REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Katrina-related accusations Part II

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 09:58
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Thursday, March 2, 2006 11:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


My temper is not what it used to be. I'm quite frankly fed up with Bush apologists who minimize at every turn Bush and his henchmen's (or is it Cheney and his henchmen's) perfectly deliberate and fully-aware complicity in the biggest disasters of their reign. Katrina is only one of these many disasters.

This is not "bureaucracy-as-usual" incompetence. The videotapes of Bush's disengaged- one might even say glazed- response to looming disaster, and his effing excuses ("No one could have predicted....") for failure, are remarkably similar to Secretary O'Neill's first-hand account of a President who appears swamped by anything that requires an actual decision.
Quote:

Policy decisions are determined not by careful weighing of an issue's complexities; rather, they're dictated by a cabal of ideologues and political advisors operating outside the view of top cabinet officials. The President is not a fully engaged administrator but an enigma who is, at best, guarded and poker-faced but at worst, uncurious, unintelligent, and a puppet of larger forces
You may recall that O'Neill was pillored at every turn by Rove for this disclosure that should have warned you that this Administration is actually run by someone else.

Say what you will in Bush's defense, his administration has racked up a string of f*ckups so immense (which migh even include destabilzing the whole world) that it will take years... generations... to set things right.
Quote:

In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees, risk lives in New Orleans' Superdome and overwhelm rescuers, according to confidential video footage of the briefings.

Bush didn't ask a single question during the final government-wide briefing the day before Katrina struck on Aug. 29 but assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: "We are fully prepared."
...Linked by secure video, Bush's bravado on Aug. 29 starkly contrasts with the dire warnings his disaster chief and a cacophony of federal, state and local officials provided during the four days before the storm.

A top hurricane expert voiced "grave concerns" about the levees and then-Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown told the president and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff that he feared there weren't enough disaster teams to help evacuees at the Superdome.
...Bush declared four days after the storm, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" that gushed deadly flood waters into New Orleans. But the transcripts and video show there was plenty of talk about that possibility -- and Bush was worried too.



LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!!!



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Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 2:03 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Please provide some links or cites for your qoutes.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 2:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oops. Apparently I was so incensed I only saw red!

quote on Katrina:
www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-na-katrina2mar02,0,3162103.story

The quote on O'Neill's book was from Amazon.com, which won't open up right now. It was the easiest quote source, but I DO have the book at home and I can verify that's what the book says.

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Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 3:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Once again, your delusion has unhinged you. Bush didn't lie. Nothing on these videos is anything new, it was all released months ago, in transcript form. This is nothing more than a clear attempt by the Left wing media to , once again, vilify Bush and gloss over the real incompetent fools of this fiasco, Mayor Nagin and Gov. Blanco/

" Costumes included the fanciful and the satirical. There were numerous T-shirts poking fun at the Federal Emergency Management Agency and various politicians. Some bore vulgar or obscene messages. Among the clean ones, aimed at Mayor Ray Nagin: "Drink until Nagin Makes Sense." "








People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 6:05 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Once again, your delusion has unhinged you. Bush didn't lie.



Could you maybe quickly clear me up on how he didn't lie? There are numerous sources saying that he did indeed lie, and so I think the statement 'Bush didn't lie' needs a proof or clarification of some sort.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 6:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Possibly Auraptor got lost in the several sentences between one part of the article and the other.

"Federal disaster officials warned President Bush...that the storm could breach levees...

Bush declared four days after the storm, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees""

Clear enough, Auraptor?

But, what can I say? He thinks Cheney's the next best thing to sliced bread. I've come to realize that not all impairments can be corrected.



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Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 7:33 PM

DREAMTROVE


I actually recognized O'Neill's quote from his book, Price of Loyalty. He's a good man, Paul O'Neill. He's a traditional republican, unlike these people who brought they're extremist global agenda to the party.

As far as argue with the Bush crowd, they don't have a position. There's nothing there to argue. They are following blindly whereever Beloved Leader takes them. It's my humble opinion that BL is leading them down the garden path to rape them, rob them, and sell the off for dogfood. So, I guess I think my refined response is B-A-A-A-A!

I guess it's the political equivalent of this cartoon which failed to spark a crusade:



So, rather than worry about them and their certain doom, why don't we just organize to marginalize them out of political existance? I figure the moderate sensible republicans and moderate sensible democrats outnumber the pro-executive portions of the two parties, and we could probably force the issue.

The GOP, for example is made up of a handful of key voting blocks which can probably be easily maneuvered to an anti-executive position. The christian right needs only be convinced that Bush is Clinton, and a few choice pieces of PN's stories of child-rape and dead hookers, and I figure there's at least one or two which is actually true, wil have them denouncing Bush as the AntiChrist. Then there's the fiscal conservative set, well moneyed, educated, and perfectly aware that this is not what they got on board with. Finally there's the America, love it or leave it crowd, who just need to be shown how Bush/Clinton and the overarching executive has weakened America, encouraged and facilitated 9/11, and is now selling US ports and munitions operations.

BTW, in case someone wanted to but in here with a 'yay Bush, we must follow Bush, follow Beloved Leader B-A-A-A-A-A!' --- Don't. Don't even bother, it's a waste of my time and yours. If you want to debate some other political point, fine. But I've had it with 'Why Bush is right' arguments. Bush is never right. Bush is a crook. The guy who breaks into your house, steals your money and kills your dog might have an endless number of excuses and explanations as to why things happened the way they did. We're just not interested. End of story.

I don't mean to stifle debate, I aim to foster a new debate, but this old "Why Bush is right" debate has died. It's like the "Why we should institute communism" and "Why creationists were right." Any effort spent going there is taking time from something for which time is better spent, which includes anything else, anything at all. I'm more ready to hear the argument of "Why Bin Laden is right" which I intend to disagree with, but at least it hasn't been heard before.

Okay, that over with, how about organizing a new discussion of a way to cooperate on something I think we can agree on: An end to the march of executive power. Once we rest power from the executive, we can disagree on other issues, and then fight those out in congress later on.


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Thursday, March 2, 2006 8:50 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


I don’t know how credible O’Neill is. Despite the fact that he has recanted his “vivid language” in his book, there is a serious impropriety issues associated with his dissemination of classified information to the media.

