REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iran holds British sailors hostage

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Thursday, April 5, 2007 07:44
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Thursday, March 29, 2007 2:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Been a week now. Iran backed out of a pledge to release a female sailor. Said it was because England was making such a 'fuss' over the issue. Gee, can't imagene why. You illegally take military personel from another country, in waters which aren't yours..... folks are going to get cranky. Well, some might. Currently, the U.K. is slightly ahead of France at getting pissed off over such things.

I'm not saying it'll take 444 days until the Brit sailors are released....but it sure might seem that way.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:46 PM

PIRATECAT


As much as English people rub me the wrong way Great Britain has always stood shoulder to shoulder and toe to toe with America. That's good enough for me. When England makes their move I am in full support with their action. I will also let my politicians in New Mexico know to give full support. I have an idea we just retired the USS John F. Kennedy. Now the biggest liberal of all time President Roosevelt (FDR) gave the Brits a lend lease deal on ships before WW2. So we kinda give em the Kennedy for dollar a month. Sounds good to me. Will even throw in a Tomcat or two.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Friday, March 30, 2007 3:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Seems not too long ago, we'd be seeing British flags flying all around here by now, a sign of Americans support for the sailors and G.B. overall.

So far, it's been strangely quiet. I wonder how long that lasts.





People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 30, 2007 5:02 AM

SHINYED


Why are these Britich sailors " confessing"??? Confessing to what? They havent even been tortured ( as far as we can tell from the videos), but they're confessing???. They look like they're scared shitless...I don't understand...some of them are Marines.

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Friday, March 30, 2007 5:03 AM

KANEMAN


Well, most in the Arab world know that Britain is the week link for the western world. It is because of this the Brits will continue to be kidnapped, humiliated, and deballed. The problem seems to be that the Brits keep confusing impotency with being a more civilized country. I am certain if the British had half the resolve that the US has, they wouldn't be getting smacked around by a country still in the primate stage of social order.

Shit, who looks weaker to the Arabs, France or England? Should the US start looking for a stronger partner in this conflict? Maybe Australia......I just think England is a shell of what it once was. They can't control the Muslim neighborhoods in their own country, how can they help control a Muslim nation?

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Friday, March 30, 2007 7:05 AM

FLETCH2


Few things that have to be mentioned.

1) this was a UN mission so UN rules of enguagement apply. UN troops do not fire unless fired on, and yes that means they get captured all the time --- remember Kosovo. In the Balkans in the early days UN troops were seen as an easy place to get arms.

2) I seem to remember a 100 or so Americans being held for 444 days why didn't you rescue them... oh wait, I remember how well that worked.

3)The tube bombers killed fewer people than Tim McVeigh. So we have fewer problems with Muslims than you have with rednecks.

As to admissions. Iran did this before in 2004 and let everybody go after they "appologised." Since these folks haven't been allowed to see embassy staff who knows what they have been told? If someone told you that the deal to send you home was done and all you had to do was spout some rubbish on TV would you?

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Friday, March 30, 2007 7:17 AM

SHINYED


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
If someone told you that the deal to send you home was done and all you had to do was spout some rubbish on TV would you?



It depends.....

If I was a captured as a civilian....I'd say or sign any frikkin' thing they want me to.

If I was a Marine, or Navy sailor, I would keep my mouth shut, and not allow myself to be used for propaganda purposes...Name, Rank & Serial Number is all they need to provide.

Fucking Iranians are savages...funding, training, & promoting TERROR & DEATH OF INNOCENTS all over the world! Blair ought to tell those camel-humpers he'll drop a nuke on their ass TONITE..,.if those folks aren't out by 5PM today!

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Friday, March 30, 2007 7:27 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
Blair ought to tell those camel-humpers he'll drop a nuke on their ass TONITE..,.if those folks aren't out by 5PM today!

Spoken like a true reactionary simpleton. I share your anger at Iran's government, but not your need for innocent blood spilled.



