REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Despite what doom/gloomers say, economy roars on.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, March 19, 2023 13:18
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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 9:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


( Just more fuel for the economy which is on FIRE! )

U.S. Stocks Rise on Verizon Profit; S&P 500 Nears 5-Year High

May 2 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks rose as earnings from Verizon Communications Inc. exceeded analysts' forecasts, easing concern that higher interest rates may curb profit growth. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index reached an almost five-year high.

TXU Corp. led a rebound in utility shares as the largest Texas power producer said profit climbed on higher electricity prices. A drop in Treasury yields also boosted the group.

Emerson Electric Co., the world's biggest maker of power supplies for telecommunications systems, and Archer Daniels Midland Co., the No. 1 grain processor, joined Verizon in reporting results that topped Wall Street's expectations.

``We still keep seeing better-than-expected earnings,'' said Cummins Catherwood, who helps manage $800 million at Walnut Asset Management in Philadelphia. Companies such as Verizon and Emerson are ``posting some impressive stuff. That gives me encouragement about our economy.''

The S&P 500 added 7.46, or 0.6 percent, to 1312.65 at 2:18 p.m. in New York, the highest since May 21, 2001. The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose 74.76, or 0.7 percent, to 11,418.05. The Nasdaq Composite Index gained 5.70, or 0.3 percent, to 2310.49.

Stocks reached their highs in early afternoon trading as Treasury yields fell to their lows on the day and a gain in oil prices lifted energy shares.

Almost two stocks rose for every one that fell on the New York Stock Exchange. Some 1.14 billion shares changed hands on the Big Board, in line with the same time a week ago.

Exceeding Forecasts

Better-than-expected reports have lifted the earnings growth rate for S&P 500 companies in the first quarter to 14.1 percent, from 13.6 percent a week ago, according to Merrill Lynch & Co. chief market analyst Mary Ann Bartels.

Stocks made up most of their declines from a day ago, when remarks attributed to Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke suggested the central bank may not pause its series of 15 straight interest rate increases soon.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 12:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


It would seem that good news isn't what 'some' folks want to hear.

Gee, I wonder why?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 1:03 AM

CITIZEN


Because there's nothing really here to discuss, gee I wonder why?

So how's that biggest rich/poor gap of any developed nation coming? All good! Excellent, good luck with that, cause everythings fine, after all.

It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.

Gee, I wonder why?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 5:23 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
So how's that biggest rich/poor gap of any developed nation coming?


Good thanks. How's the effort to push us into the slavery of godless communism going for you?

H

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 5:31 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:


It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.


"Everyone on my block has two jobs, and they're in debt, and can't fix their cars, or go to the dentist, but I just got a raise and a new SUV, so that means my block is full of poor sods that just don't WANT to be prosperous, like me."

This must be the thinking here, Citizen.

Chrisisall, basking in the wonderfull multi-national corporate profits

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 5:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
So how's that biggest rich/poor gap of any developed nation coming?


Good thanks. How's the effort to push us into the slavery of godless communism going for you?

H

PirateHero, how nice of you to post...

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 5:34 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
How's the effort to push us into the slavery of godless communism going for you?


The same as your effort to assasinate the president leaving your path clear to create a Corporate Lawocracy with you at it's head as supreme Lawyer/Dictator.

Why?

Come-on, if you're going to expose my British-Commie-Nazi-Alien-Jew plans don't think I'm not going to expose yours.

Not good behaviour considering we're bank rolling you. Let's keep these discussions to the sex orgies in bohemian grove yeah, that's what they're for.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 6:17 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


Not sure where you are seeing the good news exactly.

That stocks, and secific stocks at that, are doing well, is not relevant to average cost of living versus average income in this nation.

Sure, big companies are doing well. companies are getting extremely efficient at cutting costs, and our government has only their interests at heart. Deregulation is destroying our beloved capitalism, and soo much of this is happening under this congress.

Clinton shouldn't be given a pass on this either. Signing the bill(I'm sure it was republican, but there's little difference between many democrats and republicans on such issues) to allow media deregulation to the extent it has been, was just about the worst thing a President could have done in my opinion

Explain to me why, in your informed opinion, more wealth being consolidated into the largest companies, making it harder for smaller businesses to find a market, making it harder for people to find employers competing for their work, is good.

Explain to me what your numbers show about the health of the middle class in this country.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 6:35 AM

STORYMARK


You folks are missing the point. The Republicans say the economy is strong, so it is. End of story. Now do as you're told and shut the hell up.

Though, from this Admin's point of view, the economy is strong. Oil companies are raking it in, the rich are getting richer, and to hell with anyone without a yacht.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 8:01 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
The same as your effort to assasinate the president leaving your path clear to create a Corporate Lawocracy with you at it's head as supreme Lawyer/Dictator.



At least everyone will have their day in court. Nobody decides 'not to sue'. No limits on award...or fees. Death penalty for all along with unlimited mandatory appeals.

Imagine a world were you take your lawyer with you to the hospital to consult with the hospital's lawyer on whether or not to treat your broken leg and if an agreement is reached then the two of them open negotiations with the Doctor's lawyer, a representative of the nurse's association and the Court of Medical Claims. Assuming it passes the Court's mandatory arbitration (with or without a hearing and appeals) you may or may not be approved to receive a visit from a doctor so long as the paperwork is all filed correctly and a suitable period of review and comment has passed with no objection from local special interest organizations after two announced public hearings and an opportunity for objections to be filed.

