Karl Rove Betrayed CIA Agent's Cover - Anyone Surprised? by Knibblet

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Karl Rove Betrayed CIA Agent's Cover - Anyone Surprised?

POSTED BY: KNIBBLET
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 08:44
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Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:16 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge- Let me add one more thing. If there are any reasonable conservatives (Geezer, for example) who want to know if ardent Bush supporters have even one toe dabbling in reality, just read this thread. It should answer that question.

Summoned, I appear.

And I gotta say...frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

A third of the population of Botswana (one of the most free, peaceful and successful African countries) have HIV or AIDS. Islamic terrorists have no compunction about killing anybody in the name of their beliefs. Weyerhauser Corporation fires employees for having deer rifles in their trucks in the company parking lot...on the first day of hunting season...in Minnesota. Children are starving to death in several countries in Africa while their leaders use food as a political tool and divert aid money to their Swiss bank accounts. Europe is turning from a collection of individual countries with their own styles and ways of life into a homogeneous mass of mediocrity. Etc., etc., etc.

And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin? If I thought anything constructive would come out of this argument, either way - or if the real-world solution would actually have an impact on the world, either way - I'd get involved. But it's just mental masturbation, as far as I can see.

Guess I'll open another topic that will go nowhere, since it actually requires solutions, not opinions.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, July 20, 2005 6:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?

ALL I worry about??? Did you write that with a straight face, or were you chuckling at your private joke? Apparently, you've missed about a hundred posts!

Quote:
If I thought anything constructive would come out of this argument, either way - or if the real-world solution would actually have an impact on the world, either way

Hmmm... are you saying it doesn't make a difference who's in the White House?

Quote:
- I'd get involved.

What does it take to get involved anyway? Write your Congressmen. Or link up to the four or five website that allow you to email instead. That's all it takes for God's sake!

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Wednesday, July 20, 2005 7:04 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
[off topic] Many Americans are living a deep contradiction. On the one hand, they feel morally and militarily superior. On the other hand, they fear. But they have yet to experience that cold, still moment when survival calculations take place. When they are shocked into THINKING. Because they haven't truly taken the measure of their opponent, they are likely to act in dangerous ways

I don't really think you were off topic because what you said goes right to the heart of the matter. I was listening to a radio program the other night and I was very aware of the responses of the people calling in, the superiority and the selfrightiousness in most of the callers made me cringe..not that it was anything new but I couldn't help but focus on that aspect. It made me sad because its our own ignorance and stupidty thats going to make us suffer and we will suffer.

reading through this thread is just another example. Some can't even admit that a top offical in the president's administration has more then likely committed treason, not because he didn't, but because they just want to be right and see how much this admistration can get away with, and because we all know the rabit hole is very deep.

The fact of the matter is if Bush and CO says no crime has been committed then - NO crime has been committed. Its as simple as that and who is going to challenge such a decision?.

you say that many Americans are living in a deep contradiction, and you are right in that assesment.

We are also living with an admistration, and people who support it who don't value or believe their own ideology, the end justify the means.

People like that are dangerous!! People like that will sell their own mother for the right price. Now that is scary, but true and very sad at the same time.

Its that truth and that realization more then anything else that is sealing our fate.
We can wallow in the moral self-rightiousnes and
militarily superiority up to our eyeballs, its just making us that much more ripe for the picking.

Isn't that really part of the basic problem. Its very hard to give up that edge. Americans are loosing their status of top dog and superiority on every level here at home and in the world. Everyone else around the world is realizing this it seems except us. denying this to oursleves isn't helping us, its making us weaker. Most of us don't realize that our own attitude is hurting us. We are not evolving and we can't take respossiblity for what we don't acknowlege.

when... not if..... but when!! someone drops a bomb on us, or some other tragic outcome. I doubt if anyone will be able to find much comfort, in self rightiousnes and feelings of superiority.

The orginal poster of this thread asked a question. Karl Rove Betrayed CIA Agent's Cover - anyone surprised??

The answer is NO....I don't believe anyone is surprised not Bush Not Cheny and certainly nothing this admistration does surprises me or anyone. but its easier to feign surprise or denial rather then fess up that you are someone who doesn't value or believe your own ideology and for the right price you would sell out your mother your country or anything else for that matter.

I'll tell you what will shock the hell out of me and truly surprise me.

If Karl Rove takes the fall for this and actually goes jail....

but thats not likely to happen!!!

