REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Torture Smorture

POSTED BY: KANEMAN
UPDATED: Friday, November 3, 2006 19:15
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1791
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Saturday, October 28, 2006 8:41 AM

KANEMAN


I can not take another politician or liberal throwing around the word torture. It is intended to solicit an emotional response as opposed to an intellectual one. Any truthful person would agree that the rack, maiden, or cutting off fingers is torture. They would also agree that playing loud music, sleep deprivation, not allowing the Karon, or dunking someones head in water is not. They maybe aggressive interrogation techniques, but they certainly are not torture. Am I wrong on this? What is torture? My guess is everyone will have a different definition.

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 8:49 AM

SIMONWHO


If I hold your head under water until you were at the point of drowning... I'd keep it there.


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Saturday, October 28, 2006 8:52 AM

TPAGE


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
They would also agree that playing loud music, sleep deprivation, not allowing the Karon, or dunking someones head in water is not.



I would mostly agree with this statement. However, when multiple methods of actions that in themselves are not tortured and use to systimatically wear down the resistance and, in effect, degrade the individual in the eye's of others, IS torture.

Examples: A teenager playing loud music to annoy his parents is obviously not torture (although the parents might say so). Depriving military personnel of sleep during training is not torture (it is preparing them for combat situations).

But once you continually deprive someone of sleep, play loud music, and constantly dunk their head in water it then becomes torture because it is systimatically wearing someone down with the purpose to degrade them.

Disclaimer: the military example can be on the fence. Technically, you could say some of the things done are torture (deprivation of sleep, loud sounds: artillery, grandes, etc., crawling through the mud) however it is reasonable because it is preparing them for their job. Same as how Firefighters cannot claim that entering a burning building is hazardous, obviously it is but that's their job.

I hope this isn't too vague, but that's my opinion (obviously).

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:00 AM

SOUPCATCHER




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Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:33 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
I can not take another politician or liberal throwing around the word torture. It is intended to solicit an emotional response as opposed to an intellectual one. Any truthful person would agree that the rack, maiden, or cutting off fingers is torture. They would also agree that playing loud music, sleep deprivation, not allowing the Karon, or dunking someones head in water is not. They maybe aggressive interrogation techniques, but they certainly are not torture. Am I wrong on this? What is torture? My guess is everyone will have a different definition.

Well experiencing is knowing, so lets you and me meet up and I'll do all those things to you and then we can discuss what you think they are afterwards.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 10:42 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:







http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/news_2006-09-26.html

Quote:

1. Water Boarding is when a prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. This tactic simulates drowning. Water boarding creates the sensation of imminent death by drowning. Survivors of death threats suffer high rates of post-traumatic stress disorder and depression. Despite the "simulated" drowning, hypoxia can and probably does occur. At the same time, a dramatic physiologic stress response, with tachycardia, hyperventilation and labored breathing is almost unavoidable. The combined psychiatric and physiologic stress resulting from this technique could induce cardiac ischemia and other cardiac issues in vulnerable individuals, and even brief hypoxia can cause neurological damage.

2. Prolonged Sleep Deprivation results in a number of deleterious psychological effects, most prominent among them being cognitive impairment. Cognitive impairments include memory, learning, logical reasoning, complex verbal processing, and decision-making. Sleep restriction can also result in hypertension, cardiovascular disease, a decrease in immune function, altered glucose tolerance and insulin resistance.

3. The cold cell/induced hypothermia (dangerously low body temperature): The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water. Hypothermia can cause reduced psychological function and mental capacity; loss of muscle function, harm to the cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, respiratory, and nervous, systems; and even death.

4. Shaking: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him. Shaking a prisoner has been outlawed by Israel's Supreme Court. Shaking can result in trauma to the brain through an acceleration-deceleration mechanism. Consequences may include intracranial hemorrhage, potentially leading to increased intracranial pressure and herniation, a potentially fatal complication. Some brain trauma from shaking can potentially result in more subtle but clinically significant cognitive impairment.

