The Republic of Virtue and Technocracy by nanite1018

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The Republic of Virtue and Technocracy

POSTED BY: NANITE1018
UPDATED: Thursday, August 10, 2023 14:25
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Sunday, September 10, 2006 12:56 PM

Hello everyone. This has two purposes, the first being to see if ANYONE has more information on the Republic of Virtue (Robespierre's ideas, one of his speeches was titled that i think). Can't find much, and wikipedia isn't much of a help. So if anyone has information, it's much appreciated. I read about it (some) in my history textbook, and just want more information. After that, probably a discussion about it.

The other is to discuss the idea of technocracy. I cannot make up my mind about it. Nor can i gather much information, particularly not on the ideas of H.G. Wells, Veblen, or Saint-Simon. Can't find any texts of their ideas anywhere, just a little smattering of the basic ideas and such. From what i can gather from wikipedia and web searches, technocracy is basically a meritocracy where technical experts govern and manage society. So i'd like some more info if anyone has some, it'd be much appreciated. In any case, it seems like it might work, and may be a pretty good system. But i'm not sure, partly because it's difficult to get detailed information.

thanks in advance!

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 5:58 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

The Republic of Virtue:
http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/virtue.html

Saint-Simonism is a 19th century socialist movement named after Claude Henri de Rouvroy, Count of Saint-Simon.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-simonisme

Thorstein Bunde Velben was a Norwegian-American Sociologist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen

H.G. Wells, of course, is well known. He was an avid socialist, like many intellectuals during the 19th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.G._Wells

I assume everyone is familiar with Wikipedia and know that the information on these sites must not be taken as the final word, but it might offer some degree of introduction to help the discussion along. I am quite unfamiliar with Technocracy. My impression is that it is a socialist movement that attempts to realize the goals of socialism, not through the standard class struggle, but through education and the advancement of science, specifically technology that will, presumably, replace the working classes, thereby (in theory) allowing everyone to rise out of the proletariat and into the bourgeoisie. And reading the above wikipedia sites seems to have reinforced my impression.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:00 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Robert Heinlein, the Science fiction author, has written several fiction pieces that touch on technocracy, most notably some of the short stories in The Past Thru Tomorrow

The only other suggestion is the low-tech option: find a *G*O*O*D* public library and read a bunch of books- biographies of Wells, Veblen, etc. Biographies of Robespierre or histories of the French Revolution would probably deal with the Republic of Virtue.

Probably have to mine thru tons of dross to find the nuggets of information you're seeking, tho'- probably take a long time...

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Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:03 PM

DREAMTROVE

Again, I have no sources because I studied this back during the actual enlightment. I have some gut feelings I remember about it:

1. It was a totally unattainable ideal because it relied on having "the perfect people." No one with vice was a member of the republic, they were exiled, cleansed, etc. which is why all the execusions.

2. Robespierre was completely unwilling to compromise, and when it became clear that his goal was impossible, he went insane.

On technocracy,

The potential problem with this system is one of ideas. The basic flow of ideas, dissent, difference of opinions, when put through a process with some sort of evolutionary controls, is what creates good ideas. Most technocrats operate as a brain trust. Think tanks ponder problems with their strong academic backgrounds, talk with their trusted friends, and all come up with solutions for the world from their version of reality. This tends to be extremely dangerous. The small warped perspective, without conflicting ideas, schemes and plans until it comes up with an untested 'solution' which it then puts into action.

This is essentially what created Bush/Clinton, which is to say Cheney et al.

I'd support a variation of this, but it would have to have some way to get ideas from the public, and some way to remove bad technocrats.

The other major snag in this idea is that it could lead to socialism. A healthy society effects change from within, through the behavior of its citizens, which guide a demand or need for change, which is then instituted. Most of what americans would call 'progress' has come through this process. Whether it's social progress such as civil rights, suffragettes, or scientific progress such as vaccines, alternative fuels, etc., the actions of citizens initiate and steer the course, and the govt. adds only a guiding hand to prevent citizen movements like the KKK from becoming the final change. In a system where decisions are made at a top level by people who by the systems own definition are "superior" to the general populous, the process could potentially degenerate into a top-down decision making process.