Drive-by Chrisisall

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Friday, March 30, 2007 8:40 AM

SHINYED


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Originally posted by ShinyEd:
Blair ought to tell those camel-humpers he'll drop a nuke on their ass TONITE..,.if those folks aren't out by 5PM today!

Spoken like a true reactionary simpleton. I share your anger at Iran's government, but not your need for innocent blood spilled.


...and replied to like a true naive dolt. You don't deal with the devil...you don't back down to savages...that is UNLESS YOU WANT endless bloodshed forever. These neaderthals see any hesitation as weakness...weakness breeds confidence which breeds agression...learn some history before calling me or anyone else a simpleton...although I do appreciate your obvious restraint from calling me worse.

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Friday, March 30, 2007 10:23 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
You don't deal with the devil...you don't back down to savages...that is UNLESS YOU WANT endless bloodshed forever. These neaderthals see any hesitation as weakness...weakness breeds confidence which breeds agression...learn some history before calling me or anyone else a simpleton...although I do appreciate your obvious restraint from calling me worse.

Seeing any people as different or less than you are underestimates the enemy, and their understanding of YOU, and gives them an advantage is all. They may be bent, but not stupid. We shouldn't play into their plan. They WANT a knee-jerk response from us- I say eff 'em up, but not the way they expect, and in a lasting fashion. To go in blazing is what they MUST want out of this.
IMO.

Sometimes naive dolt Chrisisall

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Friday, March 30, 2007 6:19 PM

PIRATECAT


Fletch 2 you crossed a line talken about rednecks. I am so offended. There is one thing in shooting stop signs driven down the road. Poppin a few pellets never hurt anyone. Timothy McVeigh was from Wisconsin a yankee who was a great soldier who turn traitor and was snuffed for it. I always thought he had help from the smelly stinky arabs. Which Bill covered up. He was a good marksmen not a bomber. To close to the 93 tower bombing to not be connected. But the issue is get them sailors and marines out of Iran soon. They stay to long the torture will get worse.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 2:20 AM

JONGSSTRAW


There was no state of war between Britain & Iran before this incident, therefore this public kidnapping, with likely torture manifesting into "confessions" is a blatant act of war.

Leaders of free & democratic countries have a sworn number one obligation of oath and morality to protect their sovereign citizens, whereever they are, all over the world. It is a total outrage that Iran did this...and they need to pay a huge price for this. I if I could tell Tony & his boys what to do I'd say start with blowing up 5 oil refineries a day, every day and then sinking tankers at sea, wherever they are. This is Great Britain for god's sake!....the cradle...the foundation of western civilized law and human rights....the only people to have the balls & the wisdom to initially stand up & fight Hitler's rampage of mayhem and death....all the while...the "enlightened liberals" in America said no, don't fight, talk! Same shit as now...They're gonna cower & whimper & lay down to some cult of death savages hell-bent on enslaving the world to their twisted, demented, and barbaric "religion"?

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 2:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

This is Great Britain for god's sake!.


Jongsstraw, unfortunatly, this ain't Maggie Thatcher's Great Britain. Seems their finest hour has already chimed.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 2:30 PM

FLETCH2


Oh please!

1) Iran has no refineries, they have to import petrol. So whose refinery's should we bomb?
2) As far as i know they own no tankers, so whose tankers would we sink? American tankers?

3) We would actually like to have our people back, that is the objective not starting a war. Mrs T would not have started a war over this, Churchill would not have started a war over this, no British politician would nuke them over this. The reason you have a foreign office is to allow you to apply none military presure to get what you want.


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Sunday, April 1, 2007 3:52 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Oh please!

1) Iran has no refineries, they have to import petrol. So whose refinery's should we bomb?
2) As far as i know they own no tankers, so whose tankers would we sink? American tankers?
3) We would actually like to have our people back, that is the objective not starting a war. Mrs T would not have started a war over this, Churchill would not have started a war over this, no British politician would nuke them over this. The reason you have a foreign office is to allow you to apply none military presure to get what you want.


