REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What about the troops?

POSTED BY: CAUSAL
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 05:17
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2565
PAGE 2 of 2

Thursday, February 22, 2007 1:44 PM

SIMONWHO


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Your link to the BBC article is compelling--it would clearly seem that that guy should be locked away. But you are reasoning from single instances (like the murder of the girl, to global guilt (all serving in Iraq are guilty of war crimes). I din't commit any war crimes, nor did anyone I served with. So again, I ask you: am I a liar?



"That guy"? You make it sound like it was a lone gunman. In fact there were five of them, who planned this atrocity in advance. They raped a 14 year old and murdered a five year old girl in cold blood. Five of them.

This is why I'm doing a succession of posts with 'single' instances. What I'm wondering is how many abused Iraqis will it to make you admit there's a problem, not with one or two bad apples, but with the entire structure.

You can read more about the attack here, along with details about the conditions the soldiers were living in:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/iraq.familyslain/index.html

If someone doesn't support the troops - that's their decision. I think it's often a misguided one but there you are. But when people like Bush and Blair come forward and boast about how they support the troops... how? By giving them inadequate equipment? By not providing decent lodgings (see above)? By hanging them those who have been wounded out to dry?

And personally, no, I don't think you're lying when you say you've not committed any war crimes. But that's purely because you seem an intelligent, together guy. Would you claim that about every soldier serving in Iraq?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:23 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
"That guy"? You make it sound like it was a lone gunman. In fact there were five of them, who planned this atrocity in advance. They raped a 14 year old and murdered a five year old girl in cold blood. Five of them.



Yes, they did. Five of them. I don't deny that those men did that. But gee, I wonder why we haven't heard about the crimes of the other 85 men in their infantry platoon? Where are the terrible stories of their torture, rape and murder? Why haven't we heard about that? I maintain that the reason we haven't heard about all those crimes is because they did not happen. Apparently, you're still not getting it. I think that every single person who commits a crime during their service in Iraq should be punished accordingly. What you seem to be refusing to hear (let alone acknowledge) is my point, which is this: while all of your examples are compelling, they do not establish universal guilt on the part of all American servicemen in Iraq. Do you know how many Americans are currently serving in Iraq? On the order of 160,000. We've been there for four years, so in addition to the 160K, there are probably at least that many who are not now there who've served in the past. That would put the number of Americans who've served in Iraq at 320K. Now, even if 10,000 of those had committed some kind of atrocity (which I believe is a vast exaggeration, but let's go with that for the time being) that means that for every one atrocity-committing soldier, there are 32 who did nothing wrong. If, as you seem intent on suggesting, the commission of war-crimes is so wide spread that greater than half of American soldiers have committed some atrocity, there would have to be an enormous amount of evidence for such abuse. So why is it that we haven't heard about all that crime? I'm sure that you will simply ignore this point and post yet another story of wrong-doing, but please try to answer next time.

Quote:

What I'm wondering is how many abused Iraqis will it to make you admit there's a problem, not with one or two bad apples, but with the entire structure.



It will take one hell of a lot more than you've given so far. Your half-dozen examples are far from establishing universal guilt of the American servicemen in Iraq.

Quote:

If someone doesn't support the troops - that's their decision. I think it's often a misguided one but there you are. But when people like Bush and Blair come forward and boast about how they support the troops... how? By giving them inadequate equipment? By not providing decent lodgings (see above)? By hanging them those who have been wounded out to dry?



Have you ever served in a combat zone? I'm not sure if you knew this, but there isn't exactly a Hilton on every street corner in Iraq. Sometimes, you have to make your home where you find it, even if it's not optimal. That's not the fault of the civilian leadership of the military, it's the reality of combat. That would be why training exercises often involve tents, shovels and mud.

Quote:

And personally, no, I don't think you're lying when you say you've not committed any war crimes. But that's purely because you seem an intelligent, together guy. Would you claim that about every soldier serving in Iraq?



Well, obviously, it's impossible to claim about every solitary one because clearly, crimes have been committed. On the other hand, I can confidently say that the vast, vast majority of US servicemen in Iraq served honorably. Apparently, you are now in the habit of insulting the intelligence of the American military, as well as its moral fiber. Again, obviously, not every single servicemember in Iraq is the picture of intelligence. But again, the vast majority are at least intelligent and together enough not to commit war-crimes.

And just out of curiousity, where are your reams of stories about atrocities committed by the Brits? Or is it just us Yanks that aren't "intelligent" or "together" enough to turn to barbarism?__________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:54 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm a pretty bright chap regardless of what you have to say about it brother. I don't disagree with you about aiming blame at the top, but to think that it's all Bushes fault is asinine as well.

