REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

IMMIGRATION

POSTED BY: IMPRESSION
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 2, 2006 10:49
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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:53 PM

SOUPCATCHER


I wanted to do a quick post on this since I just got back from the San Jose march. By far the majority of signs that I saw referenced HR4437 (eta: Except for the one guy who mistakenly wrote HR3437 on his shirt. I'm sure that was a bad bill, too. But my girlfriend didn't appreciate how funny I found that). That seemed to be the big motivator for many of the people to take to the streets: that their parents would become felons (there were a lot of families in the crowd, many of the children with signs saying, "My parents are not felons," many many strollers - I was joking to my girlfriend that you could do an exhibit on contemporary American stroller design with just the people around you) or that those who provide aid to undocumented immigrants would be penalized.

I'm always interested in the "why now?" question when something like this happens. To me, HR4437 was an attempt to rejuvenate a voter base during an election year (similar to the defense of marriage amendment things from 2004) that woke up a lot of people to the reality that half of their family would immediately become guilty of a felony. Less an example of people marching for their rights (as it has been advertised and as has been referenced in this thread) and more of a case of people marching to protest an increasing criminalization of their family members. At least that's the way it seemed to me by looking around as I was marching.

And now I have to go get some aloe type stuff from the store since the part of me I inherited from my mother forgot that lots of sun + me = pain. I'll post more later on my thoughts on this topic and why I felt it was important to march (the last immigrant - no doubt illegal - in our family came here back in the twenties, so it's not like I have an immediate dog in the hunt).

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:55 PM

RIVER6213


Finally! I am able to drive again! I am now in my main office after not having been here in a month, and there are balloons and a ton of get well cards. There are also workers still here after hours! I guess my workers like the robot after all; I have failed at being the complete bitch. I must put more effort into ramping up my efforts at being completly evil to these people.

Anyway. This whole illegal immigration issue will play out as it should. I doubt that after all of this fuss, the government will just kick them out. I suspect that we will do the right thing and take responsibility. If not, then this country is no place that I wish to be.

If I told all of you what I did for a living, you would never believe it, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to voice and vent my point of views, and thank you for treating me like one of yourselves.

River

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:58 PM

KHYRON


Illegal immigration facts and figures: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/guides/456900/456958/html/nn1pag
e1.stm




Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 6:12 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Illegal immigration facts and figures: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/guides/456900/456958/html/nn1pag
e1.stm




Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.



I'm not particularly fond of humanity as stated in past posts by myself. But people do, must come first. There are no minions here. Everyone has value.

River


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Monday, May 1, 2006 6:42 PM

RIVER6213


Wow! I got the last word! I must be either on top of my game, or in delusionalland like PirateNews.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:22 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Why do you THINK Jr Bush's PR firm and the Mexican Fox's PR firm picked May 1 for their illegal riots by criminal alien hoodlums? May 1 is Communist May Day, Satanic Beltane, birthday of the Bavarian Illuminati, and LAW DAY...

Now if we can convince the illegals to take the next 364 days off, the problem is solved. Of course, 30% of illegals don't work anyway, because they're on welfare.

Quote:

Professor Predicts 'Hispanic Homeland'

By The Associated Press


www.aztlan.net

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — A University of New Mexico Chicano Studies professor predicts a new, sovereign Hispanic nation within the century, taking in the Southwest and several northern states of Mexico.

Charles Truxillo suggests the “Republica del Norte,” the Republic of the North, is “an inevitability.”

He envisions it encompassing all of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and southern Colorado, plus the northern tier of Mexican states: Baja California, Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Nuevo León and Tamaulipas.

Quote:


Terrorist traitors hoist Mexican flag at a California school
www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_3657604



Along both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border “there is a growing fusion, a reviving of connections,” Truxillo said. “Southwest Chicanos and Norteño Mexicanos are becoming one people again.”

Truxillo, 47, has said the new country should be brought into being “by any means necessary,” but recently said it was unlikely to be formed by civil war. Instead, its creation will be accomplished by the electoral pressure of the future majority Hispanic population in the region, he said.

