REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Religion and the Founding Fathers

POSTED BY: MISBEHAVEN
UPDATED: Saturday, September 30, 2006 14:54
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Saturday, September 23, 2006 6:55 PM

MISBEHAVEN


With elections quickly approaching, conservatives are already beginning to ratchet up the God rhetoric. Yet again, there's talk of banning gay marriage, as Republicans seek to use religion to galvanize their base. Already we're hearing talk about how this country was founded as a Christian nation, and how liberals are misinterpreting the separation of church and state. Here's some of the facts concerning the religious beliefs of the founding fathers.


The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians

by Steven Morris, in Free Inquiry

"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.

This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.


Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)


George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

From: George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)


John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

From: The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.


Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote: "The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

From: Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.


James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

From: The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.


Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."

From: Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)


Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said: "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.

From: Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.


The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.


The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.






"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:22 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.

Correction, until 1955 on PAPER* money, it was present on US coinage from 1864 in spite of it being blatantly unlawful.

The proper motto belonging on US currency is "E Pluribus Unum" literally "Out of many, One."

Prior to the 1955 act of congress(HR619,06-07-55)which allowed the defacement of our currency with this slogan, other slogans and phrases were occasionally printed on US paper money, of these, only one was sanctioned by congress.

"Mind your own business"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_your_own_business

Imagine what the folks who wrote that would think of the Dept of Homeland Security.

-Frem

*Since I dispute paper money in the first place, there's no sense in substantially debating the slogans ON it, for me, so I won't.

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Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:32 PM

CITIZEN


I found it ammusing when I was out there that for a supposedly secular nation from conception to birth all your money had "In God We Trust" printed on it.

Isn't that kind of forcing people to carry Christian symbols even if they are not Christian...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:14 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


Misbehaven, using facts to support your argument is really unfair to Republicans. It's a "faith based" party.

But, even if we falsely concede that the USA is some holy Christian nation, what has the Republican party done to deserve Christian votes?

The Republicans have been in total control of the US federal government for almost 6 years and have done nothing that they promised the Religious Right (Thank God).

Abortion: still legal
Gay marriage amendment: not passed
TV: more profane, more sexual content, more violence than ever before
Prayer in schoools: still not allowed
creationism: still not taught in public schools
Separation of Church and State: going strong

This is what magicians call "misdirection". The Republicans keep your attention over here while thay are robbing you blind. Your faith is being used to manipulate you into voting against your own economic interests. The Republicans will never fulfill their end of this covenant. By doing so, they would lose the ability to get Christians all riled up every two years over wedge social issues. What interest do Republicans have in losing this very effective campaign tool?

Christians, you've been hoodwinked, bamboozled, led astray, run amok...


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Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:42 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


a tiny addition to the article:

I did a paper on Thomas Paine once-- he was raised a Quaker, a pacifist.

Not only did he write Common Sense, the pamphlet advocating the Revolution; and The Age of Reason,an attack of literal Christianity and the literal truth of the Bible still relevant today, he also served , for a time, as a private soldier in the Revolutionary Army.

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:47 AM

KANEMAN


"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.


If that is true or not is irrelevant . We are not a christian nation. And didn't they come up with that separation thingy.


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Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:48 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I found it ammusing when I was out there that for a supposedly secular nation from conception to birth all your money had "In God We Trust" printed on it.

Isn't that kind of forcing people to carry Christian symbols even if they are not Christian...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.



Since when is "God" a christian only concept?

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:12 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Since when is "God" a christian only concept?

Come now, we both know which God it's talking about. Besides there's still people who don't believe in God of any denomination.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:13 AM

MISBEHAVEN




Anyone notice how Christians and right-wing Republicans are being uncharacteristically quiet about this post? It must have something to do with the irrefutable evidence.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:17 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Anyone notice how Christians and right-wing Republicans are being uncharacteristically quiet about this post? It must have something to do with the irrefutable evidence.



Come on, now - don't jinx it!

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:21 AM

MISBEHAVEN




I think we're safe. They're probably too busy praying for our atheistic souls.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:24 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:


I think we're safe. They're probably too busy praying for our atheistic souls.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell



Lol!

That must be it, then.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:29 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Good research Misbehaven.

Frem, I vote for a return to "Mind Your Own Business" as the motto for our money--this time I would put the full phrase in. I love that--sort of lends a sense of sovereignty to our profits and earnings.

Fellowtraveler, excellent points.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:34 AM

MISBEHAVEN



I second the MYOB motto.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:59 AM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


Thank you for posting this! I wish I could show it to my ultra-conservative, fundamentalist family. Oh wait I could, they'd just refuse to read it.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 2:39 PM

MISBEHAVEN




Glad to help out Whim. I sent it to some of the ultra-conservative members of my family, and I have yet to receive a response. I think it's the whole facts thing that's leaving them speechless.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 2:58 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Glad to help out Whim. I sent it to some of the ultra-conservative members of my family, and I have yet to receive a response. I think it's the whole facts thing that's leaving them speechless.


Facts? What are these facts you speak of? Do I know what facts even are?

I'm kidding, I'm kidding! It's all in fun! Please don't barbaque me!

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:30 PM

MISBEHAVEN


*adds another log to the fire*

You know facts: "truthiness," reality, actuality, certainty.



"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:38 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Truthiness... isn't that from The Colbert Report, where you make up your own truth?

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:48 PM

MISBEHAVEN



Oops! You got me.

It never got weird enough for me.
-Hunter S. Thompson

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:50 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:

Oops! You got me.