In my world ignorance of the law would not just be no excuse...it would be fatal.

H

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 8:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Hero, for outstanding service, I believe you deserve a reward:
http://filmstripinternational.com/

You're welcome.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 8:41 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
At least everyone will have their day in court. Nobody decides 'not to sue'. No limits on award...or fees. Death penalty for all along with unlimited mandatory appeals.

Imagine a world were you take your lawyer with you to the hospital to consult with the hospital's lawyer on whether or not to treat your broken leg and if an agreement is reached then the two of them open negotiations with the Doctor's lawyer, a representative of the nurse's association and the Court of Medical Claims. Assuming it passes the Court's mandatory arbitration (with or without a hearing and appeals) you may or may not be approved to receive a visit from a doctor so long as the paperwork is all filed correctly and a suitable period of review and comment has passed with no objection from local special interest organizations after two announced public hearings and an opportunity for objections to be filed.

In my world ignorance of the law would not just be no excuse...it would be fatal.


No class system what-so-ever, instead your social standing will depend on employment, with the lower rungs filled with the unemployed and those in menial labour.

You don't go out for a drink without the appropriate prepared forms, each drink requires you to sign several forms, under the supervision of your and the bartenders lawyers.

Trying to defend ones-self (especially if you run an on-line 'pseudo' news site) carries the penalty of death, by rampant wildebeest.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 8:47 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.

Gee, I wonder why?

Because good news is good, and we don’t hear enough of it. Someone really shouldn’t have to explain to you why people like to hear good news. On the other hand, the real question is why are some people so desperate to hear bad news?

Part of the reason is that anti-capitalists don’t want to hear about a capitalist economy doing well so that they can continue convincing themselves that capitalism doesn’t work.

Part of the reason is that anti-Bush types don't want to hear about the economy doing well because a strong economy will reflect well on Bush, as per historical precedent.

You combine the two and you’ve got a pretty strong ideological desire to perpetuate the doom and gloom among certain people despite a strong economy.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:18 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.

Gee, I wonder why?

Because good news is good, and we don’t hear enough of it. Someone really shouldn’t have to explain to you why people like to hear good news. On the other hand, the real question is why are some people so desperate to hear bad news?

Part of the reason is that anti-capitalists don’t want to hear about a capitalist economy doing well so that they can continue convincing themselves that capitalism doesn’t work.

Part of the reason is that anti-Bush types don't want to hear about the economy doing well because a strong economy will reflect well on Bush, as per historical precedent.

You combine the two and you’ve got a pretty strong ideological desire to perpetuate the doom and gloom among certain people despite a strong economy.




I'd say that there is a bit of a difference between "desperate to hear bad news" and acknowleging that things aren't quite as hunky-dorey as the Administration wants us to believe.

And is it so hard to believe that there are people who are rather fond of capitalism, that just don't happen like the way things are being run? Or is it just easier to label anyone who disagrees with Bush (a group getting larger by the day) as pinko commies?

And I notice that none of those posters on this thread supporting how "strong" the economy is have addressed the class-gap and struggling middle-class issues raised above. Very telling.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:20 AM

CITIZEN


Yep that's it. You're absolutely right Finn, the only reason anyone has an opinion different to yours is because they're anti-capitalists and anti-bush and can't handle being wrong.

Maybe they're communist snivelling evil terrorists who are too liberal to stand up for them selves and are ultra violent too. I don't know, do you?

Please note I was replying to AURaptor, who wouldn't see anything bad or wrong if Bush was caught murdering Children. So spare me the "the other side is blind/biased" argument please.




More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:35 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:


Part of the reason is that anti-capitalists don’t want to hear about a capitalist economy doing well so that they can continue convincing themselves that capitalism doesn’t work.


Finn, I hear tell that you enjoy a good beer on occasion (as long as it ain't cold-piss-like), but would you drink that fine brew to the point of alcohol poisoning?
I don't necessarly see a lot of anti-capitalism here, what I see is anti-extremism. Capitalism, like Communism, taken to an extreme is oppressive. Extreme Capitalism (Corporatism) just means you can have a nicer TV to watch your owners tell you what to buy.
Capitalism, when combined with other, balancing ideals, works. Balancing is the trick.

Capitalism is like kicking *Uh-oh, he's going for the inevitable martial arts metaphore*, I used to be about the best kicker in my Karate school, but then I faced a guy the had way superior hand work, and got my arse handed to me. So I had to incorporate other (balancing) ideads into my personal style; a strength depended upon solely becomes a weakness.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Because there's nothing really here to discuss, gee I wonder why?

So how's that biggest rich/poor gap of any developed nation coming? All good! Excellent, good luck with that, cause everythings fine, after all.

It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.

Gee, I wonder why?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.



There's room for anyone up at the top. There's not room for EVERYONE. Maybe if the US controlled its borders and regulated who comes in like European countries do, we'd have an even better economy.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:16 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's room for anyone up at the top. There's not room for EVERYONE. Maybe if the US controlled its borders and regulated who comes in like European countries do, we'd have an even better economy.


