FIREFLY UNIVERSE

Buffy vs. River

POSTED BY: VOSHEXETER
UPDATED: Monday, May 8, 2006 16:30
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VIEWED: 7484
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Friday, April 7, 2006 6:03 AM

VOSHEXETER


Okay. I'm a Firefly fan first and foremost. But, getting sucked in to the Joss Universe, I've also just started getting into Buffy. Chances are its already been debated before, but does any one have any thoughts on who would win in a fight between Buffy and River.

This is totally trivial I realize. I don't think we can even start talking about this until River subconciously channels into her inner trained warrior. Buffy has an advantage in that she's coherent and controls her training. But what if Buffy suddenly pissed River off and stumbled onto River's battle mode? Battles of epic proportions would most likely follow. Any thoughts? Feelings? Insights? Again, I'm new to the Buffy verse, no question. Were there ever any characters in Buffy which were similiar to River?

"The river is wide. I cannot cross."



voshExeter

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Friday, April 7, 2006 6:12 AM

WHISPER


I think it truly would be a very interesting fight to watch.

River might win, if Buffy got caught in the moral ambiguity of the fight. River is human after all.

Moral ambiguity aside, Buffy would eventually win, i think, due to her super strength and stamina.



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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:13 PM

GRIMLOCK


Its not stated but i think there is evidence that River has more than just training/programing.

Consider that she hasn't practiced, trained, worked out or even stretched for 8 months before the fight in the Maidenhead.

That she is able to perform at that level without regular physical conditioning suggests some level of physical/chemical enhancement.

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:40 PM

KAZE


I think River would win because i believe a great deal of her fighting ability isn't strictly skill and strength although that does come naturally to her from her genius background but more cause she can read minds. She'd know what Buffy was gonna do before she did it. On the other hand Buffy being a more trained and practiced fighter could theoretically fight without thinking about it, but Buffy has said that she uses her emotions as an asset in a fight and I would think River could read that easily enough.

Anyways River's mind reading ability is also why i didn't find any of the fighting in Serenity hard to believe at all.

So i think it would be an interesting fight but i feel River would have a significant advantage although i think if Buffy knew ahead of time exactly what she was up against she could win but that kinda goes both ways and River can read minds so again i feel she has an advantage.

At that point though things can get very debatable i mean if you want to consider everything, like where the fight takes place or what verse it takes place in. Whether their friends can help. Things can get more and more complicated. Anybody can beat anybody under the right circumstances.

So that's my opinion. That being said i also don't like Buffy, i liked the show but i don't like Buffy. Doesn't effect my opinion at all but i thought everyone should know.

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:57 PM

SIGMANUNKI


The one argument that keeps coming up for River winning is the whole reading minds thing.

First off, we have no idea if she can actively do this. Secondly, if she can, we don't know to what extent she can. Third, how much energy/time does it take to do it? Fighting isn't exactly a look at the person for second/minutes to read there thoughts. It's a split second thing, otherwise you get hit.

But, assuming all this (Which is exactly what people are doing. Making gross assumptions and assuming further that they are fact.), Buffy has found creatures that could read minds before and won.

That and the fact that Buffy has the whole super-power thing going on, Buffy would win.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:07 PM

KAZE


Well i feel River proved many times that she can actively read minds in combat and use it to her advantage between Firefly and Serenity so i didn't assume anything.

I don't remember Buffy fighting anything that could read minds and was it something that could read her mind in combat? I may have just forgotten.

Anyways regardless as i said it depends on circumstances. I could name a hundred scenarios where Buffy would win and then a hundred where River would win. Even without mind reading i could think of a buncha ways River could win although any straight fights would most likely go to Buffy in that case.

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:41 PM

DATALESS


I think River might be a slayer. She has just about every thing buffy has strength speed and agility. River being the creature of Extraordinary grace could be a nod to her being a Slayer. The mind reading for River Seems to take no time or energy for her to read minds. I think that the people at the Academy are trying to create an army of Reaver killers. So when you find a child of the grace and mind of River Tam you use it to the best of your ability. If she were a slayer wouldn't that be like hitting the once in a lifetime jackpot. For those who have read Fray I'll put the next statment in Spoiler speak.