Other UNM professors were skeptical

Felipe Gonzáles, director of UNM's Southwest Hispanic Research Institute, said there's a “certain homeland undercurrent” among New Mexico Hispanics who believe land was stolen and promises broken. But, he said, a new nation would need much more widespread support.

“Educated elites are going to have to pick up on this idea and run with it and use it as a point of confrontation if it is to succeed,” Gonzáles said.

Quote:

"We have an aging white America. They are dying. We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."
-Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas, Arlington, founder of La Raza Unida (The Race United)



Truxillo contends states have the right to secede under the Articles of Confederation of 1777, in which states retained “sovereignty, freedom and independence.” He contends the Articles were not superseded in that regard by the U.S. Constitution and that although the Civil War settled the question militarily, it was never resolved by courts.

History Professor Daniel Feller disagreed

“The Constitution does supersede the Articles of Confederation,” Feller said. “It takes no notice of the articles and is not presented as bearing any relation to them. The Constitution does not declare, recognize or in any way acknowledge the right to secede.”

And, he noted, the full title was “Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.”

The U.S. Supreme Court said in 1869 the union was indestructible, political science Professor Joseph Stewart said.

He also said he was “somewhat skeptical in the sense of minority politics” about a possible Republic of the North. He said Americans of Mexican descent have moved all over the United States and that “I don't see that Hispanic population becoming more distinct but in fact becoming less distinct.”

Juan José Peña, Hispanic activist and vice chairman of the Hispanic Roundtable, said there's not enough political consciousness among Mexican Americans to form a separate nation.

“Right now, there's no movement capable of undertaking it,” he said.

Truxillo, who teaches at UNM's Chicano Studies Program on a yearly contract, believes it's his job to help develop a “cadre of intellectuals” to think about how it can become a reality.

Native-born American Hispanics feel like strangers in their own land, he said

“We remain subordinated,” he said. “We have a negative image of our own culture, created by the media. Self-loathing is a terrible form of oppression. The long history of oppression and subordination has to end.”

Truxillo said Hispanics who have achieved positions of power or otherwise are “enjoying the benefits of assimilation” are most likely to oppose a new nation.

“There will be the negative reaction, the tortured response of someone who thinks, 'Give me a break. I just want to go to Wal-Mart.' But the idea will seep into their consciousness, and cause an internal crisis, a pain of conscience, an internal dialogue as they ask themselves: 'Who am I in this system?”'


Dr. Charles Truxillo is a native of New Mexico. He attended public schools in Albuquerque and Belen. Dr. Truxillo received his graduate and undergraduate degrees from the University of New Mexico, majoring in Latin American, Borderlands, and Asian History. Dr. Truxillo also attended St. Michael's Catholic seminary in California. Later, he worked as an instructor in the University College of UNM, serving as director of the University College's Social Science program from 1988 to 1990. Throughout this period Dr. Truxillo traveled extensively in Mexico, Central America, Spain, and Western Europe. Between 1992 and 1997, he was an Assistant Professor of History at New Mexico Highlands University. While at NMHI, he annually organized student tours to Mexico and sponsored student and faculty forums and symposiums.

www.aztlan.net/homeland.htm


Quote:



www.aztlanunderground.com

COVER OF HOT NEW ALBUM: MEXICANS SHOWN SPEARING AMERICAN "PIGS"

Lyrics
506 years of indigenous resistance
The prophecies are coming true
The redemption of the red people has come!
The 6th sun now arises
The 7th fire has arrived
Cihuatl is reclaiming
We have returned to Aztlan
We have returned to Aztlan!!!!

WE DIDN'T CROSS THE BORDERS, THE BORDERS CROSSED US YET THE SETTLER NATION LIVES IN DISGUST!!

