REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

End Christmas as a Holiday?

POSTED BY: NEWOLDBROWNCOAT
UPDATED: Monday, December 27, 2021 13:49
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Friday, December 1, 2006 8:24 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT





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Friday, December 1, 2006 8:25 AM

KELKHIL


Excuse me?

Kelkhil

The Shirtless Forsaken

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Friday, December 1, 2006 8:27 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Why? It coincides with a whole bunch of different religious holidays, it's recognised all over the world - even in places where it's not celebrated - and it's fun! Why ban it?




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Friday, December 1, 2006 8:31 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Well, ok, maybe it posted a blank message on me. here goes.
saw this on The Christian Science Monitor editorial page, linked thru Google opinions;
Quote:



Last , and most important to me personally, is that ending Christmas as a legal holiday would force those of us who are Christians to identify ourselves as such. All Christians - practicing or nominal - would be faced with the decision to take Dec. 24 and 25 as personal days. How many would honor their faith and respect their traditions by doing so?



Well, it is Favortism. Why now make the most holy day of Judaism, or Islam, or Buddhism, or you get the idea, a legal holiday, too?

But, make it real. If Christians had to ctually sacrifice to celebrate the Day, would they? Didn't JC say it wasn't gonna be easy to follow?

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Friday, December 1, 2006 8:51 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Well, can't really comment on that because I'm not Christian. I was raised Catholic though, like just about everyone else here. I don't know how it is Stateside, but in Ireland people who would never walk inside a church except for weddings or funerals show up to Mass every Christmas without exception. It gets so crowded that one church in Dublin is threatening to make the Christmas Eve vigil mass a ticket only event!

I think most people would take the days. But they wouldn't do it for religious reasons, they'd do it because they'd always done it. They'd do it because Christmas has become far more all-embracing than a Christian feast day. They'd do it because every year the whole family sits down and has dinner together and the kids get presents and that's simply how it's done. And they'd add the fact that they have to take it as a personal day to the list of Christmas-related gripes.

Since people of other religions would have to take their own religious holidays it would also mean that everything would break apart pretty quickly. It would be a shame if a universal holiday like Christmas became broken up along religious lines.




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Friday, December 1, 2006 9:15 AM

CAUSAL


Speaking as a Christian, I would say, no, I probably would not. And here's why: Christianity (Biblical Christianity, that is) doesn't have special days. Yes, that's right: no special days. You will not find a New Testament reference to celebrating Christmas, or Easter, or Good Friday, or any other special day. That's because Christianity as biblically expressed isn't a ritual-heavy religion. The only real rituals prescribed are baptism and communion.

Reason 2: Christmas isn't about Jesus--it's about putting down pagan religious practices (historically speaking) and about consumerism (speaking contemporarily). Most scholars (conservative and otherwise) agree that Jesus was not born on December 25th. But guess who was? Sol Invictus, the Roman God of the Undefeated Sun, whose birth was celebrated every December the 25th in a celebration called Saturnalia, during which Romans gave gifts to one another and decorated their temples with greenery. So if you've recently been named the official state religion of the Roman Empire (380 CE), and you want to stamp out the pagan religions, do you persecute them? Of course not! That will only encourage them. Instead, you co-opt their holidays and make them your own.

So, I guess, no, I would not take days off work. Because biblical Christian doesn't command me to. It's a made up holiday meant to help the Roman state consolidate power between the failing Empire and a corrupted church. And it's continued into this century and our culture as an excuse for an orgy of consumerism. I aim to follow in the example of Jesus, and that's got nothing to do with ritualizing days and feasts. It has to do with loving those who are unlovely and reaching out to the poor, the oppressed and the lost.

/Rant

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets



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Friday, December 1, 2006 10:09 AM

CAUSAL


No takers?

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets



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Friday, December 1, 2006 10:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hey, I'm for ANY reason to take off work and be nice to people! So keep the days off, just call it something else.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, December 1, 2006 10:14 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Yeah. My local shopping centre calls it's Christmas lights "Winter lights" so they don't get given out to for lighting them in November




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Friday, December 1, 2006 11:29 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Speaking as a Christian, I would say, no, I probably would not. And here's why: Christianity (Biblical Christianity, that is) doesn't have special days. Yes, that's right: no special days. You will not find a New Testament reference to celebrating Christmas, or Easter, or Good Friday, or any other special day. That's because Christianity as biblically expressed isn't a ritual-heavy religion. The only real rituals prescribed are baptism and communion.

Reason 2: Christmas isn't about Jesus--it's about putting down pagan religious practices (historically speaking) and about consumerism (speaking contemporarily). Most scholars (conservative and otherwise) agree that Jesus was not born on December 25th. But guess who was? Sol Invictus, the Roman God of the Undefeated Sun, whose birth was celebrated every December the 25th in a celebration called Saturnalia, during which Romans gave gifts to one another and decorated their temples with greenery. So if you've recently been named the official state religion of the Roman Empire (380 CE), and you want to stamp out the pagan religions, do you persecute them? Of course not! That will only encourage them. Instead, you co-opt their holidays and make them your own.