Oh please - bomb the oil production/storage facilities- they have those don't they?
Oh please - blockade, sink if necessary any tanker leaving Iran- tankers leave there & can be blockaded, can't they?
But the bigger picture that you don't want to deal with is where is all this going? And when does it stop? Iran had its' Hezbollah troops in Lebanon kidnap Israeli soldiers which provoked a shooting & bombing war, this kidnapping with likely torture of British soldiers operating there for the UN, Iran's endlessly documented funding, training, and promotion of Islamic terror all over the world, their relentless pursuit of nukes & missles, their regular statements of goals to destroy Israel and the United States? Or just their daily puposeful disruption of world stability and energy markets which affect us all every day? And so all you and others want is just to get them home; do whatever Iran wants, appease, just get them home and all this will be over, nice and neat. Life will be just fine, it will all go away if we just don't do anything.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 7:08 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Jongsstraw, unfortunatly, this ain't Maggie Thatcher's Great Britain. Seems their finest hour has already chimed.

The term is FORTUNATLY this is not Maggie 'the crazed bitch' Thatchers Britain.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 7:17 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Few things that have to be mentioned.

1) this was a UN mission so UN rules of enguagement apply. UN troops do not fire unless fired on, and yes that means they get captured all the time --- remember Kosovo. In the Balkans in the early days UN troops were seen as an easy place to get arms.

2) I seem to remember a 100 or so Americans being held for 444 days why didn't you rescue them... oh wait, I remember how well that worked.

3)The tube bombers killed fewer people than Tim McVeigh. So we have fewer problems with Muslims than you have with rednecks.

As to admissions. Iran did this before in 2004 and let everybody go after they "appologised." Since these folks haven't been allowed to see embassy staff who knows what they have been told? If someone told you that the deal to send you home was done and all you had to do was spout some rubbish on TV would you?



Lord knows the situation will be helped if the Americans and the Brits snark at each other, instead of remember historical alliances and figuring out how to fix this.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 7:29 AM

CAUSAL


Just a quick question (directed at no one in particular--I just had to click "reply" somewhere). Why are we letting the trolls direct this conversation? They've piled into the thread en masse, and are driving the discussion. Why is that? How about we step back and try again.

Myself personally, I'd like to know where the British boat was taken. Iran has historically claimed much more than their 12-nautical-miles' worth of territorial waters. So did the boat get lost and venture with in 12 nuatical miles of Iran's coast? Or were they taken in international waters? That would seem to make a difference with respect to how to handle the situation.

Just a note: Iran actually does have a pretty robust petroleum industry (4th largest oil producer in the world), including a refining capability.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/oil.htm
www.nioc.org/subcompanies/niordc/index.asp

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 7:34 AM

CITIZEN


The original Iranian claim (that backed by British evidence) puts the seziure two nautical miles within Iraqi waters

The latest claim that they put in some days after says that they were taken 2 nautical miles within Iranian waters. The ship that was being searched by the British prior to the seziure is still anchored apparrently unmoved, 2 miles within Iraqi waters.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 7:52 AM

CAUSAL


I wonder why that's not being talked about? I mean, two miles might be a touch close, but hey: that's how the game is played. If the Iranians siezed the boat crew in international waters, that seems to change the dynamic somewhat (to me, leastways). If it's verifiable that they were in international waters, then the Iranians are guilty of kidnapping, essentially (maybe piracy?).

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 8:24 AM

KHYRON


Doesn't change the dynamics since it's what the dynamics were from the start, at least according to the UK version and I don't think there's a reason to find the Iranian version more credible. This IS kidnap, and it's not the first time it's happened either.



"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Jongsstraw, unfortunatly, this ain't Maggie Thatcher's Great Britain. Seems their finest hour has already chimed.

The term is FORTUNATLY this is not Maggie 'the crazed bitch' Thatchers Britain.





Nothing against Tony Blair, he's shown himself to be a fine enough fellow. But Maggie is a truly magnificent lady and a top notch P.M. Right up there w/ Winston Churuchill.