As for this “[[]n[]]ewly released video footage,” it was actually from a conference that was largely open to the public and the complete transcripts were provided to Congress last fall. And Mayfield’s complete quote from the 28 August conference call to President Bush is left out of the LA times source. What he actually said was “I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very grave concern.” In other words, Mayfield was unable to state with any confidence that the levies would be topped, much less actually breached, and he could offer nothing more then the “very, very grave concern” that a hurricane the levies weren’t rated for might cause them to fail. An evidently, widely known and unfortunately widely ignored concern, but that doesn’t mean that anyone anticipated it. Max Mayfield is the director of the National Hurricane Center and the closest he could get to ‘anticipating’ a failure was a broad statement without confidence. I can give you broad statements without confidence on just about anything any day of the week; it can be very difficult to justify mobilizing forces to defend against broad unconfident concerns, even though in hindsight sometimes we might wish we had. [[]1[]]

That was the day before Katrina landed, the day of the event things were even muddier. Gov. Blanco in a conference with Brown stated, "We heard a report unconfirmed, I think, we have not breached the levee. I think we have not breached the levee at this time." At the time she made that comment, the levies may have already have failed, but I don’t think that anyone can expect her to have obtained information in real time concerning the failure of the levies. That’s simply an impossible standard to apply to emergency recovery.

As far as Bush not knowing or being involved, according to Brown [[]2[]]:
Quote:

[[]Brown[]] implored officials to "push the envelope as far as you can," noting that he had already spoken to President Bush twice that day and described the president as "very, very interested in this situation."
"He's very engaged, and he's asking a lot of really good questions I would expect him to ask," Brown said of Bush. "I say that only because I want everyone to recognize ... how serious the situation remains."
Brown has criticized the White House for miscommunication that led to some delays but said in an interview Thursday that he never directly blamed Bush.
"I think the president was confident in the ability of FEMA to respond to this, and what I should have done was go to them earlier and say, 'Let's not wait to see how it unfolds. Let's bring everything and go overboard."'



Bush was overconfident in his delegation of authority. Both Brown and Blanco were too reserved. There were failures at all levels, but I’m not sure that any of it represents gross negligence as much as the systemic complexity of dealing with massive catastrophes in real-time. But certainly without a doubt, accusing Bush of lying because he didn’t take a broad unconfident concern as gospel is partisan nonsense.

[[]1[]] http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186553,00.html
[[]2[]] http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186688,00.html




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 11:55 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn Mac Cuhmal:
I can give you broad statements without confidence on just about anything any day of the week; it can be very difficult to justify mobilizing forces to defend against broad unconfident concerns, even though in hindsight sometimes we might wish we had.


I almost thought you were talking about the Iraq war then...

Bye



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Friday, March 3, 2006 2:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


WOW, nobody "anticipated" the failure of the levees? What is your definition of "anticipate"? So, I went to the web dictionary, and here are the top five common defintions of "anticipate":

1) Expect: regard something as probable or likely
2) Act in advance of; deal with ahead of time
3) Realize beforehand
4) Predict: make a prediction about; tell in advance;
5)Be excited or anxious about

I don't see anywhere in these definitions that "anticipation" requires bitch-slapping Bush or Chertoff from here to next Wednesday while screaming "The levees will fail!!!" in order to "anticipate" their failure.

But you could always use the Rumsfeld defense for not "anticipating" Iraq insurgency: Well, there's what we know we know, and what we know we don't know, and then there's what we don't know that we don't know... And nobody could have anticipated flying airplanes into buildings. So, yup, blame bad intelligence. Seems to be the administration's theme song, and yours too.



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Friday, March 3, 2006 3:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BTW, I thought I'd bring this up:

Quote:

The Louisiana bayou, hardest working marsh in America, is in big trouble—with dire consequences for residents, the nearby city of New Orleans, and seafood lovers everywhere.

It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.

But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however—the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.

The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

This was publised in that alarmist left-wing magazine, the National Geographic, in 2004. cryptome.org/nola-breach.htm

Apparently disaster was not only predicted by National Geographic (and even FEMA, years in advance of the event) but also by FEMA just hours before landfall

Quote:

WASHINGTON -- As Hurricane Katrina approached the Gulf Coast, President Bush's top disaster agency warned of the likelihood of levee breaches that could leave New Orleans submerged "for weeks or months," a communications blackout that would hamper rescue efforts and "at least 100,000 poverty-stricken people" stranded in the city.

Those remarkably accurate predictions were in a 40-page "Fast Analysis Report" compiled by the Department of Homeland Security on Aug. 28. Documents show that the report was sent by e-mail to the White House Situation Room at 1:47 a.m. on Aug. 29, hours before the deadly storm made landfall.

It would be interesting to see that report in detail.

Yes, I will admit that many people breathed a small sigh of relief when Katrina lost a little strength and shifted course slightly. For a half-day, it looked as though NOLA had escaped the disaster that was widely anticipated by the media and by the public and by everyone except maybe the President.

What I see here is a series of interlocking failures: A President who apparently doesn't have even enough "general knowledge" to make decisions w/o Cheney. Staff who is unwilling to bring bad news to the President (who is conistently reported by insiders to be disengaged except when he's enraged). Appointment of political supporters and hangers-on in top postions of authority and responsibility. (I found it ironic that Brown's answer to disaster was to kick the problem upstairs rather than taking the reins of his position.) And the worst problem of all: Failure to react to and plan for anything other than the most optimistic set of circumstances. The time to start planning for a disaster of that magnitude is not hours before it happens, when it appears that things might not go as badly as widely anticipated. If a response was not in place by the time that briefing had taken place it was already too late.

BTW- I give Bush a "pass" on a lot of things. The guy is cognitively impaired, and he isn't in charge anyway.

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Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 3:45 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

I don’t know how credible O’Neill is. Despite the fact that he has recanted his “vivid language” in his book, there is a serious impropriety issues associated with his dissemination of classified information to the media.


I saw an interview with him recently. He didn't seem too apologetic in the interview. His appropriation of information was I think as much for his own protection as anything. It certainly doesn't call his creidibility into question. His loyalty maybe, but not his credibility.


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Friday, March 3, 2006 4:18 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
What I see here is a series of interlocking failures: A President who apparently doesn't have even enough "general knowledge" to make decisions



You only see what you want to see. Did Bush make a mistake? Yes. The mistake was relying on state and local Democratic officials whose competence was matched only by their common sense.

On one hand you have a Mayor refusing to use local resources to evacuate his people, sending away empty passanger trains and leaving a thousand buses to be destroyed while gathering tens of thousands of his citizens in locations that were neither safe nor supplied.