So, I guess, no, I would not take days off work. Because biblical Christian doesn't command me to. It's a made up holiday meant to help the Roman state consolidate power between the failing Empire and a corrupted church. And it's continued into this century and our culture as an excuse for an orgy of consumerism. I aim to follow in the example of Jesus, and that's got nothing to do with ritualizing days and feasts. It has to do with loving those who are unlovely and reaching out to the poor, the oppressed and the lost.

Hammer meet nail head.

Frankly I'll do what I do right now, say I'll work, not take any time off and not go in anyway. My job is in support of civil servants, and those bastards don't turn up for work when they're supposed too, frankly I can sit at home and do nothing just as effectively as I can in London. And since the guys who wear the stripes always get leave or work elsewhere anyway they don't know.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, December 1, 2006 11:32 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Hammer meet nail head.





Must remember that phrase. That one's fun!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets



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Friday, December 1, 2006 12:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Would be fine by me, except I like getting presents. The whole 'birth of Jesus' story, as everyone should know, didn't even occur in December anyway. Most theologians will freely confess that the baby jesus story was forced upon the pagans of Europe by the Catholic Church in order to unify them. Instead of celebrating the return of the SUN, we were now taught to celebrate the Son.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 1, 2006 4:36 PM

TRAVELER


So I guess your answer is up to the individual. I am not a Christian, but I will send out cards to my friends and I will have a paid holiday from work. I suspect I am not alone in this. If they took the holiday away, I guess I would go into work. You can celebrate on the weekend. Easter is on Sunday. So make Christmas on Sunday. As has been said the 25th is an arbituary date. Since I am not in the civil service it is up to my company to grant us the time off. They don't have to give us the holiday by any law I know. Our owner wants the time off and so we get it as well. I like all the food we get from our suppliers. We really have a feast, at work, from the cookies and fruit they send us.


Traveler

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Friday, December 1, 2006 6:20 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


I think the answer is to just celebrate Festivus, like my history teacher says.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote - Vote Firefly!

(by Kelai)

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Friday, December 1, 2006 6:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Heck no, Christmas is a holiday that has a little something for everyone, and by it's calender placement, can be shared by just about any belief system, from christianity to atheism and paganism, even straight avarice and consumerism, to pacifism, there's something there to appease ANY belief or philosophy.

Regardless of what one CALLS it, the holiday should remain.

It's not just a celebration of religious and moral bent, it's also a celebration of humanity and hope, something we need these days more than ever.

Peace on Earth and Goodwill to Man, indeed.

-Frem

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Friday, December 1, 2006 6:44 PM

TRAVELER


Thank you Yinyang. I forgot to set up my aluminum pole. Can not have a proper Festivus without the pole.


Traveler

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Saturday, December 2, 2006 9:37 AM

SIRI


Another interesting topic. What an amazing and thoughtful bunch of people inhabit this 'verse.

Not a Christian - do like the idea of a shared holiday and day off work to be with family and consider the essence of the season - whether it's the birth of the Christ-child or return of the sun after the longest night. Don't like the idea of preferrential treatment though. I enjoy mystery - even tho I tend to be somewhat of a cynic (I hate that term but it does apply to some extent).

I don't know if a generic holiday would be the same - altho it would be fairer. Christians having to choose to take a day off work would probably be more of a sacrifice for the less financially well-off - as usual. Many of them work holidays now - doing what needs to be done. So I'm for keeping the holiday - call it whatever you like.


"I carried such a torch!"

Siri

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Saturday, December 2, 2006 11:50 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


When I was eight my brother and I used to throw fits about who got the most Kool-Aid in their cup. We were so afraid that the one would get slightly bit more then the other, that my mother would get furious with us. I think back to those days and laugh, because I was eight. I don’t know what to think about the pathetic souls who actually want to get rid of Christmas because they are afraid that Christians might end up with a bit more in their cup then they do. It’s sad when you think about it.

Christmas is an ancient holiday celebrating the Winter Solstice or perhaps just celebrating the winter in general. This was particularly true in Northern Europe. Among Germans it was called Yule. The Romans had several celebrations during winter, one worshiped the God Saturn. Later during the Imperial period, December 25 was the day that was chosen to celebrate the birth of the victorious Sun God, Sol Invictus. By the Time Christianity was in place in Europe, December 25 was already being worshiped, not only as the pre-historical Winter festival, but also as the birth of the Sol Invictus. Christians, like everyone before them, adopted the Winter Festival for their own use, and December 25 became the birth of Christ . . . to Christians. In reality, Christmas is no more a Christian holiday then Halloween. Christ wasn’t really born on December 25. Throughout history there have been, and continue to be, so many different concepts applied to the Winter Festival, from the Germanic nature worship to Roman Sun worship to Christianity, and lots lots more. In the end, however, the only consistent feature is the celebration of winter.

A testament to the tenacity of religious practice, it has survived, so why should we get rid of it now? Because someone thinks that because Christians apply their own meaning to it that they’ve soiled it? Now there’s a pathetic person. Stop bitching about what other people get, take a day off work with the rest of us and enjoy the celebration of winter. If you don’t want to celebrate it as the birth of Christ, god knows there is plenty of non-Christian folklore passed down for centuries and probably even millennia to make Christmas a rich and involving experience for anyone. And if none of that strikes your fancy then do what people have been doing for thousands of years, make up something you do want to celebrate. Or just don’t apply any meaning to it, and take the day off work and sit at home and read a certain Charles Dickens story. You’ll have all the rest of the year to be a self-involved jerk constantly distressing over what everyone else gets, just enjoy this one day!





Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 2, 2006 8:31 PM

JONNYQUEST

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"


Don't know how it is beyond the US borders, ill-kept thought they may be, but if you cancel Christmas the US economy would collapse.

How many of us Christians would Carpe Diem anyway? My guess is the same number as do now. As was stated the folks from the lower end of the economic food chain often are forced to work holidays now and the rest would welcome a day off no matter what the reason.

Regardless of the religious connection intrinsic to the holiday as we know it now, it is full of cultural traditions that make it the richest of all the holidays. Not everyone celebrates all the different traditions and that's fine. I hate the commercialism, I hate that grown people fight over stuffed toys and "steal" out of other people's shopping carts. That's not the holiday's fault. It's message is universal. Peace. We just muck it up like most everything else we touch.

I know Hindu's who just love it. And not long ago, Neil Diamond, Barbra Streisand and Barry Manilow all made Christmas albums (Neil ended up making two I believe) and White Christmas, the one of the best selling and most often covered songs of all time, was written by Irving Berlin and there are countless other examples. There's magic there. And coming at the end of the year as it does gives us an entire week of holiday cheer as New Year's follows right on its heels.

It's okay to say Merry Christmas to a non-Christian. Why not? I wouldn't be offended by anyone wishing me a Happy Ramadan. Don't know the proper wish for Ramadan...I used to be uptight about that; didn't want to offend anyone. Then I realized it was bigger than that. And me? I can still celebrate the birth of the Christ Child, once a year and every day.


"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Sunday, December 3, 2006 12:37 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


HummmmBugggg!!!

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Tuesday, December 5, 2006 6:45 PM

DREAMTROVE


I think the universal holidays should probably be abolished. When nothing is open, society stops, and that could, and has been, disasterous, in the right circumstances. It's much more sensible that only those people of a particular belief take a day off. If all the jews take passover off, and then the christians take easter off, then there is still someone at the company to run things on either occassion. So, business goes on. But if everyone goes home on the same day, everything stops.

Everyone will have a Xmas-style holiday, whether it's Chanukah or Solstice or Epiphany or Great Satan Demon Thingie Day

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Tuesday, December 5, 2006 6:53 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Must be nice to be a Jehovah's Witness... don't have to worry about this kind of stuff... or hell, I guess.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote - Vote Firefly!

(by Kelai)

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Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:22 PM

PIRATECAT


This is what is wrong with community colleges. Without Xmas beautiful tradition of singing Baby Jesus songs in Irish pubs would stop, beer taps would dry up. Then turkey farms, candel factories, and Jewish toy stores would close. What about all the trailor trash girls at the titty bar, their 4 kids each would go hungry. Dolly Parton new cds would be scrapped. Walmart would have to lay off the retards that greet ya at the doe. I really hate this new generation. Also this is when Rome cleans up with Xmas cards.

I like Santa

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 12:52 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You can't get rid of X-mas! That's when stores do 50% of their business. What would the economy be without that massive shopping glut? How would businesses survive without the tradition of reckless, ruinous consumer spending? The idea's so business-hostile it's un-American, and frankly almost seditious.


Q How is working like X-mas?
.
.
.
.
.
.
A You do all the work and some fat guy in a suit gets all the credit.


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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 5:13 AM

AMITON


The commercial impact that Rue pointed out is exactly why Christmas will not be cancelled anytime soon. It's about the money, and without that money, very bad things would happen to retailers and would then ripple out to the rest of the economy.

That being said, all of this talk about the historical symbolism that's associated with December 25th outside of Christianity is nonsense. The holiday being observed is the birth of Christ, whether it happened on that day or not. If there was an actual attempt to nationally or internationally designate *that day* as a generic, non-christian observance would result in a massive backlash, in my estimation. We don't observe Yule (though the term has been bastardized into the Christmas holiday) and we don't celebrate Sol Invectus, despite the reality of the origins of the holiday.

December 25th is a Christian religious observance, and even though I do consider myself a Christian, I don't think that it's right that Christmas is singled out over other holidays in the season, whether it is Channukah, Ramadan, or Kwanza (although the idea of Kwanza infuriates me). It is an indicator of segregation and/or preferential treatement even if it is out of habit. Granted, all of the other religious seasonal holidays are multiple days and, from a corporate perspective would be less attractive to give as mass holidays. I don't feel in my heart that the religious observation of one should be recognized in lieu of the others. If it were that straightforward, then I would prefer to not have Christmas as a national/federal/international holiday.

As I said earlier, though, that's not going to happen. The only rational alternative that I could offer would be a separate holiday that's independent of everyone else's, and specifically signified to be for everyone.

Amiton.

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 9:05 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
That being said, all of this talk about the historical symbolism that's associated with December 25th outside of Christianity is nonsense. The holiday being observed is the birth of Christ, whether it happened on that day or not. If there was an actual attempt to nationally or internationally designate *that day* as a generic, non-christian observance would result in a massive backlash, in my estimation. We don't observe Yule (though the term has been bastardized into the Christmas holiday) and we don't celebrate Sol Invectus, despite the reality of the origins of the holiday.