The basic flaw in top-down systems is not one that most people usually catch on, which is that no one has a monopoly of ideas. If one takes a look at progress in the soviet union vs. the united state, the trends become clear. At a certain point, the soviets were ahead of us technologically, but as the bureaucracy grew, and the power structure solidified, the top-down process started to take hold. Regional division heads lost the ability to make priority decisions regarding their own projects, whether they be electronics development, or medical research, and ultimately someone at the kremlin was making the choices. This problem led to some rather spectacular FUBARs such as Chernobyl, when a kremlin deputy official over-ruled the local power plant manager and ordered the #4 reactor, which had no cooling system, to fire up. The official knew nothing about nuclear power, and was unaware of the certainty of the result. There are actually quite a few stories like this, and they clearly increase over time. By the 1980s, the rampant chaos of the US had clearly defeated the socially engineered USSR in a race for the technological edge.

I suppose, in theory, you could have a corporatocracy, where corporations had shares in the govt., and paid to run it at a fixed rate.

Generally I think there should be some sort of meritocracy, but I'm no fan of academics or think tanks. Mainly I think the competition of ideas is necessary.

So, I guess my gut feeling is, it could be great, or a disaster, but it depends on the details. Without further design I think it would probably start out okay, and then degenerate into a top-down structure.

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Monday, September 11, 2006 6:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

An example of an actual technocracy would be the free software movement. Most contributions are made freely, their incorporation into the kernel depends on the say-so of the big kahunas or a distributed technical committee (for Debian distro.) Significant bragging rights go to the perspon whose code actually appears in the kernel.

I know this isn't exactly on-topic, but I was thinking about how to create a technocracy that is responsive to public need w/o putting politicians in charge, seeing as 85% or more of politicians are either actively corrupt or go-along-get-along types.

Regulatory agencies, school boards, special districts (water, sanitation, flood control etc.) and bureaus get into trouble when politicians are in charge because most politicans haven't the faintest clue what kind of service they're supposed to be delivering or (more importantly) how best to go about it. Public organizations are usually filled with teachers, engineers, scientists, doctors, nurses, accountants etc. who have boots-on-the ground experience that is subverted, wasted, or thwarted by politicians (like Villaraigosa in LA) who want to be seen as some kind of magician. Politicians, when they get involved at all, tend to create dramatic, sweeping, unrealistic sound-bite type "solutions" that usually interfere with sound planning and managment.

Since most public organizations are service organizations, it seems to me that the best way to handle them is to:

1) Define goals. Is the BLM supposed to conserve Federal forests or "get the cut out"? Are schools supposed to be teaching reading, writing, and 'rithmetic, instilling self-confidence, or simply acting in loco parentis?

2) Create a governing board from the employee roster. But because employees can become insular and unresponsive to the people, the governing board must stand for election and at least two proposed governing boards must be put forward.

3) Ensure quality control by creating uniform and intercomparable tests that are published. For schools, it would be a nationwide test. For public hospitals it would be patient outcomes (adjusted for severity of presenting illness for example.)

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Monday, September 11, 2006 6:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The usual.

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Monday, September 11, 2006 8:55 AM

CITIZEN

Technocracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_(bureaucratic)
Technocracy isn't socialism, nor a socialist movement.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, September 11, 2006 9:11 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This problem led to some rather spectacular FUBARs such as Chernobyl, when a kremlin deputy official over-ruled the local power plant manager and ordered the #4 reactor, which had no cooling system, to fire up. The official knew nothing about nuclear power, and was unaware of the certainty of the result.

Chernobyl was caused by a low power test, to see if they could safely shutdown the reactor without external electrical power. Turns out they couldn't.

The reactor was already running, it was being shutdown for maintenance.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, September 11, 2006 10:46 AM

DREAMTROVE

Citizen,

Didn't say it was, said it could develop into socialist-style top-down command structure without a careful design.

You may be right on chernobyl, just recalling the story from when it happened. I'm pretty sure I'm right about the bureaucratic detail.

Signym,

There's a disambiuity problem. Technocracy has been used in several instances to mean different things, I think this one was specifically called as a hg wells ref., which meant a rule of the competent. It doesn't really have anything to do with technology. The free software is not a meritocratic oligarchy, it's practically total anarchy.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:17 AM

NANITE1018

Yes, it is a reference to H.G. Wells style technocracy, or the sort referenced in the wikipedia article under "technocracy (bereaucratic)".