Do you have a point or... ?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Oh, and this being reported today as well.

" US economic reports have underlined the strength of the world's biggest economy, suggesting that interest rates may well keep rising.

The Institute for Supply Management said that its services index rose to a higher-than-expected 63 in April.

A separate Commerce Department report showed that factory orders had their biggest gain for 10 months in March.

Many analysts are now predicting that the US Federal Reserve will keep hiking interest rates to rein in inflation.

"The economic numbers continue to come in very strong," said Mary Ann Hurly, a trader at DA Davidson.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4969898.stm

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:26 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn, I hear tell that you enjoy a good beer on occasion (as long as it ain't cold-piss-like), but would you drink that fine brew to the point of alcohol poisoning?
I don't necessarly see a lot of anti-capitalism here, what I see is anti-extremism. Capitalism, like Communism, taken to an extreme is oppressive. Extreme Capitalism (Corporatism) just means you can have a nicer TV to watch your owners tell you what to buy.
Capitalism, when combined with other, balancing ideals, works. Balancing is the trick.

That’s an anti-capitalist argument. The reason is because the US is not an extreme oppressive capitalist state. And if you look at the good economy in the US and all you see is “evil,” “oppressive” capitalism, then you are not seeing the truth. If you don’t have the perspective to see the good, then you analysis of the “bad” is probably flawed to.
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Capitalism is like kicking *Uh-oh, he's going for the inevitable martial arts metaphore*, I used to be about the best kicker in my Karate school, but then I faced a guy the had way superior hand work, and got my arse handed to me. So I had to incorporate other (balancing) ideads into my personal style; a strength depended upon solely becomes a weakness.

I had a friend in college from China. Actually he was fresh off the boat, barely spoke English. We struck up a deal together. I would help him learn English, teach him to drive a car and basically help him assimilate into American culture, and in return he would teach me taichi. He was a kungfu master, believe it or not. I really didn’t even know there was such a thing as a kungfu master before I met him, as far as I knew it was just something that I saw on tv. But he was and I study taichi from him for three years. Now three years isn’t really long enough to learn much taichi, but one thing that I did take away from that experience was that taichi, and kungfu in general, are very psychological, and it was a very holistic concept. Much more then a physical exercise, taichi was mental discipline for achieving your goals.

He was an impressive guy for much more then just his kungfu. He came to this country to escape religious persecution under the Chinese government. He worked harder then most people I’ve known and had a better head on his shoulders too. The glass was always half full. He loved the US. This was a guy who knew what real persecution and real extremism was, and he did not take the freedoms that he found in this country for granted. He believed that freedom was about seeking your goals and being free to do that. This was a guy who understood, first hand, that when you try to take way the class struggle, you take away the freedom.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's room for anyone up at the top. There's not room for EVERYONE. Maybe if the US controlled its borders and regulated who comes in like European countries do, we'd have an even better economy.


Do you have a point or... ?



Just that when it comes to wealth, not everyone is equal, nor does everyone have the same interest or drive to succeed. It's called 'freedom'. Folks can come here from a different country, not know the language, work hard and make pretty much what they want out of their lives... OR , they an sit around, do nothing, and blame everyone and everything under the sun for life's inequities. That would be the point.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:39 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's room for anyone up at the top. There's not room for EVERYONE. Maybe if the US controlled its borders and regulated who comes in like European countries do, we'd have an even better economy.


Do you have a point or... ?



Just that when it comes to wealth, not everyone is equal, nor does everyone have the same interest or drive to succeed. It's called 'freedom'. Folks can come here from a different country, not know the language, work hard and make pretty much what they want out of their lives... OR , they an sit around, do nothing, and blame everyone and everything under the sun for life's inequities. That would be the point.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



It's one thing to say we can't all be equal - to which I'd agree. But sometimes the degree of inequality swells to a destructive point.

Or maybe you're hoping the world returns to feudalism.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just that when it comes to wealth, not everyone is equal, nor does everyone have the same interest or drive to succeed. It's called 'freedom'. Folks can come here from a different country, not know the language, work hard and make pretty much what they want out of their lives... OR , they an sit around, do nothing, and blame everyone and everything under the sun for life's inequities. That would be the point.


Ahh, so it's nothing to do with the system or with America having the worst social mobility (which basically means people succeed or fail based on social standing, not merit ) of any developed nation (worse than the UK's and ours is pretty terrible), it's the immigrants that are at fault, gotcha.

Fairly predictable response really.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:56 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I'd say that there is a bit of a difference between "desperate to hear bad news" and acknowleging that things aren't quite as hunky-dorey as the Administration wants us to believe.

The stock market is not the Bush Administration. They’re two different things.
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And is it so hard to believe that there are people who are rather fond of capitalism, that just don't happen like the way things are being run? Or is it just easier to label anyone who disagrees with Bush (a group getting larger by the day) as pinko commies?

You’re the one using the label “pinko commies,” you tell me?
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And I notice that none of those posters on this thread supporting how "strong" the economy is have addressed the class-gap and struggling middle-class issues raised above. Very telling.

Maybe. Or they might just be responding to the topic of the thread, which is not the class-gap. There are differences of opinion here.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 11:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just that when it comes to wealth, not everyone is equal, nor does everyone have the same interest or drive to succeed. It's called 'freedom'. Folks can come here from a different country, not know the language, work hard and make pretty much what they want out of their lives... OR , they an sit around, do nothing, and blame everyone and everything under the sun for life's inequities. That would be the point.