Pity you don't recognize.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:15 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
I wonder why that's not being talked about? I mean, two miles might be a touch close, but hey: that's how the game is played. If the Iranians siezed the boat crew in international waters, that seems to change the dynamic somewhat (to me, leastways). If it's verifiable that they were in international waters, then the Iranians are guilty of kidnapping, essentially (maybe piracy?).

It is being talked about, at least over here.

Though they weren't seized in international waters, they were seized in Iraqi Waters, which means the Iranians invaded Iraqi territory inorder to illegally abduct British Service personnel.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:20 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
I wonder why that's not being talked about? I mean, two miles might be a touch close, but hey: that's how the game is played. If the Iranians siezed the boat crew in international waters, that seems to change the dynamic somewhat (to me, leastways). If it's verifiable that they were in international waters, then the Iranians are guilty of kidnapping, essentially (maybe piracy?).

It is being talked about, at least over here.

Though they weren't seized in international waters, they were seized in Iraqi Waters, which means the Iranians invaded Iraqi territory inorder to illegally abduct British Service personnel.



Well, there you have it! I am completely confounded as to why this isn't being talked up on this side of the pond. So not only do they abduct British military personnel, but they do it by violating the national sovereignty of Iraq. I'm not one to advocate wars, and I deeply hope that we don't go to war with Iran, but man have those buggers got some nerve. They meddle with Iraqi internal politics, pour fuel on the sectarian violence in the same, violate the sovereignty of the same, and abduct foriegn nationals in another country's territory. It seems like Iran's making a bid to be a regional power; please, oh, please God, let that not happen.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:30 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nothing against Tony Blair, he's shown himself to be a fine enough fellow. But Maggie is a truly magnificent lady and a top notch P.M. Right up there w/ Winston Churuchill.

Pity you don't recognize.

A fine lady that near crippled British industry, whose social and economic policies near brought Britain to it's knees economically, whose utter disregard for public opinion kept her from seeing the very real harm she was causing and whose cabinet's ineptitude allowed a war that could have been stopped before it started.

Including Winston Churchills name in the same sentence as Margrate Thatcher is an insult, let alone putting them 'on a par'. If such a position wasn't so tragic it would be a joke.

Pity your criteria for a great leader doesn't step beyond “Were they right wing?”.

”It is strange that the British economy was saved by the total collapse of the Tories economic policy”
David Rough,
Leading City Investor.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:34 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Well, there you have it! I am completely confounded as to why this isn't being talked up on this side of the pond. So not only do they abduct British military personnel, but they do it by violating the national sovereignty of Iraq. I'm not one to advocate wars, and I deeply hope that we don't go to war with Iran, but man have those buggers got some nerve. They meddle with Iraqi internal politics, pour fuel on the sectarian violence in the same, violate the sovereignty of the same, and abduct foriegn nationals in another country's territory. It seems like Iran's making a bid to be a regional power; please, oh, please God, let that not happen.

I agree entirely, I'd go so far to say that a case for war with Iran is by far more secure right now than it ever was with Iraq. Though I want and wanted neither.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:39 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Well, there you have it! I am completely confounded as to why this isn't being talked up on this side of the pond. So not only do they abduct British military personnel, but they do it by violating the national sovereignty of Iraq. I'm not one to advocate wars, and I deeply hope that we don't go to war with Iran, but man have those buggers got some nerve. They meddle with Iraqi internal politics, pour fuel on the sectarian violence in the same, violate the sovereignty of the same, and abduct foriegn nationals in another country's territory. It seems like Iran's making a bid to be a regional power; please, oh, please God, let that not happen.

I agree entirely, I'd go so far to say that a case for war with Iran is by far more secure right now than it ever was with Iraq. Though I want and wanted neither.



The bitter irony here is that if Iraq falls into anarchy, Iran will become the regional it wants to be--but given the influnece of the Shia in Iraq, even if the Iraqi government makes it onto its own two feet, Iran will probably still be able to act from a position of power, regionally at least. And what if they do develop a nuke?

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:54 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
...I'd go so far to say that a case for war with Iran is by far more secure right now than it ever was with Iraq. Though I want and wanted neither.

