REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

All you righties can toast to the Iraq War success. Oh...no you can't.

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 22, 2023 16:49
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4364
PAGE 2 of 2

Thursday, February 8, 2007 2:56 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:


Originally posted by Causal:
Before: not able to kill with impugnity. After: able to kill with impugnity. So while you may be right that they are responsible for their acts of killing, we are certainly responsible for our creating conditions that made that a live option.


That was true over three years ago during the initial campaign but what about now?



Well, as far as this goes, we're still responsible for creating those circumstances.

Quote:

Is it not reasonable to expect the Iraqis to at least start to rectify some of the conditions which allow these people the freedom to act? It's much easier to blame the Americans instead of rolling up their sleeves and begining to enact meaningful change themselves.



Yeah, I think you're right here. I doesn't make sense to me that they blame us when they could be standing up and taking charge of their own country. But then I also think that "taking charge of their own country" isn't even a conceptual category they have. Before us it was Hussein, before him (ignoring about 15 coups) it was a king, before that it was the colonial Brits, before that, well, I'm not really sure. Point is, I can't see where they've ever had the notion that as a people they're responsible for themselves. And without that idea, it's going to be hard to get the democratic project going over there.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 4:51 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
So we each bear 100% responsibility for the things that we do, and no one else can be blamed for the things that a free individual does? OK, you could be right about that. If that's the case, the U.S. bears 100% responsibility for creating the conditions in which these people have the freedom to act.



This seems somewhat akin to blaming the carmaker because the driver drove too fast for conditions, lost control, and crashed.

Also, by your "the U.S. bears 100% responsibility for creating the conditions in which these people have the freedom to act." theory, the U.S. bears total responsibility for every crime committed in the U.S. since the U.S. provides us all with the freedom to act.

Individuals do have primary, if probably not 100%, responsibility for their actions.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

*Edited to reduce sarcasm.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 5:58 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
This seems somewhat akin to blaming the carmaker because the driver drove too fast for conditions, lost control, and crashed.



Well, interestingly, there are situations (although probably not the one you gave) in which we would blame the car manufacturer. If, for instance, the car manufacturer knew that the brakes on a particular vehicle were prone to failure and yet allowed the car to ship anyway, then it would seem that if someone dies because the brakes failed the manufacturer bears at least some responsibility, because they knowingly shipped a car with dodgy brakes (even if they weren't the ones driving). If a toy manufacturer ships a toy that it knows carries the risk of overheating and causing house fires, then we think that manufacturer bears some responsibility (even if they weren't the ones that put the toy next to the curtains). My point is, your account of responsibility seems somewhat simplistic.

Quote:

Also, by your "the U.S. bears 100% responsibility for creating the conditions in which these people have the freedom to act." theory, the U.S. bears total responsibility for every crime committed in the U.S. since the U.S. provides us all with the freedom to act.


Your ability to miss the point astounds me. I specifically mentioned this sort of thing in my post, and said that criminals alone bear responsibility for their actions. But suppose that there is a violent sex offender who rapes and then kills his victims. Suppose that he is caught and locked up in prison. But one night, a certain prison guard falls asleep on his shift and neglects to lock the rapist's cell. The rapist, being a clever fellow, escapes from prison and commits a bunch more crimes before he's recaught. Now, are we going to try the guard for the rape and murder the rapist commits after his escape? Heck, no. But we have the sense that the guard has done something wrong. Over and above his negligence, we think that he's responsible for the prisoner's being loose again. He might not be the one committing the crime, but when considering the condition prisoner-on-the-loose, it seems pretty the guard bears responsibility for having actualized that condition. So no, I'm not holding the U.S. responsible for the sectarian violence happening in Iraq. But there is the condition of authority-vacuum in Iraq, and I think that we bear responsibility for having created that condition. And just like we get mad at the guard who allowed the rapist to escape, I can understand why people are upset with the U.S. for creating conditions conducive to sectarian violence.

Quote:

Individuals do have primary, if probably not 100%, responsibility for their actions.



Again, as I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not disputing that. I'm merely saying that the just like the insurgents, terrorists, death squads and Baathists are responsible for their actions, the U.S. is responsible for its own actions. I think that we can agree on that much, because saying that is no more than what you've been saying this whole time: people are responsible for their actions. The point that I'm making--that you keep trying to dodge around--is that where before there was relative calm and stability in Iraq (no death squads, no suicide bombings, etc), now there's violence and instability. The conditions have changed, and I think it's legitimate to ask what role the U.S. invasion had on those conditions.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html


Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 6:16 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
The conditions have changed, and I think it's legitimate to ask what role the U.S. invasion had on those conditions.


Causal, why do you hate America?
(Just thought I'd ask before Geezer did)

Missing the point is what he does, darlin' Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 6:25 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Causal, why do you hate America?

Lol. Since we're at it:

Causal, why do you hate the troops? And since you're a troop, I guess that means: why do you hate yourself?

Plagiarist Khyronisall



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 6:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
why do you hate yourself?


Khyron, I think we're missing the point.
Let's join Geezer for some self-flagelation.