Ahh, so it's nothing to do with the system or with America having the worst social mobility (which basically means people succeed or fail based on social standing, not merit ) of any developed nation (worse than the UK's and ours is pretty terrible), it's the immigrants that are at fault, gotcha.

Fairly predictable response really.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.



I'd like for you to back up your claim about 'worst social mobility'. And if you read my post, I didn't lay any fault on the immigrants, only those who are ILLEGALLY here. There IS a difference.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 11:48 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Um, speaking as a total outsider here, just want to add my two cents to the godless communism thing.

Ireland is a welfare state. Which means that we have state benefits, free healthcare and free education (up to and including university - to a point anyway.)

We also have an economy. Which is booming very nicely. And businesses. That sell things. Especially services, as the service sector is huge in Ireland. This despite the fact that we have extremely active unions which, unbelievably, don't cripple the country with unreasonable demands! Or not all the time anyway

There's another welfare state quite nearby. A little place called The United Kingdom. You may have heard of it. (Didn't you notice that Tony Blaire is leader of the LABOUR Party?)

Despite these terrible socialist leanings of ours, Ireland is still a Catholic country. And likely to remain so at least for the near future. (Catholic and non-Catholic Irish are free to argue this point.)

Is it all sunshine and roses? Heck, no! Are there downsides to our system of government? You betcha. Does it cripple our country financially, deny us religious freedoms and place a stranglehold on business? Um, no.

It may be because most of the Americans I meet are online, but you seen to have this black and white view of Capitalism vs Socialism/Communism. One is good and the other is bad. It doesn't work that way, except in the extremes of both societies. There are many varying levels of each, and since they both have their good points why not just take those and dump the downside? Don't reject either one out of hand.

That's the point I wanted to make. With many more words than I had planned. Feel free to flame me if you wish. Actually, I have to sign off now, so you can pretty much roast, barbacue and fry to your heart's content

Desktop Hippie: at one with the 'verse

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 11:54 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


1929 anyone?

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 12:08 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
And if you read my post, I didn't lay any fault on the immigrants, only those who are ILLEGALLY here.


You said:
Quote:

Folks can come here from a different country

People who come from other countries are Immigrants, you never specified they had to be illegal, just from another country. You never said anything about them being illegal and if you had I would have said:
it's all the fault of the illegal immigrants, gotcha.
Quote:

I'd like for you to back up your claim about 'worst social mobility'.

Hey now, that's a little unfair of you to ask people to back up their claims, but here you go:
Quote:

Social mobility lower in US and Britain than in other advanced countries
...
Even so, the US has the worst record for social mobility. As the authors point out, although the notion that the US is “the land of opportunity” still persists, such a belief is misplaced.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/may2005/mobi-m25.shtml
Quote:

Children born to poor families in Britain are less likely to fulfil their potential than in other developed countries, according to a report published today.
...
The report focused on how education affected the life chances of British children compared with those in other countries. It put the UK and the US at the bottom of a social mobility league table of eight European and North American countries, with Norway at the top followed by Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany and Canada.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1469685,00.html



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 1:40 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And is it so hard to believe that there are people who are rather fond of capitalism, that just don't happen like the way things are being run? Or is it just easier to label anyone who disagrees with Bush (a group getting larger by the day) as pinko commies?

You’re the one using the label “pinko commies,” you tell me?


Now you're being fey. You implied it with your capatilism-hater's line.



Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And I notice that none of those posters on this thread supporting how "strong" the economy is have addressed the class-gap and struggling middle-class issues raised above. Very telling.

Maybe. Or they might just be responding to the topic of the thread, which is not the class-gap. There are differences of opinion here.



The class-gap is tied to economic factors, and grows wider due to this country's economic practices. Don't act like it's not an element of the topic just because you don't have an answer.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 1:53 PM

STORYMARK


Oh, just noticed this little chunk of hypocricy:

Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I'd say that there is a bit of a difference between "desperate to hear bad news" and acknowleging that things aren't quite as hunky-dorey as the Administration wants us to believe.

The stock market is not the Bush Administration. They’re two different things.



Really? So, it's not acceptable in this thread to tie the economy to the administration?


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Part of the reason is that anti-Bush types don't want to hear about the economy doing well because a strong economy will reflect well on Bush, as per historical precedent.



Or is it just not acceptable to do it if we don't agree with you?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 2:40 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I heard a good name for the adminitration - it was called the 'kleptocracy'.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 2:56 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Now you're being fey. You implied it with your capatilism-hater's line.

I don’t generally, nor did I this time, use terms like “pinko-commie” or even capitalism-hater. I do however recognize broad differences of opinion on the issue of capitalism (the anti-capitalist argument and the pro-capitalist argument).
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
The class-gap is tied to economic factors, and grows wider due to this country's economic practices. Don't act like it's not an element of the topic just because you don't have an answer.

Which is the anti-capitalist argument. And whether or not it is an element of the topic, it is not the only element, nor is it the principle element. The principle element of the topic is that the economy is improving, which is good news, though people who are voicing the anti-capitalist argument, didn’t even give the principle element of this topic a nod. Anti-capitalists don’t want to admit when the economy is doing well.
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Really? So, it's not acceptable in this thread to tie the economy to the administration?