Except most of the traditional Christmas rituals are actually traditional pagan rituals and nothing to do with Christianity, so are we really celebrating yule and others as much as Christ?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 9:36 AM

AMITON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
That being said, all of this talk about the historical symbolism that's associated with December 25th outside of Christianity is nonsense. The holiday being observed is the birth of Christ, whether it happened on that day or not. If there was an actual attempt to nationally or internationally designate *that day* as a generic, non-christian observance would result in a massive backlash, in my estimation. We don't observe Yule (though the term has been bastardized into the Christmas holiday) and we don't celebrate Sol Invectus, despite the reality of the origins of the holiday.

Except most of the traditional Christmas rituals are actually traditional pagan rituals and nothing to do with Christianity, so are we really celebrating yule and others as much as Christ?



I'm not arguing at all that most of the concept for Christmas was an appeasement gesture by the (recently proclaimed official Roman) Catholic Church and Emperor Constantine. I get it.

If you could find ten percent of the population that was aware of that history, then I would be highly impressed. I think I'd still be impressed if you could find that ten percent in western culture five hundred years ago.

The observance of the holiday in modern culture is an observance of a Christian Holiday. I don't see a way around that. It was the intention of the celebrants and the government. There are people that write the holiday as xmas, not as shorthand, but out of disdain for the use of the title Christ. Wait, that's right...we *refer* to the holiday as Christmas.

The observance is of a Christian event. Even if you ask most of the non-believers, the day is in observance of the birth of Christ in spite of their beliefs. I would argue that those who observe the holiday as something else are doing so in an effort to not partake in a religious, or at least Christian, tradition, not because it's been that way from the beginning.

Amiton.

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 6:00 PM

JONNYQUEST

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"


Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
If you could find ten percent of the population that was aware of that history, then I would be highly impressed. I think I'd still be impressed if you could find that ten percent in western culture five hundred years ago.


"And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
Quote:


The observance of the holiday in modern culture is an observance of a Christian Holiday. I don't see a way around that. It was the intention of the celebrants and the government. There are people that write the holiday as xmas, not as shorthand, but out of disdain for the use of the title Christ. Wait, that's right...we *refer* to the holiday as Christmas.

The observance is of a Christian event. Even if you ask most of the non-believers, the day is in observance of the birth of Christ in spite of their beliefs. I would argue that those who observe the holiday as something else are doing so in an effort to not partake in a religious, or at least Christian, tradition, not because it's been that way from the beginning.

Amiton.


Most of the Christiness was taken out of Christmas long ago with the--dare I say it?--advent of the Saint Nicolas legend, which itself has morphed into a grotesque parody of itself. I'm sitting in the car this morning and again this evening listening to a radio station that has played nothing but Christmas music since before Thanksgiving, and heard one actual Christmas Carol. Hark, the Herald Angels Sing sung by Nat "King" Cole.

You can't on the one hand bemoan it's commercialization and turn around say it's still "Christian".


"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 6:32 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
If you could find ten percent of the population that was aware of that history, then I would be highly impressed. I think I'd still be impressed if you could find that ten percent in western culture five hundred years ago.

So it’s not really that you have any reason to believe that Christmas is necessarily and solely a Christian holiday as you insist it is; it’s just that you think people are too stupid to know any different? I'm not really sure most people are that dumb, but even if they were, it doesn't change anything. Just because Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25, doesn't make Santa Claus, elves, evergreens and mistletoe Christian theology.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 7:06 PM

PIRATECAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
The commercial impact

Blaablabla blaa blabla blaaaa Blaablabla blaaa
HAPPY KWANZA

I like Santa

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 5:18 AM

AMITON


Quote:

Originally posted by JonnyQuest:
Most of the Christiness was taken out of Christmas long ago with the--dare I say it?--advent of the Saint Nicolas legend, which itself has morphed into a grotesque parody of itself. I'm sitting in the car this morning and again this evening listening to a radio station that has played nothing but Christmas music since before Thanksgiving, and heard one actual Christmas Carol. Hark, the Herald Angels Sing sung by Nat "King" Cole.

You can't on the one hand bemoan it's commercialization and turn around say it's still "Christian".



JQ,
I'll use your statement because it pretty much sums up what both you and Finn are saying.

I'm not contesting that the application of the holiday hasn't been bastardized. It's been bent, and twisted, and mangled. In spite of all of the non-related traditions that have now been attributed to Christmas, it doesn't change the holiday. There are four December holiday observances, right? (Christmas, Channukah, Ramadan, and Kwnazaa). Why is Christmas special? I don't know.

I do know that when little kids ask their parents what Christmas is for, and what all the presents are about, they get the Jesus story, even in most non-religious families. That story even probably gets to be a little embellished when the kid starts asking uncomfortable questions like where does Santa come in, and what about the North Pole.

Maybe I live in a fantasy world, but I've never been able to really find any other instance in any of the cities that I've lived in or visited during the holidays. And I don't think it should be that way. I don't think non-Christian families should be put into that situation. I would be *perfectly* happy not having Christmas as a federal holiday (which is more reasonable than having time-off style observance of all of the major groups' holidays), and perhaps having a neutral, generic "Holiday" observance that can have all of the commercialism and trappings that we associate with it now. There's no reason to single Christmas out above all of the other holidays.