The troops aren't evil and I never said they were. The troops ARE puppets, however. They are mindless puppets and yes-men who are not required to think for themselves and are actually punished for doing so.

Do I want to see Americans die in a bullshit war we have no fucking business in? Of course I don't. I don't get all giddy when I read about more of our boys and girls dying all the time, but I don't feel bad for them either. They chose to do a job and they knew that they were signing their own lives and ability to think for themselves away in the process. They are part of a machine that doesn't give a shit about them. They will get no tears from me.

If my brother was to die, that's a different story. That's why I said what I did about people you know and love in the millitary. Otherwise, fuck the administration, fuck the troops and fuck the war.

You should have titled this thread "The Troops Are Not Evil", if it was a rhetorical question to which you already knew the answer.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:54 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm a pretty bright chap regardless of what you have to say about it brother. I don't disagree with you about aiming blame at the top, but to think that it's all Bushes fault is asinine as well.

The troops aren't evil and I never said they were. The troops ARE puppets, however. They are mindless puppets and yes-men who are not required to think for themselves and are actually punished for doing so.

Do I want to see Americans die in a bullshit war we have no fucking business in? Of course I don't. I don't get all giddy when I read about more of our boys and girls dying all the time, but I don't feel bad for them either. They chose to do a job and they knew that they were signing their own lives and ability to think for themselves away in the process. They are part of a machine that doesn't give a shit about them. They will get no tears from me.

If my brother was to die, that's a different story. That's why I said what I did about people you know and love in the millitary. Otherwise, fuck the administration, fuck the troops and fuck the war.

You should have titled this thread "The Troops Are Not Evil", if it was a rhetorical question to which you already knew the answer.



Here's my question: do you hold the American soldiers reponsible for the problems in Iraq? That's the question. I served there and in Afghanistan, and I want to know if you think that I'm partly to blame for the situation there? Would it be legitimate, for instance, to vent your anger at the situation at me, being that I'm one of the servicemen that fought in Iraq? That's what I want to know. Regardless of what you may think, I am not impugning your intelligence. You've ably proven that you have plenty of that, in a number of other threads. I want to know why American military forces don't deserve at least your gratitude for their service to the country. I'm not asking for you to throw a ticker tape parade. I'm wondering why it is that you would not be grateful that there are people willing to put their lives on the line in service to their country? Or is it the case that they only get that gratitude when you personally approve of the mission that they are asked to perform?

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:42 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Casual:
I served there and in Afghanistan, and I want to know if you think that I'm partly to blame for the situation there? Would it be legitimate, for instance, to vent your anger at the situation at me, being that I'm one of the servicemen that fought in Iraq?



This is a very loaded question, at least from my perspective. I think that surely depends on an individual basis, as I am able to distinguish between people who would enjoy torturing prisonors or killing the "enemy" as opposed to someone like my brother, or I would imagine you, who find this deplorable. I also realize that when thrust into a life or death situation you're going to take him down without a thought if your own death is the alternative. I would never spit on a soldier personally.

I know you don't want to hear it, but yes, in a way I do hold the individual responsible partially for what we're doing to those people. I don't share the opinion that we are doing anything to help those people. If we lived in a Utopia, or at least a place where our Government wasn't trying to screw its own people and completely micromanage their lives, and we didn't have one of the highest murder rates in the world at the same time, I might think we were doing something to better their way of life. Things being the way they are, I can't imagine that life for them will be any better when we turn them into a Godless "Democracy" puppet state.

I've already said that I understand the dilemma of obeying the chain of command. If we had an millitary where soldiers were constantly questioning their orders and their superiors, it would have fallen apart a long time ago. Things are the way they are, in that respect, because that's the way they have to be.

So in this regards, no I don't blame the soldier. What are you supposed to do? Say fuck you to your superiors and orders and end up in the clink? Go AWOL and basically ruin your life and be on the run?

It's a very hard question here loaded with doublethink, because for every reason I can find to be angry with the soldiers there's most likely a reason why I should be greatful to them as well.

I think the biggest factor at play here in this is the fact that our own Government abuses its power here at home with its own people and is constantly amongst itself tooth and nail with our broken 2 party system. Not to mention the Cable NEWS shows that poison the minds of the people with a lot of garbage they didn't even need to know. Many people are seeing past the illusion that there is even 2 parties at all and that they are only there to give the average beat-down Joe the illusion of choice. This is a thought once only contemplated by conspiracy theorists, but like it or not, it is becoming much more mainstream now and will only worsen the longer this war goes on. How many times do I have to hear vote "the lesser of two evils"?