It’s not the administration in AURaptors original post that is saying things are "hunky-dorey". It’s the S&P500. So if you would like "to tie the economy to the administration," then you go right ahead, but all you’re doing is implying that the administration is improving the economy, according to S&P numbers. Is that what you mean to say?



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 3:32 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Just Curious


If the US economy is roaring...

why is the US dollar tanking in comparison to the Euro, the British pound, the Canadian dollar, etc

http://www.x-rates.com/d/USD/GBP/hist2006.html

not an economics guy myself, just seems weird



" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 3:34 PM

REAVERMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn, I hear tell that you enjoy a good beer on occasion (as long as it ain't cold-piss-like), but would you drink that fine brew to the point of alcohol poisoning?
I don't necessarly see a lot of anti-capitalism here, what I see is anti-extremism. Capitalism, like Communism, taken to an extreme is oppressive. Extreme Capitalism (Corporatism) just means you can have a nicer TV to watch your owners tell you what to buy.
Capitalism, when combined with other, balancing ideals, works. Balancing is the trick.

That’s an anti-capitalist argument. The reason is because the US is not an extreme oppressive capitalist state. And if you look at the good economy in the US and all you see is “evil,” “oppressive” capitalism, then you are not seeing the truth. If you don’t have the perspective to see the good, then you analysis of the “bad” is probably flawed to.



He never said the U.S. is an "extreme opressive capitalist state. Do you actually think before you post? We aren't even 100% capitalist, because people a hell of a lot smarter than you decided a long time ago that we needed balance to survive economically. If we went too capitalist, you end up with corporations doing pretty much whatever they want. Too Socialist, and you'd have the same slow economy that was the Soviets' primary disadvantage in the cold war. You ever been to a public school? That is a socialist institution. Social security? Also socialist. Trade unions? Socialist. Minimum wage laws? Socialist. Welfare? Socialist. Regulations on corporate activity? Socialist.

You fail to understand that nothing is black and white. Not culture, not politics, and definitely not economics.

Crisisall wasn't being "anti-capitalist", he was being intelligent. You should try it sometime.

P.S. Okay, I can see why you might think the economy is doing well. But why dont you factor in the $9 TRILLION that we owe the rest of the world? Or, as others have mentioned, the widening social gap? Or (also previously mentioned) the relatively little social mobility in this country? The economy still lookin' peachy to you? 'Cause it sure as hell ain't to me.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 4:29 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
if you look at the good economy in the US and all you see is “evil,” “oppressive” capitalism, then you are not seeing the truth. If you don’t have the perspective to see the good, then you analysis of the “bad” is probably flawed to.


You're correct about being able to see the good and bad for clear analysis. I was focusing on what I perceive as problems, this is a great country, with a solid economic structure (could be improved, but it works)- it's the politics tied to and controling the economy I disapprove of and find suspect. Our (quasi-) Capitalist society allowed for the jobs I've had, and the nice computer I'm typing on right now.
Quote:



This was a guy who knew what real persecution and real extremism was, and he did not take the freedoms that he found in this country for granted. This was a guy who understood, first hand, that when you try to take way the class struggle, you take away the freedom.


Thanks for the story, it was cool.
But just because the Chinese government sucks big time, that's no excuse for not noticing instances where we as a country seem to drift in that direction, as small as the increments might be, because our freedoms at this time are so much grander. Class struggle is one thing, class oppression is another, and it seems to me we might be on the verge of a terrible shift in human value here. Of course, things might swing back in the direction of truth and virtue, always in motion is the future, it's not like we're damned or anything, but like all else it won't be easy. Like they say in China, it will be 'interesting'.

OCP does not rule this country, and I want to make sure it never does. I also am no frog; I notice the when the pan gets hotter.

BTW, still do Tai Chi? It is the ultimate martial art.

Chrisisall, anti-evil corruptor of any system

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Thursday, May 4, 2006 12:14 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Which is the anti-capitalist argument. And whether or not it is an element of the topic, it is not the only element, nor is it the principle element. The principle element of the topic is that the economy is improving, which is good news, though people who are voicing the anti-capitalist argument, didn’t even give the principle element of this topic a nod. Anti-capitalists don’t want to admit when the economy is doing well.


It works both ways Finn. I could easilly say your not prepared to deal with anything that goes counter to the pro-capitalist argument. If the economy is all it's cracked up to be you should have no problem addressing the points raised.

AURaptor has, it's all the fault of the illegals, those bastards ruin everything don't they?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Thursday, May 4, 2006 6:16 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



It's actually a fallacy to suggest that wanting to stop the effects of corporate greed and government collusion is anti-capitalistic. It's just plain incorrect to suggest that wanting regulation in business is against the free market.

It's the only thing in the world that can save the free market. I love capitalism. I love the significance of competition. But if you haven't been paying attention, which just might be the case if you've been watching Fox News, the reality is that every time we deregulate a market further, that markets competition shrinks.

The reality is that these huge companies have so much access to our government that they get to go after their competition for using 'vicious' business practices like something as simple as saying 'our milk doesn't have this chemical in it."

so powerful that the legislation for auto-companies giving incentives on hybrid cars is taken away if they produce too many.

so powerful that the credit card companies get to write the bankruptcy bills that our congress passes into law.