On the other hand you have a Governor who was paralyzed with inaction and completely out of her depth and whose only effective act in the days leading up to the storm until several days after the levees breached, was to convince the President and Federal disaster agencies that the levees had not breached. < http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KATRINA_VIDEO?SITE=7219&SECTION
=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-02-21-00-56
>

Lesson? Don't rely on Democrats in a crisis.

Now a bit of pure speculation. I suspect that the vast majority of those who either evacuated before the storm or who walked to safety after the storm were Republicans or conservative Democrats. The ones who stayed and waited for rescure or committed violence and looting were liberal Democrats (or would be if they could or would vote).

H

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Friday, March 3, 2006 6:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Once again, your delusion has unhinged you. Bush didn't lie.



Could you maybe quickly clear me up on how he didn't lie? There are numerous sources saying that he did indeed lie, and so I think the statement 'Bush didn't lie' needs a proof or clarification of some sort.



National Hurricane Director Mayfield said that there was some 'concern' that the levees could be topped. Topped means that there could be some overflow , which NO as a city is prepared for, having pumps and drainage systems designed to take care of that. What WASN'T said was the levees could BREECH, which is a engineering failure of the levee structure. No where does the Mayfield say anything about levee breeching. Thus , Bush didn't lie.

Even so, was it a stupid thing to say ? Probably so. For years, the residents of N.O. have joked about the levees failing, and how unprepared the Gov't was to deal w/ such an event. They took it in stride, though...much like folks in California deal w/ earthquakes or mudslides.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 3, 2006 7:38 AM

BARNSTORMER


Yes, exactly.

Those super secret video's that were obtained with obviously great risk by the main stream media had been released months ago.

Wheres the secret?

If anything, these videos vindicate former FEMA director Brown, and the rest of the Fed Government.

It's funny how the Ultra Liberal kooks have to substitute words like "breeched" for the actual words like "Topped" to make some BS point.

So who's actually doing the lying, huh?



Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Friday, March 3, 2006 7:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The mistake was relying on state and local Democratic officials whose competence was matched only by their common sense.
Let's see- you have a category 5 hurricane bearing straight down on a city, 80% of which is below sea level, and you expect that "the locals" can take care of it? Then you and Bush are both guilty of the same thing. If I were you, I'd stick with the "bad intelligence" excuse.


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Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 7:52 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
You only see what you want to see. Did Bush make a mistake? Yes. The mistake was relying on state and local Democratic officials whose competence was matched only by their common sense.

On one hand you have a Mayor refusing to use local resources to evacuate his people, sending away empty passanger trains and leaving a thousand buses to be destroyed while gathering tens of thousands of his citizens in locations that were neither safe nor supplied.



But according to the Department of Homeland Security Website it was the responsibility of that (Federal) organisation to deal with this situation not the Local and State Government.

From the Website:

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st [2005] for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS."

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, March 3, 2006 8:47 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Thanks for the thread Signy. Everything that happened around Katrina doesn't get less important. I'm glad people are keeping the lights turned on this failure of conscience on every level.

BTW I've read the Price of Loyalty, and felt that it had some great insight into this administration and it's inability to recognize 'the right thing'.

I brought some pictures from one of my favorite photographers, of post-Katrina NO, and coincidentally, Dubai, the area around Chernoble, and Havana. Robert Polidori is always walking over the rubble for a photo.

http://www.jmcolberg.com/weblog/archives/000680.html





Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 9:11 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Let's see- you have a category 5 hurricane bearing straight down on a city, 80% of which is below sea level, and you expect that "the locals" can take care of it?


Federal Level: "Oh my God we have a huge hurricane coming to New Orleans, what do we do?"
"Lets start by prepositioning assets and getting the Governor to allow us in to take charge of relief efforts. And somebody get them to start evacuating..."
(In other words pointing at the big map and saying 'go there' to FEMA and the Military and such.)

Local level: "Oh my God we have a huge hurricane coming to New Orleans, what to we do?"
"Joe, get over to the bus yard and fire up the 1000 school buses and evacuate 20,000 people. Jack, make sure there's food stockpiled here, here, and here. Do this with the police and that with the hospitals, and lets activate our plan to evacuate the elderly people."
(In other words, pointing at the map of the city and tell Joe, Jack, and everybody else where to go and what to do. Nagin didn't do much of that.)

What really happened locally was more like: "Joe, make sure my family and our belongings get out of the City. Jack send everbody to the Superdome, tell them not to worry. Somebody find me a TV camera so I can complain about the President. And for God's sake, make sure those buses stay where they are and are not used to evacuate a single elederly person, child, or pregnant woman."
(In other words nothing was done at the local level with the exception of taking care of themselves and covering their own asses.)

H

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Friday, March 3, 2006 9:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Bullshit, pure and simple.

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Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 9:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Bullshit, pure and simple.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.



Here's some of the busses.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/new-orleans_bus-comp01
.htm


and some more:



Whereas here's some being used to evacuate Galveston.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=110215

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, March 3, 2006 10:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Geezer, Hero said that "nothing" was done. That was what I was responding to. Both the Mayor and the Governor took action. Was it always effective? No. Was it "nothing"? No.

In order for the buses to have been used, the bus DRIVERS would have to have been available. Bus drivers are city employees and/ or school district employees. (I'm not sure whether the NOLA Mayor controls the school district or not). The problem is that once an evacuation is ordered, you can't force bus drivers to work when they're supposed to be evacuating themselves.

The sequence would have to be that the bus drivers would be working during the voluntary evacuation, but would have to abandon their duties once a mandatory evacuation is ordered. At that point, the duties would have to be turned over to volunteers (which is what happened both in Galveston www.houstonisd.org/HISD/portal/article/front/0,2731,20856_90333894_129
584027,00.html
and NOLA) or to National Guard and other emergency/ hazard trained personnel.

Does anyone see any way around that scenario? Geezer? Hero? Auraptor? Whomever???

Let me repeat that: Does anyone see any way around that scenario?

If not, will you please stop bringing up the "the buses"? It's stupid.

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Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 11:04 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, Hero said that "nothing" was done. That was what I was responding to. Both the Mayor and the Governor took action. Was it always effective? No. Was it "nothing"? No.


Your right. I said nothing was done and I was wrong. Nagin did a great deal, and the Governor substantially less. "Nothing" is what it all amounted to.
Quote:


In order for the buses to have been used, the bus DRIVERS would have to have been available.

Does anyone see any way around that scenario? Geezer? Hero? Auraptor? Whomever???

Let me repeat that: Does anyone see any way around that scenario?