Bullshit!

Why can't we get another party or three in there? At least one that wants to go in and start repealing some of the laws which constantly restrict our freedoms and decision making and our supposed "Free Market"? Somebody who will do what it takes to remove illegal monopolies which are sprining up in all sectors of trade that are so in bed with either party that they don't even really try hiding it anymore. We've all let the Government into our own homes and they will never leave now. This happened when people started to believe that they had to rely on the Government as opposed to the Government simply being an institution to serve the people.

As they grow in power, they're even more free to make decisions, such as this war which effects all of our lives drastically, without the conscent of the people. It allows them to lie to us and spread propoganda and work us into such a rage, as the year after 9/11, that we're foaming at the mouth and want revenge so badly that it blinds us to the fact that we're allowing them to go after everyone else who wasn't even involved in 9/11 while we're there. Why do we allow it? Because they're all the same color and we're too stupid to know the difference between and Afgani and an Iraqi?

The sad truth is, this war that our Government dragged us all into may NEVER end now. It will likely spread stateside in the not-so-distant future. I'm not looking forward to suicide bombings in our malls and schools and soldiers taking quarters in our homes and throwing the Constitution right out the window.

I don't trust our Government, therefore, I don't trust our soldiers because they MUST carry out government orders. As soon as you sign up, you are one of THEM. I know that sounds all conspiracy theory, but the truth is, there is very little trust and love for our Government in this country anymore right now. It's getting harder and harder for me, and many other people, to destinguish the Soldier and the Government.

If was to ever meet you at one of the conventions, I'd buy you a beer and thank you for being out there and listen to you tell me what a bullheaded and arrogant prick I can be.

Ya know Casual... I just figured it out I think. When you became a soldier, you became two separate entities in one. You are now Casual the soldier, and Casual the human being. I'd have Casual the human being over for Poker any night of the week, but Casual the soldier is not allowed in my apartment. Fortunately now that you're back, I believe that you are Casual the Human Being again.

Sorry if you don't like that, and sorry if you don't like my attitude to soldiers. It's not as if I actively talk shit about soldiers, nor do I have any bumper stickers speaking bad about them. Because of the pros and cons mentioned above I kind of have an indifferent point of view. I want this war over more for myself and the people I care about far more than for any soldier, even those under fire as we speak.

So I guess I appreciate the ideals. The idea that a person has that they are signing up with the millitary to protect us. For that individual act of courage and selflessness I am very greatful. If I didn't have such a negative outlook on what the Government does to its own people and to others around the world, soldiers wouldn't be guilty by association. When they're back here and they're out of uniform, I'm glad that they made it home alright and I hope they never have to be deployed again. Until then, unless you were my friend or brother going in, I really couldn't care less. I won't actively bash soldiers, but I won't pretend that the war and the soldiers are seperable in any way either.

As for whether or not I think they only get gratitude if I approve of the war or not, why is that so hard to accept? Maybe one day we have marshall law here when we've allowed all of the terrorists to come into our country. They're already here my friend. When they get organized we're in a lot of trouble because we refuse, and are unable by law, to profile racially. If you've read any of my threads in here I'm not a racist, but even black and mexican comics say that it's rediculous when Greg Brady is getting stopped at the airport and hassled because of the PC laws we have in effect. George Bush told us years ago that the terrorists weren't the people in our neighborhoods yet not even a month later they arrested a man less that two miles from where I grew up at a 24/7 Convenience store in Oak Lawn, IL for suspicions of terrorist activity and raising funds for a terrorist organization. The enemy is here and when this actually does happen, you can bet your ass that the millitary might required stateside is going to be accompanied by a strong hatered for the millitary by the American people. Especially after our government did everything in it's power for so many years to disarm the public beforehand so we're completely reliant upon them for our safety. Sorry... but them's the breaks.



I appreciate the tone of your posts Casual. I know I can be pretty abrasive sometimes and there are others in the RWED that are just plain trolls in human clothes. You've got a very good temperment, and I have a lot of respect for that. Perhaps you have the millitary training to thank for that. It's not as if everything millitary is bad in my eyes.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 23, 2007 3:18 AM

CAUSAL


Whoa. Guess I didn't expect all of that.