So connected that they get no-bid contracts in Iraq(and Louisiana), and so far have not had to account for their overcharges and/or sheer bad faith, such as giving the troops contaminated water.

Does any of that sound like it fosters capitalism to you?

If you have faith in the system, then protect it already. Put money into social programs so that more people can start from a place where they can venture into entrepraneurships, make the government look out for the little guy.

that's always the argument for no minimum wage increase right? it's gonna hurt the little guy? Hell, lets make some laws that say companies employing a certain amount of workers are responsible for a higher mean wage, since they are already responsible for killing competition in their areas. Big companies are so homogenous in their operations that they can do away with regions and regions of skilled employees.

Why should they be continually rewarded for doing damage to the system that we hold so dear?

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Thursday, May 4, 2006 9:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Because good news is good, and we don’t hear enough of it.
Hey, I just heard that fifty more people in Iraq were bombed to death!! That's GREAT news!!! YAAAY Oh, yeah... if you're an insurgent. The point Finn is: good news for whom? For the rich- great news! For the rest of us- not so much.
Quote:

Part of the reason is that anti-capitalists don’t want to hear about a capitalist economy doing well so that they can continue convincing themselves that capitalism doesn’t work.
Capitalism requires competition with all parties more or less equal in power*: consumers having the ability to walk away from one store to the next, workers having the ability walk away from one job to another, and owners having the ability to pick and choose among workers and fight over market share. But since small imbalances in power tend to snowball into great big ugly monopolies unless restrained, we don't have capitalism any more. What we have is a system where not only do the great corporations have oligopolic control over their economic spheres, they also have control over the law through campaign contributions, lobbying, and that wonderful revolving door that is this nation's capital.

IF we had capitalism I'd say "Hell yeah!" But we don't.

* Wealth of Nations Adam Smith. You might have heard of it. Then again- mebbe not.
---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Thursday, May 4, 2006 9:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I would help him learn English, teach him to drive a car and basically help him assimilate into American culture, and in return he would teach me taichi. He was a kungfu master, believe it or not. I really didn’t even know there was such a thing as a kungfu master before I met him, as far as I knew it was just something that I saw on tv. But he was and I study taichi from him for three years
THIS is capitalism. THIS is free enterprise. Enron, Exxon-Mobil, Halliburton (hangin' from the spurting gummint teat) is not capitalism.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:58 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Class struggle is one thing, class oppression is another, and it seems to me we might be on the verge of a terrible shift in human value here. Of course, things might swing back in the direction of truth and virtue, always in motion is the future, it's not like we're damned or anything, but like all else it won't be easy. Like they say in China, it will be 'interesting'.

Well, I’m going to go into one of my big long verbose rants here, because I was in Washington last week and I’m going to Albuquerque on Monday so I won’t have time to really get into all this at length. I’m just going to dump it all on you now and sort it out later.

I don’t think the US is teetering on the edge of the Dark Side. The truth is that this is an old argument. I don’t know when it began, but I know Karl Marx was fond of predicting the collapse of America. Marx believed that eventually the rich would become so rich and the poor would become so poor in America that the poor masses would rise up and take power in the so-called Communist Revolution. It didn’t collapse, and Marx is long dead.

The truth is that while there are many flaws with the American system, as there are with any system, it works. The poor masses will not rise up because, in reality, they don’t exist. By most people’s understanding of what “poor” means there are very few such people in the US. Only a fraction of America’s ~36 million “poor” meet the criteria of actually being poor as Marx, or even the common person today, would understood it. So while the rich did get richer, the poor didn’t get poorer. People who are oppose to the American system have paraded all kinds of statistics to show that the poor are getting poorer, and they’ve been doing this for years, and I’m sure they’ll continue to do it, but in the end, the poor in America are living much better lives then they lived 50 or even 30 years ago and much better lives then the bulk of the world poor. What I have just told you is considered blasphemy among Socialists.

Marx saw what he wanted to see, but the fundamental concept of his reasoning is still true. A capitalist economy earns wealth largely, not from labor, but investment in capital. Poor people who are unable to invest in capital, either through entrepreneurship or indirectly through savings and stocks, will not be able to take the fastest path to wealth, and are less advantaged then the rich who can do this easily. That doesn’t mean they are stuck there. Labor can lead to wealth as it has for many people who are willing to start low and work hard. It just sometimes takes longer then investment. For those that don’t want to wait, education can catapult people way up the scale (that was my method). Privatization of social security would provide poor Americans with immediate investment, which I supported, but unfortunately, it failed. For most people social mobility is an exponential curve and you spend a long time at the bottom, until it finally turns up. It is something that is usually measured in generations, not individuals. I hope that for many American families who have been working hard to gain their momentum, the American system will still be there for them when the curve turns up.

As for other developed nations, there are pro’s can con’s to all them. Before the tumultuous years of the first half of the 20th centuries many of these countries, particularly Britain, France and Germany, represented some of the major powers of world. It’s only natural that they should reclaim their position as economic powerhouses, and I’m glad to see them do it. The Nordic countries are often praised by the Left for being working examples of socialism, but they are small economies with little defense budget and large oil reserves, and they have their pro’s and con’s as well. Slow growth is a problem for the Nordic countries, but still under good governmental management the Nordic states have relatively low corruption and strong competitive economies.

