REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Clinton Success Tax

POSTED BY: HERO
UPDATED: Thursday, February 8, 2007 16:02
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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 9:36 AM

HERO


Quote:


Toyota Reports Record Quarterly Profit

TOKYO (AP) - Toyota, hot on the heels of General Motors to become the world's No. 1 automaker, reported a 7.3 percent jump in quarterly profit Tuesday on booming sales in North America and Europe that offset sluggish demand in Japan.

Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) recorded group net profit of 426.8 billion yen ($3.6 billion) in the three months ended Dec. 31, up from 397.6 billion yen the same period the previous year.


Hillary Clinton plans to tax these profits and use the proceeds to create a strategic fund designed to limit our dependence on foriegn car makes.

Its a bold plan. It involves taking your money, then causing prices to skyrocket, and then losing to Jeb Bush in 2012 so that the Republicans can repair the damage tot he ecomony.

H



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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 10:17 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Don't fool yourself for one short minute. If the president had any real effect on the economy, the economy would never be bad. Why risk alienating voters with your evil plan to ruin the economy? Just make it a great economy always! Then your party stays in power. How can you explain this?...

Any politician that takes credit for a booming economy, is full of it. Any politician that blames the other party for it, is full of it. Anyone that thinks how they vote in the next election will shape the economy, is...well...a wishfull thinker...and thats putting it nicely

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 10:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Zero's like any true right-wing whacko, no matter what - blame Clinton ! (Hillary this time, not Bill).

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 10:32 AM

CAUSAL



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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 10:44 AM

KHYRON


Should she rather tax small companies and get the money from them?



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 11:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Zero's like any true right-wing whacko, no matter what - blame Clinton ! (Hillary this time, not Bill).



So, when Hitlary says " I want those profits " , it's a ' true , right-wing whacko ' , no matter what, who calls attention to her socialist ideas ?

Sorry Hitlary, but those aren't your profits, ( they belong to the company, and more importantly, the 1000's of shareholders ) and one needs not be a 'right-wing whacko' to stand up to her.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. " `

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 11:22 AM

KHYRON


I always had a question about profits. Don't huge profits just mean that the company is overcharging its customers? Theoretically those companies stole the money from their customers first, so I don't care if Clinton steals it from them.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 11:44 AM

FLETCH2


Or more accurately, the customers were willing to pay the price the company set. Part of the problem the big 3 have had is that some of their larger vehicles won't sell until you practically give them away.

Toyota is successfull for 3 reasons

1) It makes cars people actually want to buy at prices they are willing to pay.

2) They have a reputation for build quality

3) They plough money back into R&D rather than resting on their laurels.

It's a good example of a well run engineering company. Good for them.

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 3:17 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hi all,

I've never understood the idea of taxing foreign competitors in order to increase the popularity of domestic goods.

If the domestic goods were... Well, as good, then wouldn't we be buying them?

Or are we just admitting that we can't compete with foreign powers?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 5:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA


It's a sad damned comment when most domestic sold Nissans are built in Indiana, and most domestic sold Fords are built in Mexico...

Anyhows, of course they hafta tax success, were they to levy a tax on failure, all of Capitol Hill would be pauperized.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 6:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
It's a sad damned comment when most domestic sold Nissans are built in Indiana, and most domestic sold Fords are built in Mexico...

Anyhows, of course they hafta tax success, were they to levy a tax on failure, all of Capitol Hill would be pauperized.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it




I dunno... I keep hearing about fired corporate execs pulling multi-million dollar severence packages. Maybe taxing failure could be lucrative. :-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 6:57 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
I always had a question about profits. Don't huge profits just mean that the company is overcharging its customers? Theoretically those companies stole the money from their customers first, so I don't care if Clinton steals it from them.

Communist



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 12:00 PM

ANTIMASON


our own auto industry was sold out by both parties, when they began removing levies on imported goods, and created an illegal income tax as compensation. i despise CLinton, and many of the socialist democrats.. but you republicans are even worse for bending over to free trade agreements, and allowing corporations to practically run government

atleast you know democrats are socialists.. where as you neocons are a bunch of closet fascists

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 12:05 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
our own auto industry was sold out by both parties, when they started removing levies on imported goods,

So by forcing you're auto industry to compete in a fair and level position with better car manufactures they were sold out.