Select to view spoiler:


Fray is a slayer and has lost the mental part of being a slayer. The dreams of past slayers fighting, what a vampire is, ect... So what if that part of a slayer is lost to all slayers to come after Fray.


So is it possible that River is a slayer? If she is than she is as strong as Buffy and if she can read minds as easy as we think then who would win? I think River would easily beat Buffy under those conditions.

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:10 AM

SIGMANUNKI


@Kaze:

That's exactly it! You feel. But, where in the eps (or movie for that matter) has she shown this ability.

The sad fact of the matter, is that the only place where she displayed this ability, is when she was in a room with Top Alliance brass, and accidentially gleaned something. That is the only point in which she read mind(s).

Remember OiS? When everyone was talking about River and she was below listening? Pratically, this is probably how she found out a lot of stuff.

How about when she was walking around? She didn't display any ability to control what she was getting.

Also, remember that conversation? Mal didn't even say that she could read minds. "Or near enough." was what he said.

Nothing was laid out in stone in the series and nothing was told in the movie either.

Re: Buffy:

It was in either season 2 or 3. The ep where she aquired the essense of the monster and gleaned the ability to read minds. Nearly drove her nuts.


@Dataless:

Everyone, including you says things like "mind reading for River Seems to take no time or energy for her to read minds". Yet there is no, in this scene, this is why I think that way.

Also, you are mixing worlds. There is no supernatural in Firefly. That was Buffy, this is Firefly. They are not the same.


In general, I find it interesting to see people say that they are not assuming anything, and then use phrases like, "it seems to me" and "I feel" in the discussion. It's rather contradictory.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:17 AM

CHRISISALL


Buffy uses a Kickboxing style, whereas River employs a kind of combat Tai-Chi combined with Wushu.
I feel River's superior style would make all the difference, and allow her to emerge victorious in the end.

Martial Arts expert Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:19 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Style seems to be unimportant. It is the ability to adapt that is important.

Remember the scene in Buffy when Spike killed the Kung-Fu slayer?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:35 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Style seems to be unimportant. It is the ability to adapt that is important.

Remember the scene in Buffy when Spike killed the Kung-Fu slayer?


Spike used broken rhythm to move into her, her style was too fixed. River adapts in a way impossible for that slayer to match, with such traditional training.
However, you're right that the ability to adapt is key.
Fan of Bruce Lee, are you?

When the opponent expands, I contract Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:20 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Style seems to be unimportant. It is the ability to adapt that is important.

Remember the scene in Buffy when Spike killed the Kung-Fu slayer?




Spike used broken rhythm to move into her, her style was too fixed. River adapts in a way impossible for that slayer to match, with such traditional training.
However, you're right that the ability to adapt is key.




But, Buffy adapts and uses her surroundings as well. Remember Spikes comments when he video'd her to study her fighting style when he first arrived in Sunnydale?


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Fan of Bruce Lee, are you?

When the opponent expands, I contract Chrisisall




Who isn't?

My personal style is extremely defensive. It can be described as attack the attackers attack. So, by definition I have to adapt constantly. Though I doubt I could pull it off anymore. Haven't practiced in a many moons.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:28 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

My personal style is extremely defensive. It can be described as attack the attackers attack. So, by definition I have to adapt constantly.

Sounds like Wing Chun (my most practised style).

Okay, how about this, whoever got the first throat strike in would win?

Compromising Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:16 AM

DATALESS


Let's start with your belief that the only time she gleams any info from one single person she gets allot from him. She doesn't just get the whole Message that was sent to Parliament from Miranda (she mouths what the girl says) she knows the location of the planet, the name of the planet. That Reavers were on that planet (actually seeing one while on Miranda) She also says she hears all those people telling her to speak for them (Firefly ep "Serenity" when we first see River jump out of the icebox she was in she tells Simon this much) and that they are saying nothing in the movie. It messes with her mind so much she actually kills someone in the institute (Session 416, the viral campaign for the movie) and makes her lose mind only to get some of it back at the end of Serenity the movie. Session 416 has much more about River. She always did love to dance.