5. Striking/slapping: While a slap diffuses the force a blow over a greater area than a closed-fist punch, a slap nevertheless causes blunt force trauma. Depending on where applied to the body, the resulting injury can be significant. Slaps delivered to vulnerable areas of the face including nose, eyes or mouth can result in soft tissue injury, bruising and laceration. Facial bones may also be fractured. A slap to the face also creates a torsion force that may result in neck injury. A slap to the abdomen can cause soft tissue injury, and even rib fracture. Internal organ damage includes such serious injuries as the rupture of the spleen.

6. Prolonged standing: According to media reports, prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Prolonged standing is associated with venous thrombotic phenomenon such as deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism. Thrombo-embolic sequelae can be both acute and chronic. In addition, prolonged standing carries the risk of fainting, which can result in significant blunt force trauma including head injury, fractures and other soft tissue injury.

7. Threats of harm and mock execution: These tactics, like water-boarding, are based on threats of death or severe harm. Mock execution and other threats of harm to the subject, or to the subject's family and loved ones, have been clinically found to cause the highest rates of depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder and personality change.



---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 11:28 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
If I hold your head under water until you were at the point of drowning... I'd keep it there.




OMG, a sense of humor from your clenched ass...Wow, times a changin.

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 11:36 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
Quote:

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:







http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/news_2006-09-26.html

Quote:

1. Water Boarding is when a prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. This tactic simulates drowning. Water boarding creates the sensation of imminent death by drowning. Survivors of death threats suffer high rates of post-traumatic stress disorder and depression. Despite the "simulated" drowning, hypoxia can and probably does occur. At the same time, a dramatic physiologic stress response, with tachycardia, hyperventilation and labored breathing is almost unavoidable. The combined psychiatric and physiologic stress resulting from this technique could induce cardiac ischemia and other cardiac issues in vulnerable individuals, and even brief hypoxia can cause neurological damage.

2. Prolonged Sleep Deprivation results in a number of deleterious psychological effects, most prominent among them being cognitive impairment. Cognitive impairments include memory, learning, logical reasoning, complex verbal processing, and decision-making. Sleep restriction can also result in hypertension, cardiovascular disease, a decrease in immune function, altered glucose tolerance and insulin resistance.

3. The cold cell/induced hypothermia (dangerously low body temperature): The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water. Hypothermia can cause reduced psychological function and mental capacity; loss of muscle function, harm to the cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, respiratory, and nervous, systems; and even death.

4. Shaking: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him. Shaking a prisoner has been outlawed by Israel's Supreme Court. Shaking can result in trauma to the brain through an acceleration-deceleration mechanism. Consequences may include intracranial hemorrhage, potentially leading to increased intracranial pressure and herniation, a potentially fatal complication. Some brain trauma from shaking can potentially result in more subtle but clinically significant cognitive impairment.

5. Striking/slapping: While a slap diffuses the force a blow over a greater area than a closed-fist punch, a slap nevertheless causes blunt force trauma. Depending on where applied to the body, the resulting injury can be significant. Slaps delivered to vulnerable areas of the face including nose, eyes or mouth can result in soft tissue injury, bruising and laceration. Facial bones may also be fractured. A slap to the face also creates a torsion force that may result in neck injury. A slap to the abdomen can cause soft tissue injury, and even rib fracture. Internal organ damage includes such serious injuries as the rupture of the spleen.

6. Prolonged standing: According to media reports, prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Prolonged standing is associated with venous thrombotic phenomenon such as deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism. Thrombo-embolic sequelae can be both acute and chronic. In addition, prolonged standing carries the risk of fainting, which can result in significant blunt force trauma including head injury, fractures and other soft tissue injury.

7. Threats of harm and mock execution: These tactics, like water-boarding, are based on threats of death or severe harm. Mock execution and other threats of harm to the subject, or to the subject's family and loved ones, have been clinically found to cause the highest rates of depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder and personality change.



---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote



Shaking, slapping, mocking, and standing.... my goodness that's a stretch...rather funny post though. I'm afraid to go to that phrusa site, I may laugh myself to death.