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 4:35 AM

BARNSTORMER

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?
ALL I worry about??? Did you write that with a straight face, or were you chuckling at your private joke? Apparently, you've missed about a hundred posts!
Quote:
If I thought anything constructive would come out of this argument, either way - or if the real-world solution would actually have an impact on the world, either way
Hmmm... are you saying it doesn't make a difference who's in the White House?
Quote:
- I'd get involved.
What does it take to get involved anyway? Write your Congressmen. Or link up to the four or five website that allow you to email instead. That's all it takes for God's sake!

No SignyM, for Christ sake just read the post and stop trying to stir the pot of contraversy.

You personally were not the subject of Geezers post. What Geezer wrote was "all you all worry about is how many Karl Roves........"

The posts in Real World Events have just been forums for the spouting of Political Rhetoric.
Nothing is accomplished but for the Far Far Wingers to vent their respective Spleens and blame all the worlds problems on their specific self proclaimed demons.

The moderate voices of reason just

with attempts to invoke a sense of reality to the topic of the day, and are promplty labeled (wrongly) as the lap dog of (insert your party here).

I for one (or another after Geezer) am sick to death of the abysmally stupid rants of the far far wingers. And deeply sorry for the efforts I have given to express my own VERY MODERATE opinions and explanations to the deaf of ear, heart, and reason.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 6:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

[off topic]

Quote:
You personally were not the subject of Geezers post

I wasn't? Maybe Geezer should clarify whether he meant the singular "you" (SignyM) or the plural "you" (everyone participating in this thread or RWE forum). It's source of confusion, and a deficiency in the English language not to make that distinction.

Quote:
The posts in Real World Events have just been forums for the spouting of Political Rhetoric.

In the Talking Point thread, we discussed how we can get past the whole "talking points" approach (where people talk AT each other and not WITH each other). Nothing gets resolved here because (1) posters are often not clear what they're trying to say, quite often tossing in three or four topics in one paragraph (2) reponders refuse to directly answer on-topic questions and insted(3) throw in all kinds of distracting chaff. I suggested a new approach, in which the person who starts a thread gets to define the topic and has to come up with a clear statement, and the responders have to stay on-topic. You know- general respect for the discussion at hand. It might be worth a try.

As for "nothing being accomplished"... progress isn't made until we find vision that goes beyond "the way things work now". Our most automatic assumptions are the most invisible and often give us the most difficulty. But Galileo changed his point of reference and suddenly the motions of the heavenly bodies made sense. We have some very bright people here, and a unique opportunity to engage in two-way conversation, something that our mostly one-way mass media (billboards, TV, magazines, radio etc.) doesn't allow us to do. It would be a shame to waste it.

[/off topic]

Back to our regularly scheduled topic...

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:10 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
[off topic]

Quote:
You personally were not the subject of Geezers post
I wasn't? Maybe Geezer should clarify whether he meant the singular "you" (SignyM) or the plural "you" (everyone participating in this thread or RWE forum). It's source of confusion, and a deficiency in the English language not to make that distinction.

"And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?"

Sorry, SignyM, but I don't consider you all the people involved in this thread. In this case I was noting that the Karl Rove thread, including side trips to Mr Churchill and the real meaning of "suspend" has garnered more posts than anything since the first of the month, followed by the "Chopper killing farmers" thread. Both these began with "Guilty until proven innocent" allegations and devolved into the usual Evil Empire vs. let's let the system work debate, with a few insults thrown in for good measure.

I'm just so tired of all these remakes of the same movie.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Dang! Now HOW did I miss that??? Sorry Geezer, my eyes just skipped over that word.

So- how to get get past the same old remakes?

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:24 AM

BARNSTORMER

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
[off topic]

Quote:
You personally were not the subject of Geezers post
I wasn't? Maybe Geezer should clarify whether he meant the singular "you" (SignyM) or the plural "you" (everyone participating in this thread or RWE forum). It's source of confusion, and a deficiency in the English language not to make that distinction.

"And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?"

Sorry, SignyM, but I don't consider you all the people involved in this thread. In this case I was noting that the Karl Rove thread, including side trips to Mr Churchill and the real meaning of "suspend" has garnered more posts than anything since the first of the month, followed by the "Chopper killing farmers" thread. Both these began with "Guilty until proven innocent" allegations and devolved into the usual Evil Empire vs. let's let the system work debate, with a few insults thrown in for good measure.

I'm just so tired of all these remakes of the same movie.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Amen to that.