If you remember in the episode "Objects in Space" With Jubal Early, she knew things she couldn't and with the little girl in Safe. She was deemed a witch, "Spinning Falsehoods", which weren't so false. Also she knows the Hands of Blue two by two are near when ever they see to be (Ariel). In the movie Mal said, "She's a reader, see into the truth of things...", if you read the comic you might have more info in her.

Did she look drained or tired to you? Did she even look upset by some of the thing the crew said about her? The only time she even looks like it has any affect on her is dealing with the Reavers and she looks more overwhelmed then tired she soon gets up and runs and the every reads them minutes later with, "They want us alive with they eat us."

It might seem like she is just guessing or just seeing things out of her crazy mind but she was always right. It also looks like she doesn't have a single scratch on her at the end of that fight. Mal looks like he fought an army she look like she took a brisk walk holding two very strange edged weapons but still only slightly out of breath. How could she avoid all those weapons strike and darts without some sort of help? I doubt even Buffy could do that. Hell when it was well literally hell or at least inside a hell mouth with a shiny new weapon and ten other Slayers around her she got hurt pretty bad.

As for Slayers they have visions of monsters before they are called and a sense of vampires and demons when they are near. Some slayers are stronger with the ability than others. Everyone needs to read Serenity "Those Left Behind" and should read "Fray" they are both written by Joss Whedon and very good.

In that episode where Buffy goes crazy when she reads everyone’s mind it's because she reads everyone’s mind all at once with no way to block it out. She is overwhelmed by voices that just never stop. if you had your TV on, your radio blasting and hundreds of other audio sources playing loudly wouldn't it drive you mad but you could turn off the power and end it, she had no way to shut it out. That episode was where Jonathan was in the clock tower and he was going to kill himself but it was the lunch lady wanted to kill everyone (Earshot). Just so we are clear Buffy can't read minds for long than that week in which stopped people from dying from rat poison, as for as I know no slayer has ever had the ability read minds other than in Earshot.

So with all this evidence I don't just feel I know she is Psychic but to what extent is the question.

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:02 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Dataless:

Let's start with your belief that the only time she gleams any info from one single person she gets allot from him.




No offense, but I stopped reading here. You got your assumptions wrong. I never said I believed this.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:06 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

My personal style is extremely defensive. It can be described as attack the attackers attack. So, by definition I have to adapt constantly.




Sounds like Wing Chun (my most practised style).




Looks like I reinvented something... well at least to a certain extent. Not exactly surprised. Too difficult to come up with original thoughts now adays.


*sigh* Wouldn't it be great to live in a time where we could actually come up with new shiny stuff?


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Okay, how about this, whoever got the first throat strike in would win?




LOL, I imagine that's true!

*shakes hands with Chrisisall* Truce.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:30 AM

KAZE


This entire conversation is only based on what we each feel. Nothing can be proven one way or another. I could give examples and all that but i don't really feel a need to prove myself. I stated my opinion. I don't care if i'm disagreed with, don't even mind a little friendly debate but there's no need to be antagonistic about it. This is why i generally don't post on forums.

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:38 AM

VOSHEXETER


There is a possibility that River and Buffy wouldn't even fight at all. If they met each other, they might actually hit it off and go shopping or something. Or maybe do some collaborative slaying or reaver killing. A powerful duo, no question.

voshExeter

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:28 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@Kaze:

So, you're willing to post your opinion, but not ok if someone take exception to it and points out its flaws? So, you're not willing to discuss?

Why again did you post?

I'd also like you to point out where I've been antagonistic. Because from my point of view, I've just engaged in conversation. But, if you think that pointing out flaws is antagonistic, then I would highly suggest that you re-think what a debate is.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 2:57 PM

FARFLY


As much as I like both Buffy and River (I could see them shopping together), if no weapons were allowed, I think Glory would whup them both.

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by farfly:
As much as I like both Buffy and River (I could see them shopping together), if no weapons were allowed, I think Glory would whup them both.