Interestingly, you and I seem to have had a similar sort of a journey (though probably from different starting places). Prior to the Iraq war, I was very much a die-hard conservative Republican, waving the flag for W. and the War on Terror. But as I sat my ass in Kuwait, waiting for the go order, I just couldn't help but wonder, "What are we doing? We're preemptively invading another country?" It wasn't like Afghanistan. I had no qualms with that. The 9/11 attacks were planned out of there and Al Qaida was based out of there, and we even gave them a chance to give up bin Ladin. But in Iraq--sure, Hussien's a baddie, but an aggressive invasion? That's not the American way (pardon the platitude--but it ain't). But I did my duty and kept my guys alive, and they kept me alive, and we all made it back in one piece (thank God we were so lucky). But the longer the war went on, the more upset I became about it. We hadn't made the world safer. We'd just opened up the biggest terrorist training camp (aka the Iraq War) since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. So I started to think long and hard about President Bush. Now I was in intelligence, so I don't agree with the whole Bush-lied angle. But Bush is a fool? You bet. Bush is too much a hawk? Damned skippy. But the more I got to thinking about it, the more I realized that the Dems aren't really any different. On surface issues they look light years different. But they aren't really. They just want to hang on to power as long as possible. They just use different talking points to get and keep it. So now I'm in a situation where I don't really trust that the government has my best interest in mind any more. Not very comfortable, is it? So I can at least understand your ambivalence towards the military. The military is a branch of the government, and you don't quite trust the government, therefore maybe you shouldn't trust the military. Understandable, at least. I can at least envision a possible scenario where the military is used domestically in improper ways. I hope to God it never comes to that. But at the same time, those poor guys in Iraq just wanted the GI Bill or to learn a trade, or to get out of poverty or (yes) to serve their country. And now they're being asked to do a shitty job by that same government. My version of "support the troops" is this: 1) thank the ones who've served, 2) advocate for us to figure a way out of this mess so they're not being shot at any more. That seems to be the best kind of support we could offer.

For the record, I was a sailor--US Navy.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 23, 2007 12:03 PM

SIMONWHO


Just to reiterate - I don't believe that all soldiers serving in Iraq are "evil" or guilty of war crimes. However I do believe that the behaviour of our troops in the country has had so many reprehensible incidents that the people of Iraq will hate us for generations. Remember it being marketed as a war of liberation? The attitude of the troops has put paid to that idea.

Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
And just out of curiousity, where are your reams of stories about atrocities committed by the Brits? Or is it just us Yanks that aren't "intelligent" or "together" enough to turn to barbarism?



Oh, there's plenty of Brit stories out there. Check out the following video where British soldiers drag some children in off the streets and beat the crap out of them. Decide for yourself which one is more unsettling, the troops beating up defenceless kids or the cameraman screaming with delight as they collapse under the blows.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3884035267639445814

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 23, 2007 6:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hey Casual. Yeah, a lot to read there I know. You asked a very legitimate question and considering everything that factors into my answer I didn't feel that I would be doing either of us any justice by giving you a few sentences for a reply. Frem said something about how minds like his in mine work in another thread and I think that he's pretty on the money. Rarely does my stance on any issue come from one or two other things, but more often a hundred or a thousand things happning at a time that I connect together. A lot of the time they seemingly have nothing to do with each other unless somebody points them out to you and does a good job explaining how they came to that conclusion. The hardest part about all that is I'm rarely ever able to get those points across to anybody in a digestible mannar, so I'm almost always arguing with somebody in here or rubbing them the wrong way. The only reason that it's any different in "real" life is that I tend not to delve so deep into issues when I'm face to face with people.

I usually am pretty good natured about it but the last couple of weeks I've been digging my heels in. I know better. I've read "How to Win Frineds and Influence People" and the number one rule is if you come at somebody combatively and arguementally they're never going to listen to anything you have to say, regardless of it's legitimacy. I've got some real heavy stuff going on with my family and it's kind of like a boil coming to a head. I know that's no excuse for some of my behavior in here though. I know that having served in the millitary yourself, this is a very personal topic to you and I think after a few of my posts earlier, you could have been well within your right to tear into me, but instead you calmly asked me the question in a different way and kept an open mind. I thank you and that's why I took the time to give you a real response.... that and I had a really slow day a "work" so I had a little more time to burn than usual.

Anyways... I think I may have actually managed to get my point across here, which is a rarity, and I'm pleased to see that it looks as though we pretty much see eye to eye. One thing that I neglected to mention earlier that i feel needs to be said though is that I believe that our Veterans who are injured physically and mentally do not get the support they diserve. I think that, regardless of the validity of the "poliece action", it was particularly shitty how Nam vets were treated by the Goverenment and civillians alike when they came back home. It must have been a nightmare for them to come home and have civilians spit on them and the Government basically turn their backs on them after the loyalty they had shown and the sacrafices they had made. I can't really fault the civilians attitudes there up to a certain point for the reasons in the last post and scenarios like "Kent State", but when they came back and nobody was in there corner... well, I think you get the point. I'm glad that when they're coming back now they have friends to come back to and there's not the insanely high death count that there was in Nam.