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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 12:14 PM

ANTIMASON


fair and level how? its not our responsibility to leverage ourselves with other economies. when domestic manufactures owned 80-90% of the market share, yah.. it was better for Americans. 50 years later, thanks to free trade, we have to build most our vehicles with slave labor, and are importing slave built cars to improve our bottom lines. nationalism is a good thing, it ensures independance.. globalism is planetary communism

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 12:18 PM

WAFFENMAC


Wow this getting ugly,both parties suck badly.That is why no matter if your dem or rep lib or cons you should own a firearm and be free,just like in Firefly.The tree of liberty requires blood to grow.

mac

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 12:25 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
fair and level how?

You are joking right? I mean if you can't workout how not giving one party an unfair advantage puts both parties on a fair and level footing for yourself I'm not sure I can explain it too you. Fair and level isn't "Americans get an advantage" believe it or not, though many Americans seem to think it is.
Quote:

its not our responsibility to leverage ourselves with other economies.
Who said it was, but for a country that says it believes so strongly in the free market system it's amazing how rarely you practice that ideal. Seems there's a lot of talk of free markets when it's American imports to other countries getting taxed.
Quote:

when domestic manufactures owned 80-90% of the market share, yah.. it was better for Americans. 50 years later, thanks to free trade, we build most our vehicles with slave labor, and import slave built cars to improve the bottom lines. nationalism is a good thing, it ensures independance.. globalism is planetary communism
The government stopped propping up your poorly run companies, if they were well run they would have become more efficient and produce a better product that people want to buy. It would make more sense to blame the companies for being bad at their job, not the government for not propping up and paying for their incompetence.

And for the record nationalism is a word fascists use a lot.



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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 12:41 PM

ERIC


Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:



And for the record nationalism is a word fascists use a lot.




You beat me to it- Globalism is planetary fascism.


FDR: "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power."

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 12:49 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

posted by Citizen-

The government stopped propping up your poorly run companies, if they were well run they would have become more efficient and produce a better product that people want to buy. It would make more sense to blame the companies for being bad at their job, not the government for not propping up and paying for their incompetence.



i didnt ask the government to "prop us up", we simply asked them to protect what was in our national interest. you seem to miss the part about the illegal income tax, which they imposed on us to make up for the loss of tax revenue on imports; which are unfair burdens that free people do not deserve from their representative government. any third world country can out bid a similar America company, because we cant get away with paying people 5 cents an hr; in that case we do deserve the benefit of a pro-nationalist economic policy- in order to insure that our standards of living arent leveraged with impoverished nations like Mexico

Quote:

And for the record nationalism is a word fascists use a lot.


and globalism is a word the communist NWO traitors use.. atleast i know nationalism can work for our benefit

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 12:57 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
i didnt ask the government to "prop us up", we simply asked them to protect what was in our national interest.

Erm, that's exactly what you're asking. American companies can't compete so they need to be propped up, your position.
Quote:

you seem to miss the part about the illegal income tax, which they imposed on us to make up for the loss of tax revenue on imports; which are unfair burdens that free people do not deserve from their representative government.
Why should foriegners make up the shortfall that you don't want to pay because it's unfair to pay your own way? Yeah really stupid thing to say, but so is what you said.
Quote:

any third world country can out bid a similar America company, because we cant get away with paying people 5 cents an hr; in that case we do deserve the benefit of a pro-nationalist economic policy- in order to insure that our standards of living arent leveraged with impoverished nations like Mexico
The "Wahh, Americans deserve special treatment Wahh" defence really doesn't cut it with me, sorry.

I find it really amusing that a citizen of the richest country in the world is bitching about not being able to compete fairly with the third world, that's just priceless.



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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 1:05 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
richest country in the world

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Is a man who takes out a huge loan from the bank actually rich, or is it just a pretence?



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 1:07 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Is a man who takes out a huge loan from the bank actually rich, or does he just pretend to be to keep up appearances with his neighbours?

I'm aware of Americas debts, but America is still the richest country in the world, the fact that the US government still spends more money than it collects in taxes is hardly here or there.



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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 1:11 PM

KHYRON


I know, I was just kidding around. I love the debt clock, so I look for any opportunity to provide the link.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 1:22 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Uh-huh...

