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Why won't the British media just get over it?

POSTED BY: KHYRON
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 10:55
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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 7:33 AM

KHYRON


I refer to the last sentence in this article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4923906.stm

I find it very disappointing that the British media (and it's not just the Sun) won't get over its WWII fixation regarding anything German. The current German generation is as responsible for the holocaust as the current British generation is responsible for the genocides that happened during colonialism, and yet still the British bulldogs won't let go.

Like Basil said in Fawlty Towers: "Don't mention the war!". That's some good advice.



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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:41 AM

FLETCH2


It's a popularist thing. It will die out when the generation that were kids in the imediate post war era die.

An interesting thing I found with Germans of my age is a kind of bizarre national guilt, like they carry original sin for what their parents and grandparents did or failed to do. Younger Germans are getting over it just as younger Brits don't really care about the war.

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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 11:20 AM

CITIZEN


The Tabloid press, being twats! Whatever next?

PirateNews using the British Tabloid press articles as proof of the NWO?

Oh...



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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 11:42 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Since we have no empire left we have to cling on to something.
Remember what happens when we beat the Germans at football? Theres almost as much celebration as VE day.


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Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:53 AM

SIMONWHO


I think that its a bit unfair to slam the tabloids for a prediction that they will push a war fixated series of headlines.

It will happen but it might be more civilised than the pretty shabby stories that appeared around Euro 96.

Of course nowadays Germany is much weaker than it used to be - politically, economically and more importantly,at football.

The other factor is that the Germans have no sense of humour about it, something that few of us can resist.

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:14 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
The other factor is that the Germans have no sense of humour about it, something that few of us can resist.



Why would anyone have a sense of humour about it...?

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 5:34 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


They bombed our chippies.
They have to pay!

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:04 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
The other factor is that the Germans have no sense of humour about it, something that few of us can resist.



Sorry SimonWho, but that was just a stupid thing to say. Of course they don't have a sense of humour about it. Would the British, the Spanish and the French have a sense of humour if people started making fun of them exterminating millions of natives during colonialism? Would Americans have a sense of humour if people made fun of slavery?

Besides, it's impossible for Germans to have a sense of humour about it since from an early age there's this guilt complex that gets hammered into them. Fletch mentioned this before, and I can confirm it since I lived in Germany for a while and also know a couple of people there, but Germans, through their own media and upbringing, are made to feel guilty about the holocaust and WWII, even if they were born decades after it happened. So of course if another country, particularly one that has a past that it shouldn't be completely proud of in its own right, constantly makes fun of Germans because of its past through its tabloid press, it's going to hurt.



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:22 AM

CITIZEN


He was joking...



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:15 AM

SIMONWHO


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
The other factor is that the Germans have no sense of humour about it, something that few of us can resist.



Sorry SimonWho, but that was just a stupid thing to say. Of course they don't have a sense of humour about it. Would the British, the Spanish and the French have a sense of humour if people started making fun of them exterminating millions of natives during colonialism? Would Americans have a sense of humour if people made fun of slavery?

Besides, it's impossible for Germans to have a sense of humour about it since from an early age there's this guilt complex that gets hammered into them. Fletch mentioned this before, and I can confirm it since I lived in Germany for a while and also know a couple of people there, but Germans, through their own media and upbringing, are made to feel guilty about the holocaust and WWII, even if they were born decades after it happened. So of course if another country, particularly one that has a past that it shouldn't be completely proud of in its own right, constantly makes fun of Germans because of its past through its tabloid press, it's going to hurt.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.



Actually we do have a sense of humour about it. Watch The Meaning of Life for a nice little scene set in the days of Empire. The French, they're still proud of their conquering days. And I'm sure there have been plenty of mocking jokes about slavery too.

The difference is that my nearest ancestor involved in empire building probably died a hundred years ago. Whereas a peer of mine in Germany could ask his grandfather how he took part in the most evil, genocidal acts in human history (standard except for Stalin clause here). It's living memory.

One of my close friends remembers it all vividly, how she suffered, how her husband suffered and how the country suffered. How her friends died. How her family died. Now if you'd care to tell her that she should "get over it", please, do so here and I'll pass it on to her.