It never got weird enough for me.
-Hunter S. Thompson



Heehee! Nice sig, by the way.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:54 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Sig? I don't smoke tobacco.

I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.
-Hunter S. Thompson

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:16 PM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


Quote:

Glad to help out Whim. I sent it to some of the ultra-conservative members of my family, and I have yet to receive a response. I think it's the whole facts thing that's leaving them speechless.


I did send this to the one person in my family who has an open mind. Now I just need to convert them into a Browncoat.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:39 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Whimsicalnbrainpan:

I did send this to the one person in my family who has an open mind. Now I just need to convert them into a Browncoat.



Turning them into a Browncoat will be the easy part.

By the way, I started reading your blog, and it's incredible what you've survived. My heart goes out to you Whim. You've a level of courage few will ever know.



Buy the ticket. Take the ride.
-Hunter S. Thompson

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Sunday, September 24, 2006 5:34 PM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


Quote:

By the way, I started reading your blog, and it's incredible what you've survived. My heart goes out to you Whim. You've a level of courage few will ever know.


Thanks Misbehaven

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:27 PM

ANTIMASON


Citzen--"in God we trust" does not automatically support this premise that America has been infiltrated by fundementalist christians.... what drives me crazy is that none of you give this subject anything more than a cursory glance and then move on.. and in this way completely miss the forest for the trees

this thread is called "religion and our founding fathers"..

well, did you know that Lucifer(known by many names) is also considered a "God" by many of the mystery religions of the ancient world?

well these doctrines have been preserved by societies like the illuminati/freemasons; groups who set the foundation for our current political system. the links are stronger than you think.. so in this case we are not entirely secularly distinct like you all believe

it is Lucifer, rather than the christian God Yahweh, that is being represented by the collective symbolism adopted by the American establishment, which Yahweh declared in the OT to be idolatrous; such as the all seeing eye, the pheonix(eagle), the obelisks and pentagrams etc... because they are referring to secretive knowledge that was introduced to the ancients by "gods"(fallen angels), knowledge that is highly coveted by these secret socieities

it is said about these mysteries

“The magical mystery religion of Ancient Egypt exercised a great fascination over Renaissance man, which was incorporated into—the newly formed—Lodges at that time. The mysterious heiroglyphs were considered to be symbols of hidden knowledge. Symbols and gestures became a means of conveying secrets and "truths". The cosmos was seen as an organic unity. It was peopled by a hierarchy of spirits which exercised all kinds of influences and sympathies. The practice of magic became a holy quest.”

you may be right that America wasnt founded by christians..but in many ways it was founded by occultists... so is that any better? i guess as long as its not Jesus ...the irony is i dont hear any of you upset about this historical masonic revelation; rather its boastworthy to have nothing to do with Jesus. what is so heinous about Jesus' message? please, quote it back to me!

Masonry, which the majority of our founding fathers were members of, IS a religion! so consider the mark masonry has left on our country..and come back and defend this notion of this secular founding

for starters, the American political system is based off of a masonry, (ie. luciferian idealogy) which denies Jesus' deity as doctrine; because it also acknowledges Lucifer as the light(knowledge) bringer. a good article on this
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1144.cfm
which explains that luciferianism is a worldview, a religion; but something tells me i wont hear you all shouting about the hypocracy- probably because you dont recognize the symbolism, that it is infact religious in nature, and directly related to our cultural practices.

these quotes were taken from the most cherished of Masons (manly hall, albert pike); observe their language and subscribed relevency to the beliefs of the ancients

“Symbolism is the language of the Mysteries ... By symbols men have ever sought to communicate to each other those thoughts which transcend the limitations of language. Rejecting man-conceived dialects as inadequate and unworthy to perpetuate divine ideas, the Mysteries thus chose symbolism as a far more ingenious and ideal method of preserving their transcendental knowledge. In a single figure a symbol may both reveal and conceal, for to the wise the subject of the symbol is obvious, while to the ignorant the figure remains inscrutable. Hence, he who seeks to unveil the secret doctrine of antiquity must search for that doctrine not upon the open pages of books which might fall into the hands of the unworthy but in the place where it was originally concealed.”

“Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah. In that ancient and little understood medley of absurdity and philosophy, the Initiate will find the source of many doctrines; and may in time come to understand the Hermetic philosophers, the Alchemists, all the Anti-papal Thinkers of the Middle Ages, and Emanuel Swedenborg.”

“All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the illuminati, Jacob Bœhme, Swedenborg, Saint-Martin, and others, is borrowed from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols.”

“The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.”

and it goes on.. but i want my point to be clear that because AMerica is not overtly christian does not mean it is not of another religious pursuasion(occultic)

for a good archive http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/














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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:19 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Citzen--"in God we trust" does not automatically support this premise that America has been infiltrated by fundementalist christians.... what drives me crazy is that none of you give this subject anything more than a cursory glance and then move on.. and in this way completely miss the forest for the trees

this thread is called "religion and our founding fathers"..

well, did you know that Lucifer(known by many names) is also considered a "God" by many of the mystery religions of the ancient world?