GET THE FUCK OUT, GET THE FUCK OUT, GET THE FUCK, FUCK, FUCK OUT GET THE FUCK OUT

WASICHU [White Man] EATER OF THE FAT WASTER OF EARTH MOTHER AND PEOPLE COLONIZER OF AZTLAN AND THE WORLD GET THE FUCK OUT!!!!

www.americanpatrol.com/FEATURES/010421AZTLANRAP/FeatureAztlanRap010421
.html




www.minutemanhq.com




Immigrant Myths Vs Facts
The New American
http://rense.com/general70/immg.htm


Mexico To Legalize 'Personal' Pot, Cocaine & Heroin

4-29-6

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Possessing marijuana, cocaine and even heroin will no longer be a crime in Mexico if they are in small amounts for personal use under new reforms passed by Congress that quickly drew U.S. criticism. The measure given final passage 53-26 by senators in a late night session on Thursday is aimed at letting police focus on their battle against major drug dealers, and President Vicente Fox is expected to sign it into law.
http://rense.com/general70/pot.htm



NAFTA SHAFTA = CIA Free Trade in Pot, Coke and Blackwater Heroin.

Today, my little brother will find out if he's elected county judge. His opponent is a professor from Hahvud and Yaaaale, who broadcasts his weekly CTV show entirely in Spanish, to appeal to 250,000 ILLEGAL alien voters who came to Tennessee to take their driver license tests in Spanish, without fear of arrest or deportation. 25,000 votes disappear in our county every election, thanks to the foreign military corporation that counts all the votes. At least he's trying to infiltrate Gangsta Govt, after the judge locked him up in unconstitutional debtors prison, which the court of appeals overturned as false arrest and false imprisonment. Gunshots have now been fired, and his aircraft sabotaged, nearly killing him...
www.geocities.com/redneckelectiondeathmatch

"WOW! Have you seen this website, PirateNews.org? It's totally awesome! I can't believe that Judge Swann put David Lee in jail! What an asshole! Well, I'm gonna vote for David Lee."
-member of super duper elite Leadership Knoxville, run by Knox County billionaires
www.leadershipknoxville.com
www.piratenews.org
Quote:



How to deal with criminal invaders from Mexico @ 6,000 bullets per second



Well why don'tcha put HER in charge?!
-Bill Paxton, Aliens

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:42 PM

RIVER6213


So much for getting in the last word.

Piratenews, why do you put so much information in your posts? What is with all the pictures? No point in asking I suppose. I do like the girl shooting the machinegun though.

You are just another lonely heart in a world that doesnt hear you. Join the club


River

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:46 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

If I told all of you what I did for a living, you would never believe it, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to voice and vent my point of views, and thank you for treating me like one of yourselves.

River



Heart transplant doc? CIA assassin? Ballerina?

I only let the people I own use my title.
-Magistrate Higgins, Jaynestown

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:48 PM

RIVER6213


?????
I can't tell you that. Telling you that would make you start putting up all kinds of crazy pictures

I want Bruce back. I miss Bruce


River



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Monday, May 1, 2006 8:04 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Stripper. Excuse me, exotic dancer.

I only let the people I own use my title.
-Magistrate Higgins, Jaynestown

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Monday, May 1, 2006 8:07 PM

RIVER6213


A stripper or an exotic dancer? How insulting are you? Oh please!
You are Xerogravity, because that is something he would say.

Anyway, do you have any opinion regarding the immigration issue without 90 pages of yapping and pictures of teens being run down by tanks?

I can tell that this will get ugly if I stick around.

River



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Monday, May 1, 2006 8:30 PM

SOUPCATCHER


I'll just add a few more thoughts on the topic. My basic take is that if you can make it into this country and want to work hard and make a better life for you and your family then you are an American. Whether or not you are a legal American is beside the point, in my mind.

I am an American by default. I didn't make a decision to make this country my home. I was born here. But I like to think that, if I had been born somewhere else, I would choose to move to this country and live. Because, to engage in a little patriotism, I happen to think that this is the best country on earth (I also happen to think that we can do a lot better, but that's a completely different discussion). So I tend to have a lot of respect for people who are Americans by design, those who left where they were born to come to this country.