But just because certain economic systems work well in Norway doesn’t mean it will work well in the US. In the long-run, the economies of the developed world are shaped more by democratic and cultural pressures then by aristocratic pressures. I think Americans would find the heavily centralized and rigid authority of the Nordic states very overbearing. The truth is that few Americans, even poor Americans, would be willing to give up their big houses and the big cars for the heavily regulated European lifestyle and $6.00 per gallon gas. Now we might be willing to do that someday and some might argue that we should, but we aren’t going to do it today, and that doesn’t mean are system is collapsing or that our economy is poor.
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
BTW, still do Tai Chi? It is the ultimate martial art.

In the mornings before I work out I do taichi to stretch. But I’m not an expert, I actually know very little. The slow callisthenic motion of taichi is designed to teach muscle memory, but it takes a long time before that memory is strong enough that it translates into actual martial art, until then its just aerobics, I guess.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 6:07 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Citizen:
It works both ways Finn. I could easilly say your not prepared to deal with anything that goes counter to the pro-capitalist argument. If the economy is all it's cracked up to be you should have no problem addressing the points raised.

That’s not what it means to work both ways, that’s what it means to work your way. The economy is doing very well. You are choosing to ignore that and focus instead on what you feel are flaws, because you don’t like the American system and don’t want to admit that it is doing well. And now you want me to consider your points.

I don’t deny that the US system is flawed, all economic systems are flawed. I just deny that these flaws define the system. You are pointing to what other economies are doing as if this somehow makes the US a failure, but the US economy is the strongest in the world and even if the economy wasn’t doing well, most Americans would still have little reason to complain, given the state of the world in general.

And as far as these other economies doing well, good! I’m happy for European countries that have found their own version of the “American” dream, if that is indeed what it is. If some Europeans are able to climb up the ladder of success, why would you think that would bother me; that’s precisely what I like to see. So I don’t really understand why you would think I am so petty that I would get into this pissing contest with you over US allies.

Also who decided that all these new people with their hate Finn and hate Citizen ‘tudes could come on this board? I don’t remember signing up for that.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 7:40 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Also who decided that all these new people with their hate Finn and hate Citizen ‘tudes could come on this board? I don’t remember signing up for that.



I for one do not hate you or Citizen, I just hate all the morons who disagree with me

And for those of you without senses of humor, I am kidding.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 8:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:


Also who decided that all these new people with their hate Finn and hate Citizen ‘tudes could come on this board? I don’t remember signing up for that.


Ignore them, we're sharing viewpoints here, something I'm grateful for.

Tai Chi has THE BEST non-grappling throws Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 10:07 AM

RIGHTEOUS9




That's all very interesting stuff Finn,

Would you accept that perchance, some of the forces that pushed against Marx's doom and gloom depiction of Capitalism were social movements in the U.S.? Maybe Kennedy, FDR, LBJ, had an impact in this way, along with judges such as Warren?

Maybe if we ignored or laughed at such major concerns about the possible damages of unregulated capitalism instead of taking them seriously, this country wouldn't look the same today as it does. Maybe these are the reasons our poor aren't as impoverished as they are in 3rd world countries? You can't rail against social programs(and I"m not saying you are), and at the same time cite how much better our impoverished are doing here than in other countries. They may just be related.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 11:37 AM

FLETCH2


If you look at the industrial societies that existed in Marx's time they were increadibly brutal and one sided. That they didn't evolve the way he thought they might is a good thing. This is one case where I am happy someone got it wrong.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 12:16 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s not what it means to work both ways, that’s what it means to work your way. The economy is doing very well. You are choosing to ignore that and focus instead on what you feel are flaws, because you don’t like the American system and don’t want to admit that it is doing well.


Well yes it is. You want to focus on the American economy being the best (which I could argue is not entirely, if at all, down to the 'American system') while ignoring the flaws. You say I don't recognise the good and focus on the bad, well you seem to focus on the good and don't recognise the bad, that's the polar opposite viewpoint. If you want too say the only reason I hold my view is because I'm an 'Anti-Capitalist' fine, but be prepared for me to say the only reason you hold your view is because your a 'pro-Capitalist'.

That's what I was getting at, that maybe I saw things the way I do because I think there's more to a good economy than having the most money, not because I'm 'Anti-American'.
Quote:

And now you want me to consider your points.

Why not? I don't see that having the largest gap between rich and poor and the lowest social mobility of any industrialised nation as a good thing despite how much money you make as a whole.
Quote:

So I don’t really understand why you would think I am so petty that I would get into this pissing contest with you over US allies.

Huh? I think your thinking of someone else entirely here.
Quote:

Also who decided that all these new people with their hate Finn and hate Citizen ‘tudes could come on this board? I don’t remember signing up for that.

Heh, when you get a thread on the News Headlines section about how much of a scumbag you are you can comment ...
(Citizen.....is an idiot: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=7&t=20390)
Or my preference:
(Why Citizen Rules!: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=20413)

People tend to hate those that are right and threaten their own beliefs, so maybe between the two of us we have the answers to life the universe and everything .