Anyone else have anything good? In terms of websites.

I personally think the Republic of Virtue is wonderful. And possible, but only under the right conditions. Although i disagree with the death penalty and the Terror, i agree with Robespierre's political ideals, at least as far as outlined in his speech about the republic of virtue.

As to technocracy, i really can't make up my mind. I do agree with meritocracy, and i think a world state would be a good thing, if done right. I just feel a little uneasy about the whole anti-democracy sentiment in Wells' ideas. I understand why he felt that way, since many people simply don't seem fit to have an equal say as others (i mean if you can't read, should you be able to vote? And if you are racist, homophobic, and want a theocracy, or wish to establish absolute totalitarian control and ruthlessly slaughter all who oppose you, should you get to vote? I mean, i realise there aren't many like that, but even normal people simply vote with their party nowadays, unthinking. idk).

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:18 PM

NANITE1018

bumperuski

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 2:54 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Citizen,

Didn't say it was, said it could develop into socialist-style top-down command structure without a careful design.

Never said you did, I was replying to Finn.

Quote:
You may be right on chernobyl, just recalling the story from when it happened. I'm pretty sure I'm right about the bureaucratic detail.

The technical details, the how it happened, I'm pretty sure are agreed upon. Why it happened is open to debate, and could just as easily be due to the technitions being unaware of the reactors inabillity to run it's own safety systems due to design flaws.

After all that was why the test was being run.

Food for thought though, you say that "government doesn't work, only private companies do" but your anti 'top down' organisations. What is more top down than a private company?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 4:52 PM

DREAMTROVE

citizen

companies aren't totally top down. they have shareholders, workers, and hopefully some input system. I don't think the corporation is the ultimate evolution of the multi-human entity. I think it's pretty seriously flawed. But it's the best thing we have at the moment. Hopefully at some point we'll evolve. At the moment, on average, corporations are operating at about 10% efficiency in terms of the number of hours worked vs. the number of hours of work in the direction of the ultimate net progress that is achieved. Govt. operates at about 1%.

The 50% system is probably out there somewhere, but it hasn't been invented yet. I suspect that that system has a better cross-hierarchy communication. Google is clocking in a lot better than 10%, and they have a very strong multi-level communication. It's a very bottom up structure. Our govt. has become appallingly top-down, but it doesn't have to be this way. In theory, ideas could come from local town hall meetings and filter up through the system, which is more or less what the founding fathers intended. H. Ross Perot ran on the platform of establishing a system for doing this. But what we have now in America is a think-tank system, where a group of elite party controllers, accountable to no one, and self-appointed oligarchs, who determine the political positions and agenda of both parties, and then it is employed in a top down manner. Who we choose on an individual level currently is having very little impact.

Sadly, though I'd like to see someone like Chuck Hagel (R) or Russ Feingold (D) the election of them to office would not probably incur enough change to save America from its disasterous economic paradigm.

People here think that they are losing jobs to India and Korea because of wage difference, but it's not true. Americans are making nothing these days. I just hired someone for $8/hr, but the resulting productivity will never pay for itself. American labor, it strikes me, is probably worth about $2/hr, in terms of the productivity it's creating. If I hired an indian, it would cost me about the same amount, but the resulting productivity would be many times higher. They're better educated, better trained, and work harder. This is the sad truth.

I think that americans have been neglecting the flaws in this society for too long. Our education system was known to be appallingly bad 30 years ago, and it's just gotten worse, the drug problem is totally out of control, and the economy has so many imbeded leaches that it's almost impossible for anything to function.

Those of us on the right and those on the left may have different approaches on what the change needs to be, but quite frankly, some change would be good. I'd like to see it a less top-downy change. I suspect that this would be privatization. But if anyone has any other ideas, I'm certainly going to listen.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2021 11:18 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Trump praised Nigerian president for decision to prohibit Twitter while expressing regret
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-ni
geria-twitter-ban-election-b1862432.html

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Monday, June 28, 2021 12:39 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Facebook’s Massive Global Censorship To Silence Vaccine Skeptics
https://www.technocracy.news/facebooks-massive-global-censorship-to-si
lence-vaccine-skeptics/
Kevin McCarthy Releases House GOP ‘Framework’ for Fighting Big Tech Censorship
https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2021/06/27/mccarthy-releases-house-gop-
framework-fighting-big-tech-censorship/

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Friday, October 8, 2021 9:12 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Trump Says Facebook, Twitter Must Let Him Post Immediately

https://www.law360.com/articles/1429200/trump-says-facebook-twitter-mu
st-let-him-post-immediately

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Friday, October 8, 2021 10:10 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Yes.

