TROLL COUNTRY

I don't Care What You Believe...Just Believe.

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Monday, July 31, 2006 13:15
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Friday, March 17, 2006 8:29 PM

RIVER6213


This is a thread dedicated to people trying to find their reason's for being. Their reason's for living. What makes one person get up everyday and fight for another day while another person caves in and gives up? You decide what that is for yourself.

The River that Fell

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:10 AM

EVILDINOSAUR


Yea, that's an awesome quote, that and "If you can't do something smart, do something right" Both good lines to live by. I should start wearing a bracelet that says WWBD, What Would Book Do? hehe

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:53 PM

CHINDI


yeah... or what would MAL do???



chindi pondering and pondering..

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:19 PM

RAT


"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."

A Christian would never say that...worst line in the movie, not that it had much competition!!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:41 PM

FOLLOWMAL


Yeah, I'm with Chindi, I want to know what Mal would do.

*waves at Chindi!*



" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:18 PM

RIGHTEOUS9




No way. It's a great line, and totally within Book's character, in my opinion. It speaks from the soul of a man who believed strongly in whatever it was he once believed, and then suddenly was set adrift, lost and listless, until he found something new to believe in.

What he knows is that there is something desolate about having nothing to live for but survival itself. He knows the compulsion to live won't overcome the mounting sickness that is either apathy or despair.

Where one finds that meaning is not a matter for him to be judgemental about..."judge not lest ye be judged," after all, and Book is not a preaching Christian, but a practicing one, and therein lies the difference.


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Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:33 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Rat:
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."

A Christian would never say that...worst line in the movie, not that it had much competition!!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE



Don't get me started on what I think regarding Christians. If you were a true believer of Christ you wouldn’t have even said that. For some people a belief is a concept that is difficult to grasp. Sometimes life comes down to finding something to believe in; sometimes a belief in anything, a car, a boat, the stars, or the earth is a beginning, a start to a much bigger belief and faith of a power greater than ones self.

A lot of Christians I have encountered in this day and age are so self-righteous, and full of themselves in a way that makes God look bad, and chases away the people who were sincerely seeking God’s love, protection and help. Most Christians I’ve encountered are really doing the work of evil, yet they don’t see that….they think that they are bringing the light of God to someone. Self-righteous bastards! Put them up against the wall I say!

River

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:50 PM

RAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
...Book is not a preaching Christian, but a practicing one...







Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Don't get me started on what I think regarding Christians.



Who asked?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 12:01 AM

RIVER6213


And your point is?
You self-righteous Christians make me want to vomit up blood.



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Sunday, March 19, 2006 6:41 AM

FITZ


did u scan that pic of the comic in or is there a website? i already have the comic but would be nice to get it on computer as well...


Men of Honour - coming soon to a Blue Sun Room near you...

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 7:11 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



Yeah, even as I posted I remembered that part of the comic. I don't think it invalidates what I'm saying though.

Book is the type of man who accepts a prostitute into his heart without feeling the need to convert her or cleanse her of sin. More than that, he confides in her his fears and doubts, and even looks to her for some guidance(1st episode).

I think, when he says that he brings "the message to those who need hearing it," that he really means to those who have nothing to hold onto, who have nothing to believe in. He's not overly concerned with people who have meaning already.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:09 AM

GRIZWALD


I don't think that quote stands all by itself in the BDM. I may be alone here. But I think it was all part of the same thought. Book had just said the name "River" -- and then he said that about believing.

I think he meant, "I don't care what else you believe, just so long as you believe what River tells you."



____________________________________________________
They could not take the sky from them -
Our Big Damn Heroes made a film!
I'm gonna see Serenity then
go back the next morning and see it again.
Cuz no one at Fox knew this show had no equal
C'mon Universal, and greenlight the sequel!

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:08 AM

LADYKNIGHT


It's also possable that he said that spifically to Mal because, with Mal so unbeleaving, if he dosen't ever beleave in ANYTHING then nothing can return him to faith in God. He opens his heart to faith, then, strange as it sounds, God gets a foothold in his heart again. It may be small...but it's a start, and a wise preacher like Book would know that some plant the seeds, some tend the seeds, and often the origional planter dosen't live to see the harvest.