well these doctrines have been preserved by societies like the illuminati/freemasons; groups who set the foundation for our current political system. the links are stronger than you think.. so in this case we are not entirely secularly distinct like you all believe

it is Lucifer, rather than the christian God Yahweh, that is being represented by the collective symbolism adopted by the American establishment, which Yahweh declared in the OT to be idolatrous; such as the all seeing eye, the pheonix(eagle), the obelisks and pentagrams etc... because they are referring to secretive knowledge that was introduced to the ancients by "gods"(fallen angels), knowledge that is highly coveted by these secret socieities

it is said about these mysteries

“The magical mystery religion of Ancient Egypt exercised a great fascination over Renaissance man, which was incorporated into—the newly formed—Lodges at that time. The mysterious heiroglyphs were considered to be symbols of hidden knowledge. Symbols and gestures became a means of conveying secrets and "truths". The cosmos was seen as an organic unity. It was peopled by a hierarchy of spirits which exercised all kinds of influences and sympathies. The practice of magic became a holy quest.”

you may be right that America wasnt founded by christians..but in many ways it was founded by occultists... so is that any better? i guess as long as its not Jesus ...the irony is i dont hear any of you upset about this historical masonic revelation; rather its boastworthy to have nothing to do with Jesus. what is so heinous about Jesus' message? please, quote it back to me!

Masonry, which the majority of our founding fathers were members of, IS a religion! so consider the mark masonry has left on our country..and come back and defend this notion of this secular founding

for starters, the American political system is based off of a masonry, (ie. luciferian idealogy) which denies Jesus' deity as doctrine; because it also acknowledges Lucifer as the light(knowledge) bringer. a good article on this
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1144.cfm
which explains that luciferianism is a worldview, a religion; but something tells me i wont hear you all shouting about the hypocracy- probably because you dont recognize the symbolism, that it is infact religious in nature, and directly related to our cultural practices.

these quotes were taken from the most cherished of Masons (manly hall, albert pike); observe their language and subscribed relevency to the beliefs of the ancients

“Symbolism is the language of the Mysteries ... By symbols men have ever sought to communicate to each other those thoughts which transcend the limitations of language. Rejecting man-conceived dialects as inadequate and unworthy to perpetuate divine ideas, the Mysteries thus chose symbolism as a far more ingenious and ideal method of preserving their transcendental knowledge. In a single figure a symbol may both reveal and conceal, for to the wise the subject of the symbol is obvious, while to the ignorant the figure remains inscrutable. Hence, he who seeks to unveil the secret doctrine of antiquity must search for that doctrine not upon the open pages of books which might fall into the hands of the unworthy but in the place where it was originally concealed.”

“Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah. In that ancient and little understood medley of absurdity and philosophy, the Initiate will find the source of many doctrines; and may in time come to understand the Hermetic philosophers, the Alchemists, all the Anti-papal Thinkers of the Middle Ages, and Emanuel Swedenborg.”

“All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the illuminati, Jacob Bœhme, Swedenborg, Saint-Martin, and others, is borrowed from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols.”

“The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.”

and it goes on.. but i want my point to be clear that because AMerica is not overtly christian does not mean it is not of another religious pursuasion(occultic)

for a good archive http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/



I'd take you more seriously if you learned to capitalize the first letter of every word that starts a new sentance, or the pronoun "I"...

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:26 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
Truthiness... isn't that from The Colbert Report, where you make up your own truth?



No, not quite. The "truthiness" of a proposition lies not in whether it is true or false but in whether or not it it ought to be true (in the opinion, presumably, of the speaker).

The logical construct runs kinda like this: "Proposition "X" supports my position; therefore proposition "X" ought to be true; it has truthiness!"

It's kind of related to the idea of "printing the legend", but with less artistic dignity.

"The truth. It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." -- Albus Dumbledore

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:29 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
Truthiness... isn't that from The Colbert Report, where you make up your own truth?



No, not quite. The "truthiness" of a proposition lies not in whether it is true or false but in whether or not it it ought to be true (in the opinion, presumably, of the speaker).

The logical construct runs kinda like this: "Proposition "X" supports my position; therefore proposition "X" ought to be true; it has truthiness!

It's kind of related to the idea of "printing the legend", but with less artistic dignity.

"The truth. It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." -- Albus Dumbledore



From Wikipedia (granted, not the best source; but, a lot of his rabid fans are part of it, so...):

"Truthiness is a satirical term coined by Stephen Colbert in reference to the quality by which a person claims to know something intuitively, instinctively, or 'from the gut' without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or actual facts."

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:03 AM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


Just curious Antimason, have you been illuminated? If you don't know what I'm talking about then you haven't. Just wanted to know.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:18 AM

CAPTAINJAMESKIRK


At present the United States of America is not a Christian nation. No Christian nation would kill its own children as the USA does in abortions every day.
The United States however was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs found in The Bible (ever hear of it?) and the founding fathers had something that unfortunately not to many people do in America these days....a fear of God.

Captain James T. Kirk
USS Enterprise NCC 1701-A

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:18 AM

CAPTAINJAMESKIRK


At present the United States of America is not a Christian nation. No Christian nation would kill its own children as the USA does in abortions every day.
The United States however was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs found in The Bible (ever hear of it?) and the founding fathers had something that unfortunately not to many people do in America these days....a fear of God.

Captain James T. Kirk
USS Enterprise NCC 1701-A

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:18 AM

CAPTAINJAMESKIRK


At present the United States of America is not a Christian nation. No Christian nation would kill its own children as the USA does in abortions every day.
The United States however was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs found in The Bible (ever hear of it?) and the founding fathers had something that unfortunately not to many people do in America these days....a fear of God.

Captain James T. Kirk
USS Enterprise NCC 1701-A

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:33 PM

CITIZEN


No, killing babies that can be used to put nonbelievers to the sword is most definatly not the Christian way. A good Christian nation would allow it's babies to die horribly killing other peoples babies I guess.