And Supergirl could flatten her.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:35 AM

KUANGZHEDE


This seems like the umtenth time this has been discussed but it is always fun. I am pulling for River (at maximum rage, of course). I know, I know...Buffy has super powers and all. River is just a fluid killing machine. Everybody wants to bring up "reader" but I think Rivers natural ability to adapt and learn would make Buffy's ability to combat her extremly difficult. Buffy may be stronger and more resilient, but it is hard to win if you :
A: Cant hit your opponent
B: Your opponent knows your moves before you do
C: Your opponent can learn your style in 3 seconds by just watching you.
D: Your opponent is not busy having an engaging conversation with the enemy
E: Your opponent's goal is to kill you at any cost. Just because River moves like silk in the wind when she fights, I would not put it past her to crush an opponents skull with a large rock.

Buffy- Valley girl with superpowers who fights generic demons with 3rd grade martial arts.
River Tam- Goverment trained, psychic, super genius, hyper physical adaptability, murder machine.

Kuang Zhe De



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Thursday, April 13, 2006 5:13 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by KuangZheDe:

Buffy- Valley girl with superpowers who fights generic demons with 3rd grade martial arts.
River Tam- Goverment trained, psychic, super genius, hyper physical adaptability, murder machine.



I don't disagree on any particular point, sir.

*liked the part about 3rd grade martial arts*

Chrisisall, bending like a reed

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 5:25 AM

AMYEL


There was a slayer named Dana in Angel season 5 that had to be "inspired" by River (i.e., insane and ass-kicking). I think that was the character closest to River in the Buffyverse.

I don't know why River and Buffy would be fighting each other at all. Even if Buffy pissed off River for some reason, River could read Buffy's mind and know that she's good and whether or not she's annoying, there's no sense in fighting her because they're on the same side. Plus, Buffy has enough sense to know if her ass is gonna get kicked, she runs the hell away. That's not counting if River is triggered into Kill mode, which would count for why they'd be fighting, but that still doesn't discount Buffy running for it (locked doors/barriers do not keep a slayer for very long). And wasn't River detriggered anyways?

Now, Willow vs. River would be another thing. Willow has no superstrength at all, but she occassionally goes bad and she's talented at teleporting/disabling people from a safe distance. River might be able to sense if someone is doing mojo, but it's hard to fight someone who is doing stuff to you from someplace that is elsewhere.

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Friday, April 14, 2006 12:21 PM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA


Yeah, but River would know any way to counter whatever magic Willow uses that Willow knows. The only problem is she may not know she knows it.

If anyone gets nosy...Shoot em.
Shoot em sir?
Politely.

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:51 AM

ERYK


Well they come from completely different worlds and you have to take into consideration many things. Like does buffy have all of her friends and the slayers scythe? River is definatly more graceful than Buffy, but Buffy is the chosen one. And theres one more question i have, why are they fighting? that could be the deciding win or loss. i dont think they would fight each other.

Im sorry, did i give you the impression i was askin?

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:56 AM

ERYK


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:
Yeah, but River would know any way to counter whatever magic Willow uses that Willow knows. The only problem is she may not know she knows it.

If anyone gets nosy...Shoot em.
Shoot em sir?
Politely.



well technically river would use logic. meaning she would be confused by any thought of magic because its highly improbable, thus throwing her off (:

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:48 PM

VINTERDRAKEN


Think River would win since she can resort to low tricks like shooting buffy. Also, I just like River better

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

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Friday, April 28, 2006 1:37 AM

WHEDONFANUK


River Would kick Buffys azz

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Monday, May 8, 2006 4:30 PM

EMVER


As a newbie to this site, I feel I'd like to contribute to this vote.

Amen to comments like "I just like River better".

Of course River would win. Of course that's only an opinion. But it does seem that she is superior in every way. I've watched all t he episodes of Buffy, but that was a long time ago now. But River strikes me as being unbeatable.

I often wonder though, how is it they were able to hold this amazing being against her will anyway? Those "Hands-of-Blue" guys seemed a little on the scarily "seemingly unbeatable" side too. So could River beat them.

"No force in the Universe can beat me" quote (ummm....that might not be the exact line) seems to imply differently, however.

Paradoxical?

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