Completely agree with this, but although I don't want a war, I wouldn't be vehemently opposed to it if the UK government decided it was an appropriate course of action.



"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 10:48 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

A fine lady that near crippled British industry, whose social and economic policies near brought Britain to it's knees economically, whose utter disregard for public opinion kept her from seeing the very real harm she was causing and whose cabinet's ineptitude allowed a war that could have been stopped before it started.



Hey, she sounds a lot like GW Bush. No wonder these folks love her.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 5:44 AM

DAYVE



Things are not always as they seem. The Independent sheds new light on the abduction of 15 British sailors and Marines.


The botched US raid that led to the hostage crisis
Exclusive Report: How a bid to kidnap Iranian security officials sparked a diplomatic crisis
By Patrick Cockburn
Published: 03 April 2007


Quote:

A failed American attempt to abduct two senior Iranian security officers on an official visit to northern Iraq was the starting pistol for a crisis that 10 weeks later led to Iranians seizing 15 British sailors and Marines.

Early on the morning of 11 January, helicopter-born US forces launched a surprise raid on a long-established Iranian liaison office in the city of Arbil in Iraqi Kurdistan. They captured five relatively junior Iranian officials whom the US accuses of being intelligence agents and still holds.

In reality the US attack had a far more ambitious objective, The Independent has learned. The aim of the raid, launched without informing the Kurdish authorities, was to seize two men at the very heart of the Iranian security establishment.

Better understanding of the seriousness of the US action in Arbil - and the angry Iranian response to it - should have led Downing Street and the Ministry of Defence to realise that Iran was likely to retaliate against American or British forces such as highly vulnerable Navy search parties in the Gulf. The two senior Iranian officers the US sought to capture were Mohammed Jafari, the powerful deputy head of the Iranian National Security Council, and General Minojahar Frouzanda, the chief of intelligence of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, according to Kurdish officials.




The rest of the article here:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2414760.ece

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 6:43 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:

Blair ought to tell those camel-humpers he'll drop a nuke on their ass TONITE..,.if those folks aren't out by 5PM today!

Do you see now that that would have been a mistake?
I understand the anger, but our response must not always be a forceful one.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 3:10 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:

Blair ought to tell those camel-humpers he'll drop a nuke on their ass TONITE..,.if those folks aren't out by 5PM today!

Do you see now that that would have been a mistake?
I understand the anger, but our response must not always be a forceful one.

Chrisisall



I read things like this and laugh, what if the shoe was on the other foot... If the US ( and or Britain ) steps out of line with unwarranted acts of aggression justified by manufactured evidence and flawed theory.... as it frequently does

By this logic the US needs several nukes dropped on their collective asses.

I read today that Ahmadinejad has ordered a Presidential Pardon and will be releasing these prisoners as part of a Easter / Muslim holiday celebration, as I suspect was his intention from the start. Whether or not this patrol strayed into Iranian waters ( they may have, neither side has any credibility to say otherwise ) He certainly made himself look like the man who stood up to Bush and Blair.... And also made Bush and Blair look like warmongering fools in the bargain. Most in the US and UK likely would disagree, but remember this plays very differently in the rest of the planet, and that was the intended audience anyway.








" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12


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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 3:30 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

He certainly made himself look like the man who stood up to Bush and Blair.... And also made Bush and Blair look like warmongering fools in the bargain.

Gino, you realize this is Hero/AURaptor/ShinyEd bait, don't you?

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 4:13 PM

PIRATECAT


Hot diggy dog their out. Good. Now I hope they get a good breakfast with mom and dad lots bacon and eggs with plenty of those fine English bangors. I always understood international waters was 1 mile off of a nation's shore. But I am glad for the sailors and marines.


"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 7:59 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

He certainly made himself look like the man who stood up to Bush and Blair.... And also made Bush and Blair look like warmongering fools in the bargain.

Gino, you realize this is Hero/AURaptor/ShinyEd bait, don't you?

Chrisisall




It is the truth. How do you think this all plays out in the Middle East, or Asia, or Latin America... or Russia....