The US wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, not unless you redefine and appropriate certain beliefs as Christian only (which some Christians tend to do I'll grant you) and do a little bit of rewriting history (again a bit of a Christian trait that).



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:41 AM

ANTIMASON


citizen - point out to me the verse in the Bible where Jesus' endorses genocide, murder, persecution, indifference, bigotry, hate, deception, secrecy, greed or any other negetive action? show me! so that we can conclusively link SIN to christianity.. then we'll send our research into the media entitled "christianity linked to every and all of the worlds horrors"... we'll even put your name on it, so as you can have all the credit for diagnosing the cancer of mankind

please, i would like to see the evidence to your claim that Jesus' endorses genocide; because it wont be found!

the bible says that Mans nature is fallen, that all men are imperfect... so dont you understand that sin corrupts everyone?

are you claiming that only christians are murderers? lets take a mass of people.. lets say in china, and lets call them all buddhists: why is their still a crime rate? why are there still murders and scams and robberies and rapes? because MAN IS INHERENTLY IMPERFECT!

the purpose of Jesus' coming was to give man an example of perfection, to give us a model of God that mankind can strive for. can you follow Jesus' commands to a T? if you can, you might just be God manifest..but if you cant, then welcome to the club, as you are just as imperfect and sinfull as the rest of mankind.

if ANYONE< ANYWHERE< FOR ANY REASON committs a sin on behalf of JEsus', they are not doing Jesus' will.. they are doing their own, just as any human being is when they commit a selfish act for gain. what i love is that if you arent christian, your sinful acts are your own responsibilty, an act of your own freewill.. but if you believe in Jesus, then Jesus' must have made you do it. dont you see your hypocracy?

we can go back and forth all day pointing out atrocities committed by people of all pursuasions.. yet it will be the christians that you all cease upon as the culprit to all the evils of the world... nevermind that the bibles message is TO CONVINCE US TO ACT OTHERWISE! i mean, how do you reconcile that with your worldview then? whether the INDIVIDUAL is strong enough to resist the sinful temptation is a judgement upon the INDIVIDUAL, not the message of our doctrines

are you upset that christians are imperfect? me too.. which is why we are to strive for a persona beyond this world that would be seen as righteous to an entity beyond perfection. yet when we fail.. are we any different then the rest of you, who share the same inherint faults as the rest of the species?? then recognize the hypocracy of your judgements, because we all share in the same experiences

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:34 AM

CITIZEN


I never said anything about Jesus, Jesus preached the destruction of the church so why you harp on about Jesus teachings in relation to the Christian church when the two are more or less mutually exclusive I have absolutely no idea.

What I can do is show you where the BIBLE endorses genocide, murder, persecution, indifference, bigotry, hate, deception, secrecy, greed or any other negative action, thing is there's rather a lot of it so I don't really know where to start.

Maybe you can come up with the proof of how the Crusades weren't ordered and endorsed by the Roman Catholic church? Or how it's not really Christians who aren't really throwing bombs at abortion clinics. The latter is really quite funny in it's hypocrisy, they're willing to murder people for being 'murderers'.

You may want to be sure of what it is you are arguing against next time, CAPTAINJAMESKIRK was harping on about how much better things would be in a good Christian nation. Well you know what a good Christian Nation is? One that sends it's good Christian soldiers out to put the heathens to the sword.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:44 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I never said anything about Jesus, Jesus preached the destruction of the church so why you harp on about Jesus teachings in relation to the Christian church when the two are more or less mutually exclusive I have absolutely no idea.
Quote:



heres the thing Citizen- christian by definition is to conform to the likeness of Jesus. you may be refferring to what has been historically referred to as the "church", but to God, the church are those who do HIS WILL on earth, not the ANTchrists

Jesus is fundemental to all of my arguements around here, because Jesus does not support the behavior that can be plainly exposed as immoral and destructive. so then, are these christian political whores on the right who promote this fearmongering agenda of Terror and evil muslims christian, by definition? NO.. so these distinctions need to be made, as their is a fine line between christian and occultic

show me where Jesus acts immorally, otherwise understand that Jesus does not influence immoral behavior; period. the PURPOSE of God manifesting IN THE FLESH, was so Man could once again have a spiritual relationship with an entity uncomprehendable to us in our fallen state. Jesus as God manifest is the essence of christianity.. anything which claims to be christian, but negates or perverts Gods word is IN REALITY ANTIchristian*, regardless of what its motives or claims are.

Quote:

What I can do is show you where the BIBLE endorses genocide, murder, persecution, indifference, bigotry, hate, deception, secrecy, greed or any other negative action, thing is there's rather a lot of it so I don't really know where to start.

