REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Katrina

POSTED BY: SEVENPERCENT
UPDATED: Thursday, September 8, 2005 09:35
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VIEWED: 4998
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Sunday, August 28, 2005 3:24 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Although I don't live in the New Orleans area, I have visited it several times and consider it one of the finest places in the 'verse. Now it seems that Ol' Mother Nature has taken somewhat of a dislike to it, and is coming for it with both barrels.

So I'd just like to dedicate this thread to those Browncoats that live in the NOLA area, and tell you all that I'm sorry for what's happening and to urge those of you who haven't left yet (for whatever reason) to stay safe. As other websites have done, I'd also like this thread to give some folks on this board a chance to use it to offer whatever help they can give.

God bless you all, and good luck.

7%

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 7:15 AM

JAHZARA


I just posted on another thread. Thank you so much for the prayers and kind thoughts. I'm not from NO, but not too far away either. Just keep us in your thoughts as we rebuild.

God bless you, as well.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 7:15 AM

JAHZARA


Ugh. Double posts spare no one.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:44 AM

SAKANA


Thanks a lot. I go to school in NE Louisiana, but I'm from Baton Rouge. They have no power or phone service right now, so imagine what New Orleans must be like right now. The water is still rising in N.O. and many of my friends from there have lost everything. Whole families are crowded into little student apartments with nowhere to go. Keep everyone that's still down there in your thoughts and prayers. They need them.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:54 PM

CHRISISALL


One of my co-workers is down there for school, and we haven't heard from her. But Erin's tough, it's just a matter of time 'till she calls.

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


My mom was from Baton Rouge, and I've always had a part of me that felt that's where my roots are, even if I never actually lived there. Been to NOLA several times, for New Years Eve, Mardis Gras and Jazz Fest. It's definatly unlike any other place in the world. I hate seeing folks go through all this, and it doesn't look like thing will get back to normal any time soon.

My thoughts and hopes go out to the good folk down there.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:50 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I was so relieved when the eye passed east of NO - and now it looks like it didn't help the outcome at all. Rather than a quick blow, it's a slow motion disaster.

Only time will tell how ultimately bad it gets.

Better luck to eveyone down there.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:24 PM

MELEAUX


I'm here in Baton Rouge and I'm scared. I've got power now, thank heavens but now I watch the continuing live coverage and I am scared. Life for us in south La. will never be the same
I feel a tiny bit better knowin' my fellow browncoats are out there praying for us. You can even pray out loud if you like.


She understands, she doesn't comprehend

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I was hoping the city would be spared, but the worst-case scenario predicted b4 the storm ("A bowl of toxic soup") seems to be coming true. And now there's looting. (!!!???) They need every friggin' National Guardsman, every Coast Guard boat, and the entire Army Corps of Engineers down there... and the Red Cross to take care of the survivors. But I'll tell you, this fumbling and bumbling- even for a PREDICTED disaster- doesn't leave me with a great deal of confidence for the much-anticipated "big one" in LA.

Don't forget- donations of blood and money to the Red Cross are welcome.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:10 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


I have ties in New Orleans....I haven't heard word yet.

I lived in Louisiana for a time, my dad is in Endymion, my old college friends...there are so many things in my life that are connected to that city. So many great memories.

Most certainly they are in my prayers.

A lot of people just kept driving right thru Baton Rouge, right thru Shreveport, and ended up here in Tulsa. The Red Cross has shelters here. It's heartbraking.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:44 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
They need every friggin' National Guardsman, every Coast Guard boat, and the entire Army Corps of Engineers down there... and the Red Cross to take care of the survivors.

Don't forget- donations of blood and money to the Red Cross are welcome.



Nice. I was trying to think of some way to help. Since I work for the govt I don't have money to donate and since I'm a lawyer I can't spare any blood.

So a few months back we had a weird DUI case. Man was caught driving his industrial dump truck. He had multiple priors so we confiscated the vehicle. Sure enough, its still sitting over in the impound lot since we don't really have any use for such a large construction vehicle. So I got the bright idea to donate the truck to the relief effort, get local churches to fill it with supplies (shovels, toilet paper, Cleveland Browns Media Guides, etc) and get a couple of our firement (who were planning to go anyway for the Red Cross) to drive that baby down to New Orleans or Mississippi and give the truck and supplies to some little City down that'aways to haul debris and such.

This relatively good idea (since aside from my time its cost the City next to nothing) has a tremendous amount of red tape and so far has involved one trip to court. Hopefully though I can have it on the road by tomorrow afternoon.

H

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:48 AM

SPINLAND


This banner just popped up on cnn.com:

"New Orleans mayor says Katrina killed hundreds -- maybe thousands -- of people in city, Associated Press reports. More soon."

I'm so thankful my family members got out of there before it hit, and so sorry for the people who didn't.

----
I can see you.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:43 AM

RUXTON


[Tune of the day?]

If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break,
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break,
When The Levee Breaks I'll have no place to stay.

Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Lord, mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well.

Don't it make you feel bad
When you're tryin' to find your way home,
You don't know which way to go?
If you're goin' down South
They go no work to do,
If you don't know about Chicago.

Cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
Now, cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.

All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
Thinkin' 'bout me baby and my happy home.
Going, go'n' to Chicago,
Go'n' to Chicago,
Sorry but I can't take you.
Going down, going down now, going down.

[Led Zep]

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I just listened to the Prezdent... three days after the fact... and I have to say I sure hope we don't have any other disasters on his watch. He's going to send one hosptial ship to the area. ONE???? Katrina devastated three states! "Dozens" of helicopters??? They're saying it's going to take two weeks- or more- to get into some areas. I can tell you, if there are any survivors now, there sure won't be THEN.

I have a few ideas....

How about that we ALL share in the pain... say... the oil companies stop profiteering? Maybe even donate to the cause? What happens to all those people who just went bankrupt? Maybe we should give them exemptions from our newly-minted "you're screwed" personal bankruptcy laws? What about the healtcare indsutry? Do ya think maybe they could spare a little from their billions of profits and provide some health care?


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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:18 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I just listened to the Prezdent... three days after the fact... and I have to say I sure hope we don't have any other disasters on his watch. He's going to send one hosptial ship to the area. ONE???? Katrina devastated three states! "Dozens" of helicopters??? They're saying it's going to take two weeks- or more- to get into some areas. I can tell you, if there are any survivors now, there sure won't be THEN.