There is a lot of complaining going on about lawbreaking. So what. We break laws all the time. I break the law every time I go over the speed limit. Does that make me illegal? It's a conscious decision I make because I think the speed limit is too low or I'm in a hurry and getting to where I'm going is more important than the fine I'll pay if I get caught. Or whatever rationalization I can come up with. It's a judgement for me. As long as I'm not a danger to anyone else I have no problem disregarding this particular law. And, if I had been born in some other country and wanted to live in the US because I thought I could improve the chances for my children (non-existant though they may be) I'd like to think that I would do whatever it took, short of physically injuring someone, to make that happen. I think it says a lot about the strength of our country that so many people want to be Americans.

But, some argue, they don't want to become Americans. They just want to send money to other countries, steal from the services that citizens have paid taxes for, send their children to public school for free, and then leave the country when they've milked it for all it's worth. Why should we put up with that behavior? Well, I might pay more attention to some of these criticisms if they hadn't been bandied about by white supremacist groups for decades. White power groups have been using the threat of a brown America as a recruiting device for quite a while (Before the Mexicans it was the Japanese, and the Chinese, and the Catholics, etc. etc. etc.). And some of the rhetoric (reconquista - seperatist projection, anyone?, they're all criminals, they're all on welfare, they don't speak English, etc) has slipped into the mainstream discourse. So pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical on how large a problem any of these claims are. I rarely hear people back them up with actual numbers. I have seen studies, however, that show the amount of money undocumented immigrants contribute to the economy.

The Pew Hispanic Center is a decent resource for studies of this nature. Check there to see if there are some actual numbers to back up the assertions. Until then, it's people talking out of their ass, as far as I'm concerned.

To give an example. I've heard people complain that undocumented workers send their children to public school for free, thereby mooching off of the taxes paid by citizens. Property taxes pay for schools. It's probably a good bet that an undocumented worker is renting (if they own property, than they're paying the taxes already). If the landlord isn't adding the property taxes into the monthly rent than they are a stupid businessperson. So how are they not paying for public schools?

I guess I interpret a lot of the complaining about illegal immigration as a sign of a lack of faith in the strength of American culture and society. My country is strong enough to absorb immigrants as long as they come here to work hard. We have in the past and we'll continue to in the future. It's not right for the second and third and fourth, ad infinitum, generations to try and shut out a new wave of firsts. I tend to think that this country changes people. Once they've lived here for a while, they can't imagine living anywhere else. And they want to work hard so their children can have things better than they did. How is that not American? So the average skin tone gets a little more brown. Get over it.

Well, that's enough rambling. The main reason I marched today in San Jose to support immigrants was that, given different circumstances, I would be one of them.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 8:53 PM

RIGHTEOUS9



Good post Soupcatcher, thanks

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:24 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Carefull PN, there may be someone out there with more training on heavy weapons than you.
Hard to believe I know, but possible.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 10:46 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Vyse:
I'm willing to bet though that while European gas prices are higher than the U.S.'s, their real wages are higher than the U.S.'s also. You have top take that into account when translating funds.


Wages between the US and UK are comparable, with goods costing much more in the UK.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 3:03 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
Why do you THINK Jr Bush's PR firm and the Mexican Fox's PR firm picked May 1 for their illegal riots by criminal alien hoodlums? May 1 is Communist May Day, Satanic Beltane, birthday of the Bavarian Illuminati, and LAW DAY...



Satanic Beltane? What the hell are you on? Beltane was a pagan holiday that celebrated the return of spring. And criminal alien hoodlums? So we're going to comepletely ignore the high number of criminals our own country has? Ever heard of Gacy? Dahmer? Capone? All American creations.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 4:00 AM

AMITON


Soupcatcher,

Might I inquire on just one point in your opinion? The number being bandied about for illegal immigrants in the US is 12 million, give or take. I think you can grant me that I'm not posting information to back that up, and I'll grant that it's just the number I keep hearing in the press. It can very easily be wrong, and I don't know any better.