They must.

Democrats are on the wrong side of freedom and will be remembered for who they were in the history books.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Monday, November 8, 2021 2:36 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Donald Trump to launch social network after being banned by Twitter, Facebook and YouTube

https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/21/donald-trump-to-launch-social-netw
ork-after-being-banned-by-twitter-facebook-and-youtube

The Press That Banned Trump May Call to Reinstate His Social Media Accounts

https://townhall.com/columnists/bradslager/2021/11/04/the-press-that-b
anned-trump-may-call-to-reinstate-his-social-media-accounts-n2598590

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Monday, November 8, 2021 3:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

OK, so on re-reading my old post, I should have distinguished between "technocracy" (and its twin, "bureaucracy") v "meritocracy".

I like DT's post the best: Top-down decision-making was the downfall of the USSR. Too inflexible.

AFA a "republic of virtue": as long as there are people, there will be no such thing. People come in all flavors with all kinds of impulses. A society that depends on perfect people will never be achievable.

Some examples of societies trying to create "perfect people"

"The Terror"
Constant internecine religious wars which closely monitored which way you crossed yourself or whether you glanced at a graveyard on your way past
Hitler and his Aryan race
Stalin and his new Soviet Man (and Woman)
Mao and his Cultural Revolution

If ppl wonder whether some of those societies would have made the big jump between, say, monarchist France to a Republic, Tsarist Russia to socialism, or Imperial Confucian China to socialist China without these significant upheavals, I can say that society does change ... and change profoundly ... between generations. So change does come, only at a slower pace.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Saturday, July 2, 2022 8:00 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

New NY State bill: If you want to carry concealed, we'll need to see your social media accounts

https://hotair.com/allahpundit/2022/07/01/new-ny-bill-if-you-want-to-c
arry-concealed-well-need-to-see-your-social-media-accounts-n480274

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Monday, December 5, 2022 9:00 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Chris Christie's niece bites officers, injures 6, at NOLA airport

https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/chris-christies-niece-bites-off
icers-at-new-orleans-airport/article_592e7ee2-728d-11ed-9b91-9345a9dda9b2.html

Robespierre on virtue and terror (1794)

https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/robespierre-virtue-terror-17
94/

nerd global robot space man now owns twitter
–
who is Elon Musk?

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Tuesday, April 4, 2023 6:56 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Not really a fan of the Stoner Alcoholic type showing up on Joe Rogan show but there are been a few interesting clips showing up on Blogs and communities.win feeds

I think its a bit weird or controlled but sometimes Rogan has interesting audio and vid from his show

Quote:
Joe Rogan and Michael Shellenberger discuss the censorship-industrial complex, the Twitter Files, the Biden laptop, the Election Integrity Project, and the US government officials, contractors, and NGOs using disinformation and propaganda against the American people.

https://twitter.com/kanekoathegreat/status/1642986392547627008

"The seventh was an important day because that was when they started to rationalize this decision to de-platform Trump even though their own people inside had decided that he had not violated their terms of service. So they were sort of stuck making up a reason to de-platform him. That was an important theme; they kept changing the rules to do what they wanted to do...

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Monday, July 24, 2023 11:31 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Sophistry as Technocracy

https://counter-currents.com/2023/06/sophistry-as-technocracy/

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Thursday, August 10, 2023 2:25 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Just released -
14K pages of Moderna COVID-19 vaccine data related to adverse events.
https://twitter.com/Techno_Fog/status/1682157706986102784
Neurological disorders days after vaccination

Across the West, People Are Dying in Greater Numbers. Nobody Wants to Learn Why
https://www.unz.com/jcook/across-the-west-people-are-dying-in-greater-
numbers-nobody-wants-to-learn-why/

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