have so many pathologically violent people in our culture. If you look at Death Row prisoners, about half of them are brain damaged or mentally ill: fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS), in utero exposure to other drugs, childhood abuse, accidental head trauma, schizophrenia, mental retardation, severe depression.

I think it's perfectly useless- and therefore perfectly idiotic- to apply phrases like "evil" or "bad" to people who commit heinous crimes. It's about as useful as saying "It's the devil's work" and blowing holy smoke at them. When I first about heard about Andrea Yates - when everyone was gasping about what an evil mother she was- my first reaction was to wonder what the hell went wrong with her.



Are you saying George Bush is a madman (to quote Tony BLiar's memo that's currently on trial)? Are you saying he's braindamaged or schitzo? Or is a serial killer cured when his bodycount reaches over 600,000? After all, he was a member in a Satanic narco human-sacrifice cult in Brownsville Texas / Matamores Mexico, as seen on Court TV this week ("Springbreaks from Hell"), led by a wealthy Mexican drug dealer, Adolfo Jesus Constanzo. Bush Jr was a member of this cult, investigated for the ritual serial killings by the attorney general of Texas, during Bush's cocaine and DWI conviction years.

Quote:


Spring Break

Still, the two remained in jail while detectives quizzed a caretaker at the ranch. The caretaker readily named other members of the Hernandez drug syndicate as frequent visitors what was known as Rancho Santa Elena. Another one-time visitor was none other than Mark Kilroy, identified from a school photograph. In custody, Serafin Hernandez freely admitted participating in Kilroy’s abduction and murder--one of many committed over the past year or so at Rancho Santa Elena. The slayings were human sacrifices, he explained, executed to secure occult protection for various drug deals. “It’s our religion,” Hernandez explained. “Our voodoo.”

Hernandez identified the leader of his cult--El Padrino, the Godfather--as Adolfo de Jesus Constanzo, a master practitioner of the African magic called “palo mayombe.” It was Constanzo who ordered the slayings, Hernandez explained, and El Padrino who tortured and sodomized the victims prior to killing them and harvesting their organs for his ritual cauldron.

Police returned to the ranch with Hernandez in tow. He readily pointed out the cult’s private graveyard and then when asked, used a shovel to unearth the first of 12 bodies buried in a tidy row. All the victims were men. Some had been shot at close range and others hacked to death with a machete. One of the bodies was Mark Kilroy, his skull split open, his brain missing.

www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/constanzo/1.html


The only convicted serial killer who won survival on death row thanks to governor Bush Jr was cannibal pedophile Henry Lee Lucas. His cannibal pedophile partner was Ottis Toole, who confessed to chopping the head off Adam Walsh, son of John Walsh of America's Most Wanted TV show. But prosecutors refused to allow prosecution of Lucas for the murder of Adam Walsh. Lucan and Toole were employees of CIA's Black Hand narco death cult of mindcontrolled assassins. It's alleged by police that John Walsh was a drug dealer in the Bahamas, and his son was deliberately targeted as retaliation, for daring to compete with the CIA in the drug trade.
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/03/henry-portrait-of-bush-s
upporter.html


Bush is also a member in the Satanic human sacrifice cult at Bohemian Grove, as proven in courts by Senator John deCamp. Bohemian Grove is where Hunter S Thompson videotaped snuff kiddie porn before blowing his brains out the week "Jeff Gannon" came out of the Bush White House closet.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6497462494231069386&hl=en-GB

For the Butcher of Bagdad Bush to go to Virginia Tech and fake the eulogy is like massmurdering serial killer Ted Bundy attending the funerals of his murder victims. Both are psychopaths.

At most, only 1% of psychopaths ever get arrested for their murders. Over 2.5-million US citizens are murdered every year in USA today...
www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_01.htm




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Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:44 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The question is, what to do about it ?