You don't like the illustration about those 12 million people breaking the law, because you think in your opinion it's a fair law to break. What do you say about the people that take the time and effort to enter the US properly? It's a difficult, expensive, and very long process that those people endure. We're talking thousands of dollars (which in almost any case I've ever seen has been an extreme financial burden) and a year or longer that they can't even *visit* the US (once they've been accepted to processing, which could be several years on top of that), lest their application be rejected and the process be started over again from scratch.

Are these people just stupid fools for making every effort to adhere to the laws and regulations established by the US? Perhaps everyone that wants to "be American" should just jump a flight to a location near a US border and enter illegally, since that's the more effective way to do things?

Amiton.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:03 AM

VYSE


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Vyse:
I'm willing to bet though that while European gas prices are higher than the U.S.'s, their real wages are higher than the U.S.'s also. You have top take that into account when translating funds.


Wages between the US and UK are comparable, with goods costing much more in the UK.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.



Is that a number like the GNP, or a minimum wage. The minimum wage in the U.S. when you convert it to real wages is level to waht it was in 1968. The price of living has gone up, but not the wages.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:41 AM

KHYRON


Amiton, I agree with all of the posts you've posted so far in this thread. Just wanted to let you know. Haven't got time to enter the discussion myself, but I would pretty much just be saying what you've already said anyway.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 7:07 AM

CITIZEN


It was the mean average wage for the US for 2002 compared to the UK for 2004 (which should be higher because of inflation ).

The figures are £20,000 ($36 394) for the UK 2004.

The figures I found (from a website I looked at this morning, which I can no-longer find, bloody Google ) for the US $34,334 for 2002.

In $US the minimum wage in the UK is ~$2 an hour more.

Cost of living:
A house (single family, I'm guessing this means what we call a detached house) in the US: $264,540
In the UK: £285,697 (~$519,882)

Consumer petrol prices, as I stated are about double what they are in the US.

I don't have exact figures but I know food and clothing is cheaper in the US, as are most luxury goods (Cars, electrical etc).



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 7:48 AM

HKCAVALIER


Heya, SoupCatcher,

Glad to hear from you here! "Why now?" absolutely is the question. And of course, this is about "mobilizing the base." Or was. This was s'posed to be the latest brilliant marketing scheme for the Republican Party. It's a 2-fer: "strengthening the borders" sounds real good in this post 9-11 era, and pissing on the Mexicans--particularly the undeserving, illegal (how dare they???) Mexicans--well, nobody cares about those people!

'Cept the Mexicans apparently! And boy howdy there's a lot o' them ain't there? I had no idea! Yesterday's demonstrations were just that: demonstrations. Immigrants demonstrated that they exist and have power, just by being here. They have rights, just by being here. "Inalienable," I think they're called.

These are the invisible people the Republicans figgered couldn't speak english and so would not speak up. But they were wrong. And instead of having a slam-dunk non-event like "The Defence of Marriage Act" they're getting nothing but headaches over this. The future ethnic majority of the U.S.A. will never forget how the Republicans threatened to make their parents felons over night.

Folks, it's deeply hypocritical to exploit these immigrants' illegal status, offering them deplorably low wages under tacet threat of deportation and worse. As has been said, the process of legal immigration is arduous and expensive--these people wouldn't have a chance. Just because being illegal in this country is better than being a natural born citizen of their native countries; just because conditions in their native countries are far worse than anything they'll get from us, doesn't give us the right to sink to just above their level.

(Man, where have I heard this argument before? Oh, I remember, "Well, at least we're better than the Terrorists!")

Cheap foreign labor has been the name of the game in these parts since the days of slavery. And now we decide to put 'em all in jail? Who are we kidding? Do you think for a second that if this kind of law was passed, we would enforce it in any but the most perfunctory way? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new War On: The War on Illegality.

To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.

Did ya all see V for Vendetta? "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:23 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
Soupcatcher,

Might I inquire on just one point in your opinion? The number being bandied about for illegal immigrants in the US is 12 million, give or take. I think you can grant me that I'm not posting information to back that up, and I'll grant that it's just the number I keep hearing in the press. It can very easily be wrong, and I don't know any better.