If not, will you please stop bringing up the "the buses"? It's stupid.


Well there is always planning. The City and State both had emergency plans gathering dust in the back corner of their office closet. They could have said, "hmm, how do we evacuate an extra 20,000 people with no means of getting out themselves? Well, we do have that lots with the 1,000 buses..."

Come on, its like when the Iraqi Public Relations guy was saying the Americans were nowhere near Baghdad when the Marines were standing in the window behind him with a big "HI MOM' sign; there's Nagin standing a mile away from a 1,000 flooded buses demanding buses.

You don't think they could have found a thousand drivers? How about one? They didn't even find one. Why, because they had a failure of imagination. Busses, people...do the math. 1,000 buses is easily 20,000 people gone Sunday afternoon, 24 hours before the levy breached. Or even better, screw the Superdome idiots who didn't heed warnings or try to escape...drive the buses to the hospitals and nursing homes to get the people who really can't get out.

Stop blaming people thousands of miles away for not seeing one problem (New Orleans flooding) when Nagin ignored or mishandled a thousand problems from one just mile away.

Katrina taught us that Homeland Security cannot rely on the extrodanary efforts of ordinary people such as we had in New York on 9/11 (demostrated again by their response to the blackout). It also showed that we could not rely on outstanding local leadership. Those things are nice to have , but in New Orleans and Louisiana as a whole and ulike what happened in other states, local leadership was completely ineffective and Homeland Security needs to plan accordingly.

H

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Friday, March 3, 2006 12:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Eh, well first of all, they didn't have anywhere near 1000 buses at their disposal. Between the city and school buses they had mebbe 500-600 working buses.
Quote:

You don't think they could have found a thousand drivers? How about one? They didn't even find one.
Nagin did call for volunteer drivers, and buses were busy transporting people to shelters throughout Saurday and Sunday. And the NOLA emergency plan specifically said that the primary means of evacuation will be the automobile. This is what they said about their bus situation:

Quote:

According to RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook, an RTA emergency plan would supply 64 buses and 10 lift vans to transport people, either out of town or to local shelters. Its largest buses hold about 60 people each. However, city officials emphasize that the city is overmatched: “It's important to emphasize that we just don't have the resources to take everybody out,” says New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Director Joseph Matthews. [Times-Picayune, 7/24/2005] In July 2005, Cook will warn officials that only 100 RTA buses will likely be available for a possible evacuation because the RTA will need to continue its regular operations until shut down by a city curfew. Bus availability will be further limited by the number of volunteer drivers who would agree to drive them away, she says. Moreover, even if the RTA's entire 364-bus fleet is deployed, it could evacuate only about 22,000 people—less than one-fifth of those needing transportation. [Times-Picayune, 7/08/2005]


Get your facts straight before you post. I suggest that you read this in detail before you post again. www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=hurricane_katrina&ka
trina_organization=katrina_louisianaNOLA


Also, since Bush declared a national disaster before Katrina struck, FEMA was in charge. At this point, I'm not going to debate "the buses" with you folks any longer, since it's crystal clear to me- and to anyone else reading this post- that not only do you have not a clue about what happened, you haven't bothered to find out. Further comment on your part is- I assume- just misdirection and fabrication.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 12:47 PM

DREAMTROVE


Max Mayfield said breach, I heard him say it before the storm hit. He may not have said it to the president, he didn't say it in the briefing.

Quote:

Yes. The mistake was relying on state and local Democratic officials whose competence was matched only by their common sense.


I really agree. Let's can 'em all.

Actually, what happened locally was Nagin, when asked what his principle concerns were with evacuation, a day before Katrina hit, saying "I'm really not that concerned with evacuating people. I'm much more concerned with the oil facilities." He then went into a long and detailed explanation, about 5 minutes about how a temporary shutdown could hurt the economy. When asked again about the people he didn't have more than a sentence or two to say about them, and no interest at all in evacuating them. Later he suggested that everyone get out under their own steam, by car, to "a relative's." If you tried to leave on foot you were stopped. I'm getting in line to can Ray Nagin.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 1:01 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
WOW, nobody "anticipated" the failure of the levees? What is your definition of "anticipate"? So, I went to the web dictionary, and here are the top five common defintions of "anticipate":.

I would say that ‘anticipate’ is synonymous with ‘expect’ or ‘predict.’ Did anyone ‘expect’ the levees to break? I don’t know, but the best that the director of the National Hurricane Center could say was that it couldn’t be expected to happen with any confidence. That doesn’t sound very predictive to me. I consider the crash of an airplane I’m riding in to be a “very, very grave concern,” though it stands to reason that in all the flights I’ve taken, and I routinely fly to Washington DC, Boston and Albuquerque, I have never had any expectation that the plane would crash. And planes crash far more frequently then the New Orleans’ levees break. Yet, if every time I got on a plane I anticipated its crash, I would be, rightly so, regarded as somewhat paranoid. So there doesn’t seem to be any reason to doubt that President Bush was truthful when he said that no one could have predicted that the levees would break, because clearly if anyone could have, then one imagines, it would be the director of the National Hurricane Center when he briefed the President, and he clearly stated that he could not.
Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I saw an interview with him recently. He didn't seem too apologetic in the interview. His appropriation of information was I think as much for his own protection as anything. It certainly doesn't call his creidibility into question. His loyalty maybe, but not his credibility.

I think he did it to sell a book. He was trying to sensationalize his opinions by promoting some authority of classified information. That’s why he went on tv and brandished a document marked ‘secret.’ He was trying to advertise that he ‘had the scoop’ so buy his book. But what he really did, from my vantage, was paint himself as untrustworthy.

It's worth pointing out though, that O’Neill was absolved of any criminal activity by the DoJ.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, March 3, 2006 7:21 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

I think he did it to sell a book. He was trying to sensationalize his opinions by promoting some authority of classified information. That’s why he went on tv and brandished a document marked ‘secret.’ He was trying to advertise that he ‘had the scoop’ so buy his book. But what he really did, from my vantage, was paint himself as untrustworthy.

It's worth pointing out though, that O’Neill was absolved of any criminal activity by the DoJ.



O'Neill is far from never wrong, and he does tend to portray himself as more of an idealist than he is, but he's someone I pay attention to, an dhe seem to me a pragmatic and deliberate sort of person. I don't think he cares anything for personal fame, so selling the book is about promoting his ideas.