It's as the old saying goes "If you don't want your country to get the occasional jest at its expense, don't embark on mass campaigns of slaughter, hatred and genocide."

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:17 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
He was joking...



Oh...



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:46 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
One of my close friends remembers it all vividly, how she suffered, how her husband suffered and how the country suffered. How her friends died. How her family died. Now if you'd care to tell her that she should "get over it", please, do so here and I'll pass it on to her.

It's as the old saying goes "If you don't want your country to get the occasional jest at its expense, don't embark on mass campaigns of slaughter, hatred and genocide."



But how does this relate to young people/children being born in Germany today? The point of this thread is that modern day Germany shouldn't be held responsible for the acts of their ancestors.

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:07 PM

SIMONWHO


Ancestors... no, that would be unfair.

Living relatives who committed this acts of evil... can't they still carry the blame?

There are still Nazis in Germany. There are still neo-Nazis in Germany.

Perhaps it is easy to be superior when your country has no traditions of fascism and dictatorship. But then again, if there is a standard to judge countries against each other, is there a better one?

Other than football, obviously. (And if the US team is the fourth best in the world... well, it isn't, no matter what the FIFA rankings say.)

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:11 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
But how does this relate to young people/children being born in Germany today? The point of this thread is that modern day Germany shouldn't be held responsible for the acts of their ancestors.



Yup that was the point, but now I'm not sure if SimonWho totally missed it or if he meant the first post in jest (in bad taste, mind you, in the context of the overall topic). I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and look at what is, quite frankly, the dribbel he wrote in his second post as a frustrated reaction to me not picking up that his first post was a joke.

If, on the other hand, Simonwho, you didn't mean the first post as a joke and you do mean what you said in the second post, then you really are a moron.

i) Some comedians making fun of their nation's own history does not rival the press of another country making fun of that nation's history. Do you really think the English would be okay with it if the French were making fun of them for their crimes during colonialism?

ii) So one of your close friends suffered during the war, that makes the tabloid press making war-related jokes about Germans alright? And this may sound cruel, but yes, 'get over it' is exactly the advice I'd give to her. If she spent most of the 60 years since then thinking about the sufferings during the war, then that's not really living. I know it's not easy to 'get over it', but it's some sound advice. Feel free to pass it along.

iii) I'm sure you made that 'old saying' up .



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:13 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
There are still Nazis in Germany. There are still neo-Nazis in Germany.



I don't disagree, but there are neo-Nazis in England too, and there are a lot of them in America these days. So these days it can hardly be seen as a purely German thing.

Quote:

And if the US team is the fourth best in the world... well, it isn't, no matter what the FIFA rankings say.


I don't disagree with this either .



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 6:28 PM

FLETCH2


Like I said it's a popular culture thing that will die out when the generation that remembers the war does. It's a fine tradition in Europe to make fun of your neighbours, we have a whole class of joke called Englishman/Irishman/Scotsman jokes and most other places do the same. In Spain notherners make jokes at southerner's expense.

Brit/French and Brit/German jokes are tame compared to French/German or German/French ones.



"Don't mention the War" is from an entire episode of Fawlty Towers dealing with German tourists and Basil's bad reactions.

"'Ello, Ello," was an entire series about the inept French resistance, inept Germans and the Inept English.

Both these shows sold very well abroad, in fact the only change that was made to Fawlty Towers is that when it was dubbed into Spanish they made Manuel the idiot waiter Italian!


The nastiness of it in the tabloids is just the way nasty tabloids are and doesnt vary much were ever you are.


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Thursday, April 20, 2006 6:45 PM

KHYRON


I agree with everything you said Fletch, except that it's 'Allo, 'Allo (and not 'Ello, 'Ello) .

It's important to keep in mind that 'Allo 'Allo made fun of everyone (in later series it made fun of the Italians as well), and not just of one nation. Had it made fun of just one of them, I doubt it would have such a broad appeal, unless it's a nation everyone hates (like France... just kidding!).