I still think there's much to be said for addressing the gauntlet that these kids are forced through. It's hard for most of us to remember, once we're out on our own, but the overwhelming feeling these kids get in school is that they will never find a place in the world. We present to them a bizarre 'Lord of the Flies' social dynamic and tell them it's their salvation, that it's the way the world is. They need to know it's not real. They need to know there are other options.

I'm not convinced that all, or even most, of what's happening in these cases is a matter of inborn insanity. There's a distinct different between innate mental illness, and those who've 'cracked' under pressure. Obviously, and thankfully, most people have a breaking point a good bit higher than the Chos of the world, but the fact remains - they are pushed into corners and they can't see a way out. Our educational system turns up the volume on this kind of problem, rather than alleviating it.

Cynical adults see this as somehow tempering the kids for a demanding world. I don't buy it for a minute. It took me years to 'unlearn' the lessons of my schooling, years of anger, bitterness and lost opportunity trying to deal with a world that seemed insane. Worse yet, it was a world that wasn't even real. The socialization that public schools provide, in my opinion, is the worst possible sort and is directly contributing to these tragedies.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, April 26, 2007 7:12 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


VIDEO DOWNLOAD:

Quote:


THE FUKIN NEWSZ 20 APR 2007

V Tech Headlies with Deek Jackson: Cho's MKULTRA brainchiped killing spree

www.surfingtheapocalypse.tv/satire.php



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Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:58 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Do YOU exhibit warning signs?
Quote:


VIDEO: Are YOU a Manchurian Candidate?

By Dr Nick Begich PhD, whose Congressman father was "disappeared" and assassinated during Watergate, along with Congressman Hale Boggs, who was on the Warren Magic Bullet Commission. Nick Begich's brother, Mark Begich, is the current mayor of Anchorage, Alaska.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2497840938718341112

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Begich



Did the campus cops test Cho for a brainchip? Could the campus cops find their head up their ass?

Quote:


"Mr. Chairman: In my letter to you of July 15, 1977, I reported our recent discovery of seven boxes of documents related to Project MKULTRA, a closely held CIA project conducted from 1953-1964. As you may recall, MKULTRA was an "umbrella project" under which certain sensitive subprojects were funded, involving among other things research on drugs and behavioral modification. During the Rockefeller Commission and Church Committee investigations in 1975, the cryptonym became publicly known when details of the drug-related death of Dr. Frank Olsen were publicized. In 1953 Dr. Olsen, a civilian employee of the Army at Fort Detrick, leaped to his death from a hotel room window in New York City about a week after having unwittingly consumed LSD administered to him as an experiment at a meeting of LSD researchers called by CIA. Most of what was known about the Agency's involvement with behavioral drugs during the investigations in 1975 was contained in a report on Project MKULTRA prepared by the Inspector General's office in 1963. As a result of that report's recommendations, unwitting testing of drugs on U.S. citizens was subsequently discontinued. The MKULTRA-related report was made available to the Church Committee investigators and to the staff of Senator Kennedy's Subcommittee on Health. Until the recent discovery, it was believed that all of the MKULTRA files dealing with behavioral modification had been destroyed in 1973 on the orders of the then retiring Chief of the Office of Technical Service, with the authorization of the DCI, as has been previously reported. Almost all of the people who had had any connection with the aspects of the project which interested Senate investigators in 1975 were no longer with the Agency at that time. Thus, there was little detailed knowledge of the MKULTRA subprojects available to CIA during the Church Committee investigations. The 1963 Inspector General report on MKULTRA made available to both the Church Committee and Senator Kennedy's Subcommittee mentions electro-shock and harassment substances (pp. 4, 16); covert testing on unwitting U.S. citizens (pp. 7, 10-12); the search for new materials through arrangements with specialists in universities, pharmaceutical houses, hospitals, state and federal institutions, and private research organizations (pp. 7, 9); and the fact that the Technical Service Division of CIA had initiated 144 subprojects related to the control of human behavior between 1953-1963 (p. 21)."
-Admiral Stansfield Turner, Director of Central Intelligence, U.S. Senate Hearing on MKULTRA, 1973
www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/e1950/mkultra/index.htm