Then explain to me why Nissan built a plant in Indiana, hiring americans, paying a solid wage with damned good benefits, and is selling cars like hotcakes ?

Greed and stupidity killed the US Auto industry, aided and abetted by the ridiculousness of NAFTA.

But mostly, greed and stupidity - they're still building monster SUVs and then begging us to buy them, in spite of the fact that they are built in mexico with horrific quality control, with foreign components, and none of Ford's employees can afford to buy the dadblasted things.

BIG gaping hole in that argument there.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 1:32 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
you seem to miss the part about the illegal income tax, which they imposed on us to make up for the loss of tax revenue on imports; which are unfair burdens that free people do not deserve from their representative government.

Why should foriegners make up the shortfall that you don't want to pay because it's unfair to pay your own way? Yeah really stupid thing to say, but so is what you said.



This actually relates to the way the US used to fund the government back in the day when it had a tiny standing army and no Federal government worth mentioning. Back then the income came from taxing international trade and from money's supplied by the States.

A cornerstone of the militiaconspiracynut agenda is that Federal income taxes are illegal/unconstitutional. Most folks don't LIKE to pay taxes, these guys like to make that sound like an act of heroic patriotic duty.

Anyway, back to the arguments.

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 9:11 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Fletch2-

A cornerstone of the militiaconspiracynut agenda is that Federal income taxes are illegal/unconstitutional.



are you denying that the income tax is illegal? see this right here is the flaw in your worldview, for one:ACCEPT THAT OUR CENTRAL BANK OPERATES ILLEGALLY! and learn how it got to that point.

second: ACCEPT THAT THE INCOME TAX IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL! and how its enforcement by the IRS amounts to criminal extortion and robbery. until you address either of these issues, you simply cannot comprehend what has happened to AMerica

Quote:

Most folks don't LIKE to pay taxes, these guys like to make that sound like an act of heroic patriotic duty.


if its an illegal tax, it is the patriotic thing to do- submitting every april and taking it in the ass to the state is not what i call freedom, or patriotism




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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 9:16 PM

FLETCH2


M'lord I rest my case.

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 9:26 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:


Then explain to me why Nissan built a plant in Indiana, hiring americans, paying a solid wage with damned good benefits, and is selling cars like hotcakes ?



but selling Nissans.. does that benefit AMericans? thats money being taken from AMerican corporations, of which whole cities were built around at one point.. and giving it to the japanese. someone can buy an American built Toyota, but the parts, R&D, and profits belong to the Japanese.. so i dont see how thats any benefit to the avg American. these foreign manufacturers may even provide 'damned good benefits' for americans, maybe on par or better than Detriot is currently.. but i can assure you that its not anything near what families were making 50 years ago in this same profession; and that goes for every facet of American industry. things are not getting better because of globalisation, and freetrade.. because they are admittedly being used to redistribute our wealth throughout the world

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 10:06 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Citizen-

Why should foriegners make up the shortfall that you don't want to pay because it's unfair to pay your own way? Yeah really stupid thing to say, but so is what you said.



the American public, according to a variety of polls over the last decade, actually want a reasonable degree of protectionist trade policy.. which is not happening under the FTA, and current globalist washington mindset. under article 1 of the constitution, congress has the right* to regulate commerce with foreign nations, so that we can use the tax revenue to fund government. instead, the bankers began taxing our labor, unconstitutionally, along with a myriad of other socialist taxes.. and removed the levies on imports that we were reliant on, for revenue, and to preserve our home field advantage. all these things have happened deliberately, to burden us, and im not gonna stand for it


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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 10:09 PM

FLETCH2


It's a question of currency flow.

Say I am an American company building a car in the US with US parts and US labour. Imagine I make a 30% profit overall on sales.

100% of the value of that vehicle stay in the economy, the American workers you pay and the workers in the parts factories you get parts from earn wages that they spend locally in the local economy. This money then effectively gets used again to pay waitresses and cooks, shop assiatants, hairdresses etc etc.

Now imagine that the American company builds the car in Mexico using mexican parts and labour. Off shoring production makes for a higher profit, let's say 40%. The investers in the company are happy, because their cut just went up by 1/3. Let's see what else happens.