Amiton.

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Saturday, December 9, 2006 8:16 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
I'm not contesting that the application of the holiday hasn't been bastardized. It's been bent, and twisted, and mangled. In spite of all of the non-related traditions that have now been attributed to Christmas, it doesn't change the holiday. There are four December holiday observances, right? (Christmas, Channukah, Ramadan, and Kwnazaa). Why is Christmas special? I don't know.

Well, it is actually quite simple. Most people in the US do not celebrate Chanukah, Ramadan or Kwanza. Most people do celebrate Christmas. So if a company were to give everyone in their employ paid leave on December 26 so that the 1.6% of their company could celebrate Kwanza, what do they do on December 25 when 90% of their employs take off to celebrate Christmas? Doesn’t it make more sense to make Christmas the Paid holiday instead of Kwanza? That’s also the reason why the federal government does it.
Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
I do know that when little kids ask their parents what Christmas is for, and what all the presents are about, they get the Jesus story, even in most non-religious families. That story even probably gets to be a little embellished when the kid starts asking uncomfortable questions like where does Santa come in, and what about the North Pole.

If parents want to tell their children the “Jesus story” in response to their children’s inquiry about Christmas that sounds like the prerogative of the parents, doesn’t it? They aren’t required to tell their children the Jesus story, and there is certainly plenty of tradition and folklore surrounding Christmas that has nothing to do with Jesus.
Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
Maybe I live in a fantasy world, but I've never been able to really find any other instance in any of the cities that I've lived in or visited during the holidays. And I don't think it should be that way. I don't think non-Christian families should be put into that situation. I would be *perfectly* happy not having Christmas as a federal holiday (which is more reasonable than having time-off style observance of all of the major groups' holidays), and perhaps having a neutral, generic "Holiday" observance that can have all of the commercialism and trappings that we associate with it now. There's no reason to single Christmas out above all of the other holidays.

There is a good reason to single it out if you practice it. Why should someone who wants to practice Christmas practice something else or god-forbid some grotesque “neutral, generic” holiday to satisfy some problem you have with some hypothetical “non-Christian families” choosing to tell their children the “Jesus story” (as if that is some horrible offense). And suppose that the federal government does abolish Christmas as a federal holiday, what do you suppose is going to happen then? Do you think the country will just stop practicing Christmas? No. Almost everyone in the country will still take Christmas off; they will still put up Christmas trees and exchange gifts; the stores will still be closed, and the whole country will still shut down for Christmas. So what have you accomplished? Well, you’ve probably pissed off a lot of people, not the least of which will be the government employees who enjoy getting their federal holidays, but other then that, all the Who’s down in Whoville will still practice Christmas, including presumably those hypothetical non-Christian Whos.

Here is an example of some of the stories and lore that parents can and do tell their children about on Christmas:
Quote:

Every Who down in Who-ville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any presents at all!
He HADN'T stopped Christmas from coming!
IT CAME!

Somehow or other, it came just the same!
And the Grinch, with his grinch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
Stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so?
It came without ribbons! It came without tags!
"It came without packages, boxes or bags!"
And he puzzled three hours, `till his puzzler was sore.
Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before!
"Maybe Christmas," he thought, "doesn't come from a store.
"Maybe Christmas...perhaps...means a little bit more!"

Christmas also doesn’t come from a federal holiday. It is a part of our culture.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, December 10, 2006 12:11 PM

AMITON


I think we'll have to agree to kind of disagree, Finn. It (kind of) seems like we're making the same arguments, only on different sides of the debate - i.e. you're saying it's this way and it works for these reasons, while I'm saying it's broken, or at least a misapplication, for those same reasons.

Machiavelli v. Michelangelo, Sartre v. St. Francis, it breaks down to a matter of perspective, I guess. Then again, I guess most debates do, don't they?

Amiton.

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Sunday, December 10, 2006 2:53 PM

RHYIANAN


I'll have to agree that not many people know that christmas is really a pagan holiday. I'm actually suprised that so many people in this thread know about it.

Growing up, I didn't have christmas just because of the pagan roots. My father decided that as Christians, we couldn't celebrate any of it because all the rituals were pagan and the holiday (in his eyes) had no redeeming qualities that would make it christian. I had to explain why I didn't celebrate christmas for years, mostly in school, and nobody knew anything about what I was talking about. Some of the teachers even thought I was making it up just to get out of doing what we were supposed to do in class. I was the only one that didn't participate in the activities, even though there were many non-Christians there as well.

Obviously, due to my upbringing, we know where I stand on the christian/pagan side of the debate.

That said, I think christmas is too culturally entrenched to be eradicated. The majority of people are so used to celebrating the holiday that it wouldn't do very much. Also, what would the economy do without black Friday? It's a tradition that will take a great deal of pushing to get displaced.


I'm a leaf on the wind

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Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


If we wanted to replaced x-mas with something non-denominational we could replace it with the solstice. But that doesn't carry the same frenetic buy and spend message. It would have to be made more business-friendly to be accepted.