You don't like the illustration about those 12 million people breaking the law, because you think in your opinion it's a fair law to break. What do you say about the people that take the time and effort to enter the US properly? It's a difficult, expensive, and very long process that those people endure. We're talking thousands of dollars (which in almost any case I've ever seen has been an extreme financial burden) and a year or longer that they can't even *visit* the US (once they've been accepted to processing, which could be several years on top of that), lest their application be rejected and the process be started over again from scratch.

Are these people just stupid fools for making every effort to adhere to the laws and regulations established by the US? Perhaps everyone that wants to "be American" should just jump a flight to a location near a US border and enter illegally, since that's the more effective way to do things?

Amiton.


Amiton,

What I would say to people who become Americans through the system is, "Congratulations. I'm glad that you had that option available. I'm proud to call you a fellow American." Like I said before, I tend to have a lot of respect for people who are Americans by design.

The key point here is that they had that option available to them. I'm not going to second guess the decisions of anyone who doesn't have that option but still wants to come to this country and work hard. If they want to risk their life on a crap shoot for the "pursuit of happiness" than I'm not going to tell them they shouldn't. Becoming an American is non-trivial no matter how you go about it (I think it's a mistake to assume that it's "easier" to be an undocumented immigrant). One complaint I hear often is, "But. But. But. They're cheating." How is leaving behind everything you've ever known to struggle at below subsistence wages for years in the hopes that your children's lives will be better than yours cheating?

It's the responsibility of the government to enforce an immigration policy. I'm not saying we shouldn't have one. What I am saying is that we do a piss poor job of enforcing the inequitable one we have. I think immigration reform needs to have a two prong approach: first make the policy more equitable and philosophically consistent with the guiding principles from our country's inception taking into account that we, as a country, need to be responsible for our actions elsewhere in this hemisphere and across the globe (eta: for example, taking into account that the US and Mexico have a unique history/relationship); second, do a good job of enforcing that more equitable policy.

If you look at this country's immigration policy throughout our history, however, it says more about our prejudices and who we think is acceptable as an American than anything else. The quota system. The haphazard way in which we allow some groups a streamlined citizenship because of who our enemies are at that particular point in time. The importation of laborers and then the writing of legislation to prohibit them from citizenship (probably the most aggregious example of this are the laws written to stop immigration from China during the nineteenth century). We value the labor of these undocumented workers. But we're not supposed to value the individual? That's crap.



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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:25 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Hey, HKCavalier! Yeah, long time no post on my part.

Liked what you had to say .

edited to add: It's not like undocumented immigration hasn't been a viable topic for discussion before now. It's almost like someone woke up and said, "Well, we know how to win elections. But we can't govern worth shit. People are finally starting to wake up to that fact. What can we do to keep them distracted long enough to win another election? LOOK! ILLEGALS!"

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:32 AM

ONETOOMANY


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.

Did ya all see V for Vendetta? "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



This is what the real problem is about. whether or not the citizens of the U.S. should allow our current structure of power to remain in place. Throughout history any major change in a political structure has been a result of the populace standing up and saying that we don't agree & we aren't going take it anymore. The biggest problem we face is that our government uses specific & strategic tactics to prevent organization of groups that might not totally agree with what our government does. Our real focus needs to be on changing our system through another revolution. Whether it be peaceful or not it needs to happen.
I will say one thing on immigration. If you are immigrating to a new country "ANY COUNTRY" legally or illegally you need to accept the personal responsibility of intigrating into the social structure of that country regardles of your cultural differences. MY QUOTE "One cannot expect to hide in the open if they don't blend in".

Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:38 AM

ONETOOMANY


Calling on all blue blazer regulars, browncoats, & open revolutionaries to stand up & take action

Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:39 AM

HERA7


The irony of the illegal immigrant is the Mexican people and government treat immigrants far worse than any Mexican immigrants are treated in the US. These are people coming across Mexico's southern border from Central and South America. Yet the Mexican government practically encourages their poor to cross their northern border into the USA.