Besides, Nazis deserve to be made fun of, and Brits/Germans mocking each other is fine too, but my point is that the current generation of Germans doesn't deserve to be made fun of with Nazi references. Nations making fun of each other is of course completely understandable, but it shouln't get too nasty, and to a lot of Germans, the British tabloid humour is going too far.



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 8:03 PM

FLETCH2


"Ello Ello" was a police series

I think the point about tabloids is that to get the readership they do they have to appeal to the lowest common denominator and if that means appeals to cheap nationalism they'll do it. It works on the scattergun principle. You gode the Germans, then you insult the French, you print some celeb scandals, you throw in a topless girl. There is a chance that at least one of those will work for your reader and if at least one thing hits every day he'll keep reading.

One thing to understand is that many Tabloid owners like the current level of UK isolationsm from Europe. I can easily believe that in a choice between what was best for the UK or the EU and their own narrow financial interests they would prefer to keep the divisions strong.

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 8:25 PM

KHYRON


I had a question about Ello Ello but never mind (never heard of it, that's all).



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 9:17 PM

PIRATENEWS

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It's not bad they don't forget history, it's bad they never learn from it.

And what was the name of that BBC TV comedy in the French Resistance? I must admit I laughed at that. Sort of like Hogan's Heros, making Nazis look like imbeciles. Allo Allo?

My favorite British comedy of all time was Spitting Image muppet show, which was so funny it's banned forever, apparently. It skewered the royals and Parliament and White House. Never seen a rerun. Even better than the elderly Monty Pythons.




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Thursday, April 20, 2006 9:32 PM

KHYRON


Yep, that's 'Allo 'Allo you're thinking of. One of my favourites, even if it's really silly.

Never saw Spitting Image, but they do have some VHS's on Amazon in case you're interested. But it doesn't seem as though they have an entire series out, just some 'Best of' compilations.



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:00 PM

CITIZEN


Spitting Image ran for years. At least 10, it was hardly banned the creators decided they'd had enough, as for re-runs they're on on UK Gold, but being a show the satired the weeks current news I doubt theres much call for it, since part of what made each episode funny was knowing the real event behind it.



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Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:13 PM

CRYBABY


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
It's not bad they don't forget history, it's bad they never learn from it.



Well you could say that about every other country in the world, no country/goverment has ever learnt from its mistakes or the mistakes of others.

People seem to think that the Holocaust was all down to those dastardly Germans up to their tricks but no one wants to admit that it could have been ANY nation that committed such crimes, Germany doesnt have a monopoly on evil bastards.

Its been 60 years since the war and people are still each other with as much enthusiasm as ever


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Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:12 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
I had a question about Ello Ello but never mind (never heard of it, that's all).



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.



It's a joke (a very old one.) Supposedly when discovering a very obvious crime our boys in blue are supposed to say "'Ello, 'ello, 'ello, what's going on here then?"


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Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:22 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Spitting Image ran for years. At least 10, it was hardly banned the creators decided they'd had enough, as for re-runs they're on on UK Gold, but being a show the satired the weeks current news I doubt theres much call for it, since part of what made each episode funny was knowing the real event behind it.




The interesting thing was that they spent years trying to interest other countries in the format. I believe the French had a version and they did a pilot for (I believe) NBC that was never shown. They screen a section of it during a special on Spitting Image and the reason it didn't work was that it wasn't funny, apparently back then at least there was only so much you could do satire wise on US telly and in keeping with US Standards and Practices you couldn't make it viscious enough.

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Friday, April 21, 2006 1:27 AM

SIMONWHO


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Do you really think the English would be okay with it if the French were making fun of them for their crimes during colonialism?

ii) So one of your close friends suffered during the war, that makes the tabloid press making war-related jokes about Germans alright? And this may sound cruel, but yes, 'get over it' is exactly the advice I'd give to her. If she spent most of the 60 years since then thinking about the sufferings during the war, then that's not really living. I know it's not easy to 'get over it', but it's some sound advice. Feel free to pass it along.

iii) I'm sure you made that 'old saying' up .