Maybe you can come up with the proof of how the Crusades weren't ordered and endorsed by the Roman Catholic church? Or how it's not really Christians who aren't really throwing bombs at abortion clinics. The latter is really quite funny in it's hypocrisy, they're willing to murder people for being 'murderers'.
Quote:



but does Jesus ever say that its "ok" to murder 'sinners', that its our duty to expose and judge people? no.. never, Jesus states plainly that only God is fit to judge, as he says "do not judge, or you will be judged".

again, if someone is not living by Jesus' word, then they are not true to the heart christians, but are just wearing it like a political label. when God says "no one is righteous, not one" he is implying that everybody falls short of Gods will. but do we recognize our faults, or sins, and correct them? or do we decide for ourselves what is moral or immoral? that is the important distinction

Quote:

You may want to be sure of what it is you are arguing against next time, CAPTAINJAMESKIRK was harping on about how much better things would be in a good Christian nation. Well you know what a good Christian Nation is? One that sends it's good Christian soldiers out to put the heathens to the sword.
Quote:



are we talking about Rome? because this should be clear by now that the Catholic church was so thoroughly infiltrated by occult doctrines from early on that it became in itself an antichristian force. i would love to have been their to have seen the Papacy justify war and murder, since Jesus' own words are

"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. if someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. do to others as you would have them do to you. if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? even 'sinners' do that. but love your enemies, do good to them; then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. be merciful, just as your Father is merciful"

im just showing you that the scriptures do not influence people to do these things.. if we are going to have a debate on the merits of christianity, lets be straight forward about the doctrines that actually taught by Jesus and the prophets





More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

Quote:


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Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:29 PM

CITIZEN


By your definition of Christianity there are no Christians, I'm not sure how that defends anything in anyway.

Look, I really have no care to how you rationalise attrocities committed by Christians. I was arguing against 'good Christian nations', evidently you think such a thing is a good idea.

Good luck with that, and when the good Christian government is putting people to death I'm sure those people will be comforted by you explaining that they aren't really Christians so it's not the Christian Theocratic government doing these things.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

...the founding fathers had something that unfortunately not to many people do in America these days....a fear of God.
Even George Washington on his deathbed turned the priest away.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:59 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
By your definition of Christianity there are no Christians, I'm not sure how that defends anything in anyway.
Quote:



im still waiting for you to show me which part of Jesus' message is so heinous that it directly inspires violence.. otherwise, you have no proof that christianity as a idealogy is responsible for all this destructive behavior. unless you have an idealogy, that you subsribe to, which promotes immoral behavior, then one acts that way out of their own free will.. dont you understand?

Jesus' PROMOTES love and tolerance, it is human nature that is corrupt

Quote:

Look, I really have no care to how you rationalise attrocities committed by Christians. I was arguing against 'good Christian nations', evidently you think such a thing is a good idea.
Quote:



i dont rationalize any atrocities by anyone... do you see me excusing genocide or conquests of any kind? listen to my message and understand : it is not JESUS who is responsible for these things. if Mohammed preaches terror as honorable, then the Koran becomes suspect... but if the Korans message is peace, then it is the individual follower who bears the blame. what influences you when you descriminate against christians? your own free will.. just as anyone who makes a conscious choice to act unjustly does

Quote:

Good luck with that, and when the good Christian government is putting people to death I'm sure those people will be comforted by you explaining that they aren't really Christians so it's not the Christian Theocratic government doing these things.
Quote:



the christian government? which one would that be?

Citizen ive tried to say countless times that what you think is christian is actually occultist. what defines a government as christian to you? the US government removed all references to God and the 10 commandments long ago... if your talking about symbols, like the "all seeing eye of providence".. these are OCCULT SYMBOLS! read any one of my previous posts in threads and you will see me make this point

until you consider occultism to be a legitimate presence, and a perversion of christianity, you will never understand the governments of this current age. the bible says that governments, authorities and powers, OF THIS WORLD(which means in all of mans history) are OPPOSED TO THE WILL OF GOD!

in the OT, God did not give Israel a government, they CHOSE a government themselves, against Gods will, because in their weak spiritual nature they wanted to be ruled over by Kings. there is no such thing as a christian government... if you cant comprehend this message, i wouldnt even know where to begin with you; but start with a bible, and a concordance, and look up "the world"; as every institution of power in this world is of Lucifer, not of Jesus; that is the bibles message, clear as day

your issue is that you dont believe God exists, so Jesus wasnt this GOd manifest, and the Bible is merely this fanciful fairy... so Jesus and his message is irrelevant to you. you see christian as a label that you can stereotype everyone into, to fit this preconceived notion of yours of these shallow, dogmatic, ignorant, un-informed war mongers.. when in reality it has become obvious that you truly dont even understand christianity. i have made point after point that Jesus, God manifest, never not once supports these terrible concepts that you attribute to christians; but rather states that these are signs of ANTICHRISTIANITY (or a false messiah, or false doctrine). am i denying that christians have committed sins? no..but that christianity does not influnce this sin

i have never condoned or apologized for the behavior of people who CLAIM to be followers of Jesus but break THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDS.. i have gone out of way to explain that such people are wolves in sheeps clothing.

i am trying to make the point, if youll acknowledge it, that there is no scriptural justification for the negative actions of christians in the past. every sin is the fault of mans fallen nature, whether you are a believer or not... yet being a believer does not condone or washover your sin, but rather holds you even more responsible for your faults. please try to understand this concept, since its the fundemental premise of the bible; hences mans need to be redeemed. i just dont think youve seriously studied the bible, otherwise these basic contradictions would be a little more apparent to you




More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.


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Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Anti- while I agree with you that the current crop of so-called Christians are doing everything BUT following Christ's message, the point is that you by yourself can't define what is and isn't Christian. Definitions are, by (ahem) definition, SHARED meanings. And unfortunately the definition of Christian has been taken over by a rather large group which is busy making the word synoynous with "dickhead hypocrite".

And no, I don't blame "Jesus" for what's going on. But I DO blame religiosity. What is the essential message of religion? It is to believe. If there are no questions, the prospect for self-correction disappears. It leaves people open to being victimized by hypocrites who use faith to rape others.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:03 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Anti- while I agree with you that the current crop of so-called Christians are doing everything BUT following Christ's message, the point is that you by yourself can't define what is and isn't Christian. Definitions are, by (ahem) definition, SHARED meanings. And unfortunately the definition of Christian has been taken over by a rather large group which is busy making the word synoynous with "dickhead hypocrite".