He's very goldwater conservative, and he wants to see the party move back to that position, which is sort of his aim. I figure most people who are out purveying information for public scrutiny have an agenda of some sort, and the fact that I more or less agree with this one helps, for me, but also, I think it's fairly out in the open, he's said it a number of times.

This is different from, say, random christian websites that never mention that they're christians, but pretend to be science sites or something to try to discredit other argument, or plenty of other mis-information sites out there.

I think if anything, O'Neills errors tend to portray the adminstration as more ideolgical, and less corrupt, because it fits his agenda. It's the ideological direction that he objects to, and exposing the corruption would serve to discredit the GOP as a whole more than just Bush and Co, and he really doesn't want to do that.

Myself I think the Bush admin is a mix of ideology and corruption. The ideology is very old school socialist/corporatist, with an agressive globalist stance, and the corruption is just mindbogglingly corrupt. I know why it is this way also. Bush, or rather Cheney, and Co, have an agenda which is nowhere near the mainstream of American political debate, and to get anyone to forward that agenda, they essentially have to bribe them. On a completely level open board, no American senate is going to pass a blatantly global socialist agenda.

My own position is I object to both parts of it, the ideological part, and the corrupt part. I can't really pick one vs. the other, I guess I oppose them equally. The ideology is leading the US into a combative relationship with the rest of the world which I think is blatantly destructive to America, her image, stability, safety, and the international economy. The corruption I see as causing a cascade of deficit spending to cover the overcharges, spiraling into a whirlpool of endless debt recycling, until a radical restructuring will be forced, and this will result in a drastic national and international reaction which will cause an economic collapse which will make the great depression look like a picnic.

And I'm serious about that last part. Technically, according to all the figures I've read, our current economic stance is more or less at the same level as the great depression. But I have no reason to believe this is the low. Instead, I think we're on the top of a really scary cliff, which leads to somewhere the US economy hasn't been in at least a century, if ever. But plenty of places have been there before. Russia, recently, Germany in the depression, Haiti every single day of its existance.

Between the two, I don't see much to choose from. Ultimately, the problem is worse than just that Bush/Cheney need to be fired tomorrow. Or Yesterday. But the whole slew of party leadership in both parties needs to change drastically. There's nothing that's being forwarded by anyone in the leadership of either side right now that is going to do enough to steer us away from either collision course, the global conflict one, or the economic collapse.

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Saturday, March 4, 2006 5:59 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Between the two, I don't see much to choose from. Ultimately, the problem is worse than just that Bush/Cheney need to be fired tomorrow. Or Yesterday. But the whole slew of party leadership in both parties needs to change drastically. There's nothing that's being forwarded by anyone in the leadership of either side right now that is going to do enough to steer us away from either collision course, the global conflict one, or the economic collapse.

I’m not inclined to see things so dire, but for the first time in a while I actually read all the way through one of your posts. You’ve made some very lucid, albeit very pessimistic, comments that make me feel that I perhaps should give O’Neill a second look. Maybe I’ll read his book, which I had previously written off as a waste of time.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, March 4, 2006 6:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The only person I've seen address the scary stuff from his Senate seat is Feingold. Frankly, I don't think McCain is up to it. And Condi? She's part of the problem.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Saturday, March 4, 2006 6:33 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Finn:

I’m not inclined to see things so dire, but for the first time in a while I actually read all the way through one of your posts.



Yeah, I spent a week or two there just ranting. I think I was very angry, but I'm over that now. It's what happens when things don't match up to your world view. I've adjusted now to a much more pessimistic and cynical outlook. I guess I'm becoming skeptical that democracy works at all. The problems with Tony Blair in the Uk and other places aroung the world, it's fairly troublesome.

Quote:

Finn:

You’ve made some very lucid, albeit very pessimistic, comments that make me feel that I perhaps should give O’Neill a second look. Maybe I’ll read his book, which I had previously written off as a waste of time.



Take a look. There's a fair amount of shameless self promotion, but in the midst of it there's a fairly on target dipiction of the decay of process.

Quote:

Sigmym:

The only person I've seen address the scary stuff from his Senate seat is Feingold. Frankly, I don't think McCain is up to it. And Condi? She's part of the problem.



Feingold has been good on it, but he takes a little too much of a democrat approach. He sounds off, opposes completelly and directly, and loses. He looks good doing it, but accomplishes little actual change.

The republicans may sound very mild mannered in their objections when compared with the fiery democratic rhetoric, but when you look at the effect, they've actually accomplished more legislative resistance.

Outside, in closed session, at lunch, you can bet that John Sununu feels exactly the same way about the patriot act as Russ Feingold. Even in open session, he as much as said 'I wish you were president, Mr. Feingold, but you're not.' Which btw, doesn't make him 'less republican.' The thing is that Sununu's point is that he can compromise with the administration and get a 90-10 split in the administration's favor, and make 10% progress; or he could stand on principle like Feingold and get 0% progress.

Another republican resistance approach is 'weather the storm.' At the moment, Bush is strong, and opposing him is tricky. Bush is always stronger than another president might be, in terms of his grip on power, and whether or not he's popular isn't the point. If at some point in the future, Bush is in the trick position where he can't afford to oppose or veto the voice of reason, things will change. Like in the middle of impeachment proceedings based on the overreach of the executive, it would be politically impossible for Bush to block legislation limiting executive power, because that would prove the impeachers right.

Arlen Spector has constructed legislation that will enact Feingold's reforms, but he's not introducing it yet. He is most likely going to wait, not probably until an impeachment, but until there's a Bush weakpoint. When the NSA wiretap scandal broke you saw legslation fly, and earlier on other crisis. At the moment Bush is holding the purse strings to the '06 election. But waiting for the Bush administration to screw up is like waiting for spring. You know it's going to happen, even when it seems like it might not, because this is a clockwork failure machine. Failing is what it does best.

But I don't think that the GOP Senators are even 'closer to Bush' than the demcorats, they're just more pragmatic about it. The current balance of power is about 90% in the hands of the executive, as witness the compromise Sununu worked out with the whitehouse. It's not that Sununu opposes the whitehouse 10% on civil liberties, he opposes them 100%, he as much as said so. But 10% is what he can get. Executive power is out of control, and it's going to take some careful strategery to reel it back in.

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Friday, March 10, 2006 1:31 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Off-topic:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/article/2006/03/10/AR2006031001138.html

U.S. Budget Deficit Hits Record in Feb

For the first five months of the current budget year, revenues totaled $873.1 billion ... spending during this period totaled $1.09 trillion.