I disagree that a gap of 60 years utterly absolves Germany of its culpability. But if having a different opinion to you makes me a moron, well...

And my friend has led a full life and continues to do so. But she doesn't pretend to forget what one nation did twice in her living memory.

And neonazis are a drabble in both the US and the UK. In Germany they are a force.

And nations mock other nations. It's a fact. We are the rost bif, with our cups of tea, what-whats and awful teeth. We are able to take the jokes of friends against us - it is only the jokes of our enemies that rankle. So where does that leave Germany's sense of humour failure?

Oh and all tabloid journalism is moronity of the lowest order, obviously.

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Friday, April 21, 2006 3:31 AM

TAYEATRA


The British media sees the 1st and 2nd World Wars as prideful events in British History. It was the last time in which the British Empire could be celebrated before the backlash of culpability regarding colonisation.

The media during the war was full of propaganda which was frighteningly effective and began a wave of public support. Careful censorship meant the public heard little against their own government or troops.

The only real war with that kind of censorship since then was the Gulf war and having uncovered the level of propaganda and government control the public rebelled and no longer accepts the absolute authority of leaders (not necessarily a bad thing).

The point I'm trying to make here is that the media invests itself frequently in trying to uncover the darker aspects of leaders which constantly undermines any action taken as a nation. There will never again be a point at which Britain will truly feel collectively proud of its power so the war has been romanticised.

In my opinion that is the reason behind the British media's fascination with the War.

Taya

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Friday, April 21, 2006 6:42 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:

I disagree that a gap of 60 years utterly absolves Germany of its culpability. But if having a different opinion to you makes me a moron, well...



Maybe not the country per se in a historical sense, maybe... just a little. But if you think it's appropriate to hold today's citizens, specificly those born decades after the war, responsible - even a little bit - for what was done before their births, then yes, that makes you a moron and a bigot for judging people not for who they are, but for what they are: German. Doesn't matter if they're related to those who perpetrated the crimes, if they had not hand in it themselves, and were not even around to speak out against it, they can't be held responsible.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, April 21, 2006 8:02 AM

KHYRON


SimonWho:

What Storymark said, plus: I wouldn't call the neo-nazis in Germany a force, but they are I guess a bigger nuisance and a bigger problem than in the UK or US.
Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
And nations mock other nations.


And I have absolutely no problem with that, as long as it doesn't go too far, and making Nazi references about Germans, to whom this is a sensitive topic because of various reasons, including the guilt complex that has been hammered into them from an early age, does go too far. Calling somebody a Nazi isn't like calling somebody an asshole or making fun of someone's eating habits; there's a far more serious connotation associated with it.
Quote:

Oh and all tabloid journalism is moronity of the lowest order, obviously.

Yeah, but people read that moronity and think it's okay to make those sort of jokes about Germans.

Fletch:

I get it now, just thought there may have been a British comedy series I missed.

Tayeatra:

Some interesting points.



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Friday, April 21, 2006 3:58 PM

SIMONWHO


But nobody called anybody a Nazi. The Sun just took some nasty intrusive snaps of the German Chancellor and published them. It was the BBC that predicted there would be more headlines about the World Cup with reference to WWII.

I'm not holding today's generation of Germans accountable for WWII but just as Brits are still called 'limeys', centuries after the days of scurvy, Germany will be associated with the Nazis, along with bratvurst, efficency and beer.

But maybe the British tabloids will surprise us all this summer with restrained, informed articles about our partners in Europe.

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Friday, April 21, 2006 7:35 PM

SPACEPIRATEQUEEN


Thank you so very much for quoting Fawlty Towers.

That is all.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:03 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important




I'm afraid the Germans will be associated with Nazism for a long, long time. It's unjust. It's rude.

You might also note that people who have unjust or racist worldviews are referred to as Nazis, even though they have nothing to do with that old German political party. Rediculous, isn't it?

But take a page from history.

In Spanish, Mongolico is an insult referring to a stupid person.

In English, just one generation ago, the term Mongolian referred to someone with Down's syndrome.

Mongolian? Are we kidding, here?