Yep. It's all Dubya's fault, once again. Please get over it.

We got two hospital ships total. Comfort and Mercy. Comfort is closer (Baltimore vs. Oakland) and Mercy can be deployed if needed. Assessment needs to be made.

Dozens of helicopters are being deployed from amphibious assault ships(which also have medical facilities, BTW), in addition to the Coast Guard, Police, and National Guard choppers already on the scene. How many you think we got just sitting around? Choppers without specialized rescue equipment (hoists and crew trained to use them) aren't much use. Military resources trained in littoral action (small boats, useful in flooded areas)are also being committed. Give things a chance to work out before you start condemnation.
Quote:



I have a few ideas....

How about that we ALL share in the pain... say... the oil companies stop profiteering? Maybe even donate to the cause? What happens to all those people who just went bankrupt? Maybe we should give them exemptions from our newly-minted "you're screwed" personal bankruptcy laws? What about the healtcare indsutry? Do ya think maybe they could spare a little from their billions of profits and provide some health care?



I got no problem with this, although this is follow-on stuff. I don't doubt that disaster relief will help with some of this. Right now basic services are what's needed. So drop a few bucks on the Red Cross and ask your deity of choice to get involved.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Bush didn't create Katrina, of course, but he DID deeply cut work on completing the levee between lake Pontchartrian and NOLA in favor of the War in Iraq and the tax cut.
Quote:

The Army Corps of Engineers... spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained (to be completed) even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside. Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq...as well the tax cuts... was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming...." In early 2004... President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.

On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: “It appears that the money has been moved in the president’s budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that’s the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can’t be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.” Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:

"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don’t get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can’t stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn’t that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can’t raise them."

www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1473789/posts Even in the current Federal budget
Quote:

In fiscal year 2006, the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bracing for a record $71.2 million reduction in federal funding. It would be the largest single-year funding loss ever for the New Orleans district, Corps officials said.


Aside from the overall lack of preparation, one of the things I wondered about was why the resources were not put on alert BEFORE Katrina made landfall? I mean, you see a Category 5 storm heading for a major city that is below sea level, people are predicting EXACTLY what happened... why not put the National Guard on alert? Why not start moving equipment to the area ahead of time to evacuate people? Why wait until three days after the fact to form a "task force" to "plan" how to "coordinate" effort??? When 55% of the National Guard and most of the helicopters and amphibious vehicles are in Iraq and everyone else is at least a state away doesn't it make sense to start moving into postion EARLY? So that you can resuce people BEFORE they start dying of lack of meds and drowning and starvation and cholera and typhus??? This isn't a joke. People ARE dying. And I kept asking myself- What are they waiting for????

So, does acting ahead of time make sense? Nahh... I suppose not.

Also, in a more proactive sense, the whole "just in time" corporate philosphy works GREAT- as long as nothing goes wrong. I can't tell you the number of times I've gone to the pharmacy to get meds for my daughter or SO and they were out of stock. In case of an earthquake (in our case) pharmacies, hospitals, even grocery stores have NO stock. I can't even build up our own personal supply of meds because the insurance companies won't pay ahead.

One of the things that we all don't take into account is that the only things that makes cities liveable is a sophisticated series of services: sewage, sewage treatment, trash collection, water treatment, electricity, regualr deliveries of food, ATMs and banks, police, doctors, medicine etc. Having lived thru the Blizzard of '77- when the ONLY things we ran out of were heating and food- you realize how very dependent we are.

I happen to know that the real first responders: fire, police, emergency rooms and public health- are terribly underfunded. It just seems to me that attention needs to be paid because it's not going to happen all by itself. It needs leadership.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:38 PM

RUXTON


SignyM,
Nice one. I was about to come to your rescue, but you handled it well. Yes, the MSM doesn't want to touch the facts you pointed out. Another bad joke is the numbers of Guard and other troops going to New Orleans. There should be 100,000 Guard ordered there IMMEDIATELY, and all the helicopters in the world to get people out of there before they die from lack of water. A person can go a long time without food, but not without water.

And the fool on the hill sat on his arse in Texas, knowing this was coming, until AFTER it happened. He shows piss-poor leadership by any standards.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 1:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Sorry, SignyM. I forgot for a moment that the real importance of a disaster is to provide you with another platform to bash the government, private industry, etc. Rock on.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 2:27 AM

SIMONWHO


Now, now. Bush has taken time out of his busy schedule to order Air Force One to dive bomb the area a few times. Just because he swiped all the money for preparing the defences against this eventuality and also pushed incredibly hard against anything that might slow down climate change, just what makes you think he should be criticised?

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 4:26 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I just listened to the Prezdent... three days after the fact... and I have to say I sure hope we don't have any other disasters on his watch. He's going to send one hosptial ship to the area. ONE????



I think your being a bit hard on the Federal Govt and President Bush.

He deploys a hospital ship on less then 24 hours notice and several Amphibious troop ships one of which was on station by Tuesday evening. He is sending hundreds of truckloads of pre-positioned relief supplies over road clogged with refugees, despite limited fuel supplies, and into a region whose transportation infrastructure is severely damaged. And all that is what was happening Tuesday. He pointed out the more is coming.

What I'm saying is that these things take time. Sure, we could have prepositioned all the stuff in the affected region in the days before the storm hit. But then it would have likely been destroyed along with everything else. That means everything had to be staged hundreds of miles away. Then it needs to be moved. That means planes (airports are flooded, damaged, destroyed), trains (railroad service is limited), and trucks (bridges, roads, gas supplies).

I can understand your anger with Bush. After all he won the election in 2000 and again in 2004 and for that you cannot forgive him. But the largest disaster in American history, I think you can give him more then 24 hours to get it sorted out. Perhaps President Kerry could have stood atop the levy and commanded the waters to recede. But Bush is limited by mere mortal ability to bring all the resources of the United States into action for the relief and recovery efforts to come.

H

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:00 AM

HERO


Oh, I've got one:

Quote:


Senate shores up La. flood control
Money would allow new construction
Saturday, June 18, 2005
By Sheila Grissett
East Jefferson bureau

The tug-of-war that is the appropriations process on Capitol Hill has, for now, restored enough money to allow some new flood- and hurricane-protection construction in southeast Louisiana during the fiscal year starting Oct. 1 -- but it's only Monopoly money until the budget game ends.

This week, the Senate Appropriations Committee returned about $31 million to the proposed 2006 budget that the Bush administration and House Appropriations Committee took away from flood and hurricane work during their first bite at the budget apple earlier this year.

Later this summer, the House and Senate committees will sit down as a single conference committee to reconcile the differences in the spending recommendations for the Army Corps of Engineers, which supervises and underwrites hurricane-protection work for the Lake Pontchartrain and West Bank areas and flood-control projects under the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control program, known as SELA.

The conference bill that results will go to the president for signing, and the numbers will make a world of difference to residents who live in the geographical bowl that is the New Orleans area, according to corps supervisors and a phalanx of elected and appointed officials who have made repeated trips to Washington in recent months to plead for money.

"Today was a really good day for" us, Jefferson Parish Council Chairman Tom Capella said of the successful push Tuesday by Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., to get the Senate Water and Natural Subcommittee to restore money slashed by the administration and House appropriations members. On Thursday, the full Senate Appropriations Committee followed suit.

"We feel pretty certain that it will stay through the full Senate," Capella said. "But we can't let up."


SELA contracts

If the additional $31 million remains, local corps officials said the agency should be able to award four new SELA contracts this year in Orleans and Jefferson parishes and continue project planning in St. Tammany Parish. The new contracts would likely include the final contract needed to complete the new Dwyer Road Pump Station system in New Orleans, improvements to the Soniat Canal between Veterans Memorial Boulevard and Canal No. 3 on the East Bank, installation of a diesel engine at the Westwego Pump Station, and modifications to the Cross Canal at Lapalco Boulevard on the West Bank.

"It's possible that the money would even allow us to award two contracts on Florida Avenue projects, but it's too soon to know about that," said corps' SELA project manager Stan Green.

"But if the money doesn't stick, it's unlikely that we could award any new contracts," he said. "And we'd probably have to talk to our contractors on existing (projects) about how to keep them going."


Levee work could continue

Congress gave the corps $32.7 million for the SELA program this year, but the Bush administration House appropriations panel sliced that to $10.5 million for the upcoming fiscal year. The Senate Appropriations Committee has restored SELA to $37 million.

Marcia Demma, chief of the corps' Programs Management Branch, said she believes the conference committee will settle on a figure somewhere between the two extremes.

"Of course, we hope it's closer to the Senate version because it would provide more safety during hurricanes, more flood control and be good for the New Orleans economy," said Demma, who doesn't expect the conference committee to act before July at the earliest.

There also has been money restored for more Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity hurricane protection work.

In this budget year, that program got $5.1 million, originally reduced to $2.97 million for the 2006 fiscal year, but now reset by the Senate to $7.5 million.

"This would probably allow us to do some levee work in Jefferson and St. Charles parishes and maybe get a new contract out in New Orleans -- depending on how much we actually get, " said Al Naomi, senior manager of the Lake Pontchartrain program.

"It will allow us to get out of the hole, and it will take at least some of the pressure off our local sponsors," he said of the levee districts, parishes and municipal agencies that are forced to pay for hurricane-protection projects previously covered by federal dollars.


West Bank a priority

Corps money for the separately financed West Bank hurricane protection work wasn't nearly so hard hit; the Bush administration and the House reduced it from this year's $30 million level to $28 million for the upcoming fiscal year. The Senate has proposed a further reduction to $25 million.

Demma said federal money for the West Bank work is protected largely because it is one of nine projects nationwide declared by the administration a few years ago to be "national (funding) priorities."

"The administration said it received the designation because it is an urban area where storm damage occurs," she said. "And because the West Bank is a relatively new project, it currently provides significantly less protection than the Lake Pontchartrain project provides."

Despite that national priority designation, the Senate Appropriations Committee reduced West Bank by a further $3 million.

"Congress funds what it wants to fund," Demma said.


The last line is the most revealing.

"Congress funds what it wants to fund. "

I've also been reading congressional testimony:
< http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/trans/hpw106-71.000/hpw106-71_1.H
TM
>
which suggests that the focus for over fifteen years has been enviromental restoration of Lake Pontchartrain, not the protection of New Orleans.

This is similar to the country's energy problems that are resulting from this disaster. Fact is no new refinery has been constructed anywhere in the United States since 1978. In 2000 we were in an energy crisis that has since gotten worse as first international destabilization and now natural disaster has threatened the flow of oil to the US and the flow of gasoline to the consumer. We could have, in 2001, allowed the drilling of oil in Alaska and constructed the reasonable infrastructure to support it in the form of refineries located on the West Coast. Such a system would have taken 3-5 years to complete, meant thousands of very good American jobs, and eased our dependence on foriegn oil while diversifying our oil infrastructure. Imagine if you will a million barrels a day being refined through such facilities in the wake of this week's crisis. However the liberal, enviromentalists successfully delayed and prevented action so now, when its needed, its still years away at best.

Oh, and a final word to the enviromentalist wackos claiming this is all Bush's fault for the Kyoto thing. One, that treaty was rejected 98-0 under President Clinton. Two, anyone who thinks US support for that treaty would have stopped Katrina from happening is as crazy as anyone who thinks that Katrina is the vengence of an angry god.

H

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:22 AM

SIMONWHO


It's not a question of "prevented it from happening", it's a question of reducing the number of times such dramatic environmental events happen.

Hurricanes, ice ages, droughts, etc, etc have and will always occur in our eco-system. However the damage we've done to the environment has bumped up the frequency and power of such events. If Bush had immediately put the Kyoto protocol into effect in January 2001, would that have stopped this storm? Well, no (unless you subscribe to the butterfly effect theory).

However he's taking actions (like your previous Presidents) that will ensure these disasters continue to happen with greater and greater regularity. It's not even a Republican thing that I'm criticising here; it's an American thing. When it comes to the environment, you're probably the most selfish nation on the planet and definitely the most destructive.

There is a very broad consensus that you're doing terrible damage to the planet (obviously we are too but less so and we're at least trying to minimise it). Nobody can say whether Katrina was a direct result of our collective pollution from the last fifty years or not. What we can say is that it made it that much more likely.

'The fault lies not within the stars' as they say.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yep, Geezer- that's all I'm interested in is bashing Bush and corporations. Has nothing to do with the fact that this entirely predicted disaster was fumbled from the moment it was predicted, and that thousands may have died. I think it's MUCH more important to feel fuzzy and warm about "the system" than to ackonwledge mistakes and deficiencies. Apparently you feel the same way... everything went well... you would have changed nothing, and Bush did entirely the right thing by showing up in San Diego in the midst of an unfolding crisis to push is war in Iraq and get another photo op in front of an aircraft carrier.

BTW- if you think I'm stupid enough to be suggesting that resources be forwarded into the path of the hurricane, then you are entirely mistaken. But there are rescue groups being moblized from California and all over the nation, just maybe they should have been in Texas already?.






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Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:34 AM

SPINLAND


I will give Shrub this much: at least this time when he learned of the disaster he didn't just sit on his ranch, invite a bunch of schoolchildren in, and read them a story. Even a clod like him can learn some small things.

----
I can see you.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 8:36 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Spinland:
I will give Shrub this much: at least this time when he learned of the disaster he didn't just sit on his ranch, invite a bunch of schoolchildren in, and read them a story. Even a clod like him can learn some small things.



I've always been proud of how the President handled the 9/11 news. He was sitting in a room, surrounded by schoolchildren and the Press Corps. Jumping up and running from the room would have been the worst possible reaction.

Instead he was calm and deliberate so as to avoid panicing the kids, the press, and the nation. It was one of many islands of sanity in the midst of the chaos of that September morning.

This disaster is far, far worse. And its going to keep getting worse even while it gets better. After all, its September, I live in Ohio, that means I need to be thinking about heating oil in another month or so. My humble suggestion is we find the most beautiful, pristine, stretch of coastline in California and we build the biggest, stinkiest, uggliest, dirtyiest oil refinery the world has ever seen. We can start tomorrow. I'll bring a shovel, you bring the refining equipment. We'll make a bundle and save the nation all at the same time.

H

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 8:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And then when The Big One comes and the refinery that everyone depends on is a smoking ruin, and we are just as unprepared for emergencies as we were the last time, then we'll all be back to where we started or worse. Way to go, Hero. Nice job saving the nation!

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 9:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BTW- I'm not sparing the local government from criticism either. I know that you want to save evacuation to the last possible minute, but I thought it was delayed about a half-day too long. And when I saw those long lines of idling cars on the outbound freeways and three lanes empty in the other direction I thought... Geee, can't they just re-route traffic and designate 5/6 lanes "outbound"? Or do they have magic one-way concrete that runs in the wrong direction?

Here's another thought that came to me during the evacuation: Why not commandeer city buses and school buses to get people out of harm's way? Maybe involve the National Guard or the military to do a house to house? I mean, evacuation is tough but rescue is much tougher are far less successful. And some people didn't want to leave because they didn't have any place to go. So how about setting up tent cities, or even opening up out-of-harm's way bases, or even commandeering some hotels?

That's what I mean by fumbling. I'll admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but if I can think of stuff like that, why couldn't anyone else?

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 9:11 AM

RUXTON


This from Biloxi:

"...our reporters have yet to find evidence of a coordinated approach to relieve pain and hunger or to secure property and maintain order.

"People are hurting and people are being vandalized.

"Yet where is the National Guard, why hasn't every able-bodied member of the armed forces in South Mississippi been pressed into service?

"On Wednesday reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics.

"Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!

"When asked why these young men were not being used to help in the recovery effort, our reporters were told that it would be pointless to send military personnel down to the beach to pick up debris.

"Litter is the least of our problems. We need the president to back up his declaration of a disaster with a declaration of every man and woman under his command will do whatever is necessary to deal with that disaster."

Anyone, ANYONE! who thinks Bush is a leader has his head jammed up his rectum so far he's looking out his own mouth. I suggest such heroes get their heads out NOW, and accept the truth in front of them. Otherwise they're part of the problem, not the solution.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 9:53 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
And then when The Big One comes and the refinery that everyone depends on is a smoking ruin, and we are just as unprepared for emergencies as we were the last time, then we'll all be back to where we started or worse. Way to go, Hero. Nice job saving the nation!



One crisis at a time. This is the big one. We rarely see two historically signifigant natural disasters happen so close together either temporally or geographically.

By the time the big one hits the refineries in Louisiana will be working again. Plus we can build a few cleaner, nicer refineries in Washington or Oregon (or Ohio if the pipeline is long enough). The oil industry could be great for America. All that pipe being made here in Ohio and PA, all the steel and tools coming from Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois. The refineries themselves each represent hundreds of good jobs that can't be exported to Mexico. Lower gas prices benefit everyone and we can all feel better buying and driving SUVs and buying goods sold without a markup reflecting the high prices of transportation.

I don't see a downside.

Seems to me we could have started building one or two new refineries in 1999 when it became obvious we needed them, or 2000, when we really needed them, or 2001, when we'd just elected somebody who knew how much we needed them, or 2002, when we saw that the war on terror was going to make global oil imports less secure, or 2004 when the price spiked, or even today in 2005 when we really, really need them.

H

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 10:09 AM

SIMONWHO


Or (and this is one of those crazy wacky European ideas so bear with me) reduce your dependence on oil altogether.

You know, instead of going for the shortest term possible fix, actually try and solve the problem.

Like I said, wacky European idea but have a think about it.

Oh and I'm still laughing about the idea that having President Bush continue to read kids a story when his country was burning around him was an effective calming measure. What was Rudy then, a dangerous overreactor who just got people panicked by doing his job and running the city in full public view? Bush continued to sit there because he didn't have a clue what to do next and there was nobody there to tell him what to do next. So he carried on reading My Pet Goat.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 10:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Biloxi
Quote:

The clear difference between Biloxi and New Orleans is that the bodies that are turning up here (in Biloxi) have been dead for a number of days.


Baton Rouge
Quote:

There are hundreds of people from the National Guard here in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. We're seeing people from all the agencies. They're waiting to deploy. Their sense is that the condition inside New Orleans is so unstable they don't want to be sending people into harm's way.(A reporter) saw one woman who was so desperate she actually handed her 2-month-old baby to another woman and said, "Take my child. I can't get on this bus, but you've got to try to save the child.


New Orleans
Quote:

There are thousands of people lying in the street. We saw mothers holding babies, some of them just three, four and five months old, living in horrible conditions. Diapers littered the ground. Feces were on the ground. Sewage was spilled all around.... People are dying at the center and there is no one to get them. We saw a grandmother in a wheelchair pushed up to the wall and covered with a sheet. Right next to her was another dead body wrapped in a white sheet. Right in front of us a man went into a seizure on the ground. People have been sitting there without food and water and waiting. They are asking -- "When are the buses coming? When are they coming to help us?"

The people tell us that National Guard units have come by as a show of force. They have tossed some military rations out. People are eating potato chips to survive and are looting some of the stores nearby for food and drink. It is not the kind of food these people need.

They are saying, "Don't leave us here to die. We are stuck here. Why can't they send the buses? Are they going to leave us here to die?"



Metairie, LA
Quote:

We spent the night at the New Orleans Saints' training facility. It is the encampment for the FEMA officials and National Guard troops who will deploy out to certain areas.

They just deployed a new unit out here from California. They're called swift water operation rescue units. These folks are trained to go in and get people out of the homes that they have been stuck in for days now with water all around.

We were with a unit last night on a boat. We watched as they performed many of these rescues. It's quite a sight to see. Bodies are floating along the flooded road. And I asked them, "What do you do about that?" They said, "There's no time to deal with them now. We have to deal with the living". (we) heard faint screams coming from homes. People were yelling, "Help! Help!"

So we contacted the swift water rescue units and they went out there. To our surprise and their surprise there were no fewer than 15 people huddled in their home. We could only hear them. We couldn't see them. We were able to assist and get the right people over there to get them out.

Just like them, there may be literally thousands that need to be rescued. It's a very daunting task for these officials.



Convention Center
Quote:

We just heard a couple of gunshots go off. There's a building smoldering a block away. People are picking through whatever is left in the stores right now. They are walking the streets because they have nowhere else to go.... The convention center is a place that people were told to go to because it would be safe. In fact, it is a scene of anarchy.There is absolutely nobody in control. There is no National Guard, no police, no information to be had... no buses have come. No boats have come. They think water is going come. No water has come. And they have no food.... people at the convention center are starting to pass away and there is simply nothing to do with their bodies. There is nowhere to put them. There is no one who can do anything with them.


www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/scene.blog/index.html

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 11:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

We rarely see two historically signifigant natural disasters happen so close together either temporally or geographically.
But then, we rarely see historic natural disasters and major wars together either and yet, quick as you can say "Bob's your uncle" .... here we are!

Hero, you obviously don't believe in Murphy and you surely ain't an engineer!

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 1:22 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm sure some of the fires were set by owners. You can't get flood insurance except through the Federal government, it's better if your building burns.

It's Iraq all over again - no electricity, infrastructure, water, shelter, food, medical care, organization, security - and help that's far too little, far too late.

The one thing I think is different from all other hurricanes is that N.O. is flooded long-term. In other hurricanes water abates quickly. So while in past hurricanes roads are difficult (debris, washed-out) at least there is solid ground for people to shelter on and wait, and for rescuers to work from.

In N.O there is no ground and all work must be done by boat and air. I think that basic difference wasn't anticipated and it has thrown out the assumption of response-as-usual.

But other things are inexcusable. There should be a full military presence to deal with the massive numbers of displaced people. And as ironic as it might be, there's plenty of rail lines that could be used to move masses of people.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 4:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I started being horrified on SUNDAY. Response to Katrina at ALL levels was lackadaisical: The evacuation was called AFTER public transport had been shut down (!!) and was NOT followed up by a house to house search. Transportation and temporary shelter were not arranged. The National Guard and other responders in other states were not put on alert and moved forward. I thought it was like watching a slow-motion train wreck. The phrase that kept going thru my head was "What are they WAITING for? What are they WAITING for?" I couldn't believe my eyes. There was no leadership at any level, no Giuliani to save the day.

I have an image- watching the government response was like seeing what you thought was a sound log ripped open and finding it was all crumbly inside. The mayor (Nagin, D) didn't "impose" the government and "force" evacuation. Public transport depended volunteer bus drivers. The trains were pulled out of service. The governor (Blano, D) was... where WAS the governor? Apparently she was re-routing some traffic, using the state highway patrol, but... And where was FEMA and Bush? Bush was... well, Bush on vacation before landfall, and was playing golf in Arizona and making speeches in San Diego on Monday, Tuesday, and early Wednesday. It seems that people in government don't actually believe in doing- ya know- "governmental" things. Things that private industry CAN'T do. That instead of "the government" being an expression of our care for each other, it's turned into a hollow organization at best even in urgent matters of life and death for thousands of people. Am I the only one with this impression?

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Friday, September 2, 2005 4:21 AM

SPINLAND


I don't think it helps that it appears the vast majority of the people stranded in NO were those too poor to have the means to get out--or to secure shelter even if they did manage to escape in time. Not the segment of the population who can afford to buy the caring of politicians through fat contributions. No, TPTB have to be shamed into acting after the fact, when conditions get so horrific that there's political capital to be gained being seen rushing in to help. Where was the willingness to house 75,000 poor people in Texas BEFORE Katrina hit? Where were all those transport busses then; who was willing to pay for them? No, the poor havee got to pay for their aid with human suffering before it becomes cost-effective to provide it.

----
I can see you.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 4:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I didn't want to get into that. But there was one Administration person who was surprised that so many victims were "crawling out of the woodwork". I think that choice of words unconsciously reflects a view that the victims are vermin, more or less.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 6:26 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But then, we rarely see historic natural disasters and major wars together either and yet, quick as you can say "Bob's your uncle" .... here we are!


Happens all the time. (Points to Africa) famine and war, drought and war, floods and war. (Glances at the Indian subcontinent) flood and war, drought and war, floods and war. (Glances at Argentina) Earthquakes and war. (Glances at Texas) in 1900 a hurricane kills thousands while America is at war then happens again in 1943, (glances at Alaska) 8.7 Earthquake during Vietnam not to mention the 9.2 and Tsunami the year before...and so on. Found a great site for natural disasters by date, location, and magnitude, then corralated the dates with times of war.

What I failed to see was extremely large natural disasters occurring close together in time and place. Just like I said.

H

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Friday, September 2, 2005 6:34 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I didn't want to get into that. But there was one Administration person who was surprised that so many victims were "crawling out of the woodwork". I think that choice of words unconsciously reflects a view that the victims are vermin, more or less.



Could reflect reality. People were literally crawling out of the woodwork. Naw, better to think the worst of people and the things they say. I was surprised that most of the people were black, guess that makes me a racist for daring to speak about what I am seeing.

Personally I think it was foolish to expect people with limited resources to exacuate on such short notice. The people hardest hit or the elderly, the infirm, the unlucky, the criminal element (who stayed for the criminal opportunity and got smacked by reality), and those without the means to travel long distances on little or no notice, I don't really blame anyone, nobody thought this would be this bad.

Clearly the ready aid on Tuesday and Wednesday went to the outlying areas so as to open the way for today's massive aid convoys. Overall the effort seems about a day behind, but given the widespread destruction, I can't blame them too much. We should save what and who we can, rebuild and learn our lessons.

H

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Friday, September 2, 2005 8:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And the lessons are....???

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Friday, September 2, 2005 8:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This was published on Monday, but it was anticipated well before Katrina arrived.

Quote:

(CNN) -- Flooding from Hurricane Katrina's Monday landfall could wreak catastrophe on New Orleans, overwhelming the city's water and sewage systems and leaving survivors in a bowl of toxic soup, a top hurricane expert said.

Some 25 feet of standing water was expected in many parts of the city -- almost twice the height of the average home -- and computer models suggest that more than 80 percent of buildings would be badly damaged or destroyed, said Ivor van Heerden, deputy director of the Louisiana State University Hurricane Center and director of the Center for the Study of Public Health Impacts of Hurricanes in Baton Rouge.

Floodwaters from the east would carry toxic waste from the "Industrial Canal" area, nicknamed after the chemical plants there. From the west, floodwaters would flow through an industrial complex that includes refineries and chemical plants, said van Heerden, who has studied computer models about the impact of a strong hurricane for four years....

In New Orleans, which lies below sea level, gas and diesel tanks are all above ground for the same reason that bodies are buried above ground.

In the event of a flood, "those tanks will start to float, shear their couplings, and we'll have the release of these rather volatile compounds," van Heerden added.

Because gasoline floats on water, "we could end up with some pretty severe and large -- area-wise -- fires."

"So, we're looking at a bowl full of highly contaminated water with contaminated air flowing around and, literally, very few places for anybody to go where they'll be safe."

"Imagine you're the poor person who decides not to evacuate: Your house will disintegrate around you. The best you'll be able to do is hang on to a light pole, and while you're hanging on, the fire ants from all the mounds -- of which there is two per yard on average -- will clamber up that same pole. And eventually, the fire ants will win."

The levees intended to protect the city vary in height, from as low as 10 feet above sea level to about 14 feet, he said. They too are vulnerable because they are made of earth, he said.

Previous studies have suggested a catastrophic toll in lives and property if a major hurricane were to hit the New Orleans area, where about 1.3 million people live.

"...You're going to have enormous waves develop on that lake (Pontchartrain), especially with as much as 14 hours of hurricane-force winds," he said. Those waves will erode the levees, raising the possibility of their collapse, he said.

www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/katrina.doomsday/

CNN BREAKING NEWS AP:
Quote:

Huge oil spill spotted near storage tanks on Mississippi River downstream from New Orleans, state officials say. Details soon.
www.cnn.com

Quote:

They wanted to leave, but they had little money and an aging pickup. So they hunkered down.

In the next two days, the water rose — to ankles, to knees and, finally, to their chins. They made themselves a fort, stacking a sofa on top of two end tables, a futon on top of the sofa and a rubber mattress on top of the futon. The ceiling was a foot from their face when they climbed up the furniture. Snakes came. Dead squirrels floated by. Love tried to rescue the neighbor's dog that was chained to a nearby fence, but the animal tried to bite him. The dog died, and his carcass, draped over the fence under the blazing sun, began to rot. A body was also drifting nearby. The smell became unbearable.

On Thursday, fire ants floated in and attacked Love and Burbin, crawling onto their legs, into their hair. That was the last straw. They grabbed their last pack of hot dogs and a package of dry ramen noodles and made a run for it, slogging through the water for four hours before reaching downtown.






Compare that to this statement:
Quote:

I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did appreciate a serious storm but these levees got breached and as a result much of New Orleans is flooded and now we're having to deal with it


I guess ONE of the lessons is: Pay attention to your experts!

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Friday, September 2, 2005 9:19 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
And the lessons are....???



1. Pay less attention to the enviromental concerns and more attention to pratical needs. This applies to the oil situtation and the topsy-turvy thinking in 1999 that made enviromental cleanup of the that lake a bigger priority then the levy project.

2. Mandatory Evacuation means just that. Yet we need to figure out means to evacuate those without the means to leave without aid. Elderly and such.

3. Shoot looters (the ones carrying TVs, not the ones carrying diapers and water).

4. We need a Domestic Rapid Deployment Force similar to the military ones we keep in readiness for an international crisis. 15,000 troops (for want of a better word) ready to go on a moments notice to respond to a domestic crisis of this magnatude. Seems to me we could reactivate a military command like the 7th Light Infantry and make them kind of a cross between the National Guard and Coast Guard with a special legal status making them a federal unit but allowing domestic operations without a congressional state of emergency, maybe training them to respond before, after, and during floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. Equip them with helicopters and swift boats. Include MASH units, MP battalions, and field kitchens. Such a unit could have deployed by helicopter to the Superdome and other areas on Monday or Tuesday to act as a stop gap until the aid convoys finally punched through on the ground.

5. How about some lesson about building your house upon the sand.

6. A more diversified national energy infrastructure.

7. Better preparation on an individual and family level.

Edit: 8. Pay attention to the experts (but not the liberal ones).

Many, many lessons to be learned here. Oh, and one for our European friends warning them about the dangers of complacancy and overconfidence.

H

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Friday, September 2, 2005 9:45 AM

JAHZARA


I'm not suprised most of the people are black. In the south, Black people are most consistently the poorest and have the least amount of resources. NO isn't a rich city to begin with, and a great many the people who couldn't get out were those who didn't have a way to leave the city. There is a lot of poverty in NO, away from the dazzle of Marti Gras and the French Quarter.

Living here, as a Black American, I'm aware of the racism that exists, but I've only been to NO a few times, so really don't know how bad it is there. In Baton Rouge, its kind of an undercurrent. Where I go to school, its MUCH worse, so it really just depends on the region. The point is that I can't help imagining (and praying that I'm wrong) that action is not happening sooner bc there is not the apple pie american family on the TV screen.

I pray to God that I'm just paranoid, but how fast were things mobilized for other natural diasters? Every time I turn on the news, I feel ready to cry. I'm trying to mobilize some kind of campus effort here, along with a lot of other people and drives that are ongoing, and aid the centers we have. They are filled to the brim with people. And let me just tell you, bad things are happening here too. There's no looting, but a four-year old girl was raped at one of the centers. People are afraid to leave their houses in BR, there's rumors of people being killed for their vehicles and rescue workers being attacked when they run out of food.

A few days ago, I thought we would actually be cleaning up by now.

Please, pray for us all.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 9:53 AM

RUXTON


News source, just now:

Did you hear that Venezuela has offered its Medical Airlift Command for the evacuation of peoples trapped in these devastated regions? Holland has offered the resources of its Public Works Ministry (and they are the acknowledged world experts for below-sea-level water evacuation procedures). Russia has offered over 100,000 temporary living structures, along with military personnel to assist their American counterparts. Iran [IRAN!!] has offered 1 billion US dollars in immediate assistance and guaranteed 5,000,000 barrels of oil at $35.00 US. China has offered its miliary rescue forces (who are acknowledged as some of the best in the world for rescuing people in flood-ravaged areas).

ALL OF THESE OFFERS and more, the U.S. military leaders of the U.S. have declined. U.S. Dept. Bulletin NCO:13788...states that this must remain an INTERNAL ACTION.

(I have not verified this bulletin but don't doubt it, because I read yesterday that similar offers from Canada and France have been RE-f***in'-FUSED!)

Can anyone call this leadership?

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Friday, September 2, 2005 10:26 AM

RUXTON


SignyM:

No, you're not the only one with that impression. I slept poorly Sunday night knowing the disaster was striking New Orleans at that time. Michael Moore declared in an open letter to Bush that he was aware of the hurricane in Florida the preceding Thursday. Surely the national weather advisers would have informed the significant members of the White House this was about to happen.

Yet Bush plays GOLF? And the mainstream media IGNORES this? There were some goddamned football games on a night or so ago, as though they were important or something.

At least MSNBC has had full coverage of it since well before landfall, and in fact covers nothing else that I have seen, since Sunday last. Their news personnel also declared the government completely incompetent in this matter, so some of the word is getting out. But what does it take to infuriate people enough to take action?

The U.S. has no decent leadership at all, nothing but worthless government employees who care for nothing but themselves.

-------------

Addenda about looters. As one on-scene reporter explained, those who take TVs and other valuable but seemingly needless items apparently trade them for desperately needed water, food and clothing. Shooting these people is not the correct response. You'll just enrage the survivors.


HERO, your Number 4 suggestion is already in place. It's the National Guard, which is foolishly deployed in Iraq with all its helicopters. What I think we need instead is Washington leadership with intelligence.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 3:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Apparently the emergency management for NOLA was contracted out by Homeland Security to Innovative Emergency Management (IEM). So maybe it wasn't the fault of local and state government, but the current fascination with spending gobs of tax dollars on private contractors. I'll have to research IEM's role in all this.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 6:55 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Ruxton:

ALL OF THESE OFFERS and more, the U.S. military leaders of the U.S. have declined. U.S. Dept. Bulletin NCO:13788...states that this must remain an INTERNAL ACTION.

(I have not verified this bulletin but don't doubt it, because I read yesterday that similar offers from Canada and France have been RE-f***in'-FUSED!)

Can anyone call this leadership?



I CAN'T BELIEVE WE WOULD REFUSE AID! Bush SHOULD BE IMPEACHED!!! Wait:
Quote:


Global Aid Offers Pour Into U.S. in Katrina Aftermath
Sept. 2 (Bloomberg) -- At least 40 nations and international organizations have offered aid to the U.S. as Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and the federal government struggle to cope with rescue and relief efforts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

The U.S. government will accept any assistance that can help survivors of the storm, Sean McCormack, a State Department spokesman, told reporters yesterday in Washington. Katrina killed hundreds, possibly thousands, in four Gulf coast states and flooded 80 percent of New Orleans.

``The pictures that we see on television are hard to bear,'' German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder told reporters today at the Chancellery in Berlin. ``It is not only our historical duty, because we've received unlimited help from the American people after the war, but it also goes without saying.''

The U.S., the world's largest economy and a leading a provider of global disaster-relief and foreign aid for decades, will take handouts even from poorer nations, such as the Dominican Republic and Sri Lanka, which have offered to help, according to the State Department.

``No offer that can help alleviate the suffering of the people of the affected area will be refused,'' McCormack said.

Cash, Boats

The State Department now is trying to ``match offers with needs,'' spokeswoman Joanne Moore said. Items offered include cash, boats, aircraft, tents, blankets, and power generators.

Sri Lanka is making its $25,000 donation through the American Red Cross, which is running the largest relief operations in the hurricane-ravaged area.

Having suffered the tsunami of December 2004 ``the people of Sri Lanka and I fully comprehend the grief and the sense of loss experienced by the victims of the hurricane,'' Sri Lankan President Chandrika Bandaranaike Kumaratunga said in a statement.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a target of criticism by the U.S., offered $1 million to the Red Cross through Citgo, the U.S. subsidiary of the country's national oil company. As many as 2,000 Citgo refinery workers in Lake Charles, Louisiana are homeless, Venezuelan embassy spokeswoman Arelis Paiva said.

The U.S. has tentatively agreed to Germany's offer of airlifting, vaccination, water purification, medical supplies and pumping services, Schroeder said. The aid is ready to go on German air force and chartered planes, he said.

France has offered 600 tents, 1,000 camp beds, 60 generators, and three portable water-treatment plants, Denis Simonneau, deputy spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry, said at a press briefing. A 60-strong disaster relief team could be sent ``very quickly,'' and two planes, two naval ships, a hospital ship, and 35 aid workers are standing ready in the Caribbean, he said.

Power Generators

Australia said it will donate $8 million to the American Red Cross. Japan said it will give $200,000 to the relief group and is also ready to provide an additional $300,000 worth of tents, blankets, power generators, and water tanks. Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura telephoned U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today to offer help, the Japanese Embassy said.

``What you see is a combination of things: cynical efforts to get in good with the U.S., from people like Hugo Chavez, but there is genuine good will,'' said Michael Mandelbaum, a professor of foreign policy at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies. ``It's the government's policies that are unpopular, but people have a reservoir of good will for Americans.''

Gasoline shortages are among concerns facing the U.S. after the hurricane damaged at least eight refineries. The Bush administration has already decided to offer refiners oil from its national reserve of crude oil.

Oil Shortages

European Union governments agreed to provide oil reserves to the U.S. to plug shortages triggered by Hurricane Katrina, EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana told reporters before a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Newport, Wales today.

``There is international assistance that might actually make a real difference, and that's on oil,'' Mandelbaum said.

Yevgeniy Khorishko, spokesman for the Russian embassy in Washington, said Russia has offered aircraft and specially trained search-and-rescue specialists. He said his office is still waiting to hear from the U.S.

``The offer was made several days ago to the United States, and the new offer was sent yesterday,'' Khorishko said. ``They are assessing what they need at this point.''

Potential Donors

Other nations or organizations that have offered assistance are: Austria, Bahamas, Belgium, Canada, China, Colombia, Cuba, Dominica, El Salvador, the European Commission, Greece, Guatemala, Guyana, Honduras, Hungary, Indonesia, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Lithuania, Mexico, NATO, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, the Organization of American States, Paraguay, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Spain, Switzerland, the United Arab Emirates, the U.K., and the UN High Commission on Refugees, according to the State Department.

Katrina came ashore Aug. 29, bringing 140-mph winds and a storm surge of more than 20 feet. Estimates of damage throughout Louisiana and Mississippi as well as Alabama and Western Florida exceed $25 billion.

The region's death toll isn't known. Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco has estimated thousands of people died in her state. Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour has put his state's fatalities at about 150.

About 15,000 to 20,000 people have been stranded without help around New Orleans, a city of 500,000 before the storm and the largest metropolitan area affected.

As many as 15,000 troops headed for the city after public order collapsed.

Katrina and its aftermath is likely to rival the 1900 hurricane that killed at least 8,000 in Galveston, Texas, and the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire that killed up to 6,000. Damage from Katrina is expected to exceed the losses from Hurricanes Andrew in 1992 and Camille in 1969, the worst storms in the U.S. in recent years.

The U.S. House of Representative cleared $10.5 billion in immediate disaster relief, and President George W. Bush said he'd sign the measure tonight.



Sorry. Apparently the US is accepting aid. ALthough, asside from cheap oil, I'd turn down aid from Iran. And we can do without aid from the Chinease military.

I'm most impressed by Venezuela's offer and the one from Sri Lanka of all places because of our recent political history with the former and disaster experiance of the latter.

My favorite line: ``No offer that can help alleviate the suffering of the people of the affected area will be refused,'' McCormack said.

I read this to mean we are accepting aid. Bush-haters see things different: No aid means Bush has failed to accept aid to alleviate the suffering of the victims while accepting aid means Bush has failed to prepare us to handle it ourselves.

My only question involves the picture of the dozens of flooded schoolbuses in a New Orleans lot. Why didn't the Mayor use those buses on Sunday to evacuate all those people they had lined up outside the Superbowl?< http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015>

H



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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

nobody thought this would be this bad
Well before the hurricane hit, meteorologists were predicting a 25 - 30 ft storm surge, overtopping the levees by 10 - 15 ft. What were the people 'in charge' thinking was going to happen with that? If they had been prepared for the surge they would have been prepared for levee failure. But events prove they were completely unprepared for anything.


My cynical side says national preparation went something like this - well, if it hits Florida, Jeb can take the photo op. But there's no opportunity for us in Louisiana.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

My only question involves the picture of the dozens of flooded schoolbuses in a New Orleans lot.
Your ONLY question? Wow. I guess you're not one for questioning authority, are you?

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:58 AM

DINEKES


OK everybody,

I would like to call your attention to an initiative (set up by Shellgazer) on the OB (prospero forum)...
Please read this thread, if you want to donate money or goods ( http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=25333.1)

Here's the text:

'Katrina victims, immediate assistance'
Hmmm, catchy post title, eh?

You know me, I'm all about the efficiency. And the charity efforts :).

So I thought we should compile, into one thread, the many ways Browncoats can provide assistance to those suffering devastation from Hurricane Katrina.

It would be most helpful if everyone who donates time, money, or goods to post in this thread. We can calculate our total Browncoat efforts and spin it for "Serenity" promotion.

Here's a rundown of what you'll see in this thread, giving opportunities for every taste and budget:

The New England Browncoats have just created a charity donation site for those in need after the effects of Hurricane Katrina. All money will go directly to the American Red Cross National Disaster Relief Fund. The website JustGiving.com funnels all money to the charity with no middleman.

They have exceeded their established goal twice and now are hoping to raise $2,000. If you want to make a donation, you can visit the donation site at http://www.justgiving.com/pfp/NEBHurricaneRelief.
=============
For those willing to house refugees:

http://www.hurricanehousing.org/
============
For Browncoats in the Houston area:
http://www.bloghouston.net/item/1770
This lists where to give, how to give, and volunteer opportunities.
=============
For those concerned about the animals in the area: http://www.noahswish.org/
=======
For those attending DragonCon, look what Adam's doing :).
http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=25330.3
25
=======
The Browncoat Commissary is pledging to donate all proceeds made between now and Sept 17 to the American Red Cross for disaster relief efforts on the hurricane ravaged Gulf coast.

The Browncoat Commissary ( http://www.cafepress.com/browncoatshop)
==========

Total Browncoat Goal: $15,000 in donated cash and goods. $1,000 for each hour of Firefly. We can do that. We are mighty, after all.
=====

Adam, at this moment at DragonCon, announced this ( http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=25330.3):

<
I hereby officially volunteer to donate all 90% (10% covers agents' expenses) of money collected at my Dragon-Con "Walk of Fame" signing session to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

Please come by and get a signed photo or two (or more), and know that the contribution will be given, in the name of Browncoats and FF/Serenity fans everywhere, to the specific charity this here thread deems the most effective at directly helping those in dire need.

May our hearts, prayers and assistance now go out to those suffering from the devastation of this catastrophic Hurricane.

Many Thanks to all who may read this and hope to see you at Dragon Con!

Please pass the word...

Serenity always!

A.B.>>

Later today, he posted this ( http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=25373.30)

<
I had nearly two hundred visitors contribute just over $4,000.00, in one day alone, to our Browncoat fundraising effort for people affected by Hurricane Katrina.

My heart is humbled by your kindness and generosity!

I hope to see as many, or more tomorrow.

Words cannot express my gratitude for your efforts...

Your fellow Browncoat,

A.B.>>

I don't know if this has been posted anywhere else on FFFnet, but I thought you liked to read about a few Browncoat initiatives...




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Saturday, September 3, 2005 8:36 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


This is such a terrible event





people need shelter and food, they are desperate

washingtonpost.com and usatoday.com are asking many questions,
there are old people dying in the street

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