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Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:35 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
I think we'll have to agree to kind of disagree, Finn. It (kind of) seems like we're making the same arguments, only on different sides of the debate - i.e. you're saying it's this way and it works for these reasons, while I'm saying it's broken, or at least a misapplication, for those same reasons.

Machiavelli v. Michelangelo, Sartre v. St. Francis, it breaks down to a matter of perspective, I guess. Then again, I guess most debates do, don't they?

In one way or another, probably. But you’re probably right that we aren’t likely to find a mutually agreeable resolution on this matter. It’s just baffling to me that anyone would have such a problem with Christmas, of all things. In the end, you’re argument basically boils to the idea that people who practice Christmas should be apologetic for it because there are more of them. But why? It doesn’t make sense to me.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, December 11, 2006 3:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Christmas trees gone from Seattle-Tacoma Airport

Dec. 10, 2006 — There is a damper on Christmas cheer at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport: A rabbi's complaint led to the removal this weekend of synthetic Christmas trees that have decorated the entrances every holiday season for the last 25 years.

The man behind their disappearance, Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, told a Seattle newspaper he's "appalled" that the airport officials removed the trees. His goal was not to clear out Christmas, but rather to add a celebration of Hanukah. He asked the port of Seattle, which runs the airport, to build an eight-foot menorah and hold a lighting ceremony.

"Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday," he told the Seattle Times. "For many people, the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2715008&page=1

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Monday, December 11, 2006 5:46 AM

JONNYQUEST

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"


In the paraphrase I so gleefully steal from Citizen at every possible opportunity: "Baby, Bathwater, meet 'OUT'."


"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Monday, December 11, 2006 6:11 AM

AMITON


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s just baffling to me that anyone would have such a problem with Christmas, of all things. In the end, you’re argument basically boils to the idea that people who practice Christmas should be apologetic for it because there are more of them. But why? It doesn’t make sense to me.



Nah, I guess I'm misrepresenting myself, Finn. I don't have a problem with Christmas at all. It's fun and it's a reason for people to be nice to each other. Although I do wish it didn't cost me so much money every year =p

There are issues here and there, such as, like I said, I don't think it's fair to have such particular attention paid to one religion's holiday without giving fair representation to others. But the fact of the matter is that it's part of our culture, and it's deeply intimate with the US economy, and very possibly all of the western national economies. It is what it is =)

Amiton.

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Monday, December 11, 2006 7:44 PM

ROCKETJOCK


As anyone who reads my posts on a regular basis already knows, I'm a born-again Heathen, a Druid-in-training, and the world's only Pagan Agnostic (I don't just doubt the existence of God, I doubt the existence of all the Gods in alphabetical order, beginning with Allah and ending with Zeus!)

I'm always adamant about the separation of church and state, first to argue with anyone about our supposed "Christian forefathers", and find the forced implantation of "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance absolutely hilarious. (Did you know that the author of that piece was both a Socialist
and an Atheist? Amazing the things you learn trying to look up something else...)

All right, with that background, you probably already know how I'm going to stand on this issue.

Wrong. I like Christmas, right where it is. Mid-winter is a good place to put a holiday, which is why so many societies have done so. Heck, I'm sure that's the whole reason the early Christians put it there to begin with--it certainly didn't have anything to due with Jesus' actual birthday, which could have happened any time of year except winter. (Shepherds don't abide in their fields at that time of year, even in the middle east.)

That this midwinter festival happens to coincide with a majority religion I don't personally subscribe to bothers me not a whit.

So what if 12/25 doesn't precisely match up with the Winter Solstice? I'll still wish folk a happy Yuletide, as they go to fill their stockings or light the menorah. No skin off my nose. It's what attorneys call a De Minimus situation; the minor damage to church-N-state isn't worth the divisive emotions stirred up by efforts to correct it. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Okay, now for a personal anecdote; one December day, as I was entering the local Safeway on my lunch hour, I passed a Salvation Army bell-ringer who was being harangued by a little-old-lady type, dead set on educating him about the pagan origins of the Christmas holiday.

"It's nothing but a Heathen sun festival! We're teaching children to worship Santa Claus ahead of Jesus! Don't you realize that you're perpetuating devil worship!" And so on.

I exited ten minutes later, lunch in hand, to find that Mrs. Grundy was still lecturing the poor fellow, who was demonstrating the patience of Job.

I girded my loins, pulled my Thor's hammer out from under my shirt, walked up behind her, and bellowed "YOU'RE RIGHT!" at the top of my lungs. "You're absolutely right! The Christians stole Yuletide from the Vikings, they stole Easter from the Babylonians -- hell, half the Patron Saints in Europe used to be Pagan Gods and Goddesses! Don't you people have any imagination at all? Why don't you go home and think of some holidays for yourself, instead of ripping off the Pagans?"

She looked as if I'd slapped her in the face with a fresh trout, eyes as big as pie plates. She stumbled off, looking back over her shoulder from time to time.

The bell ringer let out a very long sigh, smiled gratefully, and said "Bless you, sir."

I shrugged, and said "Blessed be yourself--and Merry Christmas."



"Joyeux Noël, Y'all!" -- Zonker Harris

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Monday, December 11, 2006 10:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Wow.... another thread about another topic about destroying life as I knew it growing up. Yeah! Let's just all have sex until we are one color and speak one language and one religion. We'll praise the year of our Ford like they did in Brave New World!