My brother will be going to DC this year and plans on meeting up with some people from fff. I won't say who he is on fff because I think I got me a few people who don't care for me too much here and I don't want to associate him with that. He doesn't post in here, but I'll just mention that he is in the 76th. I haven't decided if I'm going to burn the vacation and the cash on the trip yet myself, but it does sound like fun. Thanks for serving, I'm glad you're back, and if I do make it to DC this year and you're there, I'll buy ya that beer I promised.


Simonwho - It is unfortunate, the stories that we hear about the behavior of our troops and the negative effects that will come of those actions. You mention it being "marketed" as a war of Liberation and I think that's a very valid point. Unfortunately, I think just the reverse is happening now. I do believe that these incidents are far and few between, at least much less often that would have happened in Nam (innocient women and children being gunned down by chopper come to mind). I think what's happening now is that the Liberal Media is "Marketing" our soldiers and the war with a different slant than before. There really is an agenda here, and it's worked flawlessly so far by ensuring that the Dems had control of the house and the senate. They're working on the Presidency here and if they can get over the hump of getting voters to actually vote in the first woman or African American president than the Dems will control all three which is scary. Our Government hurts us the least when they're too busy fighting each other to make a lot of laws. I don't like the idea of one side getting their way with little opposition for years.

I'm obviously no supporter of the war and I'm not against pulling our troops out tomorrow if it were possible, but there is definately a very negative anti-American slant that the Media has been "marketing" to all of us for quite a while now even stateside. The fact that you hear so much about a few solidiers guilty of doing horrible things a billion times in one week on CNN, FOX, MSN, AOL, the Times, the Tribune, weblogs, etc., etc., etc.... make it seem as though this happens much more than it actually does.

Just my thoughts on this.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 23, 2007 8:08 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
My version of "support the troops" is this: 1) thank the ones who've served, 2) advocate for us to figure a way out of this mess so they're not being shot at any more. That seems to be the best kind of support we could offer.

Damn right. I've said before, and I'll say again. Support our troops by making sure we risk their lives ONLY as a last resort. Don't take their willingness, and the willingness of their families, to sacrifice themselves for granted. Go to war only when we would all do it ourselves. I think that was the intent of the Constitution in requiring Congress to declare war. It has to be something the overwhelming majority feels strongly about.

Quote:

Here's my question: do you hold the American soldiers reponsible for the problems in Iraq?
No. Anthony's analogy is actually pretty good. Don't blame the waiters for the bad cooking.

However, having said that, I wish there were more soldiers standing up against the war like Watada. I don't blame them for not doing it, but given the corruption of our government, I don't see how badly conceived wars are going to end without more protests from both citizens and soldiers alike.

I think about soldiers in the Israeli Defense Forces. They are quite frequently instruments of oppression, and sometimes it seems, quite voluntarily so. The government's policies and methods are intractable--there is no way anyone can change them. So some soldiers have taken it upon themselves to refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories. The list of "refuseniks" is growing.

This is not the desirable fix. But when the commanding powers are corrupt beyond repair, it ultimately falls to the soldiers to refuse to serve in immoral wars. Perhaps we aren't there yet, but I'm afraid we are approaching that scenario.

Edited to add: As much as I oppose this war and most wars, I absolutely have no tolerance for anyone spitting on a soldier or otherwise insulting or degrading a soldier. It is evil and cruel.

I used to work exclusively with Vietnam veterans and their families. For all the traumatic stress they suffered during war, the most painful and enduring traumas occurred when they returned "home" to spiteful hostility. They expect the enemy to be hostile. They don't expect their fellow countrymen to be vile.

No matter how wrong a war is, these soldiers put their lives on the line. No one should ever cheapen a sacrifice like that.

And another pet peeve. Our govt uses up these men and women, and then spits them out when they get home. It exposes these folks to unnecessary dangers for whatever reason (experimental vaccines, dioxin, the war itself), and then deny all responsibility when things go wrong. We don't have adequate services for our veterans, period. And I say we, because ultimately, WE allow our govt to do this to our veterans.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, February 26, 2007 6:47 AM

SIMONWHO


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:

I used to work exclusively with Vietnam veterans and their families. For all the traumatic stress they suffered during war, the most painful and enduring traumas occurred when they returned "home" to spiteful hostility. They expect the enemy to be hostile. They don't expect their fellow countrymen to be vile.

No matter how wrong a war is, these soldiers put their lives on the line. No one should ever cheapen a sacrifice like that.



Did any of those you treated confess to what would now be considered war crimes? Did you not think that if someone (as indeed many American soldiers were) actually did kill babies, that "spiteful hostility" is the very least they deserved?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:09 PM

JASONZZZ



The constitutionality of the military action in Iraq is such an on going debate. It isn't illegal and it hasn't been declared as that in any courts, the legality of the action has yet been successfully challenged. The fact that dems today are hamstrung over how exactly to stop the war tells me that there isn't any problems with the POTUS's authority in declaring military action.

The War Powers act gives the POTUS unilateral decision in taking military action for 60 days before he (so far, no she yet, but who knows) has to seek congressional approval. Further, Congress in fact passed resolution in Oct 2002 to allow POTUS to use all force necessary to secure the US from all threads by Iraq and to enforce all UN council resolutions.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

Besides, Congress really haven't "declared" war since WWII, all of them "wars" that US have fought have all really been military actions - all approved by Congress though.

I think in fact there were several challenges on the legality of the "war" and the courts found that Congress at the very least "implicitly" approves of the war thru repeated and continual appropriation of funding for all of these military actions.



Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:


Is there an Offical, recorded Congressional Declaration of War on Iraq ?
No.

THEN THERE IS NO WAR, Constitutionally.


Don't throw that goddamned piece of paper in our faces, Frem. (Kidding- in the not-so-funny way)

Peeps not exposed directly to abuse of power have a hard time dealing with how complicated and subtle it can be. I've been in contact with it on the court judge/police officer level, and it's quite surprising to see at first; it makes you feel like you're in a bad TV movie. You wanna ask them "So, you're a good guy? What are the bad ones like?"


Just tossin' that in Chrisisall



Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs new equipment to keep the site shiny. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13317#185514

Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:30 PM

JASONZZZ



If they killed unarmed and completely innocent babies who provoked no threat or violence at all (or any other type of war crime), then they should be tried and face whatever punishment is due. If they didn't do any of that, then they absolutely do not IMHO deserve anything but our humble respect for their dedication to serve this country rightfully or not in spite of the fact that people absolutely hated them... What dark times it must be to trump up enough courage to serve your own country when so many of us hate the people who do and to lay their lives down so that we can all have the freedom to glibly debate their mentality and morality for obeying the orders that civilians give them...


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:

I used to work exclusively with Vietnam veterans and their families. For all the traumatic stress they suffered during war, the most painful and enduring traumas occurred when they returned "home" to spiteful hostility. They expect the enemy to be hostile. They don't expect their fellow countrymen to be vile.

No matter how wrong a war is, these soldiers put their lives on the line. No one should ever cheapen a sacrifice like that.



Did any of those you treated confess to what would now be considered war crimes? Did you not think that if someone (as indeed many American soldiers were) actually did kill babies, that "spiteful hostility" is the very least they deserved?



Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs new equipment to keep the site shiny. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13317#185514

Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:34 PM

JASONZZZ



Think of it this way, if soldiers, and given our military in general, are free to act on their feelings - we would no longer have a civilian controlled military; we would officially have a well paid mob. This is how military coups happen, when the fellas/gals with the guns starts making decisions on their own about what needs to be done and not directly obeying civilian authority.

I do not want to live in that sort of place... As beautiful as Malaysia is, I'd just like to visit there when there isn't an active military coup going on.


Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs new equipment to keep the site shiny. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13317#185514

Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 16, 2007 3:44 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Soldiers are citizens first, soldiers second. Soldiers take a sworn oath "to protect and defend the US Consituttion from enemies foreign and domestic".

The Uniform Code of Military Justice requires soldiers to ignore illegal orders, and to arrest their coworkers and "superiors" for all crimes.

"I vas jus follwing ze odahs" is never a valid legal defense during courts martial, not at Nurenburg, and not in the Iraq Wars.

A sergent from my hometown testified in his court martial yesterday, as reqorted on network snews channels. His defense is that his troops massacred POWs, and then turned on him to save themselves from the death penalty. His defense is that his commanders gave them an unlawful order to "kill every military age male". But he never told his soldiers to ignore that order. This moron then testified that he covered up the crime by attacking his soldiers with his knife, and punched them in the face, to make it look like the POWs attacked them. In all courts, a criminal is guilty of murder, if he assists in any part of the crime, even when he did not pull the trigger himself (Charles Mansen was never accuses of committing a murder himself). Our local TV disinfo babes are treating this moron as a hero, trying to sell the sheeple to volunteer for the Afghan/Iraq/Iran meatgrinder....
www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=43345

My wife pointed out that in her NCO experience during Gulf War #1, her troops always listened to her rather than an officer, and she told them to ignore all those illegal orders from their commanders, or they would go to jail. Her commanders were all fired, and Dick Cheney offered her a bribe, er, job to work directly for him at the Pentagon. Congress and the IG found billions of dollars missiing during their audits into the govt contracts she identified. The USAF chief of staff was fired while leading Gulf War #1, becuase we filed felony charges against him for lying to Congress during the IG investigations. After she retired, the Veterans Administration, White House and Congress stole her pension, as perped against 95% of all retired disabled veterans.
www.piratenews.org/pentagon_whistleblower.html

If every soldier had the guts and brains to do this, there would be no more wars, and no more treason by the White House. Jr Bush is a convicted criminal alcoholic coke-addicted draft deserter, who is NOT "commander in chief", since Congress never declared war. Jr is just another govt employee, who can be arrested at any time for his 100,000s of felonies.

Any citizen has the authority to file criminal charges, or make a citizen's arrest, of any govt employee eyewitnessed perping a misdemeanor, or suspected or accused of perping a felony. I've done this many times as a civilian, and it always works against gangster employees of Gangsta Govt, including a Skull & Bones mayor/ambassador:
www.piratenews.org/affidavit-criminal-complaint13jun05.htm

I'm currently seeking the arrest of the billionaire mayor of Knoxville Tennessee, for turning over city court and replacing city police with a foreign corporation in AUSTRALIA. Many lawyers and state politicians are now joining my side in this battle, with 2 bills pending in the state legislature, quoting my proposed amendment to the city ordinance as I testified in city council.
www/piratenews.org/kill-robocops.html

I'm also seeking the arrest of the governor of Tennessee, along with the entire state police, for selling fake driver licenses to 250,000 illegal alien enemy combatants:
www/piratenews.org/warning-to-bikers-on-deals-gap-dragon129.html

USA is currently in a Civil War / Revolutionary War / World War, with the latest battles on 9/11/2001 and in the bombing/flooding of New Orleans, both crimes perped by the Bush White House and his royal cousins running the British Empire. The REAL war front is on the Mexician and Canadian borders, and the sea ports in USA (now run by the Communist Chinese military and British Empire in USA). Canada has been identified in participating in the 9/11 attacks against USA. These are the nations that our US soldiers must start killing people NOW, until those rogue nations surrender unconditionally, or their citizens overthrow their criminal dictatorships. Nukes must be used ASAP, not in Iran and iraq, but in Toronto, London. Mexico City and Jerusalem, preferably before they are used in USASPP. The NWO has already nuked USA 1,050 times, according to History Channel TV. Just this week "depleted" radioactive uranium spontaneously combusted (as it always does when exposed to air), here in my hometown of Knoxville, at our nuke bomb factories. My job in USAF was sabotaging US military bases, sabotaging US aircraft, and sabotaging nuke bombs using plastic explosives (Operation Gladio?). US nukes in England were targeted at US troops in Western Europe, NOT targeted at Communist Europe. We have some very interesting days ahead...

ALL orders from a Bush are ILLEGAL, both military and civilian. He's just a dictator, as he confessed on live TV.

Quote:


"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, heh heh heh, just so long as I'm the dictator, heh heh heh."
— George Bush Jr, final president of USA, after his Security & Prosperity Partnership merger of USA with Communist Mexico and Communist Canada (a member of the 53-nation British Commonwealth owned by Bushes' 19th cousin (3rd removed) of the German Queen of England, birthplace of the Communist Manifesto). The 2008 "presidential" selections will merely appoint the preapproved US Territory governor for the North American Union (a corporate subdivision of the British Empire aka New World Order global slave plantation)
www.vestigialconscience.com/bush-dictator.mpeg
www.spp.gov




CNN, September 3, 2003:

TUCKER CARLSON: A lot of entertainers have come out against the war in Iraq. Have you?

BRITNEY SPEARS: Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision he makes and should just support that, you know, and be faithful in what happens.
CARLSON: Do you trust this president?

SPEARS: Yes, I do.

www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Music/09/03/cnna.spears/





CNN, March 5, 2007:

Jury finds homosexual Jewish White House chief of staff Lewis Libby GUILTY of treason. Jew Dick Cheney has stroke, er, thrombosis, discusses resignation. 8 US soldiers were exploded to bits in Iraq, not counting those who don't die instantly. And "REPORTS have emerged from the UK that fallen pop star Britney Spears tried to hang herself with a bedsheet during rehab, after screaming that she was the "anti-christ". She made the demonic cry after scrawling the devil's number "666" across her head. Within days of her suicidal behaviour, Spears - who was in and out of rehab before shaving her own head and later attacking a photographer's car with an umbrella - was begging estranged husband Kevin Federline not only for a reconciliation, but demanding she wanted to soon have another baby."

www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21325695-5001021,00.html





"Open up on em! Blow them away!"
-Lt Hugh Thompson, US Army helicopter pilot, telling his gunners to massacre US soldiers at the My Lai Massacre during the Vietnam War, winner of the Distinguished Flying Cross and Soldiers Medal at the White House
www.cnn.com/US/9803/06/my.lai.ceremony/

"Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests. They've got a big target on there, ATF. Don't shoot at that, because they've got a vest on underneath that. Head shots, head shots. Kill the sons of bitches. If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms insists upon a firefight, give them a firefight. Just remember, they're wearing flak jackets and you're better off shooting for the head."
-G Gordon Liddy, Nixon White House attorney at law, FBI agent, convicted Watergate felon, on his national neocon radio show in 1994
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Gordon_Liddy

"How can I get the Captain to shoot a cop in the face, and make it right? That extra moment of sadism - that's the thing that says it's okay, buddy, you're not up to spec, you're going down!"
-Joss the Boss, Firefly DVD, censored Episode 1 "Serenity"

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556

www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

PNTV banned at Gitmo!
www.piratenews.org/hollywood.html


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 25, 2012 9:19 PM

JASONZZZ



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 5:17 AM

BYTEMITE


If you're just a guy trying to get a scholarship for school or support a young family back home, my unease about your involvement is tempered by an understanding about the difficulties of your circumstances - it's rough coming home to a country that distrusts you, and I've no doubt your experiences have been hard and there's pretty much no support or funding anymore for returning veterans.

You went over to fight in another country while the government was whittling away our "freedoms" HERE. It's classic misdirection, and you're the victim as much as anyone.

Thing is, while I can sympathize with you, I know there's bad mojo going on over there and all the hands are bloody. Chances are while you were over there you relied on the regular degree of piss-poor intelligence during action at least once. And intelligence is worse over there than anything I've ever seen, so when the intelligence is wrong, innocent people DO die.

Ultimately, I don't really want your protection. No one ASKED you to sacrifice for me or anyone. I don't understand how you can expect me to feel grateful for you soldiers lining up to go and get slaughtered. Water's rising, leadership's to blame, but y'all keep jumping in the pool.

And frankly I don't see how forcing our will on foreigners by gun point protects any of us anyway. I think even though you probably feel differently, you got yourself shot at and nearly blown up and I think it probably wasn't anything to do with preserving freedom back home OR abroad.

Lastly I think you've probably been trained to follow orders just a little too well. Sir.

So yeah, unfortunately military service is not the badge of honor it once might have been. Sorry you got that shock, we can be a little bit rude about this. But then, we also don't like being guilted or shamed or trampled by any high horses for a war none of us believed in or asked for, and while that may not be how you meant it, might've been how it came across.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Obama really IS the 2nd coming of Jimmy Carter!
Sat, August 23, 2014 15:04 - 10 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine
Sat, August 23, 2014 14:13 - 143 posts
Remember free government cheese?
Sat, August 23, 2014 11:50 - 3 posts
Another Unarmed Black Teen Killed
Sat, August 23, 2014 08:01 - 351 posts
Celebrating the greatness and heroism of Richard Nixon
Fri, August 22, 2014 23:04 - 21 posts
More great moments from that religion of PEACE !
Fri, August 22, 2014 21:56 - 43 posts
So brave. My heart goes out to them.
Fri, August 22, 2014 21:43 - 8 posts
Barack Obama criticised for golf outing with friends straight after James Foley speech
Fri, August 22, 2014 21:29 - 9 posts
CLIMATE MCCARTHYISM
Fri, August 22, 2014 20:35 - 47 posts
I don't even know what most of you are talking about anymore.....
Fri, August 22, 2014 19:43 - 19 posts
I wasn't there for Yuna.....
Fri, August 22, 2014 19:28 - 11 posts
ebay can be the poor man's friend.....
Fri, August 22, 2014 19:15 - 15 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL

OUR SPONSORS