40% of the value stays in the US because that is the manufacturers profit margin, but the 60% of the value that comes from parts and labour goes to Mexico where the car is made and Mexican workers now have the money to spend on secondary service industrys that provide employment. So Mexican hairdressers etc are the ones that see the trickle down economic benefit.

Now option no 3. Japanese firm making 40% profit makes car in US with US parts and labour. 40% of the value of the vehicle gets expariated to Japan as profit but the 60% production costs stay in the US and produce secondary economic benefits.

So it is actually better for the local economy to have Nissan make cars in the US than for Ford to make cars in Mexico. The downside is that not being a US company it doesnt have the same incentive to stick around as someone like Ford might, In addition it generates less activity in the US financial space because it is listed in the Japanese exchange.

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 10:20 PM

ANTIMASON


why build offshore? cost effectiveness obviously.. but usually you are exporting work to a less developed country, to take advantage of the potential profit margins. either way, that work is not staying here domestically... so until the rest of the world is brought up to our standards, our standard of living will constantly suffer on account of this free trade. i dont think its the american middle classes responsibility to subsidize the third world- that guilt is being laid upon us by liberal media and academia, who think we should feel bad because we created a prosperous system. there is no reason the mexican economy cant become as competitive as ours, but corrupt forces protect their impoverished system, and our American government now legitimizes it(because weve become reliant on slave labor). none of the real issues are being solved, the real wealth is just being shuffled into fewer and fewer hands, whlie we become more indebted, socialized, and inundated by the third world

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 10:24 PM

FLETCH2


It was never "your wealth" you just had advantages the other guy didn't have and wisely exploited it.

60 years ago most of the industrialised world got involved in a world war during which a great many economies were either destroyed outright or had infrastructure damage that took decades to repair. Geography ensured that the US mainland was not attacked. Only in the US and Sweden did industrial infrastructure actually get better during the war, after the war the excess capacity was turned to making consumer goods. Not only were America's competitors unable to compete in production they needed US goods to rebuild. The result was what Germans call a "happy time."

Industrialised countries all work the same way. They buy raw materials cheaply, they use the materials to make finished goods and then sell those finished goods for a profit. European Imperialism was as much about securing markets for their industrial goods as it was for securing the raw materials those industries required.

So there was a time America bought cheap and sold dear. It could buy cheap because it's competitors were not competing for those resources and forcing prices up. It could sell dear because it was the only one making those finished goods. That difference was the wealth that built the US middle class.

The problem is that everyone else caught up, America is not the only country buying raw resources, demand raises prices. America is not the only nation selling the finished goods, more supply lowers prices. So even if you added border tariffs up the wazzo tomorrow it wouldnt help. You would still have to compete with other nations to buy the resources you would need for industry, you would have to compete again to sell. In addition other nations not so happy with your tariffs are likely to retaliate against your exports.

The happy time is never coming back.

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 10:33 PM

FLETCH2


Off shoring is another thing entireloy. That's to do with return on investment. Going back to the car example if you were investing in motor stock would you prefer a 30% profit or a 40% one? Remember the 60/70% production cost is just overheads for an investor, the fact that WHERE that money gets spent can have advantages in the local economy isn't an investment decision. That's why it's seen as better to outsource. Only the profit part of the equation matters.

Back in the early days Henry Ford did a very interesting thing. He paid his workers more to build his cars. He understood that his workers were also hios customers and that he could get more sales if more people could afford to buy. I suspect Nissan still runs that system. Ford no longer does.

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 11:21 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Repuglicans..... Demoncrats.......

It doesn't matter.

Do you like it in the butt?

Or swallowing?

Those are your only choices.

Line up, cause we're all getting raped.

I just hope the house of cards falls worldwide cause without the oppressive monetary system we all live under that controls our daily lives I'm wondering who would really come out on top. Then there will be a whole lot of people shutting their ignorant traps up.

I live for that day.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 4:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

ACCEPT THAT THE INCOME TAX IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

Many folk are well aware of that, thanks - try DOIN something about it, see what happens to ya.

Ain't enough folk willing to stand and deliver on the issue to make a damned bit of difference, while I fight the bastards for every penny...

On a brighter note, we DID finally kill off that damned "temporary" telephone line tax we've been saddled with since 1898, after pointing out that the war it was supposed to finance was over.


