REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hillary Sipped Champagne While 800,000 Rwandans Were Slaughtered And Raped

POSTED BY: JONGSSTRAW
UPDATED: Friday, November 26, 2021 06:06
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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:46 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:

Quote:

you should never justify poor behavior & leadership by comparison to other poor behavior & leadership.


Yea...but...then what will we do for fun around here???? I mean in RWED, 2 wrongs do make a right you know!.

Only one thing though Ed, all sides are doing it, though I can't site the example, you probably do too, correct me if I'm wrong. It happens all the time out there in the world politics, why shouldn't it happen here.


"The world is still turning and you're on it....count yourself lucky" My Dad, 2007.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:52 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Malbadinlatin:
I mean in RWED, 2 wrongs do make a right you know!.



The implication being that there is a place where that isn't true?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:48 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
(satellites are predictable and thus avoidable)

Yeah but you do have to know the orbits, and one would hope the top secret US military spy satellites are, well, top secret.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:15 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
(satellites are predictable and thus avoidable)

Yeah but you do have to know the orbits, and one would hope the top secret US military spy satellites are, well, top secret.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:37 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar


There's a lot of crap up there Fred, which dot is which?

You also don't have many people that the US will need to recon that has access to that sort of kit.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:43 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

There's a lot of crap up there Fred, which dot is which?



Yeah, that's why not just everyone with a radio shack radar set can track satellites, but there are methods to determining which is which. The most basic is just watching rockets that go up and paying attention to whether or not commercial interests have been announcing satellite launches. There are other methods too for instance geosynchronous satellites are almost worthless for spying, SIGINT can be used to figure out which satellites are sending which kinds of data etc. etc. It isn't easy to find spy satellites but it's doable with a fair degree of accuracy.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:44 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
You also don't have many people that the US will need to recon that has access to that sort of kit.



True, but I'm betting that the Russians and Chinese will have no compunctions about selling the info for a fair price.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:47 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Yeah, that's why not just everyone with a radio shack radar set can track satellites, but there are methods to determining which is which. The most basic is just watching rockets that go up and paying attention to whether or not commercial interests have been announcing satellite launches. There are other methods too for instance geosynchronous satellites are almost worthless for spying, SIGINT can be used to figure out which satellites are sending which kinds of data etc. etc. It isn't easy to find spy satellites but it's doable with a fair degree of accuracy.

I submit that it isn't as easy as you seem to make out, if it was the US wouldn't spend billions of dollars designing building and deploying them.

Well unless they were under the perview of psyops but they're not.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:56 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I submit that it isn't as easy as you seem to make out, if it was the US wouldn't spend billions of dollars designing building and deploying them.



Well finding them is only part of it, shooting down satellites is still damn hard, so if you find one all you can do is hide your most sensitive stuff from it. Even then you can't hide everything, you can't hide major troop movements, new base construction and the like. This is why recon planes, SIGINT and HUMINT are still critical. Satellites are useful tools but by themselves can't provide complete intelligence.

Additionally, we throw trillions of dollars at the military every year, why wouldn't they spend it on cool toys?

However you are right, I did simplify things a bit on purpose, I think the real difficulty is somewhere between what I pointed out and what you seem to think.

Also, I was wrong earlier, geosynchronous satellites are useful for SIGINT, but not for direct observation.

SIGINT=Signals Intelligence=listening to the radio
HUMINT=Human Intelligence=oxymoron (really it means traditional spying)

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:15 PM

CITIZEN


I work for the military I know what SIGNIT is . Anyway I doubt the Russians know much anyway, they've been effectivly out of the game too long, and even during the 80's British intelligence was cracking Russian code because they were still using human cyphered Russian morse long after NATO had switched to machine crypto.

I can't really talk for the Chinese, they're more of an unknown variable.

The other thing to remember is that it is entirely possible to produce an unbreakable cypher, just not particularly practical for most communications.