I don't subscribe to any religion, but I'm really getting quite tired of being made to feel bad about the way my parents and their parents before them did things.

This world doesn't even vaguely resemble the world I lived in when 20 some odd years ago when I was young enough to believe in Santa.

Let the Atheists and Pagans and Muslims have it. I don't want to be around here much longer anyways.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, December 12, 2006 4:52 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Wow.... another thread about another topic about destroying life as I knew it growing up.

Let the Atheists and Pagans and Muslims have it. I don't want to be around here much longer anyways.



Well, speaking for the pagans, we'll be happy to take it off your hands. We're going to want to see a deed, though. Squatters rights won't cut it.

Y'know, if you'd bothered to actually read the rest of the thread, you might have noticed that most of the posters are in favor of the holiday more or less as-is. Hell, right above your post I just spent most of my own defending Christmas in no uncertain terms.

I have to wonder why you are so scared at the very idea of discussing the matter. Is the thought of a world where you are not in the driver's seat so very frightening?

Now to a separate issue:
Quote:

Let's just all have sex until we are one color and speak one language and one religion.


As one-half of a black-and-white marriage, I want you to know, I found the above sentence highly insulting. While I wouldn't wish it on the world myself (I like variety), what's wrong with being one color?

Major league uncool phrasing dude.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Tuesday, December 12, 2006 5:47 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


That's exactly what I'm talking about RocketJock. That's my opinion and screw you if you don't like it. It's not as if I'm burning crosses on your front lawn. I'm genuinely glad you have a happy relationship and I could give two shits about it being a mixed marriage. Good for you. I'm glad your happy. I envy it actually as I don't think I'll ever find anyone. I'm also glad for you that you live in a world where your future children won't be persecuted for it. Kiss my ass if you don't like what I have to say though. If you're really happy then you won't let what others have to say bother you anyhow.

You pointed out the very idea of why I'm afraid of discussing the matter. Because I am a white hetrosexual male, I have very little right to my opinions. Anything I cay can be "highly offensive" and get me sued or fired, while I have to hear comedians and movies and tv shows every day make fun of me, and ridicule me and make me feel bad because of the color of my skin. I already do enough self loathing buddy, I really don't need your help or that of the media.

I'm sorry your (or your spouces) parents and grandparents and before them had it shittier than you got it today. I came from a family of broke ass Polocks myself and we sure as hell didn't own any slaves. I'm sure that time was tough, but I sure as shit didn't do anything to ya'all and I'm tired of being made to feel bad about it every damn time I turn on the TV. I got picked on a lot in junior high and highschool until I worked out and started kicking ass for pleasure, so I can tell you a few stories about being offended and terrorized myself.

You know... all the "white" people used to not be called "white". We were Irish and Polish and German and English and whatever and we pretty much all hated each other. It's not necessarily a bad thing, the melting pot of America, even becoming one color. I happen to be of Italian, German, Dutch, Polish, Irish, Norwegian, Sweedish and English decent myself. The thing that scares me is one singular train of thought. That's what make humans so great is our differences in perspective. Variety being the spice of life. When I was first on Napster when I was about 19 I thought it was pretty sad and scary at the same time that everybody from other countries was downloading the same pop music I was listening to. We are losing our cultures and we will all be one color with no religion watching American Idol every week in a few generations. I have nothing against black people or mexicans or asians or anyone.... I just think that it's sad that we preach diversity, while at the same time we are headed straight for conformity.

And for the record... we can dance. We just got called fags by the other white kids that couldn't growing up so most of us didn't learn how to. Dancing ability is all about environment and has nothing to do with color.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:21 PM

JOHNNYREB


Howdy, Ya'll. It's been a while since I've posted. Gorram glad to be back in the saddle.

Now...Down to business.

The CIA World Factbook states that America is: Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

The reason we celebrate X-mas here is that there are more Christians--plain and simple. It's not like we are spitting on mosques, trampling Menorahs, and burning the Crone in effigy to celebrate what most agree (rightly or wrongly) is the birthday of Christ.

Where do you draw the line? How far do we have to bend over backwards to make everyone happy? At what point do you say--too bad? Hey, you know what? I'm a minority too. There's only one of me. How come no one is rewriting laws and lining up to make sure I'm happy? Surely, someone sees the wisdom in all this?

Sorry my first post in too-long was a rant, but...

Viva Firefly!

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Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:03 PM

ROCKETJOCK


6ixStringJack:

I was in a bit of a rush to get to work this morning when I wrote my post, so perhaps I didn't think my words out wisely. You're entitled to your opinion, no dispute.

But the way you phrased that opinion -- "Let's just all have sex until we are one color--" implies that there's something wrong in people of different colors having sex. That it's an offense to, I don't know, the purity of our precious bodily fluids or something.

It wasn't all that long ago that my marriage, and my children, were both considered illegitimate in a number of states. And sixteen of those states still have miscegenation laws on the books, held at bay only by a Supreme Court decision.

Maybe you didn't realize that. "20 odd years ago", when you were still young enough to believe in Santa, I was already married, and raising my first child--and dealing with prejudice, from blacks and whites alike.