In the 1200's, a bunch of 'barbarians' called Mongolians swept through much of Europe and made a lot of people very unhappy.

So 'stupid barbaric individual' got turned into Mongolian. Eventually anyone stupid was Mongolian. It's been over 700 years, and we still have the term.

How's that for a grudge that won't die?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:33 AM

SIMONWHO


The idea that because Germany lost, everyone within abandoned the ethics and beliefs of Nazism is naive to the extreme. To quote someone: "May have been the losing side. Not sure it was the wrong one."

The "Mongoid" jibe is obviously unjust but thankfully has now been relegated to a quirk of etymology.

Let's take a man who guards a camp where thousands of people die every day, simply for being Jewish. He does this job for years, never questioning, never challeging, always supporting the party that organises this act of genocide. His wife is a member of the party too and helps take part in the war effort that has so far overrun over a dozen countries that had offered no direct threat to her own nation.

They have three children.

What sort of children do monsters raise?

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:45 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
Let's take a man who guards a camp where thousands of people die every day, simply for being Jewish. He does this job for years, never questioning, never challeging, always supporting the party that organises this act of genocide. His wife is a member of the party too and helps take part in the war effort that has so far overrun over a dozen countries that had offered no direct threat to her own nation.

They have three children.

What sort of children do monsters raise?


Would you mind telling me what your point is with this remark? I want to be clear about it before I respond to it.

Just on a sidenote, it's not like most guards at concentration camps had a choice. Had they challenged what's going on or refused to do their job, they would have been demoted (if they were lucky), but usually seen as a traitor and incarcerated, or maybe even executed. Don't mistake "follow orders or die" with not having a moral objection to something.



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Saturday, April 22, 2006 10:55 AM

ICCLEDAMES


It doesn't mention the holocaust though and seems to focus on old football rivalries instead. Personally I wouldn't find it surprising to see a very similar article about any other nations' leader - the British media often go after the French, for example - not because of any post-war bitterness but simply because that's the way we are.

Did that make sense?

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:03 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important





Flawed Logic.

What sort of children do Monsters raise? Well, Monsters, of course!

Let's take the United States, for instance, and our 'Indian' (Native American) friends.

Indians are on territory the United States covets, so the Indians are relocated. They are relocated by the military. The military escorts the Indians on a thousand-plus mile march. Many Indians die enroute. US soldiers watch them die, knowing that their relocation is unjust, that their way of life is being destroyed, and that a significant percentage of their population is being obliterated.

The US soldiers who knew this, and participated in the relocation, they are clearly monsters.

What sort of children do Monsters raise?

Might want to look into your own history before you decide that Monsters breed Monsters. Or even before you decide what the apellation 'Monster' really is.

All of us have 'Monsters' in our pasts. Most of us can find those Monsters just a few generations distant.

Are we all Monsters, then?

What do they say about Glass Houses?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:08 AM

KHYRON


Iccledames:

It wasn't that article (the one by the Sun) I was complaining about, I was unhappy about what the last sentence of the BBC article predicts is going to happen:
Quote:

The Sun pictures of Angela Merkel look like the preliminary round in what is likely to be a series of British tabloid stories mocking the Germans in the run-up to the World Cup, being held in Germany this summer, most referring one way or another to World War II.

And this type of mocking is not just what probably is going to happen, it's been around for a while (it seems to come and go in phases, mostly when England is about to clash with Germany in a soccer match), and it's something that bothers me a lot, namely that the British media (even if it's only the tabloids), seems to take great pleasure out of making jokes about WWII, and mostly in the form of Nazi references, when it comes to making fun of Germans. I lived in Germany for a year and believe me, there are many ways, and far more apt ways, of making fun of Germans without being really hurtful and crude towards them by making jokes about WWII.


AnthonyT:

That's the logic I thought he was trying to apply but I wanted to give him a chance to think about it and maybe reconsider, since my response to it is far less than charitable.

His logic seems to be: (Germans during WWII were monsters) & (monsters beget monsters) => (Germans these days are monsters).