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If you look at the industrial societies that existed in Marx's time they were increadibly brutal and one sided. That they didn't evolve the way he thought they might is a good thing.
WHAAAAT???? How 'bout them factories where women are shut in? Work 20 hours a day? Sleep 3 to a bed and piss 10 to a toilet? Earn about a buck a day? Oh, and are forced to have abortions if their supervisors happen to rape them pregnant?

This is not some sicfi dystopia, nor is it some Soviet gulag. It's going on in Saipan in the Marianas.... A USA protectorate which doesn't have to enforce USA labor or immigration laws but gets to export to the USA duty-free. And who set up this little slice of corporate heaven? Why, none other than Tom DeLay and Jackoff Abramoff.
Quote:

You might not have heard of Willie Tan, but he is quite well-known in the Northern Marianas as a garment-industry tycoon. Sometimes he’s also described as a sweatshop operator.

He is also well-known in the U.S. Congress, where some of Sen. Clinton’s fellow Democrats have denounced him and his factories, which pay subminimum wages, for years, mostly because of his tireless efforts to make sure those factories are never subjected to U.S. labor laws. None of that has attracted much new coverage. But there is one reason you might have heard of Willie Tan. His name has popped up here and there in connection with a man with whom he’s done quite a bit of business over the years: Jack Abramoff.

Congressional investigators probing the Abramoff affair have run across Tan’s name in some of the disgraced lobbyists’ e-mails.

My colleague on this page, Josh Marshall, has posted some of those e-mails on his website, talkingpointsmemo.com. For example, in a March 28, 2000, note, Abramoff billed Willie Tan $223,679 for expenses relating to the sports skyboxes that Abramoff used in his lobbying.
Why was Willie Tan paying Abramoff? Because Abramoff could provide access to U.S. lawmakers. Last year, ABC News reported that Abramoff “arranged a lavish overseas trip to the island of Saipan for House Majority Leader Tom DeLay [R-Texas] over the New Year’s holiday in 1997.”



And we get to compete against eachother in the bottom of the barrel. Fletch, I always thought you were a smart dude. You have SERIOUSLY disappointed me!

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=20100

Consumer cheer hits four-year high in April
Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:51 AM ET

By Amanda Cooper

NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. consumer confidence in the economy reached a four-year high in April as better job prospects temporarily offset unease over rising gasoline prices, according to data released on Tuesday.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/10/poll.economy/index.html

Poll: Confidence in economy dips
More than four out of five concerned about inflation

Wednesday, May 10, 2006; Posted: 5:08 p.m. EDT (21:08 GMT)

A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corp. found that 52 percent consider the economy "good," while 47 percent call it "poor." But the results show that even those who consider the economy strong have concerns.

More than four out of five -- 82 percent -- said they are at least somewhat concerned about inflation, with 45 percent describing themselves as "very concerned."


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:29 PM

DINKY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=20100

Consumer cheer hits four-year high in April
Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:51 AM ET

By Amanda Cooper

NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. consumer confidence in the economy reached a four-year high in April as better job prospects temporarily offset unease over rising gasoline prices, according to data released on Tuesday.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/10/poll.economy/index.html

Poll: Confidence in economy dips
More than four out of five concerned about inflation

Wednesday, May 10, 2006; Posted: 5:08 p.m. EDT (21:08 GMT)

A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corp. found that 52 percent consider the economy "good," while 47 percent call it "poor." But the results show that even those who consider the economy strong have concerns.

More than four out of five -- 82 percent -- said they are at least somewhat concerned about inflation, with 45 percent describing themselves as "very concerned."


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.



Gasoline prices are dropping now, research it and you'll find out. But I'm sure it'll be tough to research with all the people crying and whining that it's so expensive.

Poll's don't mean crap. If someone ran off and took a poll with a bunch of people asking them "Do you think people Die?" and the majority said no would you believe that people don't die?

People are stupid and ignorant, going out and doing polls doesn't change the facts. ESPECIALLY if CNN is doing the polling.

That's just my opinion on Polling...

I like this post though, the economy here is so great. But of course the mainstream media denies that.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 3:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, there is one reason to look at consumer confidence specifically: it predicts what people will spend. And contrary to Republican belief, economic growth is pulled by demand more than it is pushed by investment. You being a smart person, I'm surprised that you didn't know what that particular statistic is used for. And BTW, when push comes to shove- such as the post 9-11 holiday season when retailers make most of their sales and people stayed home in droves- even Bush dropped his supply-side stance to get out that all important patriotic message "Shop till you drop". (I'm sure you forgot that revealing item so I just thought I'd bring it up.)

But you're right about one thing: consumer confidence is fickle. It doesn' take into account that black balloon looming on the horizon. Did you hear that sound??? That's the sound of the housing bubble bursting.

Now I probably don't need to tell you this, but the housing bubble has fueled a lot of refi-based spending. Once prices drop (which they are already doing on some parts of the country, and will droip even further with today's prime rate hike) spending will decrease. Overall it's hard to say how much, but some markets are projected to drop by as much as 40%. The last time this happened it took about 12 years to reverse and a lot of homes were foreclosed and people went into banruptcy. So, we'll see how this plays out against a background of declining real wages and higher fuel (and therefore everything else) prices.

Overall, I'd say "not so good". I'm sure glad I put a chunk-o-change into foreign currency!!!

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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