I'm not generally over-sensitive, and I thought "Political Correctness" was a bad joke from the start. But I've got a few sore spots and hot buttons, and that sentence of yours pushed mine. Mea Culpa. I always say, the best way to describe a knee-jerk reaction is to delete the work "knee". You caught me out being a schmuck. Mea maxima culpa.

But I'm a schmuck with a bit more experience in this area than you, my twenty-something friend.

You know, like you, I remember the days when being white and Christian was automatically considered the "default/normal" setting for Americans. The difference is, I think the shift in attitude is an improvement, in that America was never as monochrome and monolithic as "Leave it to Beaver" led us to believe.

Oh, by the way, I have nothing against your ancestors, nor do I think they oppressed mine. For the record, my ancestry encompasses half of Europe, from vikings to puritans, from conquistadors to peat-bog Irish. White trash Heinz 57 through and through, with ancestors on both sides of the Civil War. Nobody ever gave us a free ride either. Especially the Irish.



"All right, we'll give some land to the niggers and the chinks, but we DON'T WANT THE IRISH." -- Olson Johnson

P.S. An apology to everybody for the unintended threadjacking. Hopefully we can get back to discussing Christmas again soon.

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Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:01 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


RocketJock. I appreciate your post my man. Sometimes I should think my words out better myself before saying or especially typing them because that's what really can get you into trouble. I'm not a racist, although I suppose my tendancy to say what I think might make somebody question that from time to time.

Where I grew up, that's all there was around me.... white Christians. Then everything did change. I'm not saying it's bad. It's just different. I'd really like for the verbal attacks to stop though because us white guys that are just bystandards to the ebbs and flows of demographics got feelings too.

Not only did TV do a disservice to us whitebread kids, but our own schools did as well. They left us completely unprepaired for change. They pitted us against each other for years... just look at any movie about high school in the 80's and you'll know what I mean. Blacks amaze me in how they are so united in this idea of rising up. They might hate each other for any other reason under the sun, but they've got that. White people have this general distrust of their own kind and have no common ground to stand on.

Today this disservice extends to every American of any color.... While we've been getting the 3rd rate educations with our beloved No Child Left Behind Act, they've been teaching the Indians and Chinese tech skills and 3 or 4 different languages. That's where all of our tech jobs have been going. They didn't have any money over there to educate the kids... how did they get it done? They certainly didn't have the billions of dollars a year we so obviously misspend.

I appreciate your words on political correctness too, although I don't think it's a joke at all. I think, though valid in certain situations, it's basically no more than a means for suppression of free speech. It's very easy to take something out of context and call somebody a racist, and once you've successfully gotten the collective to think somebody is racist then you've successfully ensured that their entire point will be lost, no matter how valid it was. Destroy somebody's credibility and they might as well just shut up because they're done.

Look at what they did to Bill Cosby. I think last year he was saying some of the smartest things that anyone had been saying to our youth, and look what they did.... they framed him for supposed date rape and you've barely heard a peep from him since. R Kelly pees on an underage girl and he's still a role model.

Anyways..... We've hijacked this thread for too long and I could write books about what I think. I'm just glad we're cool.

About Christmas... I don't even know what religion if any I buy into man. I guess that I've just had so much change happen around me that it might be nice just to have a thing or two that reminded me of my childhood. Maybe I should just distance myself from Christmas completely. I'm thinking that I'm taking an attack on Christmas as a personal attack on me and considering where I stand, I don't think I should be taking it to heart.

So, mea culpa too. Merry Christmas.



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:29 PM

REAVERMAN


I, personally, am an atheist. I want nothing to do with Christianity anymore. But I dont mind Christmas. Its more of a corporate holiday nowadays anyway, so why try to ban it? Well, okay, the holiday music makes me want to ram my head into a brick wall, but other than that, Chrismas is great.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:06 AM

JORUNE


I would take the days off. I see it as important to give thanks for the birth of Jesus. I secondly see as important that we do not give the state/employers a precedent to steal other holidays.

This time off was hard fought by generations of people who wanted the time off to celebrate a joyous event. Cancelling Christmas is just plain unacceptable.

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 7:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


If I had my 'druthers, I'd create a holiday that stretches from the solar end of the year (Dec 22) to the calendar beginning of the New Year (Jan 1). Something different to do every day:

Dec 22- Contemplate all you did wrong in the year.
Write them down. Then burn the paper in a midnight ceremony.

Dec 23- Put up lights and candles to celebrate the coming season.

Dec 24-25 Gift your family and friends. Wipe away grudges, renew your commitment to those you love.

Dec 26-27 Clean out your house. Give away what you don't need. Keep the receipts for tax purposes.

Dec 28-29 Share your goodwill with people who are NOT in your family. Help out at a soup kitchen (keep the receipts for tax purposes), go to a ceremeony where you extend the hand of friendship to others, sing and dance together.

Dec 30 Be alone. Contemplate.

Dec 31 Take stock of your assets. Make resolutions for the New Year. Stay up until midnight to greet it.

Jan 1 Sleep in!
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 8:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BTW- I'd create secular holidays for spring and summer too. (We already have Thanksgiving in fall).

So if you were to create holidays, what would YOU like????

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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