If I were an intelligence agency I'd be sending up my spy satellites as part of civilian satillites or military ones, or just you know, lie. Is anyone going to go up there and check that that brand new professional baseball satellite has actually got spysat™ stickers on it?

Not that I know whether or not that's actually how they do it, but it's how I'd do it, you can't hide from every satellite in the sky even using Tom Clancy's Patriot Games tricks. Having said that the way military intelligence works sometimes I wouldn't be surprised if the satellites broadcast a SpySat locator signal and came with a neon "SpySat here sign".



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:39 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I work for the military I know what SIGNIT is .



Ah, well I didn't know if you did and I know that there are people reading this thread who don't so...

Quote:

Anyway I doubt the Russians know much anyway, they've been effectivly out of the game too long,


But a lot of the sats that are up there were there when they were still riding high. It's possible (probable?) that they aren't spending nearly as much on intelligence as they were, but they still have a powerful intelligence service and military.

Quote:

and even during the 80's British intelligence was cracking Russian code because they were still using human cyphered Russian morse long after NATO had switched to machine crypto.


Yeah, the Russians lagged behind in a lot of things for a long time.

Quote:

I can't really talk for the Chinese, they're more of an unknown variable.


Which is unfortunate, we are spending so much time and energy on Iraq and ignoring the real threats.

Quote:

The other thing to remember is that it is entirely possible to produce an unbreakable cypher, just not particularly practical for most communications.


Practically unbreakable yes, theoretically unbreakable no (IIRC, crypto isn't my area of expertise but I've heard that any reusable system is breakable).

Quote:

If I were an intelligence agency I'd be sending up my spy satellites as part of civilian satillites or military ones, or just you know, lie.


And I'm sure this is done, but analysis would show that the radio patterns, orbit, and circumstances of launch point towards a spysat, they won't know absolutely, but they can be pretty sure. There are other ways as well, like letting a satellite see something interesting and checking with your moles to see if it turns up.

Quote:

Is anyone going to go up there and check that that brand new professional baseball satellite has actually got spysat™ stickers on it?


No no no, we put "You can't see me I'm invisible" and "definitely NOT a spy satellite" stickers on them.

Quote:

Not that I know whether or not that's actually how they do it, but it's how I'd do it, you can't hide from every satellite in the sky even using Tom Clancy's Patriot Games tricks.


Right, you can rarely be positive that you've made a proper ID, but you can usually work it out to a certain degree.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:42 PM

FREDGIBLET


@ jongsstraw

Sorry for the threadjack

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:53 PM

JONGSSTRAW


I just want to thank ALL the Firefly Fan posters here for their intelligent & thoughtful posts...I am really honored to be a small part of such a distinguished group of thinkers!

Truth is I kind of like Hillary actually...I admire her spunk; I admire her strength in dealing with her "husband" and his little indescretions...many women would have collapsed under that type of personal pressure & anguish.

And yes, as someone here pointed out, I DID watch the Rwanda movie on HBO and that DID trigger this post...I frikkin' cried watching it. Darfur...YES...We MUST do something! Now that ALL the bullshit reasons for invading Iraq have been exposed as ( fill in the blank???) and Bush & gang are left with "humanitarian" reasons only, the Darfur situation becomes even more imperative. How can America, England, & the world just sit by and let it happen again?


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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:57 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
How can America, England, & the world just sit by and let it happen again?



We're a bunch of sick bastards who like to watch?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:15 PM

JONGSSTRAW


We are? I'm not...you're not. What the hell was the UN created for if not this? Are we AFRAID of these Junga-Muslim mutherfuggers?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:21 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
We are? I'm not...you're not. What the hell was the UN created for if not this? Are we AFRAID of these Junga-Muslim mutherfuggers?