This is not only flawed for the reason you give, but incredibly narrow-minded and offensive (hell, I'm offended and I'm not even German). But I first want to hear his response to see if that's really what he meant before I call him a cunt.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:16 AM

SIMONWHO


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:

Would you mind telling me what your point is with this remark? I want to be clear about it before I respond to it.

Just on a sidenote, it's not like most guards at concentration camps had a choice. Had they challenged what's going on or refused to do their job, they would have been demoted (if they were lucky), but usually seen as a traitor and incarcerated, or maybe even executed. Don't mistake "follow orders or die" with not having a moral objection to something.



Every human being has a choice. If you tell me to help kill 1000 innocent people, even under the threat of death, I would refuse. I am not a murderer and I would rather die, or rather, I'd choose to fight. You're seriously suggesting that it was all right for concentration camp guards to help with mass slaughter for fear of being demoted?

And my point was quite simple. What sort of children do monsters raise? What lessons do they teach about right and wrong? What attitudes will their children have to the world?

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:29 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


It appears that Simonwho is descended from a remarkable race of people who never did anything Monstrous, but were rather deposited on this Earth by a benevolent being who created and maintained them as perfect entities of light and justice.

Because otherwise, by Simonwho's logic, anyone in his past who was involved in Monstrosity (or even did nothing to prevent a Monstrosity occuring around them) are themselves Monsters, and they begat Monsters, and Simonwho is a Monster today.

What a Mongolian!

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:49 AM

SIMONWHO


You know, this is a discussion forum. If you believe that there's no link between the generation of Germany 60 years ago and today's Germany, argue the case. Make a coherent set of points such as:

1) The vast majority of Germans had turned against the Nazi ideology by 1945.

2) Post-war Germany deliberately wiped out all traces of Nazism as far as they were able to.

3) There are numerous laws in place to restrict any growth of Nazism, including the banning of Nazi memorabilia, the Swastika in visual media and publication of Nazi documents.

4) Germany has been one of the great democratic influences in Eastern Europe, bringing true power to the people.

5) Germany has also been instrumental in the European Union, ensuring peaceful coexistence among nations.

I'm sure you can think of many others. But if you can't be bothered, if you'd rather just throw insults around, I'm not going to play devil's advocate with you anymore.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:07 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
You know, this is a discussion forum. If you believe that there's no link between the generation of Germany 60 years ago and today's Germany, argue the case.


You're joking, right? Anybody that says there's a difference between German society now and 60 years ago has to prove his point? It's you, as somebody that seems to think otherwise, that should be coming up with arguments to prove your point, which, incidentally, you haven't done.
Quote:

Make a coherent set of points...


I think I did, but not towards the sort of argument you seem to have been expecting from me. I never had the intention of proving a difference between now and then since to me that's something that doesn't require explicit proof.
Quote:

1) The vast majority of Germans had turned against the Nazi ideology by 1945.

2) Post-war Germany deliberately wiped out all traces of Nazism as far as they were able to.

3) There are numerous laws in place to restrict any growth of Nazism, including the banning of Nazi memorabilia, the Swastika in visual media and publication of Nazi documents.

4) Germany has been one of the great democratic influences in Eastern Europe, bringing true power to the people.

5) Germany has also been instrumental in the European Union, ensuring peaceful coexistence among nations.


That was really well said. Even if I felt it necessary to make a list like this, I couldn't have done a better job myself. So, since this was what you were waiting for, where is your objection to any of these points?
Quote:

I'm not going to play devil's advocate with you anymore.

Oh, is that what you were doing? Right...



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:08 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


SimonWho,

Clearly, you missed the ironic humor of me saying what a Mongolic term 'Mongolian' was to refer to stupid people, and then using it myself on the same day.

In any event, I don't need to argue the merits of Germany. I only need to argue the merits of your argument, which stated that anyone who

1) Conducts Monstrous Acts or
2) Stands by while Monstrous Acts are conducted

Is

3) A Monster

And

4) Breeds Monsters.

Leading to the inevitable conclusion that you are

A) descended from a long line of perfect people

Or

B) a Monster


See how that works? Germany doesn't even need to get involved in the analysis of your argument.