It's like trying to watch a new movie premier just to have someone change the reel after the first 30 seconds to replace it with the same old episode of "The simple life".

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 9:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay- We all decided that we don't like the same old same old. Nobody changes their POV and so the discussions are static ("stasis" not "noise"). The only way to move the discusion forward is for people to come to them with open minds, not simply turning them into wrestling matches where evasive maneuvers, dodges, and eye-gouging is allowed.

So, I'm going to ask a question that is ON TOPIC, and I hope to get an answer: Why should "we" (the public?) wait until Karl Rove (or any politician?) is indicted (convicted?) before discussing (reaching conclusions?) about his activities? Or, to back up a step...maybe someone will step forward and clarify what they think is the appropriate action to take. I will listen and reply respectfully and directly. Thanks.

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:03 AM

PERFESSERGEE

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'm gonna have to do the unexpected here and defend AJ.

His statements, as they were written and as analyzed by perfessergee, do lead to the logical fallacy described above. But, I think it's mostly a matter of presentation. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong AJ) that his point was something more like this: Rove hasn't been convicted of anything yet and it's wrong to treat him as if he's guilty until he has been.

I certainly feel differently. From my point of view, the wrong that was done has already been openly acknowledged. To me, the wrong part was starting a whispering campaign to damage the credibility of a critic. It just seems underhanded and something that ought to be beneath officials at the White House.

Sarge, I have to both agree and disagree here. I agree with your last paragraph, but I beg to differ that reasoning can be a matter of presentation. Presentation counts in propaganda and manipulation, but not in reasoning. You just can't build a valid argument based on fallacious reasoning.

One of the things we've been doing on this thread (many of us, me included at times) is that we've failed to clearly distinguish between criminal culpability and "wrongdoing". The latter obviously includes all of the former, but certainly not vice versa. Wrongdoing can include lots of things that are ethically despicable but don't rise to criminal conduct (or at least don't result in any convictions). And we rightly put safeguards into criminal matters, including a presumption of innocence until conviction. Rove has not been convicted of anything, and calls for jailing him are unwarranted as yet. But the legal presumption of innocence is not the same thing as a lack of culpability, and we are all free to speculate away as to the truth of the matter (and don't we all do just that

!).

Man this thread is getting long! Is there any way to split it, or does someone have to just start a new thread?

taking forever to download perfessergee

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:16 AM

BARNSTORMER

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay- We all decided that we don't like the same old same old. Nobody changes their POV and so the discussions are static ("stasis" not "noise"). The only way to move the discusion forward is for people to come to them with open minds, not simply turning them into wrestling matches where evasive maneuvers, dodges, and eye-gouging is allowed.

So, I'm going to ask a question that is ON TOPIC, and I hope to get an answer: Why should "we" (the public?) wait until Karl Rove (or any politician?) is indicted (convicted?) before discussing (reaching conclusions?) about his activities? Or, to back up a step...maybe someone will step forward and clarify what they think is the appropriate action to take. I will listen and reply respectfully and directly. Thanks.

Out of respect I will try to answer. Please note that any percieved partisan slant read below is in your own imagination.

"Due Process"
I do not mean the Legal definition of it, but more the MORAL reason WHY it is such an important piece of the bedrock which the American Legal system is laid on.

Anyone can accuse wrong doing.
Anyone can manufacture evidence.
Anyone can lie.
Anyone can mislead.
Anyone can inflate the Rhetoric to make the small, seem big.

Any one of these things can ruin the reputation of an innocent citizen, or, conversly hide the guilt of another.

It happens on both sides of the spectrum. The Rhetoric surrounding the "Karl Rove" issue by the Democrat side of the isle is just as bad as the Rhetoric of the Republican side used during the "Monica Lewisky" issue.

In both cases (as in all pushbutton issues) the Rhetoric is STUPID, NON-CONSECUENTIAL, and DEBASING of the dignity of the American political system.

Who cares if Clinton was fooling around with Monica. Thats a reflection on his personal morality and love of his family. It should never have gone as far as it did. But the Republican Rhetoric elevated it to near impeachment.

Shame on the politicians, and shame on the media for eating it up and not investigating impartially.

"Please note that the below is not a known official finding but my best guess at this time due to the fact that the special prosecuter has not reported his findings as yet."