As far as our manufacturing goes, forget it, we've neglected it so badly the very infrastructure it rests upon is crumbling to bits, and it's actually started to impact the imperial warmachine it's being robbed to finance here and there with equipment and ammunition shortages just we just cannot build enough to supply the demand.

Vehicular engineering ain't what it used to be neither for the most part because the automakers don't WANT to sell cars that'll last 20 years, they want something that falls apart in five - and when folks cottoned to this ripoff, then came leasing programs to take the sting out of being humped.

It's almost hilarious in a way - I have a 99 Alero, the entire car is pure go-se, it's a deathtrap of the worst order and a line abandoned by GM with a huge conscience payment to avoid endless recalls, and to my knowledge, the vehicle I own is the only one known to have been Lemon-Law'ed TWICE, by two seperate owners, for two seperate sets of problems.

In spite of this, and the car being a trash heap on wheels, the engine itself has gone well over 100,000 miles without so much as a tuneup, just oil changes - so we're capable of it, they just don't do it because it wont sell as many cars.

Even foreign automakers have started playing this game in the last 20 years, the quality is nothing like it used to be, because it's not in their financial interest to build something that lasts forever.

You ever wanna see an ultimate feat of engineering, take a Honda Spree (NQ50) apart and put it back together, it's simple, it's effective well above and beyond it's intended use, easy to modify, and dead bang SIMPLE.
Not to mention it was dirt cheap to build, and inexpensive to buy.

If someone ever built a car to that style and school of engineering, the auto industry itself would be brought to it's knees in an instant.

There's even a partial design for such hovering around, called the "Wren", but no automaker would touch it, for the reasons mentioned above.

I would have to call the US Auto Industry a suicide, when it comes right down to it, cause they did it to themselves, press most folks to choose between nationalism and half the price for twice the quality, well, there you have it.

Slapping "Buy American!" stickers on junk you couldn't GIVE to third world countries only lasted em so long, and we told em so.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 7:18 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
under article 1 of the constitution, congress has the right* to regulate commerce with foreign nations, so that we can use the tax revenue to fund government. instead, the bankers began taxing our labor, unconstitutionally, along with a myriad of other socialist taxes.. and removed the levies on imports that we were reliant on, for revenue, and to preserve our home field advantage.

Yeah, I get you have a right to tax imports already, just look at what the French did too coke to protect wine, I also see how much you bitch when others do the same to you, it's called hypocrisy, it's pretty prevalent with American dealings with the outside world, as Fletch says, you want the Happy Time back, but brother, that ain't gonna happen.

As an aside, what happened to the American can do attitude anyway? Did it ever exist or was it merely an illusion of a country that had all the cards stacked in it's favour? How come American car companies can't compete with the Japanese, the Japanese have the same over heads, their not a third world nation, they just produce a better product, cheaper. As firma points out the failures of the American Auto Industry are of entirely their own making. To me your argument boils down significantly too "they made us compete openly with others and they're better than us, no fair WHAA!"

In another thread you are espousing the virtues of free market capitalism, how it's a Christian ideal that leads to freedom. Here you're dead set against it because those you're competing against have turned out to be better than you. Yeah, unrestrained free markets are great...

...when you're the one on top.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 10:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Noticed that, Didja ?

I think a little translation is in order.

They SAY: "Free Market"
They MEAN: "Protected Corporate Monopolies"

That help any ?

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 11:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Repuglicans..... Demoncrats.......

It doesn't matter.

Do you like it in the butt?

Or swallowing?

Those are your only choices.

Line up, cause we're all getting raped.

I just hope the house of cards falls worldwide cause without the oppressive monetary system we all live under that controls our daily lives I'm wondering who would really come out on top. Then there will be a whole lot of people shutting their ignorant traps up.

I live for that day.




You won't live to see the day that the 'oppresssive monetary system' fails. But if it did, what do you think would replace it, and how would be any different ? THIS, I live to hear.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 1:19 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Most likely barter - skills and information have value regardless of currency, and us mechanics will be as Gods unto the poor mechanically challenged masses.

BOW TO THE WRENCH, PEONS!
*insert maniacal laughter here*


-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 4:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'll go colonial style on your ass then brother. You ever see Gangs of New York?

Yeah, it's like that, except it's dirtier, uglier and it smells like horse shit. But the man would be no more and that'll put a big ugly grin on my toothless face.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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