You're supposed to DIVIDE by two to cut the deficit in half? Oh. GW Bush



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, April 17, 2006 5:04 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Government Computing News

HOMELAND IG TAKES FEMA TO TASK

Homeland Security Department inspector general Richard Skinner concludes that the department's Federal Emergency Management Agency deserved much of the criticism it received in the media regarding its handling of the disaster.


http://www.gcn.com/online/vol1_no1/40397-1.html



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, April 17, 2006 11:03 AM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW, I thought I'd bring this up:

Quote:

The Louisiana bayou, hardest working marsh in America, is in big trouble—with dire consequences for residents, the nearby city of New Orleans, and seafood lovers everywhere.

It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.

But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however—the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.

The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

This was publised in that alarmist left-wing magazine, the National Geographic, in 2004. cryptome.org/nola-breach.htm

Apparently disaster was not only predicted by National Geographic (and even FEMA, years in advance of the event) but also by FEMA just hours before landfall

Quote:

WASHINGTON -- As Hurricane Katrina approached the Gulf Coast, President Bush's top disaster agency warned of the likelihood of levee breaches that could leave New Orleans submerged "for weeks or months," a communications blackout that would hamper rescue efforts and "at least 100,000 poverty-stricken people" stranded in the city.

Those remarkably accurate predictions were in a 40-page "Fast Analysis Report" compiled by the Department of Homeland Security on Aug. 28. Documents show that the report was sent by e-mail to the White House Situation Room at 1:47 a.m. on Aug. 29, hours before the deadly storm made landfall.

It would be interesting to see that report in detail.

Yes, I will admit that many people breathed a small sigh of relief when Katrina lost a little strength and shifted course slightly. For a half-day, it looked as though NOLA had escaped the disaster that was widely anticipated by the media and by the public and by everyone except maybe the President.

What I see here is a series of interlocking failures: A President who apparently doesn't have even enough "general knowledge" to make decisions w/o Cheney. Staff who is unwilling to bring bad news to the President (who is conistently reported by insiders to be disengaged except when he's enraged). Appointment of political supporters and hangers-on in top postions of authority and responsibility. (I found it ironic that Brown's answer to disaster was to kick the problem upstairs rather than taking the reins of his position.) And the worst problem of all: Failure to react to and plan for anything other than the most optimistic set of circumstances. The time to start planning for a disaster of that magnitude is not hours before it happens, when it appears that things might not go as badly as widely anticipated. If a response was not in place by the time that briefing had taken place it was already too late.

BTW- I give Bush a "pass" on a lot of things. The guy is cognitively impaired, and he isn't in charge anyway.



You beat me to it. Damn.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Senate Panel Recommends Abolishing FEMA By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer
59 minutes ago



The nation's beleaguered disaster response agency should be abolished and rebuilt from scratch to avoid a repeat of multiple government failures exposed by Hurricane Katrina, a Senate inquiry has concluded.

Crippled by years of poor leadership and inadequate funding, the Federal Emergency Management Agency cannot be fixed, a bipartisan investigation says in recommendations to be released Thursday.

Taken together, the 86 proposed reforms charge the United States is still woefully unprepared for a disaster such as Katrina with the start of the hurricane season a little more than month away.

"The United States was, and is, ill-prepared to respond to a catastrophic event of the magnitude of Hurricane Katrina," the recommendations warn. "Catastrophic events are, by their nature, difficult to imagine and to adequately plan for, and the existing plans and training proved inadequate in Katrina."

The recommendations, obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press, are the product of a seven-month investigation detailed in a Senate report to be released next week. It follows similar inquiries by the House and White House and comes in an election year in which Democrats have seized on Katrina to attack the Bush administration.

President Bush will visit Louisiana and Mississippi — which bore the brunt of Katrina's wrath — on Thursday.

Katrina, which hit last Aug. 29, was one of the worst natural disasters in U.S. history. The storm and its aftershocks killed more than 1,300 people in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, left hundreds of thousands of people homeless and caused tens of billions of dollars in damage.

The Senate report urges yet another overhaul of the embattled Homeland Security Department — FEMA's parent agency — which was created three years ago and already has undergone major restructuring of duties.

It chiefly calls for a new agency, called the National Preparedness and Response Authority, to plan and carry out relief missions for domestic disasters. Unlike now, the authority would communicate directly with the president during major crises, and any dramatic cuts to budget or staffing levels would have to be approved by Congress. But it would remain within Homeland Security to continue receiving resources provided by the larger department.

The proposal drew disdain from Homeland Security and its critics, both sides questioning the need for another bureaucratic shuffling that they said wouldn't accomplish much.

"It's time to stop playing around with the organizational charts and to start focusing on government, at all levels, that are preparing for this storm season," said Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke.

Former FEMA director Michael Brown said the new agency would basically have the same mission FEMA had a year ago, before its disaster planning responsibilities were taken away to focus solely on responding to calls for help.

"It sounds like they're just re-creating the wheel and making it look like they're calling for change," Brown said. "If indeed that's all they're doing, they owe more than that to the American public."

But Sen. Susan Collins (news, bio, voting record), R-Maine, who led the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee inquiry, said the new agency would be "better equipped with the tools to prepare for and respond to a disaster."

Describing FEMA as a "shambles and beyond repair," she said the reforms "will help ensure that we do not have a repeat of the failures following Hurricane Katrina."

Written in matter-of-fact terms, the recommendations do not place blame on any official or government agency. But a spokeswoman for Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, the top Democrat on the Senate panel, said he will file "additional views" to the report accusing Bush of failing "to provide critical leadership when it was most needed."

"That contributed to a grossly ineffective federal response to Hurricane Katrina," Lieberman said in a statement.

The House report, issued in February, similarly criticized Bush, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and FEMA's Brown for moving too slowly to trigger federal relief. The White House report, which came a week later, took a softer tone and singled out the Homeland Security Department for most of the breakdowns.

Many of the rest of the Senate recommendations were far less dramatic, ranging from creating a Homeland Security Academy to encouraging plans to evacuate and shelter pets during a disaster.

Without specifying where the money would come from or how much was needed, the recommendations call for more funding for disaster planning and response at all levels of government. They also urge clarifying levee maintenance responsibilities — a concern because of structural weaknesses of the New Orleans' flood walls that spawned deadly floods after Katrina hit_ and suggested better contracting procedures to avoid waste or fraud in the rush to get aid to disaster victims.

The Senate plans were issued as Congress' investigative arm predicted FEMA is destined to repeat million-dollar mistakes of disaster aid waste and fraud unless it quickly can establish controls for verifying names and addresses.