Who cares about Karl Rove and Valerie Plame. She was not an undercover operative at the time of the supposed "outing" if he in FACT "outed" her. She was never in any danger anyway due to having been out of the field work for the past 6 years. After all she had already been outed by the Russians and Cuba about a decade ago.

Shame on the politicians, and shame on the media for eating it up and not investigating impartially.

And last of all, shame on all the constituents who ride the Hysterical Rhetoric Train rather than their own God given ability to reason for themselves.

It's this sort of behavior that hurts our country much more than it could ever help it.

This post was rather quickly written. If I had taken more time, I never would have chosen an issue like Karl Rove since it is still an open issue, so in reality what I wrote is not proveable at this time. Therefor, I claim the right of "Artistic License" in this case since I am only trying to make a general point.

SignyM, pick away at this if you wish. I'm not going to change it due to the fact that this is really only my opinion on why Political Rhetoric is "BAD" and the fact that my boss has noted my typing away on discussion board which is "BADDERER"

Good Day

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:36 AM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
The posts in Real World Events have just been forums for the spouting of Political Rhetoric. Nothing is accomplished but for the Far Far Wingers to vent their respective Spleens and blame all the worlds problems on their specific self proclaimed demons.

geeze tell us something we don't already know oh moderate one!!! LOL,

your right nothing is ever acomplished, and from the looks of it, its not likely to change, you have to aim to want to acomplish something, but mostly people just want to vent. thats why I post only when I have the need to say something even if I am venting!!!

Quote:
The moderate voices of reason just with attempts to invoke a sense of reality to the topic of the day, and are promplty labeled (wrongly) as the lap dog of (insert your party here).

oh yes let us not forget the wise moderate voice, because only the moderate can invoke reason and reality right!!! Wrong!!!

you fail to realize that we are not living in a moderate government, the moderate has no place or home in the Bush Administration your a fast an dying breed under this Administration where most people feel compelled to choose a side, you either stand for something or you stand for nothing, thats the way they want it , even most people who try to resist find themselves falling into the trap.

A moderate is just looked at as someone who is afraid to go out on a limb where the fruit is , sure some people fall off the tree but they still get the fruit. the moderate gets nothing except for maybe a perch on the tree where he can look down at the people eating their fruit!!

Quote:
I for one (or another after Geezer) am sick to death of the abysmally stupid rants of the far far wingers. And deeply sorry for the efforts I have given to express my own VERY MODERATE opinions and explanations to the deaf of ear, heart, and reason.

They can hear you, some might even agree with you, but they aren't likely to get any fruit hanging out with you!!!

Then why even bother to post Oh MODERATE ONE!!!LOL!!! Obviously engaging in rants from the far far wingers is so far beneath you!!

sorry I couldn't resist!!

I know the real world folder is sooo serious but we all need a good laugh from time to time!!!

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 12:01 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
It happens on both sides of the spectrum. The Rhetoric surrounding the "Karl Rove" issue by the Democrat side of the isle is just as bad as the Rhetoric of the Republican side used during the "Monica Lewisky" issue.

I just knew the Monica Lewinsky- Clinton thing was going to be brought up..Why I ask...its apples and oranges.

Clinton had an affair...

Karl Rove is essensially being accused of Treason, two totally diffrent things that don't even compare.

If we go by the definiton of what conssitutes treason in our country, then outing a CIA agent defintely fits that bill.

if someone in the Clinton or any democratic Administration had done what Karl Rove did and likely Cheny too, they would have already been thrown in jail.

But this is the Bush Administration, and what Bush and CO says goes..if they say no crime has been committed then no crime has been committed. They always bend or change the rules for themselves!!! and its as simple as that!!

Anyone who knows Karl Rove's tactics and M.O knows he is not innocent he is a criminal and he's always used machiavellian, devious, dirty crimnal tricks to get what he wants, he's a liar and a cheater a manipulator and can tell he's sick, Outing a CIA operative to further is own agenda is hardly unthinkable. Did Bush and Cheny know about this and give him the greenlight, of course they did..but will Rove take the fall..in an administration that makes up its own rules as they go along where even the law does not apply to them its not likely!!!

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Thursday, July 21, 2005 1:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Barnstormer- Good points. And I hope the boss is a nice guy/ gal!

EDITED TO ADD:

Jenny- I understand your frustration. I'm trying to limit my responses to Barnstomer's statement, so if I don't respond to you immediately it's not because I necessarily disagree.

Quote:
"Due Process"
I do not mean the Legal definition of it, but more the MORAL reason WHY it is such an important piece of the bedrock which the American Legal system is laid on.

Anyone can accuse wrong doing.
Anyone can manufacture evidence.
Anyone can lie.
Anyone can mislead.
Anyone can inflate the Rhetoric to make the small, seem big.

Any one of these things can ruin the reputation of an innocent citizen, or, conversly hide the guilt of another.

It happens on both sides of the spectrum. The Rhetoric surrounding the "Karl Rove" issue by the Democrat side of the isle is just as bad as the Rhetoric of the Republican side used during the "Monica Lewisky" issue.

In both cases (as in all pushbutton issues) the Rhetoric is STUPID, NON-CONSECUENTIAL, and DEBASING of the dignity of the American political system.

Who cares if Clinton was fooling around with Monica... Shame on the politicians, and shame on the media for eating it up and not investigating impartially... It's this sort of behavior that hurts our country much more than it could ever help it.

So I shouldn't trash-talk Rove, O'Reilly shouldn't trash Wilson, and Gingrich shouldn't have trashed Clinton because it's too easy to ruin a reputation by rumor and innuendo. Do I get your point?

But then, in order to avoid the free-for-all that seems to have taken over politics nowadays, it sounds like nobody should say anything about anybody ... unless it's nice? I'm sure that isn't your intent, so you must have some sort of ideal in mind how people can exchange information and opinions without "trashing" people.

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Friday, July 22, 2005 5:18 AM

BARNSTORMER

Cut and paste from SignyM post above.
************************************************
So I shouldn't trash-talk Rove, O'Reilly shouldn't trash Wilson, and Gingrich shouldn't have trashed Clinton because it's too easy to ruin a reputation by rumor and innuendo. Do I get your point?

But then, in order to avoid the free-for-all that seems to have taken over politics nowadays, it sounds like nobody should say anything about anybody ... unless it's nice? I'm sure that isn't your intent, so you must have some sort of ideal in mind how people can exchange information and opinions without "trashing" people.

End Cut and Paste
***********************************************

I think there is a big difference between "Trash Talking" and "Inflated Rhetoric".

For instance, in another thread I expressed my personal opinion of Ward Churchill (It was not flattering). Again, it was only my personal opinion of the mans character based upon his "Little Eichman" essay and other publications he has made in the past. I call that "Trash Talking".

Regardless of my personal opinion of his character however, the decision to dismiss him from his teaching post should not be based on the "Inflated Rhetoric" of the Left and Right wing media, but on whether or not he falsified his resume to get a tenured position in his college.

Those who use "Inflated Rhetoric" show only one thing (again in my opinion). They show that they don't care whats morally right or wrong, or what is truthfull or a falsehood. They only care that they win the argument based on their original premis. In other words, they can't admit they were wrong. Or WILL not admit they are wrong because it will undermine their agenda.

Argueing the points of a certian issue is not in the least a bad thing, it is in fact the best thing that can be done to keep our country on the right track. But only if the participents keep an open mind with the mutual goal of SOLVING the problem at hand. Not winning the arguement at all costs to prove that their organization is the one that "knows and see's all".

Your statement above calls the political situation of late as a "Free for All". This is with out a doubt true in both the political arena as well as the arena of the media. And I also believe that the fault lays squarely with the "Far Far Wingers" of both these arenas.

The users of "Inflated Rhetoric", Hyperbole, and the disengenuous (sp) are the ones that have caused this turn of events. I for one think it is a great internal threat to the freedoms we have in our country.

We have got to get our collective heads out of our asses soon. Very soon.

Once again, this has all been my own personal opinion. Whether or not this "Labels" me in one dasterdly way or another is of no concern to me.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Friday, July 22, 2005 5:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And that's where the endless disputes over what is an isn't factual come in. If what one says is true it's by definition not inflated rhetoric, and the other way around.

So in order to prove they are 'right' and not guilty of inflated rhetoric, we find people weasling around single words and phrases. Or changing the topic, not answering the questions, stonewalling on simple facts, making ad hominum attacks etc. Rather than discussing the issues.

Don't you find that frustrating? I do.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, July 22, 2005 5:57 PM

SERGEANTX

Barnstormer has made some excellent comments here that I think warrant further discussion, but it's starting to take a LOOOOOOONG time to load up this thread, not to mention the topic has broadened beyond the Rove thing, sooo, I'm starting an extension thread to this one. I'd love it if you all join me.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, August 28, 2013 8:44 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

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