"QKHILLTOP was a cryptonym assigned in 1954 to a project to study Chinese Communist brainwashing techniques and to develop interrogation techniques. Most of the early studies are believed to have been conducted by the Cornell University Medical School Human Ecology Study Programs. The effort was absorbed into the MKULTRA program and the QKHILLTOP cryptonym became obsolete."
-U.S. Senate Hearing on MKULTRA, Appendix C, QKHILLTOP DEFINITION, 1973
www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/e1950/mkultra/AppendixC.htm

"The concepts involved in manipulating behavior are found by many people both within and outside the Agency to be distasteful and unethical. Nevertheless, there have been major accomplishments both in research and operational employment. Over the ten-year life of the program many additional avenues to the control of human behavior have been designated under the MKULTRA charter, including radiation, electro-shock, and harassment substances. Some activities raise questions of legality implicit in the original charter. A final phase of the testing places the rights and interests of US citizens in jeopardy. Technical Services Division initiated a program for covert testing of materials on unwitting US citizens in 1955. TSD has pursued a philosophy of minimum documentation in keeping with the high sensitivity of the projects. Some files contained little or no data at all. There are just two individuals in TSD who have full knowledge of the MKULTRA program, and most of that knowledge is unrecorded."
-MEMORANDUM FOR: Director of Central Intelligence
FROM: CIA Inspector General, NB 108-113, 26 July 1963
www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol#_ednref13

"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective. Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electrical stimulation of the brain."
-Dr. Jose Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School prof and CIA mind control scientist, Congressional Record, No 26, vol 118 February 24th, 1974



"'They're hurting us. Get me out!' The Government was playing with her brain. They opened up her skull and cut into her brain. The only reason you do that is to lobotomize somebody. They did it over, and over..."
-Dr Simon Tam, Firefly


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Friday, April 27, 2007 1:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Amen to that, Sarge.

Our whole "education" system does nothing of the sort, I'd say the ratio of learned from school versus encyclopedia britannica in my case was about 20/80, and that's being generous.

And I learned a lot of "values" like hate, bitterness and what I call survival-sociopathy that took years to overcome, some never manage.

Unfortunately, and I know it's upsetting to admit this, many large corporations DO have those social dynamics, and thus said public school "education" is of value within them.

But I think the very worst flaw is that public schools teach above all NOT to think, NOT to create, and NOT to innovate, only to obey, and never to question - starting with that damn near fascist "pledge" of theirs that creeped me out so badly as a kid.

Whatever it is in a childs mind that drives them to conform, to belong, I was born without it, and I thank my lucky stars that I was, or I woulda never survived public school.

We need to dismantle the whole system and rebuild it with something that teaches kids to THINK, to learn, and to skeptically compare data.

A shout out to Ms. Chaffinch, if yer out there, for buckin the tide - score one for the forces of good, in her case.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007
042900133.html?hpid=topnews

Switzerland, a country of 7.5 million people with an estimated 2 million or more guns in circulation, sits as a heavily armed exception in the heart of Europe, where most countries have strict gun-control laws. Virtually all able-bodied Swiss men are required to serve in the military, which issues them assault rifles or pistols, or both, which they store at home and keep when they leave the service.

The Geneva-based Small Arms Survey estimates that the country has 46 guns per 100 people, which puts it behind only the United States, with 90 guns per 100 people; Yemen, with 61; and Finland, with 56 -- and just ahead of Iraq with 39.

Switzerland's total number of gun deaths, including accidents, in 2005 was 6.2 per 100,000 citizens, which was second only to the U.S. rate of 9.42 per 100,000. Switzerland's rate of gun deaths was more than double that of 18 of the countries surveyed, including neighbors Germany and Italy.

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