I am not against _legal_ immigration, but I am against the illegal type. Using history as an rule is a poor example in the immigration issue. We have the law of this country now, not the laws of years ago. 100 years ago and before, the US had practically an unlimited immigration policy, the laws have changed since then.

My ancestors worked hard to make what this country is today, why can't the people immigrating stay in their countries and do the same? Sure it may be difficult, but they have to overcome their current cultures to improve themselves and their homes.

I am for a guest worker program and a legal immigration policy which allows a path to citizenship and assimilation into the US culture.

The USA is cursed with a good educational program for our children. As people get better educated, they are less willing to do the dirty or menial tasks. So we do need the immigrant labor to perform these roles.

We do have people born in the US who don't take advantage of the opportunities here but instead are drains on our resources. There are jobs out there but they are adverse to working at all, let alone, hard.

Amnesty is not the answer, this sends the message of if you can stay here long enough, you get a free pass. This is an insult to those who immigrated legally and to most citzens born here. We need to open up to ways for these people from not only Mexico but other countries to work in the US, but in a legal, regulated form of immigration and guest worker programs.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:41 AM

AMITON


Quote:


Folks, it's deeply hypocritical to exploit these immigrants' illegal status, offering them deplorably low wages under tacet threat of deportation and worse. As has been said, the process of legal immigration is arduous and expensive--these people wouldn't have a chance. Just because being illegal in this country is better than being a natural born citizen of their native countries; just because conditions in their native countries are far worse than anything they'll get from us, doesn't give us the right to sink to just above their level.

(Man, where have I heard this argument before? Oh, I remember, "Well, at least we're better than the Terrorists!")

Cheap foreign labor has been the name of the game in these parts since the days of slavery. And now we decide to put 'em all in jail? Who are we kidding? Do you think for a second that if this kind of law was passed, we would enforce it in any but the most perfunctory way? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new War On: The War on Illegality.

To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.



I agree and I disagree, HKCavalier. Yes, it is *way* wrong to exploit illegal immigrants and their status in the corporate US. That is tantamount to slavery to me, too.

I very deeply feel that some serious action needs to be taken against employers that hire illegal aliens, even whether they knew that the worker was illegal or not. The onus is on the employer to be responsible for their employees. Sadly, knowing the political climate and effect of big business in the US, it's not going to happen. I think we all know that.

*Hopefully* we agree that something has to happen to prevent the massive influx of illegal immigration. Since that action *won't* be taken against the companies, as sad as that may be and as more appropriate that it may be, the action has to be taken to discourage the act itself.

I am pretty sure that felony imprisonment not only isn't the answer, but is an unworkable solution. The US doesn't have the funding to properly take care of the prison system as it stands now. Throwing every captured illegal immigrant in the clink is only going to exacerbate an already bad situation.

I would, however, liken the metaphor more to misdemeanor petty theft in Beverly Hills than to speeding. This isn't a victimless crime causing a slightly higher risk of endangerment. It is an act that does affect entire regions, although it is one that is easy to be sympathetic to since *right now* the effect is mostly under the radar. Make no mistake, though, this isn't going in a good direction for the United States as a whole. People are violently angry about this issue on both sides.

Would felony deportation be as ignitable a stance to you as felony imprisonment? I understand that people have gotten comfortable in the US with their status, and in many cases are otherwise law-abiding and contibuting members of their society. Many even have children that have lived in the US their entire lives and are now teenagers that have never known anything else.

For them, I am sorry. The situation is unfortunate, but it is a situation entirely built upon the decision to move to the US under false and illegal conditions. If they're caught now, why should they be exempt from the process that is already in place? Just because they avoided the law for ten or more years and kept their noses clean? Perhaps maybe just because they crossed the border and tried to work the system by having an anchor baby, but just didn't get put into the situation that confronted that for a decade?

If the process that is already in place, requiring an illegal immigrant to be deported even after ten or fifteen years, even with a baby that was born inside the US, is acceptable, then why is a proposed solution upping the stakes making them ineligible to vote or to ever legally reside inside the country so much worse? What should be done to actively discourage the idea that illegally migrating to the US is a great, low risk way to get ahead?