Causal's writing is clear and precise; how can anyone miss his points? I think The Geez misses 'em on purpose, to argue.

Mr Pointy Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 6:56 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Khyron, I think we're missing the point.
Let's join Geezer for some self-flagelation.



All right, you two--don't make me have to say something coherent!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 7:03 AM

KHYRON


Somebody looking for on argument here on FFF.net!? Mr Isall, surely you jest!



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 8:56 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:


All right, you two--don't make me have to say something coherent!




isall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 8:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Somebody looking for on argument here on FFF.net!? Mr Isall, surely you jest!


No, I'm not...wanna make something out of it???

Goofy Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 10:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
The point that I'm making--that you keep trying to dodge around--is that where before there was relative calm and stability in Iraq (no death squads, no suicide bombings, etc), now there's violence and instability. The conditions have changed, and I think it's legitimate to ask what role the U.S. invasion had on those conditions.



If you want to discuss all the causes of the current instability in Iraq, that's fine by me. The trend in this thread is to say America is totally responsible for them all. That's why Rue wants 660,000 dead and Chris wants a million+ dead; so they can blame all the deaths on the U.S., and specifically Bush. I can't go along with that.

The U.S. does bear some responsibility, for failing to anticipate the level of sectarian unrest. Saddam bears some, for placing one sect in a superior position, practically guaranteeing sectional hatred. The British didn't help when they created the country in the first place. al-Queda probably had a hand in things as well.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 10:28 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
The U.S. does bear some responsibility, for failing to anticipate the level of sectarian unrest. Saddam bears some, for placing one sect in a superior position, practically guaranteeing sectional hatred. The British didn't help when they created the country in the first place. al-Queda probably had a hand in things as iswell.

At the risk of getting flamed for agreeing with you, I think the same.

But let's not forget the main reason for all the unrest: religion.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 10:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA


No, Stupidity.

"Come on guys, our great big imaginary friend says we have to kill those guys who have a different great big imaginary friend cause if we don't they'll kill us and rule the world!"

To quote Jubal Early here...

"Does that seem right to you ?"

-F

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 10:56 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
But let's not forget the main reason for all the unrest: religion.



Big fan of Richard Dawkins are we?

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 10:58 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
No, Stupidity.



Are you trying to be offensive? Oh, wait, I forgot, you're the guy who wants to burn Christians at the stake. Sorry--forgot.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 11:34 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
"Come on guys, our great big imaginary friend says we have to kill those guys who have a different great big imaginary friend cause if we don't they'll kill us and rule the world!"

Just in this case they both have the same great big imaginary friend, and the same great big book of what he supposedly said, yet they still find reasons to kill each other.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 11:55 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
[BThe British didn't help when they created the country in the first place.



We wanted the bit with the oil. Our bad....

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 1:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually I was going for a full measure of snark there.

Believe me, I know as well as any, the Christians and the Muslims are both sons of the line of Ibrihim/Abraham and thus brothers, and kinslaying is rather frowned upon in both belief systems.

Not to mention it's in violation of the Medina Compact, a peace treaty forged between the Christians, the Muslims and the Jews that worked for quite a while and was written by none other than Mohammed himself.

Not that knowin this stuff will stop me from mocking stupidity, no, especially if so-called believers of any of those three beliefs completely ignore the core principles of the very religions they're killin in the name of.

Mockery don't kill people, stupidity and intolerance does.

*Snark* *Snark*

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 1:28 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
We wanted the bit with the oil. Our bad....

But then, who doesn't...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 1:59 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Mockery don't kill people, stupidity and intolerance does.



Among other things...

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 2:03 PM

KHYRON


Oh. I thought we were talking about the Sunni/Shia thing. At least that's what I meant when I made the religion comment. I can't be bothered to get pulled into another "which religion is more evil" discussion, we had too many of those on these boards already.

EDIT: Frem, not that your comment was saying anything along the lines of "this one sucks more", but it only takes the slightest nudge to knock a discussion into that direction.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 2:38 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by Malbadinlatin:
The British tried to civilize Iraq and stayed there from 1919 through 1961! The longer the Brits stayed, the more unstable the government became.



I was going to blame the British (sorry Citizen) but I have decided to blame Belgium.

FutureMrssotiredofitallthatIampunchyFillion


----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 8, 2007 2:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA


"My God's bigger than your God, My God's Bigger than yours, My God's better and you're all heretics, My God's bigger than yours!.."*

Juvenille, innit ?

I have a sense of humor yes, it's just not a very nice one.

-F


*Apologies to HJ Heinz company...
Oh, yeah, umm, you feed Christians to the Lions, it's Wiccans you burn at the Stake..

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 22, 2023 4:49 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


If you break it you bought it!??


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Fri, March 29, 2024 09:13 - 3 posts
Elections; 2024
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:56 - 2076 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:20 - 6156 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:18 - 57 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Fri, March 29, 2024 02:54 - 3414 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Fri, March 29, 2024 02:49 - 11 posts
Long List of Celebrities that are Still Here
Fri, March 29, 2024 00:00 - 1 posts
China
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:10 - 447 posts
Biden
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:03 - 853 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL