REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Definition of Hyprocracy

POSTED BY: REDLAVA
UPDATED: Sunday, December 31, 2006 04:57
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3072
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Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:47 AM

REDLAVA


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/12/MNG8TMU1KQ
1.DTL


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16175897/

Now here I thought that the Christian Right wanted violent video games off the market. But here they are with a game where the object is to convert non-believers to Christianity and if they refuse, you KILL them. But of course by praying afterwards you regain your "spirit points" that you lost after the killing. That's a great message to send kids. It's okay to kill non-believers, just pray afterwards and everything will be fine. I thought that is what radical Islamic Fundamentalist did.





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Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:53 AM

SIGMANUNKI



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Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:53 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Redlava:

I thought that is what radical Islamic Fundamentalist did.




I'm not sure that's true. I don't think that they have to pray afterwards aside from the regular regime.

But yes, very scary. Isn't this the same game that people are all up in arms about b/c Wallmart is carrying it? Family friendly only merchandise my eye.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:34 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


So... does that finally make Wal-Mart the AntiChrist? Or, is it the other way around?


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Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:19 PM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by Redlava:
But here they are with a game where the object is to convert non-believers to Christianity and if they refuse, you KILL them.


The goal of the Tribulation Force is to save as many people from the clutches of the antichrist as possible.

Your purpose is absolutely NOT to wipe out the enemy forces – remember, those are PEOPLE he has deceived.


(from: http://www.eternalforces.com/characters.aspx?sect=Tribulation)

Also...

Quote:

And if your forces accidentally kill neutral innocents, their spirit drops further: The act of murder actually has a moral dimension in this game.

(from: http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2006/12/left_behind_the.
html
)

Imagine actually being penalized for murdering someone in a game? I can see how that might irritate some folks who'd prefer the myriad of games where there is zero accountability for incessant blood-letting.

Also...

Quote:

Turn or Burn?

A pretty significant question remains, though. How do peace and prayer go hand in hand with tanks, attack choppers and street battles? Despite what's been "reported," your Left Behind units do not easily form into some kind of roving militia intent on killing non-believers. In fact, there are no missions in the game aimed at causing a war or killing others. You train up soldiers only to defend your people when Carpathia starts sending in the big guns.


(from: http://www.pluggedinonline.com/thisweekonly/a0002989.cfm)

I'm wondering if the critical reviewers actually played the game? I suspect they just wanted to spew more of their anti-Christian bias, and found this an easy-enough target.

Quote:

Originally posted by Redlava:
That's a great message to send kids. It's okay to kill non-believers, just pray afterwards and everything will be fine.


Yeah, but unfortunately (for critics of this game) that's not the message of the game.

I'd also be curious to know how these same crtical reviewers felt about the "Grand Theft Auto" series of games, which do include bloody, gory violence, rape, beatings, etc. But I suppose that murder, beatings, and rape are fine, it's just "Christian conversion" that our children need to be sheltered from.

If anyone is a hypocrite, it's these game reviewers, and the people who believe their obviously-biased, anti-evangelical nonsense.

If nothing else, these reviews only underscore my previous assertion of society's vivid anti-Christian hatred and bias. These reviews come as no surprise to me in the least.

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:57 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


I’m not sure where there is any hypocrisy here. What I see is another shoot-em-up video game, which are quite common on a myriad of subjects. And this one doesn’t seem to be nearly as bad as many others.

I also don’t know what the “Christian Right” has to do with anything. The only political groups I see mentioned here are DefCon and the Christian Alliance for Progress, both of which are quite Left-wing. I don’t see anything mentioned about the “Christian Right,” whatever that is, advocating this game.

As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children. I don’t really know much about this video game, but others I’ve played, like Grand Theft Auto, are really ridiculous.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The question remains: who would Jesus kill?

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:53 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The question remains: who would Jesus kill?

I can see the t-shirts now: WWJK?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, December 22, 2006 10:59 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children. I don’t really know much about this video game, but others I’ve played, like Grand Theft Auto, are really ridiculous.

Which is probably why they're not marketed at children. I dunno about the states but over here GTA is an 18 certificate.

Did anyone else catch Cartoons little bit. It's okay to kill them because they're under the influence of the Anti-Christ, that's why they're non-believers. Not real violence because they're not real people (like all non-christians eh cart), so okay to kill, kinda puts Cartoons real thoughts better than I could.



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Friday, December 22, 2006 11:59 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Yeah, I did notice that.

And there's the problem with the storyline. What I get is that the true believers are taken up (the rapture) while the rest are 'left behind'. It's after that that the anti-Christ comes to power on earth. So if everyone on earth is already doomed as a non-believer, why are there xtians fighting the anti-Christ on earth?

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Friday, December 22, 2006 1:08 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The question remains: who would Jesus kill?

I can see the t-shirts now: WWJK?



But, I thought it was "Who Who Jesus Bomb"?

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Friday, December 22, 2006 5:08 PM

TRAVELER


It is the price you pay for freedom of speech. This one probably costs $39.95. Wait till after Christmas and get it for $19.95.

Is Wal-Mart the only store selling this game? Is that why they are mentioned in the article?

If it is rated for 18 and over, than you can not say it is twisting young minds. If a parent allows their child to play this game, we do not have a right to stop them.

The whole thing sounds repulsive to me, but I do not have the right to ban someone elses ideas. If I do enforce my will, than I am open to having someone ban my ideas.

We have to trust in people's good judgement. If the game is as repulsive as it sounds it will only be bought by people with that brand of thinking already.

I can not imagine the majority of Christians would condone such a game in their house.


Traveler

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Friday, December 22, 2006 5:17 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


But it's so easy to make fun of ...

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Friday, December 22, 2006 5:21 PM

TRAVELER


We have Rosie and Trump insulting each other. How much more fun are we allowed?


Traveler

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Friday, December 22, 2006 5:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So true, so true ...

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Friday, December 22, 2006 6:17 PM

TRAVELER


Meanwhile I am getting the copyrights on the WWJK tee shirts and accessories.


Traveler

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Friday, December 22, 2006 6:41 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Which is probably why they're not marketed at children. I dunno about the states but over here GTA is an 18 certificate.

It is marketed to children; that’s why Grand Theft Auto and games like it are the most popular games among children. And the US uses the ESRB rating system, but in the US, much like in Britain, it is rarely enforced by retailers, and seemingly completely ignored by parents.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, December 22, 2006 10:02 PM

TRAVELER


I notice some parents don't know what their children are seeing. It is up to the parents to be aware. If they want the government to protect them, then you have "Big Brother". Not the way I recommend going.


Traveler

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Friday, December 22, 2006 11:17 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It is marketed to children; that’s why Grand Theft Auto and games like it are the most popular games among children. And the US uses the ESRB rating system, but in the US, much like in Britain, it is rarely enforced by retailers, and seemingly completely ignored by parents.

I don't remember seeing any advertisements aiming GTA or any other certificate game at Children. Also I hardly think parents giving their Children games they aren't old enough for is the fault of the game or it's developer. I can't see any viable argument for why either the game or developer should be held to account for either a retailers desire to make profit even if they're breaking the law, nor a parent who can't be bothered to actually parent.

Sounds like blaming cars and their manufactures for people speeding to me.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, December 22, 2006 11:56 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Well, the US Federal Trade Commission disagrees with your memory. According to a 2000 study they found that most video games with a mature rating are marketed to children under 17.

But the real problem is that people don’t care. The software developers and retailers just want to sell their product to the largest audience who will buy it and in many cases that means children. And many parents are just happy to plant their children down in front of a computer to keep them quiet and out of their hair. Concern for what the children are experiencing and what impact it may have on their behavioral development is often secondary.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, December 22, 2006 11:57 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Or suing a gun company when their product works and successfully kills someone.

Or making Dow and Monsanto pay out money to the vets sprayed by Agent Orange, when really they just developed an effective product and the government exercised the option to broadly use it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:16 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Well, the US Federal Trade Commission disagrees with your memory. According to a 2000 study they found that most video games with a mature rating are marketed to children under 17.

No they don't, I'm not American so how could the US Federal Trade commission disagree with my memory of events I didn't witness? How do you mean they were marketed to children under the certification age? Adverts during Childrens programs on TV, in games magazine aimed at Children, saying "Buy it if your under age"? What were they're criteria? I ask because of all the people most guilty for blaming games for their own failings Government commissions are right up there with neglective parents.
Quote:

But the real problem is that people don’t care. The software developers and retailers just want to sell their product to the largest audience who will buy it and in many cases that means children.
More adults buy games than Children. So obviously children aren't the largest Audiance.
Quote:

And many parents are just happy to plant their children down in front of a computer to keep them quiet and out of their hair.
I'm curious as to how a Parents neglect is the fault of the game?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:35 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
No they don't, I'm not American so how could the US Federal Trade commission disagree with my memory of events I didn't witness? How do you mean they were marketed to children under the certification age? Adverts during Childrens programs on TV, in games magazine aimed at Children, saying "Buy it if your under age"? What were they're criteria? I ask because of all the people most guilty for blaming games for their own failings Government commissions are right up there with neglective parents.

You’ll have to take that up with the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/reports/violence/vioreport.pdf
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
More adults buy games than Children. So obviously children aren't the largest Audiance.

Oh, well in that case, I guess there’s no children buying mature video games.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I'm curious as to how a Parents neglect is the fault of the game?

Why does it have to be the fault of the game? The parent’s neglect is sufficient.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:53 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You’ll have to take that up with the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/reports/violence/vioreport.pdf

The Link is sufficient, the sarcy reply is not.
Quote:

Oh, well in that case, I guess there’s no children buying mature video games.
You said the largest audience were children, implying certificated games are defiantly marketed to children because they were the largest audience. I pointed out that adults are in fact the largest audience, I didn't say children didn't buy games, please don't set me up as a strawman for you to tear down. If you could refrain from the childish sarcasm when you have no rhetorical response I'd really appreciate it as well.
Quote:

Why does it have to be the fault of the game? The parent’s neglect is sufficient.
I believe that's my point, you are the one implying the blame is with the games and there developers, not I.



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No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:19 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
The Link is sufficient, the sarcy reply is not.

You’ll get over it.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
You said the largest audience were children, implying certificated games are defiantly marketed to children because they were the largest audience. I pointed out that adults are in fact the largest audience, I didn't say children didn't buy games, please don't set me up as a strawman for you to tear down. If you could refrain from the childish sarcasm when you have no rhetorical response I'd really appreciate it as well.

That adults may be a large audience for many games doesn’t mean children aren’t a very large segment of the market, and in fact in some cases they may even be a larger segment of the market. Nonetheless, the developers and the retailers are largely only interested in selling their product to as many people as will buy it, and that does often mean children.

Report From The NPD Group Shows 45 Percent Of Heavy Video Gamers Are In The Six - To 17-Year-Old Age Group
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_060919a.html
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I believe that's my point, you are the one implying the blame is with the games and there developers, not I.

I think I quite clearly laid the blame on the marketing and the parents. But regardless of who is to blame, the developers made the game to be violent, the marketers advertise it to children and the retailers sell it, largely, without regard for the age of the costumer. So the blame doesn’t lie solely on the parents. In the end, the real problem, as I said earlier, is the apathy. From one side to other, no one cares, and that includes the software developers, the marketers and the retailers.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:01 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You’ll get over it.

Well since sarcastic comments are okay, at least you're capable of discussing things maturely.
Quote:

That adults may be a large audience for many games
I pointed out the adult market was larger than the child market, which was you're assertion. You respond by trying to set me up as a strawman and throwing around sarcastic comments, alarm bells are ringing.
Quote:

doesn’t mean children aren’t a very large segment of the market,
Was never my assertion, I asked you once to stop straw manning my argument, now I'm asking again. You can either acquiesce or show yourself up.
Quote:

and in fact in some cases they may even be a larger segment of the market.
Like in games aimed at children? Like say Petz for instance?
Quote:

Nonetheless, the developers and the retailers are largely only interested in selling their product to as many people as will buy it, and that does often mean children.
From your earlier link:
Unlike the movie and music recording industries, the electronic game industry does prohibit
marketing targeted to children under the age suggested in the game’s rating. Since 1995, the
IDSA Adcode has barred industry members from “specifically target(ing) advertising . . . for
entertainment software products rated Teen, Mature, or Adults Only to consumers for whom the
product is not rated as appropriate.”


So the Computer Games industry is better than either the Music or Film industry, so what makes the games industry so special to be singled out for the most derision?
Quote:

Report From The NPD Group Shows 45 Percent Of Heavy Video Gamers Are In The Six - To 17-Year-Old Age Group
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_060919a.html

It doesn't mean they're playing 'M' rated games, you're jumping around between 'M' rated and all games as if they're the same.
Quote:

I think I quite clearly laid the blame on the marketing and the parents.
Did you really, well that's all right then.
Quote:

But regardless of who is to blame, the developers made the game to be violent, the marketers advertise it to children and the retailers sell it, largely, without regard for the age of the costumer. So the blame doesn’t lie solely on the parents.
If a parent buys their child a game clear marked as rated beyond their age group and allows them to play it then responsibility is solely with the parent.
Quote:

From one side to other, no one cares, and that includes the software developers, the marketers and the retailers.
I don't think anything should be advertised to anyone without personal buying power, which would include toys and video games for children, having said that the only people resoncible for bring up your children is you. Scapegoats need not apply.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:19 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
So the Computer Games industry is better than either the Music or Film industry, so what makes the games industry so special to be singled out for the most derision?

Who said it was being singled out?




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:27 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Who said it was being singled out?

They're singled out all the time, and I rather suspect you know that. Much of this very discussion is a testamount to that. I don't see anyone questioning Films or Music here, or in any other thread ever created in the RWED or on any other board I have frequented at all and certainly with no where near the voraciousness leveled at computer games.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:07 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
They're singled out all the time, and I rather suspect you know that. Much of this very discussion is a testamount to that. I don't see anyone questioning Films or Music here, or in any other thread ever created in the RWED or on any other board I have frequented at all and certainly with no where near the voraciousness leveled at computer games.

My first post in this thread questioned violence in TV, and I’ve criticized violence on TV several times on this board. And I’ve seen films and music, particularly music, criticized for its violent content all the time in the news.

Also this is the only time I’ve seen video games criticize for violence on this board, but this thread wasn’t even intended as a criticism of video games, as much as a criticism of Christians. So I don’t know what you’re talking about.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn Mac Cuhmal:
My first post in this thread questioned violence in TV

You mentioned the word TV once, in a post that dealt with games near exclusively, furthermore how:
Quote:

I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV
Can be seen as a criticism is utterly beyond me.
Quote:

And I’ve seen films and music, particularly music, criticized for its violent content all the time in the news.
I don't recall seeing a news story about how a film or music made someone kill a bunch of people. Pretty much every time something like that happens the finger is pointed at games.
Quote:

Also this is the only time I’ve seen video games criticize for violence on this board, but this thread wasn’t even intended as a criticism of video games, as much as a criticism of Christians.
Because no thread ever goes off topic in the RWED? I said much of this thread, indicating the content not necessarily the first post. Maybe you'd like to reread what most of the content of this thread has been about since you're having trouble with this.
Quote:

So I don’t know what you’re talking about.
I said much of this thread is talking about how bad video games and their marketing is, and it is, plainly so. Why do you act like you don't know this?
Quote:

but this thread wasn’t even intended as a criticism of video games, as much as a criticism of Christians.
Like I said, since when has a thread in the RWED stayed on topic, I know you know this, so I'm at a loss to explain why you feign ignorance of this fact here.

I think the major problem here is how often Christian groups are damning violent video games, I imagine Cartoon is often nodding along to these sentiments too. However when the game includes a Christian message there's not a peep, and indeed Cartoon pops up to defend the game. That would be hypocrisy.

GTA may be more violent, I don't know I haven't played this game, however I do know that GTA does not moralise the violence within it. You could argue it desensitises to violence, but not that it makes it moral. In fact not many games do moralise killing, save the one here, which makes killing non-Christians a moral, even 'good' act as long as you do a bit of prayer to the Christian God afterwards. That's a pretty fundamental difference.

I wonder what the reaction to a game aimed at Muslims, where the player has to destroy the followers of Satan, would be like if it justified the killing of people as long as you whipped out the prayer mat afterwards?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 4:21 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV
Can be seen as a criticism is utterly beyond me.

That’s because, as usual, you intend it to be beyond you, because it’s not what you want to hear. What I actually said, without your massive deletion, was:

“As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children.”
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I don't recall seeing a news story about how a film or music made someone kill a bunch of people. Pretty much every time something like that happens the finger is pointed at games.

Okay, evidently, you’ve missed the whole ‘gangsta rap’ controversy that has been raging for the past 15 years.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Because no thread ever goes off topic in the RWED? I said much of this thread, indicating the content not necessarily the first post. Maybe you'd like to reread what most of the content of this thread has been about since you're having trouble with this. . . . I said much of this thread is talking about how bad video games and their marketing is, and it is, plainly so. Why do you act like you don't know this?

And perhaps if you reread this thread, you might discover that the only one critical of violence in video games (or TV) in this thread, so far, is me.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I think the major problem here is how often Christian groups are damning violent video games, I imagine Cartoon is often nodding along to these sentiments too. However when the game includes a Christian message there's not a peep, and indeed Cartoon pops up to defend the game. That would be hypocrisy.

Except for the Christian group mentioned in the original articles. Although, the game in question is rated Teen, not Mature. So the game has actually been rated as appropriate content for teenagers. Unlike games like Grand Theft Auto, which are rated Mature, but still sold to minors. So I’m not really sure why there’s a controversy at all, with regard to this particular game.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
GTA may be more violent, I don't know I haven't played this game, however I do know that GTA does not moralise the violence within it. You could argue it desensitises to violence, but not that it makes it moral. In fact not many games do moralise killing, save the one here, which makes killing non-Christians a moral, even 'good' act as long as you do a bit of prayer to the Christian God afterwards. That's a pretty fundamental difference.

So you prefer a game that depicts pointless displays of violence as opposed to violence with a moral or righteous purpose? I suppose you really hate games like ‘Call of Duty’ that display British Commandoes during WWII fighting Nazis. You would prefer a game in which Nazis needlessly massacred Jews?



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 4:46 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s because, as usual, you intend it to be beyond you, because it’s not what you want to hear. What I actually said, without your massive deletion, was:

You're continued and blatant attempts to try and illicit a flame are really getting quite boring.
Quote:

“As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children.”
If you think saying you like something is criticising it I'm not the one with the problem. "I like what's on TV, but it's going to far", make up your mind which one it is, do you like it or do you think it's going too far, and get back to me.
Quote:

Okay, evidently, you’ve missed the whole ‘gangsta rap’ controversy that has been raging for the past 15 years.
Evidently you didn't read what I wrote. I said I don't recall any slaughters, like say Columbine, being blamed on music. I guess you have no event since you deflected and dodged the statement rather than answering it.
Quote:

And perhaps if you reread this thread, you might discover that the only one critical of violence in video games (or TV) in this thread, so far, is me.
Well done, and I'm talking to you, and since most of this thread has been a back and forth between you and me nearly all of it has been a discussion on how bad games are I rather think my point is proved. This is very obvious, I don't need to reread anything, I already know this, it is you who is having problems grasping this inordinately simple premise, I can only assume it is deliberate.
Quote:

Except for the two Christian groups mentioned in the original articles.
I never said all Christian groups, that's your strawman again.
Quote:

Although, the game in question is rated Teen, not Mature. So the game has actually been rated as appropriate content for teenagers. Unlike games like Grand Theft Auto, which are rated Mature, but still sold to minors. So I’m not really sure why there’s a controversy at all.
Maybe because, "as usual, you intend it to be beyond you, because it’s not what you want to hear."

You and I have been talking about (among other things) video game ratings. Then you say we haven't been talking about these things and that the thread is about something completely different.

The original post was essentially "isn't it hypocritical to be anti-violent games then produce one to further your message?". The ratings weren't mentioned, but when it suits you you drop the denial and equate it to the original post.

EDIT:
Quote:

So you prefer a game that depicts pointless displays of violence as opposed to violence with a moral or righteous purpose? I suppose you really hate games like ‘Call of Duty’ that display British Commandoes during WWII fighting Nazis. You would prefer a game in which Nazis needlessly massacred Jews?
You really like strawman arguments don't you huh. Call of Duty doesn't moralise the killing in anyway, quite the opposite, it's chock full of how it was a bloody, albiet necessarry, waste of life. The difference is Call Of Duty and GTA don't say "killing is good", which is a message this game does attempt to foster.

People play violent games, I do and from your posts on other threads I believe you do too. I'd prefer a game played by people who realise that's all it is, and one that doesn't attempt to instill that violence is a good moral act. Your protestations would seem to indicate you feel otherwise, you'd prefer games to instil and idea that killing is a good thing?

Perhaps you like games that make killing a good and moral act, but only if it's Christians killing non-Christians?



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Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:29 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
If you think saying you like something is criticising it I'm not the one with the problem. I like what's on TV, but it's going to far, make up your mind which one it is, do you like it or do you think it's going to far, and get back to me.

So according to you, in order to disagree with mature content being viewed by minors I have to disagree with it being viewed by adults? Essentially, what you seem to be saying is that in order for an adult to be involved in adult activities, such as a sexual relationship with another consenting adult, for example, they must condone the same activity among children? I don’t think so. I can approve of the mature content myself, without actually approving of it for children who may be too inexperience, immature or naïve to understand the content.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Evidently you didn't read what I wrote. I said I don't recall any slaughters, like say Columbine, being blamed on music. I guess you have no event since you deflected and dodged the statement rather than answering it.

Once again, you’ve evidently missed the whole ‘gangsta rap’ controversy, which involved the argument that so-called ‘gangsta rap’ is fueling inner city violence, I guarantee you, on a much larger scale then anything you would find at Columbine.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Well done, and I'm talking to you, and since most of this thread has been a back and forth between you and me nearly all of it has been a discussion on how bad games are I rather think my point is proved. This is very obvious, I don't need to reread anything, I already know this, it is you who is having problems grasping this inordinately simple premise, I can only assume it is deliberate.

If your point was to argue that only one person has actually criticizing violence in video games, then I suppose it does.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
The original post was essentially "isn't it hypocritical to be anti-violent games then produce one to further your message?". The ratings weren't mentioned, but when it suits you you drop the denial and equate it to the original post.

That depends on what is meant by “anti-violent games.” I’m betting that most people would consider degrees of violence that you are ignoring.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
You really like strawman arguments don't you huh. Call of Duty doesn't moralise the killing in anyway, quite the opposite, it's chock full of how it was a bloody, albiet necessarry, waste of life. The difference is Call Of Duty and GTA don't say "killing is good", which is a message this game does attempt to foster.

Most certainly it does moralize the killing. That’s the reason why there hasn't been (to my knowledge) a game like that in which the Nazis are the good guys. Wanton and needless violence, like that depicted in GTA, is generally considered to be much, much worse then violence with a moral purpose, and the violence in defense of Britain during WWII is generally viewed as violence with a moral purpose.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
People play violent games, I do and from your posts on other threads I believe you do too. I'd prefer a game played by people who realise that's all it is, and one that doesn't attempt to instill that violence is a good moral act. Your protestations would seem to indicate you feel otherwise, you'd prefer games to instil and idea that killing is a good thing?

Perhaps you like games that make killing a good and moral act, but only if it's Christians killing non-Christians?

I play many violent video games. I’ve even played Grand Theft Auto.

But I don’t view killing as being good, and that is why I draw a distinction between killing for a good purpose and killing for no purpose (or a bad purpose). Grand Theft Auto, which depicts the act of killing for no purpose, actually glorifies the act of killing itself.

If killing does have “a good and moral” purpose then I’m much more accepting of it then I would be if it were wanton and needless. I suspect though that the problem in this game is not whether it is violent, since you’ve already stated that you prefer games in which violence is depicted for violence sake, as opposed to games that depicted violence to attain a moral purpose. Rather, you’re problem, I suspect, is that this game is, or is perceived to have, a pro-Christian theme, and that’s what you can’t accept.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:04 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
much worse then violence with a moral purpose, and the violence in defense of Britain during WWII is generally viewed as violence with a moral purpose.

There is a fundemental difference between killing for a moral purpose and saying killing is morally right. CoD is the former, the game in question is the latter.

Perhaps you think killing non-Christians does make murder okay, I hope not because to my mind that would put in the same league, belief wise as Osama bin Laden. To clarify I don't think you do hold that position, I just think you don't care to realise what I am saying or what my problems with the above truely are.
Quote:

If killing does have “a good and moral” purpose then I’m much more accepting of it then I would be if it were wanton and needless. I suspect though that the problem in this game is not whether it is violent, since you’ve already stated that you prefer games in which violence is depicted for violence sake, as opposed to games that depicted violence to attain a moral purpose. Rather, you’re problem, I suspect, is that this game is, or is perceived to have, a pro-Christian theme, and that’s what you can’t accept.
No, and if you actually listened to what I said rather than trying to mischaracterise me you'd know that.

I don't see the difference between saying killing non-christians is morally right to saying killing non-Muslims is morally right. Maybe you can explain it too me?



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Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:00 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
There is a fundemental difference between killing for a moral purpose and saying killing is morally right. CoD is the former, the game in question is the latter.

According to you, who has never played the game or knows very much even about it. I’ve not played the game either, so I can’t speculate about whether I think the violence is moral or not.

I find it somewhat interesting that you have no problem with depictions of pointless violence, but violence with a Christian morality bothers you. I think that says more about what you think about Christians then about what you think about violence. And more then anything else, I think that is the controversy over this game. I don’t really think it is too much to ask that our society at least worry as much about children being subjected to depictions of pointless violence as depictions of violence with a Christian morality.

Another distinction that comes to mind is that Grand Theft Auto depicts images of violence that resemble the kinds of violence that might occur on an actual American city street. By contrast this Left Behind game depicts images of a post-apocalyptic fantasy world, and in that regard appears much more like fantasy games like Doom, in which the violence is subjected against essentially non-human creatures.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:09 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
According to you, who has never played the game or knows very much even about it. I’ve not played the game either, so I can’t speculate about whether I think the violence is moral or not.

The idea is to kill non-Christians then a quick prayer makes everything okay. the fact you think that's a good thing speaks volumes.
Quote:

I find it somewhat interesting that you have no problem with depictions of pointless violence, but violence with a Christian morality bothers you. I think that says more about what you think about Christians then about what you think about violence. And more then anything else, I think that is the controversy over this game. I don’t really think it is too much to ask that our society at least worry as much about children being subjected to depictions of pointless violence as depictions of violence with a Christian morality.
I think its somewhat interesting that you find violence morally good as long as its Christians against non-Christians.

Obviously you have no interest in hearing any side but your own, since even when I set you straight you continue the same tired BS. I have no desire to continue this charade with someone who clearly only posts here because they like to see their own words, and only their own, in print.

Take your strawman elsewhere, you bore me.



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Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:55 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


I oughtta stay outta this one, but I can't.

WWJD?

Would the guy called the Prince of Peace approve? Would the guy who said , turn the other cheek, suggest shooting folks?
Would the guy who talked about forgiving your enemies seventy times seven times, and rebuked one of his own followers for resisting and cutting off a servant's ear when he himself was arrested, think this was a good idea?

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:26 PM

HKCAVALIER


Holy crizzapple! This is soooo messed up. Some choice quotes from the links provided by the OP:
Quote:

Left Behind Games' president, Jeffrey Frichner, says the game actually is pacifist because players lose "spirit points" every time they gun down nonbelievers rather than convert them.
Actually "pacifist" is a typo, he meant to say "pacivish," or kinda like pacifism if you squint and forget that you're gunning people down.
Quote:

"You are fighting a defensive battle in the game," Frichner, whose previous company produced Bible software, said of combatting the Antichrist. "You are a sort of a freedom fighter."
One man's freedom fighter is another man's...uh, pacifist?
Quote:

The enemy team includes fictional rock stars and folks with Muslim-sounding names, while the righteous include gospel singers, missionaries, healers and medics.
Hey! They're only "Muslim-sounding" to you! To me they're just fantasy "foreign" names. You know, like in Conan or something.
Quote:

When asked about the Arab and Muslim-sounding names, Frichner said the game does not endorse prejudice. But "Muslims are not believers in Jesus Christ" -- and thus can't be on Christ's side in the game.

"That is so obvious," he said.

Uh, hrm, well...they still sound foreign.
Quote:

Jeff Gerstmann, senior editor at Gamespot.com, an online publication, said the game sn't popular. The game itself, which Gamespot rated 3.4 out of a possible 10, has lots of glitches.

"And it's kind of crazy," Gerstmann said. "One of the evil characters is a rock musician. ... If you get too close to him your spirit is lowered."

Go Gamespot!
Quote:

But Plugged In, a publication of the conservative Christian group Focus on the Family, gave the game a "thumbs-up." The reviewer called it "the kind of game that Mom and Dad can actually play with Junior -- and use to raise some interesting questions along the way."
"Daddy, why don't we just kill them all and let God sort them out?"
Quote:

“Our game includes violence, but excludes blood, decapitation, killing of police officers,” the company says on its Web site, noting that a player can lose points for “unnecessary killing” and regain them through prayer.
Obviously, necessary killing causes no spirit penalty.
Quote:

“Part of the object is to kill or convert the opposing forces,” said the Rev. Tim Simpson of Jacksonville, Fla., who heads the Christian Alliance for Progress. “It is antithetical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
Aw, what does he know?
Quote:

“The idea that you could pray, and the deleterious effects of one’s foul deeds would simply be wiped away, is a horrible thing to be teaching Christian young people here at Christmas time,” Simpson said.
BO-ring! Gawd, he makes Christianity sound so woosy, y'know? I think that if Christ played video games He would kick ass!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:38 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm wondering when we're going to have a game where you play Big Brother and you go around killing anyone who refuses mandatory vaccines.

The sub games will have you playing the role of his evil scientists destroying "gay" genes in babies.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, December 24, 2006 5:04 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

“The idea that you could pray, and the deleterious effects of one’s foul deeds would simply be wiped away, is a horrible thing to be teaching Christian young people here at Christmas time,” Simpson said.
BO-ring! Gawd, he makes Christianity sound so woosy, y'know? I think that if Christ played video games He would kick ass!

But this is good, violence for a moral purpose, it's a very very good thing, making violence a good moral act, ask Finn, he'll tell you all about it.



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Sunday, December 24, 2006 10:01 PM

ANTIMASON


if i could just add a few things guys..

this game sounds like agenda driven propoganda, and the so-called "tribulation force" and theology underlying the Left Behind series is an engineered dillusion; ill skip the obvious angle about the contradiction to the 6th commandment which is "thou shalt not murder"..

there will be no rapture.. the concept is biblically unfounded, and historically will prove only to have conditioned todays apostate(wordly/estranged) church into supporting the establishment of this new order of the ages, luciferian global government.


Jesus makes the point very clear, that people will say 'here is the christ! or the christ has come' but do not believe them, for his coming will be seen the world over, since he will redeem the planet from this cycle of death and decay in its fallen state, thereby transforming us aswell.

the way i see it, there is only one way you can interpret end times prophecy, and something as significant as the rapture/7yrs theory deserves to be called what it is in light of the evidence: an occultic perversion masquarading as truth. the game in this case only appeals to those who are already deceived and are being drawn further from the word of God






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Monday, December 25, 2006 5:17 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


That’s a religious argument that some people may not share, but regardless of the religious arguments in favor of or against Dispensationalist Christian Theology, the Left Behind books are works of fiction. Right now, I can’t really see how this particular games varies significantly from a game like Doom in regards to violence. However, because it uses references to an existing religion, I could see how some adherents of that religion might feel some personal association, which may lead them to feel negatively about the game. I personally, don’t have a problem with it, because I view it as fiction, but many of my friends object vigorously (even some Dispensationalist) to the books, and probably also to the game.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, December 25, 2006 5:45 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I think its somewhat interesting that you find violence morally good as long as its Christians against non-Christians.

No, I just don’t assume that something is necessarily bad because it’s Christian. But as I’ve said numerous times, someone who prefers the violence in GTA because it is indiscriminate, can’t really claim that violence is their main problem with regard to this Left-Behind game.
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Obviously you have no interest in hearing any side but your own, since even when I set you straight you continue the same tired BS. I have no desire to continue this charade with someone who clearly only posts here because they like to see their own words, and only their own, in print.

Take your strawman elsewhere, you bore me.

Mmbah-Bye.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:01 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Obviously you have no interest in hearing any side but your own, since even when I set you straight you continue the same tired BS.


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
No, I just don’t assume that something is necessarily bad because it’s Christian. But as I’ve said numerous times, someone who prefers the violence in GTA because it is indiscriminate, can’t really claim that violence is their main problem with regard to this Left-Behind game.

Thank you for proving my point so eloquently. You really haven't listened to a word I've said, preferring to make up an argument you can tear down, obviously you lack the will or intelligence to actually listen to any one other than yourself.



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Thursday, December 28, 2006 5:36 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Did anyone else catch Cartoons little bit. It's okay to kill them because they're under the influence of the Anti-Christ, that's why they're non-believers. Not real violence because they're not real people (like all non-christians eh cart), so okay to kill, kinda puts Cartoons real thoughts better than I could.



Now wait just a second. This whole thread stinks to high heaven for obvious reasons (no matter where you land on the issue, there's plenty to get mad over). But I read Cartoon's post quite carefully, and I don't see him suggesting anything like what you're accusing him of. Now, I'll make no excuses for this ridiculous game--I'm a Christian, and it baffles me as to why so many of us get wrapped up in "end times" speculation instead of emulating Jesus' example in the here-and-now. But come on: Cartoon wasn't suggesting that it's OK to kill non-Christians--he trying to defend the thing from exactly that accusation! If you're going to accuse Cartoon of such a thing, I'd like to see exactly what in his post justified that conclusion.

Also, once again: please don't lump all followers of Jesus in with this lot. Remember FremDFirma saying he'd love to burn us all at the stake for our intolerance? Now that's hypocrisy. Are there nutjob Christians? You betcha. Just like there are nutjob Muslims and Republicans and Democrats and Hindus, and Tamils and Mormons and atheists and scientists...nobody's got the corner on the nutjob market. There's plenty of that action to go around.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets



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Friday, December 29, 2006 4:45 AM

CITIZEN


Cartoon is a violent Christian fanatic. He's said before on these boards he sees no problem with treating non-christians as less than human.

You want to defend an evil little bastard like Cartoon that's your own buisness.



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Friday, December 29, 2006 5:01 AM

CAUSAL


Whoa! Easy!

I'm not defending Cartoon as such--I don't have enough exposure to the guy to know what he stands for. He hasn't really made it onto my radar scope to enable me to understand where he's coming from and evaluate his ideas (unlike a number of individuals, including yourself). So please understand, I'm not defending Cartoon as a whole. What I am doing, however, is calling foul on responding to his argument with a blatant ad hominem attack. It may in fact be the case that he's a "violent Christian fanatic" and an "evil little bastard." But although we may be justified in ignoring him in virtue of that, it is not the case that we can dismiss his arguments as false in virtue of that. I dislike fanaticism in whatever form (and I think that I've stressed that on any number of occasions), but in this case I have to call "foul." With respect to the ridiculous videogame this thread is about, I think that if we are going to be fair, we'll have to admit that the objective of the game is not to slaughter non-Christians. But immediately after that we also have to be realistic and say that the admixture of evangelism with gunplay is just plain foolish. We can be reactionary and say "Conversion by the sword!" even though this is not the game-maker's intent. We could also be reactionary and say, "It's all in good fun!" even though this is clearly not very well thought-out. I just want to insure that nobody says, "I'm a persecuted minority" or "Christians are all blood-thirsty zealots." Because once we take the dialogue there, we've descended into the same sort of zealotry that we accuse the other side of (and after all, this thread is supposed to be about hypocrisy).

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets



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Friday, December 29, 2006 7:15 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


I’ve read many of Cartoon’s posts and I’ve never come away with the impression that he was a “violent Christian fanatic” or an “evil little bastard.” Quit frankly, agree with him or not, he is generally a much nicer poster then Citizen. In fact, I think that kind of language being directed, unprovoked, at an individual on this board is way out of line and speaks more of Citizen’s own fanaticism and intolerance towards opinions he doesn’t agree with, then Cartoon’s perspective.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, December 29, 2006 7:43 AM

CITIZEN


Of course you would Finn, because anyone you disagree with, you try to paint as a Nazi, like you did in the abortion thread (anyone who disagrees with you is a baby killing Nazi) the Israel thread (anyone who disagrees with you was a Jew hating Nazi) and here (anyone who disagrees with you does it only because they hate Christians). Your motivations are very clear, Cartoon is a right wing Christian fundamentalist which to you automatically makes him okay. Like Mel Gibson going on an anti-Semitic rant, it must be okay because Mel Gibson's a right-wing Christian, so it must be left wing media bias.

Continue to call me a fanatic if you want, maybe you could call me a Nazi again? I don't attack anyone who hasn't attacked me first (and believe me Cartoon attacked me first, not that you care about the reality), but for you personal attacks are the first thing you indulge in. Whatever I may be I'm no where near as bad as you have become.

Funny, you having anything to say on anyone elses behaviour or "intolerance for other opinions" really is the definition of hypocracy, bravo.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, December 29, 2006 10:02 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


6-string,

"I'm wondering when we're going to have a game where you play Big Brother and you go around killing anyone who refuses mandatory vaccines."

This is so unworthy of you. I can understand when people reply in kind, but initiating this kind of thing is not your usual straightforward style.

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