Should an interrogator just ask nicely? Maybe say please? Offer brownies and muffins?

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 11:39 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
I can not take another politician or liberal throwing around the word torture. It is intended to solicit an emotional response as opposed to an intellectual one. Any truthful person would agree that the rack, maiden, or cutting off fingers is torture. They would also agree that playing loud music, sleep deprivation, not allowing the Karon, or dunking someones head in water is not. They maybe aggressive interrogation techniques, but they certainly are not torture. Am I wrong on this? What is torture? My guess is everyone will have a different definition.

Well experiencing is knowing, so lets you and me meet up and I'll do all those things to you and then we can discuss what you think they are afterwards.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.




No thanks citz, really loud Liza Minelli would surely cause me harm. That is what you fags listen to, right?

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 1:16 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


personally, I was raised on 2 principles:

1> Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

and:

2> All a soldier is required to give, and all you are allowed to ask, is name, rank, and serial number.

While that may not be how American POWs are treated always, what have we actually gained thru harsh interrogation that justifies putting all future American GI's at risk?

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 1:43 PM

CITIZEN


I know you love me really.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 2:04 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Shaking, slapping, mocking, and standing.... my goodness that's a stretch...rather funny post though. I'm afraid to go to that phrusa site, I may laugh myself to death.



"Don't bash it 'till you've tried it."

Quote:

Should an interrogator just ask nicely? Maybe say please? Offer brownies and muffins?


I don't know. Has anybody tried it? Or, maybe, gotten a psychologist in there?

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 3:16 PM

DREAMTROVE


Okay, here's a conservative throwing it around.

Torture

The US endorses torture.
We're torture king.
The other superpowers to endorse torture include China, the USSR and Nazi Germany. The little guys who do include Israel, Saudi Arabia, Saddam Hussein's Iraq, NK, and a few truly disasterous third world dictatorships like Zimbabwe. Wow, what great company we're in. BTW, all of those countries except for Israel and Saudi Arabia have socialist in the name of their govt.

When the Bush admin went on tilt and started openly backing torture, it violated not only the Geneva convention, but it violated a US law banning the use of torture by American forces or people acting on their behalf.

Jesse Helms wrote that law.

Is that conservative enough for you?



This isn't a left right issue, it's a human issue. I'm a human, I have no idea what you are. Maybe you're a troll.

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Monday, October 30, 2006 4:46 PM

KANEMAN


"in effect, degrade the individual in the eye's of others, IS torture."

So, now degradation IS torture.........Wow. I hope you are not in the CIA.

"Okay, here's a conservative throwing it around"

Conservative!...Yeah, okay ....a conspiracative maybe...conservative never.....







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Tuesday, October 31, 2006 8:45 PM

DREAMTROVE


Kaneman,

When you have your genitals crushed, your fingers pulled off, your bones broken and teeth knocked out with a hammer, let us know how you like it.

Because these are first hand accounts by Iraqis and Afghans with photos and videotape which I've seen online.

Sure, I can hear it now "it's all faked",

Listen. I balance the evidence, and weigh the odds.
Who's story more likely, given the evidence. The guys with a camp that looks just like auschwitz, or the guy with no fingers or teeth?

BTW,

On the whole creep-o-meter - to all you pro-torture conservatives, which includes all you torture-denial conservatives - the rest of us really don't appreciate your support. I know there's a solid majority of conservatives on this forum which oppose torture.

I hope when some actual conservative comes to power they prosecute these sons of bitches, all the way to the top. I support a zero tolerance policy on the cr@p.

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Friday, November 3, 2006 7:04 PM

CENTURY22


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
My guess is everyone will have a different definition.



I'll agree with that part.

I aim to misbehave.

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Friday, November 3, 2006 7:15 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I don't think it matters what 'everyone' thinks. As I read it, it's only what the ICC thinks that counts.
Since Pelosi ruled out impeachment, and the ICC is empowered to take action specifically in countries that aren't pursuing war crimes, it puts it in the ICC's jurisdiction. What do you think the ICC might say?

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