Iran 1 .... Idiots 0



" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12


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Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:18 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Whether or not this patrol strayed into Iranian waters ( they may have, neither side has any credibility to say otherwise )

How do you figure? There's irrefutable evidence that has been released proving they were in Iraqi waters. Iran originally said they were picked up in Iraqi waters, they changed their story days after. How do you figure that actual evidence doesn't trump rhetoric because you want the UK to be in the wrong on this one?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:36 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
.... And also made Bush and Blair look like warmongering fools in the bargain. Most in the US and UK likely would disagree, but remember this plays very differently in the rest of the planet, and that was the intended audience anyway.

I tend to have Canadian (CBC), South African (iAfrica) and German (Spiegel, n-tv) news sources in addition to British and American ones, and I haven't seen any of those take Iran's side. In fact, BBC was one of the more neutral ones, what Spiegel has to say about Ahmadinejad, both during the crisis and now, is scathing.

In addition, Blair and his cabinet have stressed a diplomatic resolution to this issue, and I haven't read anything to the contrary anywhere. The only warmongering came from the Iranian side, and the only one to look like a fool is Ahmadinejad for seemingly giving up in the face of international pressure (at least that's what it looks like on the outside).



"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 6:46 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Whether or not this patrol strayed into Iranian waters ( they may have, neither side has any credibility to say otherwise )

How do you figure? There's irrefutable evidence that has been released proving they were in Iraqi waters. Iran originally said they were picked up in Iraqi waters, they changed their story days after. How do you figure that actual evidence doesn't trump rhetoric because you want the UK to be in the wrong on this one?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!


No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
]


There was irrefutable evidence that Saddam had WMD...

That issue could only be decided by an uninvolved third party.



" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12


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Thursday, April 5, 2007 6:55 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
.... And also made Bush and Blair look like warmongering fools in the bargain. Most in the US and UK likely would disagree, but remember this plays very differently in the rest of the planet, and that was the intended audience anyway.

I tend to have Canadian (CBC), South African (iAfrica) and German (Spiegel, n-tv) news sources in addition to British and American ones, and I haven't seen any of those take Iran's side. In fact, BBC was one of the more neutral ones, what Spiegel has to say about Ahmadinejad, both during the crisis and now, is scathing.

In addition, Blair and his cabinet have stressed a diplomatic resolution to this issue, and I haven't read anything to the contrary anywhere. The only warmongering came from the Iranian side, and the only one to look like a fool is Ahmadinejad for seemingly giving up in the face of international pressure (at least that's what it looks like on the outside).



"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."




http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/41541F59-D56E-495A-804B-BF43498
43F85.htm


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2422650.ece



" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12


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Thursday, April 5, 2007 7:15 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
There was irrefutable evidence that Saddam had WMD...

Firstly, no there wasn't and this is specious reasoning at best. Secondly even the Iranian account backed up the British evidence before they changed their story. That and the ship they were searching when they were picked up was still anchored in Iraqi waters after not budging an inch.

So:
Britain has supplied evidence, Iran has not.

Britain originally said they were in Iraqi waters not Iranian, and so did the Iranians.

Iran changed it's story, Britain has not.

So why is Iran's story equally strong again?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 7:36 AM

KHYRON


Neither of those two sources have supported your claim. They both say the confrontation was diplomatic (i.e. The US and UK didn't take on a 'warmongering' stance) and that there was no outright victor, and I didn't see them say that Bush and Blair were made to look like fools. Although the Al Jazeera article does say that Iran got more out of it and their arguments admittedly do make sense (but I think one could equally well argue that the UK got more out of it).



"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 7:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


To its credit, Britain was cool, calm and diplomatic from the start. But at the beginning the US DID make some threatening war-mongering noises. I would have loved to have been privy to Blair's communiques with Bush at the time -
PSSST Hey - it's OUR people at risk ! What do you think you're doing ? We just want them back. Oh, and we're not going into Iran with you either. So back off, pipe down and let us handle it.

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