Gregory Kutz, managing director of special investigations for the Government Accountability Office, said he has little confidence that FEMA will be ready by June 1 start of the hurricane season to safeguard taxpayer dollars should a disaster like Katrina strike again.

A FEMA spokesman said agency officials are working hard to improve and tighten controls in its disaster aid program.



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 5:36 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Brown: E-mail shows Bush glad FEMA took Katrina flak

Friday, June 9, 2006; Posted: 10:09 p.m. EDT (02:09 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The former emergency management chief who quit amid widespread criticism over his handling of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina said he received an e-mail before his resignation stating President Bush was glad to see the Oval Office had dodged most of the criticism.

Michael Brown, former director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Friday that he received the e-mail five days before his resignation from a high-level White House official whom he declined to identify.

The e-mail stated that Bush was relieved that Brown -- and not Bush or Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff -- was bearing the brunt of the flak over the government's handling of Katrina. (Watch how Brown fell from grace -- 4:00)

The September 2005 e-mail reads: "I did hear of one reference to you, at the Cabinet meeting yesterday. I wasn't there, but I heard someone commented that the press was sure beating up on Mike Brown, to which the president replied, 'I'd rather they beat up on him than me or Chertoff.' "

The sender adds, "Congratulations on doing a great job of diverting hostile fire away from the leader."

CNN has been unable to verify the authenticity of the e-mail, but the White House designation "eop.gov" is part of the sender's e-mail address, indicating it came from the Executive Office of the President.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This deserves to be bumped!

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:03 AM

ARCLIGHT


"Let's see- you have a category 5 hurricane bearing straight down on a city, 80% of which is below sea level, and you expect that "the locals" can take care of it?"

Damn Straight I expect the locals to take care of it. That's what they are elected to do. The safty of the citizens of their cities, counties and states are their responsiblities.
The federal government can not step in until invited to do so by the state's officials.
Posse Comitatus.



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Saturday, June 10, 2006 11:47 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



They were invited to do so. Blanco had already asked the feds for help.

What she refused to do was to sign over full control of the operation, creating martial law, an ultimatum of the Bush administration if she wanted federal assistance. For that, he refused help. Disgraceful on his part.

And if you don't think it was disgraceful, then explain why, knowing what he knew, he didn't use his station as President before the hurricane hit to get air-time in order to explain the situation to the American public and generate the kind of pressure he needed to get that control? Explain why he wasn't on the ground level trying to do something?

He was on a fucking campaign trip, playing guitar in California. Don't tell me out of one side of your mouths, that the administration knew about this but its hands were tied by Blanco, while out of the other side, you continue to spout that nobody could have seen this coming, which was the Administration's talking point. "We all read in the paper, NOLA dodged a bullet."

Fucking police your own party once in a while. Democrats are good at that. Our elected officials do shit that's bad sometimes, but we usually hold their feet to the fire on it.

FDR tried to stack the supreme court by adding seats. Democrats stymied his plan.

Johsnon had to resign after his term, because his war lost support from his own party.

Pelosi just asked a fellow congressman accused of taking bribes to step down from his position, because we don't want him in our party if in-fact he did those things.

Have a little intelectual honesty and integrity about these matters, please.


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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 2:38 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


U.S. to send more than $3M in aid to cyclone-hit Burma

And how long was it before Bush acted on New Orleans ?

BYW, I noticed the 'liberal' media is keeping US aid really, really quiet. B/c it might trigger memories.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 4:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Apparently shrub thought FEMA was a fire and forget program, figured he could just set them upon it and not worry anymore.

While idiotic and boneheaded, I don't think he bears as much responsibility for things as FEMA itself does - they came in, locked down and co opted resources and then did not use them effectively, or by that action prevented them from being used at all.

It was some of our people in those tinfoil wonder fishing boats handing out MREs and bottled water to folk trapped on rooftops, which no way in hell could we admit to at the time cause they were both operating in violation of the evacuation order, and armed for their own defense with orders to haul ass if confronted by authorities.

The hardest part of that was coming up with the dosh, a pallet case of MREs (576 total) comes to around $2500USD from even the cheapest sources, but thankfully some surplus folks who were about to be wiped and flooded threw us some at a lot less than that in exchange for rescuing a significant amount of their inventories.

If you follow things through end to end, FEMA screwed it, top to bottom - but I for one will never forget the individual contributions of folk who went well above and beyond the call to help folk just because it was the right thing to do.

Oh, and anyone who resides down there who owns a boat with a capacity of 12 or more, and is willing to take some risks, should such an event become imminent in the future, lemme know.

-F

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 6:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


There is no story here. Bush is 100 % guiltless here. The fault lies w/ the incompetent Mayor and Governor of LA. Thankfully, one of them has been replaced.

I'm beyond sick and tired of these Bush haters who want to blame him for everything under the sun.

It was a hurricane. You don't hear the folks in Mississippi whining about it nearly as much,and they got hit worse.

Friggen get over it.

Rue, how is the media keeping it quiet ? I heard about it on the radio, even heard W's speech on getting aid there. Me thinks you're projecting a tad bit much.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 8:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

There is no story here. Bush is 100 % clueless here.

There, fixed that for you.

Non-story indeed, Next!

-F

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 11:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

There is no story here. Bush is 100 % blameless here.

There, fixed that for you.

Non-story indeed, Next!

-F



News Flash.....Hurricanes cause destruction. Film at 11:00

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 7, 2008 1:59 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Ah....nothing like some Katrina memories first thing in the morning.

Bottom Line for me : The US f'd up...& f'd up big time. Day after day of all those people just waiting in the hot sun, babies crying, no sanitation, people laying dead in the streets...pretty un-imagineable in this country. People can debate the fine points concerning the "offical" responses & who did what, or who didn't do what. Blame Nagin, blame Blanco...but that's not intellectually honest. It was the Federal Govt.'s clear responsibilty to "do the right thing" no matter what.....the ineffective leadership in New Orleans should have been expected by anyone in Washington with an IQ over 15, and they should have used their "emergency" powers to prepare and deliver relief much, much sooner. I don't think there was any race angle to the entire debacle, but it's not hard to see why many make that claim.

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Wednesday, May 7, 2008 4:45 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
If you follow things through end to end, FEMA screwed it, top to bottom - but I for one will never forget the individual contributions of folk who went well above and beyond the call to help folk just because it was the right thing to do.

Shhhhh. Shush. People don't do that. People don't help their neighbors on their own, esp in an environment with no law and order. They need someone to tell them, no--force them--before they'll help the weak and defenseless.

What gets my goat about Katrina is not just that FEMA fucked up, but authorities actually would not allow OTHERS to come in and help. Good god. If you are incompetent, at least have the decency to step out of the way and let someone else do the job.

And there is no good excuse for not allowing people to leave the Superdome, effectively imprisoning them in a disaster area without adequate food, water, shelter and sewage removal. Rapists and murderers in prison get better than that.

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Wednesday, May 7, 2008 7:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Ah....nothing like some Katrina memories first thing in the morning.

Bottom Line for me : The US f'd up...& f'd up big time. Day after day of all those people just waiting in the hot sun, babies crying, no sanitation, people laying dead in the streets...pretty un-imagineable in this country. People can debate the fine points concerning the "offical" responses & who did what, or who didn't do what. Blame Nagin, blame Blanco...but that's not intellectually honest. It was the Federal Govt.'s clear responsibilty to "do the right thing" no matter what.....the ineffective leadership in New Orleans should have been expected by anyone in Washington with an IQ over 15, and they should have used their "emergency" powers to prepare and deliver relief much, much sooner. I don't think there was any race angle to the entire debacle, but it's not hard to see why many make that claim.



Wow Jong , you couldn't have this MORE wrong w/ the comment that it's up to the Federal Gov't to " do the right thing" . The Fed Gov't TRIED to do the right thing, but there are things , like laws and jurisdiction, which the Gov of Louisiana used to keep the Feds from coming in an helping out in a timely fashion. Also, the PRIMARY fault bearer should be Mayor Nagin. It was he who failed to impliment ANY of his evacuation plan, and it was HIS police Dept which failed miserably in the days before and after the storm.

One can only imagine the distorted headlines and the outcries of 'POLICE STATE ' had Bush ushered in the Nat Guard on a city w/ a BLACK Mayor in a state w/ a WOMAN Governor, both being Democrats! Hell, even w/ the reaction as it was, there were STILL such headlines and accusations of Martial Law by a Dictator in Chief.

Fault does and always will lay with...
Mayor Nagin
Gov. Blanco
Civilians failing to heed the evacuation warnings
The US Army Corps of Engineers, who , along w/ the contractors in LA, skimped and cut corners in the building of the levees, by pocketing the rest of the Fed $$.

Those levees don't fail, the death toll goes WAY down, and we've already forgotten about Katrina.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 7, 2008 8:35 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Ah....nothing like some Katrina memories first thing in the morning.

Bottom Line for me : The US f'd up...& f'd up big time. Day after day of all those people just waiting in the hot sun, babies crying, no sanitation, people laying dead in the streets...pretty un-imagineable in this country. People can debate the fine points concerning the "offical" responses & who did what, or who didn't do what. Blame Nagin, blame Blanco...but that's not intellectually honest. It was the Federal Govt.'s clear responsibilty to "do the right thing" no matter what.....the ineffective leadership in New Orleans should have been expected by anyone in Washington with an IQ over 15, and they should have used their "emergency" powers to prepare and deliver relief much, much sooner. I don't think there was any race angle to the entire debacle, but it's not hard to see why many make that claim.



Wow Jong , you couldn't have this MORE wrong w/ the comment that it's up to the Federal Gov't to " do the right thing" . The Fed Gov't TRIED to do the right thing, but there are things , like laws and jurisdiction, which the Gov of Louisiana used to keep the Feds from coming in an helping out in a timely fashion. Also, the PRIMARY fault bearer should be Mayor Nagin. It was he who failed to impliment ANY of his evacuation plan, and it was HIS police Dept which failed miserably in the days before and after the storm.

One can only imagine the distorted headlines and the outcries of 'POLICE STATE ' had Bush ushered in the Nat Guard on a city w/ a BLACK Mayor in a state w/ a WOMAN Governor, both being Democrats! Hell, even w/ the reaction as it was, there were STILL such headlines and accusations of Martial Law by a Dictator in Chief.

Fault does and always will lay with...
Mayor Nagin
Gov. Blanco
Civilians failing to heed the evacuation warnings
The US Army Corps of Engineers, who , along w/ the contractors in LA, skimped and cut corners in the building of the levees, by pocketing the rest of the Fed $$.

Those levees don't fail, the death toll goes WAY down, and we've already forgotten about Katrina.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "


Rap.....I can't disagree or argue with anything you stated, however I cannot help but believe that with almost a full week's warning ( no tornado here, just a lumbering Cat 5 hurricane ) that the Feds should have understood what could happen, and could have been much better prepared to reduce the human suffering. And if Blanco didn't do what a Governor is supposed to do, then the President should have just signed an Executive Order and moved in relief on his own authority the first day. He could have dealt with legal issues later.

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Wednesday, May 7, 2008 9:20 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Jongs, I think that it's easier to say these things after the fact, than before. Fact is, predicting landfall for a Hurricane is near impossible, so trying to coordinate where to send the resources prior to landfall is simply an act in futility.

On the other hand, I will yield the view that Bush could have signed an E.O and forced the issue more, erring on the side of safety . His main fault is he has too much trust in those beneath him to do their job. W often balks at taking the bull by the horns and exerting some of his Executive Office control over matters. Unlike Reagan, I doubt W would have actually gone through and fired those who didn't report for work under the PATCO scenario.

With W, there's more 'trust' and less 'verify' than there needs to be. One of his biggest flaws, imo.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 7, 2008 9:58 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Jongs, I think that it's easier to say these things after the fact, than before. Fact is, predicting landfall for a Hurricane is near impossible, so trying to coordinate where to send the resources prior to landfall is simply an act in futility.

On the other hand, I will yield the view that Bush could have signed an E.O and forced the issue more, erring on the side of safety . His main fault is he has too much trust in those beneath him to do their job. W often balks at taking the bull by the horns and exerting some of his Executive Office control over matters. Unlike Reagan, I doubt W would have actually gone through and fired those who didn't report for work under the PATCO scenario.

With W, there's more 'trust' and less 'verify' than there needs to be. One of his biggest flaws, imo.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "


Couldn't agree more about the Bush "trust" & "follow-up" weakness thing. Hell, he left Clintonistas all over the place ( Clarke, Wilson, etc.) thinking it would help build bi-partisanship after the 2000 election angst. Unfortunately one by one they all resigned, wrote self-serving books, and betrayed Bush and their country.

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