Now you also said you'd rather die than allow such a Monstrosity to occur, which is laudable. I hope we all would (But I know we all wouldn't.)

But I'm so glad you were simply playing Devil's Advocate, and don't actually believe anything you said.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:27 PM

SIMONWHO


Well, maybe I was just arguing the other side, maybe I wasn't, it doesn't really matter. All I'm expecting is a cogent argument which I don't think we've had. All I've seen is "It's a different generation therefore they're totally different" and personal insults.

I don't see how anyone can complain about insults in newspapers when they're calling others on a personal forums a moron or a c***.

And just because someone's not perfect, that doesn't mean they're a monster, which rather destroys your counterargument. Besides, I only raised the question - what sort of child do two monsters raise?

I'd be interested in your answer if you can keep a civil tongue.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:40 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


SimonWho,

Since you're not in for the funny today, and since you might *not* be playing devil's advocate, I'll argue this out with you like you want.

Monsters raise all kinds of children.

Your turn.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:40 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
All I'm expecting is a cogent argument which I don't think we've had. All I've seen is "It's a different generation therefore they're totally different"


The main point (you missed it, it seems) was that Germans today aren't Nazis and for the most part find any such insinuations very offensive.
Quote:

And just because someone's not perfect, that doesn't mean they're a monster, which rather destroys your counterargument.

I didn't make a proper counterargument because I'm still not sure what your answer is to this:
Quote:

Besides, I only raised the question - what sort of child do two monsters raise?

What exactly was your point with that? You seem not want to say what you meant and then when other people apparently interpret it wrong, you say "your counterargument is wrong, try again".
Quote:

I'd be interested in your answer if you can keep a civil tongue.

You seem to be focussing on the insults and implying that those were the only "arguments" I had. Well, I said plenty of other stuff that seem to have been ignored, so if insulting you is the only thing that gets your attention maybe I should do it more often.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:00 PM

SIMONWHO


No, I'm saying that you can't ask one group of people to be polite "because we should be fair" and then call somebody who disagrees with you "a c***". In fact, I've not seen anyone use that term here, not even to describe Fox executives.

And now you seem to be under the impression that insulting people is the way to get their attention. Which is surely what you were arguing against in the first place.

Either way, I'm going to find a more interesting discussion.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Aww man.

Now he's leaving.

I'll never know how he was going to respond to, "Monsters have all kinds of children."

This is your fault, Khyron, you Mongolian!

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:08 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
No, I'm saying that you can't ask one group of people to be polite "because we should be fair" and then call somebody who disagrees with you "a c***".


Is that what I did? I don't recall that being the case, I was calling you that because you seem to have been implying that Germans are monsters (feel free to let me know what it is you really meant, I've asked you a couple of times already). I certainly didn't call you that for disagreeing with me, I was calling you that for what you seem to have been saying about Germans.
Quote:

And now you seem to be under the impression that insulting people is the way to get their attention. Which is surely what you were arguing against in the first place.

You do have a remarkable talent for taking things out of context. Besides:
Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
AnthonyT:

That's the logic I thought he was trying to apply but I wanted to give him a chance to think about it and maybe reconsider, since my response to it is far less than charitable.

His logic seems to be: (Germans during WWII were monsters) & (monsters beget monsters) => (Germans these days are monsters).

This is not only flawed for the reason you give, but incredibly narrow-minded and offensive (hell, I'm offended and I'm not even German). But I first want to hear his response to see if that's really what he meant before I call him a c***.


So I was calling you a c*** IF that's what you meant by that comment with monsters. Since you seem to have taken the insult for what it is, it seems you admit that you feel Germans these days are monsters. And in that case, in my opinion the insult is justified. No need to defend myself for it.
Quote:

Either way, I'm going to find a more interesting discussion.

Please do, I don't know how get through to somebody who seems to be a bigot, and trying to do so is quite tiring.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:09 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
This is your fault, Khyron, you Mongolian!


I'll have you know, calling me Mongolian is an insult to the Mongolian community .



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:14 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Give a cigar to the man with a sense of humor. :-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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