As I understand it, most countries aren't getting involved because they have business reasons to support the current Sudanese government (which supports the massacre). I can't give specifics because I read it a while ago and wasn't paying too close of attention.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:31 PM

JONGSSTRAW


If you're correct that makes it even worse! Sudanese Government, schmoodanese government...screw them! Humanity comes first!

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:02 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The US and other countries DO have a very powerful weapon against the Sudanese government - it's called economic sanctions. Unfortunately the US (and other countries) continue a divided approach - decry the inhumanity on the right, and pass money on the left.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

How can America, England, & the world just sit by and let it happen again?

Because we don't care ?

Sorry dude, until we get the horrific mess HERE sorted out, I ain't too interested in other peoples problems.

As for Hillary, I despise her as much as I ever did Tipper Gore, and John Ashcroft, and for much the same reasons - practice whatever morality you wish on yourself, but be damned before you push it on me, and be double-twice-damned if you want the legal system to enforce it against me for you.

If I was gonna reccommend a woman for president, it would be Jennie Granholm, who's overall done the best job she could with the disaster that ratbastard Engler left us with.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:59 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
screw them! Humanity comes first!



Hmmmmm... novel idea but I don't think it's going to catch on.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:26 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Practically unbreakable yes, theoretically unbreakable no (IIRC, crypto isn't my area of expertise but I've heard that any reusable system is breakable).

Any finite key system is theoretically breakable as the key is reused so the underlying entropy of the data stream can remain to some extent, which is why it's also a good idea to use compression on encypted signals. Not only does it make the signal shorter so harder to intercept but it also destroys a lot of the entropy. But yes all block cyphers (such as AES) are theoretically breakable. Though not all practical code schemes are, there are coded messages from Russian agents in the 50's that will never be broken because they use a message length random private key.
Quote:

No no no, we put "You can't see me I'm invisible" and "definitely NOT a spy satellite" stickers on them.




More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:01 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Practically unbreakable yes, theoretically unbreakable no (IIRC, crypto isn't my area of expertise but I've heard that any reusable system is breakable).

Any finite key system is theoretically breakable as the key is reused so the underlying entropy of the data stream can remain to some extent, which is why it's also a good idea to use compression on encypted signals. Not only does it make the signal shorter so harder to intercept but it also destroys a lot of the entropy. But yes all block cyphers (such as AES) are theoretically breakable. Though not all practical code schemes are, there are coded messages from Russian agents in the 50's that will never be broken because they use a message length random private key.



Is your interest in crypto purely vocational or personal as well? If it's personal may I suggest Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson if you haven't read it already? Its historical accuracy is likely marginal since it deals with stuff some of which is probably even now classified (and because it's fiction) but either way it's a great book.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:01 AM

MARINA


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The US and other countries DO have a very powerful weapon against the Sudanese government - it's called economic sanctions. Unfortunately the US (and other countries) continue a divided approach - decry the inhumanity on the right, and pass money on the left.



I usually agree with you, but on this I would point to, oh, Liberia and Iraq come to mind pretty quickly, as evidence of how ineffective economic sanctions are in actually inspiring change. The people in charge are still ok, and the civilians still suffer. Using economic sanctions as a weapon is not particularly effective, especially in Africa...

Don't make faces.

http://amaranton.wordpress.com

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"how ineffective economic sanctions are in actually inspiring change"

It worked with South Africa. It works on N Korea. I don't know much about Liberia, but it actually worked on Iraq. There were no WMD.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"how ineffective economic sanctions are in actually inspiring change"

It works on N Korea.



Yeah. They've shut down their nuclear program four times, or is it five, in return for food and oil. "Nuke Plants - The Gift That Keeps On Giving"

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 26, 2021 6:06 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


'Rwanda ex-hotel driver tried in Paris for complicity in genocide'
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rwanda-ex-hotel-driver-tried-115635486.html

'The warning signs are there for genocide in Ethiopia – the world must act to prevent it'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/26/ethiopia-genocid
e-warning-signs-abiy-ahmed


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