Amiton.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 9:57 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Amiton:
What should be done to actively discourage the idea that illegally migrating to the US is a great, low risk way to get ahead?

Amiton.

Heya, Amiton. Thanks for your thoughts. I don't have the time to give you the reply you deserve, but I just hadda make this one point real clear: illegally migrating to the U.S. IS NOT a "great, low risk way to get ahead!" Illegals are at the mercy of law enforcement's very intentional negligence. Which puts them on a legal par with prostitutes. Have you heard of the term "second class citizen?" It is, as has been noted, just a notch above outright slavery. Great and low risk? Yeah, maybe for Walmart!

Hey, and did you know that a lot of these illegal aliens are college educated professionals in their own countries, but unable to legally practice in our country, these doctors and professors are forced to wash dishes so their families can eat? Only the most sociopathic are illegally coming up here thinking, "Whoohoo! I'm on the gravy train now!"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 10:49 AM

AMITON


Quote:


I don't have the time to give you the reply you deserve, but I just hadda make this one point real clear: illegally migrating to the U.S. IS NOT a "great, low risk way to get ahead!" Illegals are at the mercy of law enforcement's very intentional negligence. Which puts them on a legal par with prostitutes. Have you heard of the term "second class citizen?" It is, as has been noted, just a notch above outright slavery. Great and low risk? Yeah, maybe for Walmart!

Hey, and did you know that a lot of these illegal aliens are college educated professionals in their own countries, but unable to legally practice in our country, these doctors and professors are forced to wash dishes so their families can eat? Only the most sociopathic are illegally coming up here thinking, "Whoohoo! I'm on the gravy train now!"



Fair enough, HKCavalier. Perhaps I gave a poor representation of my opinion of the *individuals* that have entered the US illegally as opposed to the single representation of the category as a whole. I have a tendency to preach from that soapbox without adequately giving representation to the individual when I get on this topic. You have my apologies.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Unlawful entry into the US is no small feat, and certainly worthy of recognition. I can respect their courage to leave their established status quo and undertake a task that is so very dangerous. It's certainly not as easy for these individuals to successfully do what they've done as it is made to seem in general. That's true even when you factor in the pamphlet printing, the maps to holes in fences, and the placing of water and food at common crossing points on the border.

And while I may not agree that *most* of these immigrants have completed their higher education, it would be irresponsible of me to claim that there aren't significant numbers of individuals that have left their education and the relative safety of their jobs behind for a chance at a better future for themselves and their family. They most definitely do exist, in large quantities, and in many cases their international education credentials and qualifications are ignored inside US borders.

In almost all cases, I whole-heartedly agree that many immigrants, even legal citizens, are treated as second class, as lessers, or even as petty criminals simply by association and met with bigotry and animosity, even in this day and age.

I do think that at then end of things, you are going to fall on the side of giving credit to them for enduring these hardships and wanting it to count toward giving them citizenship (I presume, and I don't mean to say that in a negative way), while I will fall somewhere else, personally.

To me, all of these things are indicators of a much larger problem, and by allowing the process to continue we're enabling the exploitation. We are *not* going to stop big business from capitalizing on people that are vulnerable. We are not, and cannot in an effective manner, make the government beat the snot out of big business until they feel that the risk of doing so outweighs the reward. The government doesn't have that kind of resource. The only real solution I can see is to take away the benefit of being here; take the motivation away at the source.

There's not a whole lot of ways for the government to even pull that off, and all of them I can imagine involve the US Government being a real big jerk. I don't like it, but we're in this situation. Did we do it to ourselves? Yes. Absolutely. Now that we've come here, though, here we are.

I've also seen people asking "Why now?" in this thread. Well, I think we all know (including the people asking the question) "why now." That doesn't detract at all from the point that this has been a problem for a very long time, nor does it take away the fact that we are exactly where we are and something really needs to be done.

Amiton.

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