SIGNYM- i completely agree with you, and i think you make a great point that i really want to emphasize. i, just like you said, have no right to say what is christian and what is not, because that would essentially be judging others, and because i am also imperfect, i have no right nor desire, to condemn others for any action; that is absolutely not my intention at all, and this is a message i endorse whole heartedly, just as Jesus does; it seems like an obvious truth to me

but in these discussions, when we talk about the history of the world religions, inevitably the comment is made that religion has only fueled divisiveness and hate, such as the holy wars, crusades, witch hunts etc(and certainly your point is a huge factor in this.) but i dont feel that its an accurate assessment of the intent of the prophets of the bible, Jesus' collective message, or even a fair acocunt of our faithfull followers.

when i make the distinction between christian and anti-christian, i am speaking in both a doctrinal and historical sense, as in; the doctrines dont promote this behavior, and historically occultism has masqueuraded as christianity and perverted its message.

i am not here, nor do i have any desire to point fingers and expose people for flaws, faults or weaknesses... i am not the kind of person to do that, nor would i want that done to me. but if someone uses christianity as a tool for control, distorts its message and perverts its followers, that does deserve to be exposed; and politicians deserve to be scrutinized in this way, because they are the primary ones decieving people...

ephesians 6 says "put on your full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devils schemes; for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, agains the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

and my best example of this is the occult secret socieites that a number of prominant, so called christians are members of; like GW Bush and the Skull and Bones. Jesus says " for whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. if anyone has ears to hear, let him hear" .. he says this because secrecy implies deciet, and deciet is inexcusable. well there are few people more decietful then those in power.. those people deserve to be exposed, and those are the only people i wish to confront. these people who compromise Jesus for profit, who promote false idealogies, i think Paul says it best when he says

"i promised you one husband, to Christ, so that i might present you as a pure virign to him. but i am afraid that just as Eve was deceieved by the serpernts cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. for if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you recieve a different spirit from the one you recieved, or a different gospel from the on eyou accpeted, you put up with it easily enough.

"for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ, and no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. it is not suprisising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. their end will be what their actions deserve"






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Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:47 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
i think Paul says it best when he says

"i promised you one husband, to Christ, so that i might present you as a pure virign to him. but i am afraid that just as Eve was deceieved by the serpernts cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. for if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you recieve a different spirit from the one you recieved, or a different gospel from the on eyou accpeted, you put up with it easily enough.

"for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ, and no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. it is not suprisising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. their end will be what their actions deserve"



And thus you quote Paul, the sexist. How touching.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

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Friday, September 29, 2006 6:04 AM

CITIZEN


Firstly I'd appreciate some attempt to make your posts readable. The nested quoting thing makes it impossible.

Second I'm still waiting for you to actually talk to me, rather than this other citizen who's talking about Jesus.

Thirdly I'm talking about who Christian theocracies are a bad idea. I've told you this once, and you ignored it, maybe it'll sink in this time and you'll start to engage on that point rather than shouting about how Jesus was a nice fella.

Lastly, If you read the Bible, you perscribe to a Christian church then you are a Christian, the same as Muslim fanatics are Muslim. Neither Islam nor Christianity condone murder of innocents but both have enough violence in them to make it okay if you want to do it.

Religion fosters violence against non-believers, it's just the way it is, and arguing about "but in the Bible it says..." or "Jesus said..." is just non-logic because the Bible also says it's okay to kill people if they ain't Christian. The Bible is the word of the Christian religion, all of it, not just the bits you choose to look at because it fosters the view you like.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, September 29, 2006 7:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SIGNYM- i completely agree with you, and i think you make a great point that i really want to emphasize. i, just like you said, have no right to say what is christian and what is not, because that would essentially be judging others, and because i am also imperfect, i have no right nor desire, to condemn others for any action
Anti- you so completely miss my point that I wonder if you read my post. My idea has nothing to do with imperfection and forgiveness. My point is that it's meaningless and foolish to try a create your own singular definition of a word. Here. I'll give you an example that has nothing to do with religion: My definition of the word blue is green. "The sky is such a beautiful green today, don't you think?" How far do you think that will get me?

If you try to redefine words to meet YOUR personal ideology you'll just mess up communication because- theoretically- you're trying to communicate with others so you have to use words in the way THEY understand, not in the way you would like them to be.
Quote:

but in these discussions, when we talk about the history of the world religions, inevitably the comment is made that religion has only fueled divisiveness and hate, such as the holy wars, crusades, witch hunts etc(and certainly your point is a huge factor in this.) but i dont feel that its an accurate assessment of the intent of the prophets of the bible, Jesus' collective message, or even a fair acocunt of our faithfull followers.
First of all, you switched topics in the middle of your response. It sounds as if you're agreeing with me that in general religions promote hatred, division, and intolerance.... but then halfway through you make "special" reservations for the Bible parts that you happen to agree with.

My point has nothing to do with the "intent" of any religious teaching. The moment you answer questions with faith you have created undiscriminating followers who will be open to following anyone. What you wind up with is a host of wanna-bes all waving their arms and crying out the same message: "NO! Follow ME!! I am the way! Stop the others!!"

Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with the statement that ANY theocracy is dangerous- not specifically Xtian but also Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Animist etc. If even that statement gives you qualms, think about "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" and then see if you can come to grips with separation of ANY church from ANY state.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 9:15 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Anti- you so completely miss my point that I wonder if you read my post. My idea has nothing to do with imperfection and forgiveness. My point is that it's meaningless and foolish to try a create your own singular definition of a word. Here. I'll give you an example that has nothing to do with religion: My definition of the word blue is green. "The sky is such a beautiful green today, don't you think?" How far do you think that will get me?


OK.. so lets say i say im a christian alright; yet everyday i go out into the world, i lie, cheat, steal decieve and descriminate...does that make me christian?? so what are you talking about when you say "christians this/ or that?" what im telling you is that i can say im christian, but if i dont follow its teachings does that truly make me christian?? if christians are acting other than how Jesus' recommends, than why even bother defining christian, because it loses ALL OF ITS MEANING

you are so hostile towards anyone of any fiath that it doesnt really even matter what belief i hold, but atleast i am willing to put it out there; what do you believe in? whatever it is, you wont see me attacking your behavior, or anyone else who shares your view

Quote:

If you try to redefine words to meet YOUR personal ideology you'll just mess up communication because- theoretically- you're trying to communicate with others so you have to use words in the way THEY understand, not in the way you would like them to be.

First of all, you switched topics in the middle of your response. It sounds as if you're agreeing with me that in general religions promote hatred, division, and intolerance.... but then halfway through you make "special" reservations for the Bible parts that you happen to agree with.



i agree wtih you that to single out sin, and to take its correction into your own hands is an act of judgement.. which i do not do to anyone. that i agree wtih. but the purpose of the LAW was to expose what behavior is sinful, so that an individual can correct it himself... your telling me i cant define what is sinful period; in which case the bible would be irrelevant


Quote:

My point has nothing to do with the "intent" of any religious teaching. The moment you answer questions with faith you have created undiscriminating followers who will be open to following anyone. What you wind up with is a host of wanna-bes all waving their arms and crying out the same message: "NO! Follow ME!! I am the way! Stop the others!!"


intent is THEE point, for it the intent of JEsus' message that is indisputable.. your problems lie with individuals, which.. if you want to be like that, lets call the whole world out on their flaws.. it is not just christians friend; i could name PLENTY of tyrannous empires that were not christian. there is only one Jesus', and one way to interpret his word.. dont you get that? that is EXACTLY why Jesus said to be aware of false teachers and their destruction.

Quote:

Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with the statement that ANY theocracy is dangerous- not specifically Xtian but also Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Animist etc. If even that statement gives you qualms, think about "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" and then see if you can come to grips with separation of ANY church from ANY state.


first of all, i have never ever said that i dont want a seperation of church and state.. i dont know where you all are getting that from. i do feel that any theocracy is dangerous, because the bible says ANY institution of this world is not of GOd; ive made this pointcountless times before. if i am in error according to scripture, show me? if people were truly just, spiritual entities in their own right, we wouldnt need a government of any sort; but in this age, with mans current sinful nature, we do need them; but NO institution, as evidenced by the catholic church, can truly represent JEsus' word



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Friday, September 29, 2006 9:29 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Firstly I'd appreciate some attempt to make your posts readable. The nested quoting thing makes it impossible.

Second I'm still waiting for you to actually talk to me, rather than this other citizen who's talking about Jesus.



christianity is the doctrine of Jesus' teachings. if someone is applying teachings to their life that are contradictory, than is that still christianity?

Quote:

Thirdly I'm talking about who Christian theocracies are a bad idea. I've told you this once, and you ignored it, maybe it'll sink in this time and you'll start to engage on that point rather than shouting about how Jesus was a nice fella.


our religion is based on Jesus' teachings, that is all that is relevant. if my belief were based on ghengis Khan, then wed follow his behavior, but its not, its based on the SON OF GOD JESUS

i agree.. i dont want a christian theocracy, i never said i did... i dont know what you want me to engage you on

Quote:

Lastly, If you read the Bible, you perscribe to a Christian church then you are a Christian, the same as Muslim fanatics are Muslim. Neither Islam nor Christianity condone murder of innocents but both have enough violence in them to make it okay if you want to do it.


OK.. so why do athiests murder? theyre not christians..where are they getting this from? you are arguing about the bible, but you obviously havent fully comprehended its message. MAN has a sinful nature! every human being does... Jesus' words are supposed to help us to evolve past this nature, dont you see? if someone is still murdering people, or any other unethical behavior, then they obviously dont believe that Jesus exists, that God exists, and that their actions will be judged in the next life

Quote:

Religion fosters violence against non-believers, it's just the way it is, and arguing about "but in the Bible it says..." or "Jesus said..." is just non-logic because the Bible also says it's okay to kill people if they ain't Christian. The Bible is the word of the Christian religion, all of it, not just the bits you choose to look at because it fosters the view you like.


yah, just as religion fosters violence against believers aswell, as this entire website is evidence of.. yet who have you seen me personally attack, besides OCCULTISTS? no one.. yet you all have a problem with me because i am reinforcing Jesus' message which is LOVE ABOVE ALL ELSE

please, show me the parts that i am not accepting? i have accepted the entire message of the bible, i find that quite hypocritical, as it is you who does not believe any of it


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Friday, September 29, 2006 10:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


dbl.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 10:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

OK.. so lets say i say im a christian alright; yet everyday i go out into the world, i lie, cheat, steal decieve and descriminate...does that make me christian?? so what are you talking about when you say "christians this/ or that?" what im telling you is that i can say im christian, but if i dont follow its teachings does that truly make me christian??
Which teachings would those be? The ones that allow you to stone your wife?
Quote:

if christians are acting other than how Jesus' recommends, than why even bother defining christian, because it loses ALL OF ITS MEANING
Possibly the flaw is with the very foundation of your religion (the Bible) which includes so many ambiguities and self-contradictions that it is impossible to define "Christian". There are a lot of people who engage in wildly divergent behavior- from bigamy to celibacy, blood sacrifice to environmentalism, who can ALL point to SOME parts of "the Bible" which will fully justify their particular belief system. Are they wrong? Is the Bible wrong? Who decides?
Quote:

you are so hostile towards anyone of any fiath that it doesnt really even matter what belief i hold, but atleast i am willing to put it out there; what do you believe in?
I believe in relentlessly asking questions and testing the answers against sensible evidence.
Quote:

but the purpose of the LAW was to expose what behavior is sinful, so that an individual can correct it himself... your telling me i cant define what is sinful period; in which case the bible would be irrelevant
AHA! Now we're getting somewhere!

Guess what... the Bible WAS irrelevent to the Founding Fathers. The purpose of "the law" is to define what's LEGAL, not what is SINFUL. Since the FF managed to make that distinction I believe that you can too.
Quote:

intent is THEE point, for it the intent of JEsus' message that is indisputable.. your problems lie with individuals, which.. if you want to be like that, lets call the whole world out on their flaws.. it is not just christians friend; i could name PLENTY of tyrannous empires that were not christian. there is only one Jesus', and one way to interpret his word.. dont you get that? that is EXACTLY why Jesus said to be aware of false teachers and their destruction.
If I intend to do much good but I keep creating much harm, then not only do my intentions not count I would seem to be incapable of learning. The "intent" of MANY belief systems is good. Communism was going to get rid of injustice. Democracy as going to eliminate corruption. Jesus was going to eliminate hate. The public school systems was going to educate everybody.

The only way to reduce the power of belief systems to cause harm is to constantly check results against goals. Are we getting there? If not, what do we need to do differently? A system that doesn't take human imperfection into account is a stupid system. Doubly stupid if it CLAIMS to know that people are imperfect, gets derailed in major ways because of that imperfection, and then fails to get back on course as a routine matter.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:54 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Which teachings would those be? The ones that allow you to stone your wife?



that was the OT, which is a pretty accurate historical collection of documents; we know the world was no utopia 4000yrs ago... well history didnt record it that way either. first of all, God severely punished the Jews for their behavior; think of it as their carma if you will, for creating such institutionalized herecy; therefore Jesus was sent and established the NEW COVENANT, essentially supercedeeding the traditions of the old covenant. that is why Jesus' specific words and teachings are important

Quote:

Possibly the flaw is with the very foundation of your religion (the Bible) which includes so many ambiguities and self-contradictions that it is impossible to define "Christian". There are a lot of people who engage in wildly divergent behavior- from bigamy to celibacy, blood sacrifice to environmentalism, who can ALL point to SOME parts of "the Bible" which will fully justify their particular belief system. Are they wrong?


think about this from Gods perspective.. what is good? maybe its whatever balances itself equally with nature... my point is this: their are occult societies from the beginning of mankind who have purpetuated false doctrines among the beleivers, and frankly the whole world.. to literally bring mankind under a global government, global religion of the antichrist. this agenda, essentially a false reality.. was promoted by these secret societies, which are not JESUS christian, but are satanic.. that is why the NT constantly warns of diceptive doctrines and philosophies which would deny the truths of Jesus' and God the father, and create a false messiah or antichrist

Quote:

Is the Bible wrong? Who decides


well.. i dont know; but i ask myself, who benefits if the bible was just a clever tool to brainswash people? Jesus' message is far from fearmonger or fear inspiring.. we are not to covet money, wealth or material possessions.. i mean, this is why the world is in this mess in first place

Quote:

Guess what... the Bible WAS irrelevent to the Founding Fathers. The purpose of "the law" is to define what's LEGAL, not what is SINFUL. Since the FF managed to make that distinction I believe that you can too.


this has been my point all along; that many of our founders, and their principles, were influenced by idealogies(like the Masons/Illuminati etc) which are in-fact occultic. you are a knowledgeable guy, and i know you are familiar with the neocon NWO* plot because i agree wtih a majority of your postings in other threads. this is why i ask that you consider this information which has been uncovered, and how it ties into Americas occult destiny as prophesied in the bible
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/bloodlineintroduction.h
tm


Quote:

If I intend to do much good but I keep creating much harm, then not only do my intentions not count I would seem to be incapable of learning. The "intent" of MANY belief systems is good. Communism was going to get rid of injustice. Democracy as going to eliminate corruption. Jesus was going to eliminate hate. The public school systems was going to educate everybody.

The only way to reduce the power of belief systems to cause harm is to constantly check results against goals. Are we getting there? If not, what do we need to do differently? A system that doesn't take human imperfection into account is a stupid system. Doubly stupid if it CLAIMS to know that people are imperfect, gets derailed in major ways because of that imperfection, and then fails to get back on course as a routine matter.




i agree.. MY point being that an institutionalized christianity inherintly becomes occultic because it forges conflicts of interests with the world(which is controlled by lucifer). *this is why this NWO agenda is occultic, and not christian, and why the true message of the bible poses a threat and is an obsticle to its fruition

*edited spelling

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