At least, that's how I've always justified that line.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:14 AM

RAT


http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/preview.php?theid=10-844


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Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:15 AM

RAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
I think, when he says that he brings "the message to those who need hearing it," that he really means to those who have nothing to hold onto, who have nothing to believe in. He's not overly concerned with people who have meaning already.



If you're right, then book is not a true Christian, which I won't argue, because it may very well be the case.


____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:33 AM

SERENITYSEEKER


Howdy fellow Browncoats, thought I'd jump in and add my two cents. I must say I admire Book for his representation as a Christian figure in the 'Verse. In modern society, it's easy to stereotype Christians as very self-righteous and pushy of their religious beliefs. As a Christian myself, I have encountered people with these tendencies and it's made me upset. My sister and I, for example, differ in our own religious expression. She's very gung-ho about getting the Gospel message out and being very upfront about her beliefs. Me, I'm one who reflects as much of what I gather Book's theology is. You can't MAKE someone come to God anymore than you can make a person become your friend. As Christians, I believe we are supposed to be nonjudgemental of others and loving towards all. Yes, I am not afraid to sit down and discuss my faith (note, not religious beliefs) with a person, but I am always willing to so in a tone of understanding. Book seemed to reflect this attitude that even though some of these individuals had no need for his faith, he still presented an attitude of compassion towards all of the crew. We, Christians, should live a life that is admirable and for those who may have struggles finding something to believe in, we should then present a shoulder to lean on and a word of advice. Anyways, that's just how I think. If anyone would care to discuss this further, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Oh yeah, does anyone know where I might be able to find a copy of those Serenity/Firefly comics? It'd be pretty shiny to find a few.

Keep flyin'.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:40 AM

LAMPYRID


I agree with Grizwald that the quote is being taken out of context.

The full quote is:

"River..."
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."
"Whatever She...".

In the Visual Companion the full quote is:

"You... it's on you now.. all this death, this shit... you have to find a course. This can't mean nothing."
"River... you have to..."
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."
"Whatever you have to..."


I see Book as saying:

"I don't care what you think of God, you better have faith in your beliefs because they are the only thing that will walk you through this."

Once River shows them Miranda, there's no going back; they know the secret. The Alliance must now hunt down and kill them all.

To paraphrase Jayne:

There is no "smart" way out of this. (They no longer can turn River in, hide or flee.) They can only stand by their beliefs and "do something right".

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 11:32 AM

AX


What is a 'true Christian', out of curiousity? Did you find the definition in a dictionary or something?

I ask only because last I checked there are about a billion different sects all of which claim to be 'true Christians', and I was unaware that the debate had been finally put to rest. But since it has, I'd be happy to hear exactly where you found it, and how it happened.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 11:46 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



I don't think that that context colors it much differently...

and I don't think the important part is that he's saying "I don't care what you believe, just believe what river tells you."

Think about Mal here. How much coaxing would it take for him to believe that the alliance was screwing with people's heads, or even gasing people. I don't think much...he hates them already and I'm sure he saw all kinds of attrocities perpetrated by them during the war, in the name of something better.

It's not for the trip to Miranda that Mal needs to here these words, its for doing something meaningful once he finds the evidence of the deeds...that's where belief, or purpose I guess, becomes a factor...that's when things stop being about just getting by day to day.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 12:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Rat:
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."

A Christian would never say that...worst line in the movie, not that it had much competition!!


Damn the Christians! I believe in the Lords Of Kobol!!!!!!!!!!!!


ChrisisallYAHOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 12:20 PM

THEPISTONENGINE


There are no true Christians, only true heathens.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 12:43 PM

JAYTEE


Every time I meet someone who claims to be a "true christian" I want to turn around and leave as quick as I can. The only people I find more repugnant are the muslim jihadists. A "true christian" will just shun you if they can't convert you. A muslim jihadist will want to kill you if they can't convert you. Either way, they both suck, just to different extremes. Whenever God gets into the mix things get all messed up. If HE truly exists and wants us to worship him in a particular manner wouldn't it make sense that He'd be better at communicating that than what we now have which is just a collection of conflicting religions all claiming title as the "one true faith"? All in all I think that over the centuries religions have done more harm than good in the name of God. Personal faith is great but religion is for sheep, self-righteous assholes and lazy manipulators who won't seek an honest job.

Jaytee

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 2:34 PM

DONCOAT


This preacher's kid is going to use a ten foot pole on the "true Christian" issue. Let's just say I've known some very fine and wonderful Christians, and some... not so much.

However, I think it's important to keep in mind that Book is talking to Mal in this scene, not some random stranger or possible convert. Book knows Mal well, well enough to have formed a good idea of Mal's instincts and tendencies. I think Book trusts Mal, and knows that when Mal finds something to believe in it will be "something right".

Taken out of that context, I'd agree that the statement is nonsense. After all, some terrible things have been done by people who wholeheartedly believed in things -- like slavery, the extermination of some religious or ethnic group, or that (say) babies are best served medium rare on a bed of rice pilaf with a nice brown gravy. I don't think Book's words should be taken as validating those sorts of belief.

Incidentally, my father once said something similar to me: that faith is in and of itself a Good Thing. I didn't, and still don't, fully agree with that, but I can certainly understand that point of view.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:21 PM

TAMNUMBER1


I have to admit, Shepherd Book's last words have been troubling to me.

Oh, but first, I suppose I should give a short intro (seems like the thing to do): new Browncoat, saw movie first, then watched show in three days, all commentaries, seen movie 7 times, all episodes at least three times, etc, etc. Also love Star Wars, Jane Austen, Sherlock Holmes, and Lord Peter Wimsey.

Kay, with that out of the way, the reason this quote troubles me is as follows. When coupled with Book's earlier line "When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I'm referring to God?" The implications seems to be that Book is advocating faith, regardless of content. As a (small voice) conservative, evangelical Christian (oh, and Reformed to boot) , I think the content of one's faith is quite important, so the implication of Book's dismissing content as irrelevant is a bit problematic (like ice planets, only different, see?) :-)

As for finding meaning, Christianity is about much more than just finding meaning - though Firefly doesn't get too deeply into what Book's faith is, it does hint that it is something that changes people into something better (see Bushwhacked and Jaynestown). In theological terms, that would be sanctification.

Also, I find the issue of Book's judging the crew quite interesting. He isn't usually confrontational, but I think little moments show he retains moral standards - the Special Hell moment in Our Mrs. Reynolds, his conversations with Jayne (showing that he can respect and care for a man and still retain strong disagreement and concern about his actions), and his introduction to Inara (showing his growth from mere judgment to actually relationship with someone who does what he considers sinful for a living).

I think that the fact that Book accepts wisdom from Inara and offers comfort to the whores in Heart of Gold does not mean he accepts their behavior. To me, it's a strong example of how Book is trying to be a good witness for his faith by not being confrontational and loving others as equal beings, but not participating in or condoning the actions or beliefs of those around him.

To those who see Book's quote to Mal as he dies as needing context - I'm with you all the way. Though I think the earlier conversation with Mal indicates that a broader idea of belief is necessary, I think Book is specifically talking about believing in River and what she shows him to do what it takes to let the 'verse know that man can't make man better.
I also like LadyKnight's very good analysis of Book's relationship with Mal - that poor fuzzy-wuzzy heathen.

Very much agreeing that people can make other people believe in God (or make them better - those two things are impossible, which is by only God can do them - the impossible is His specialty). Not sure if we are supposed to not judge, but the purpose of our judging is not to condemn, but out of compassion and fear for other's souls - not to be more righteous than others (worms don't have anything to brag about). :-)

Finally, I think a note on belief in the film is in order - Joss is most definitely not advocating faith in anything. In the first place, he explicitly says that the Operative is a believer, and we see he is definitely evil (for that matter, the Operative sees that he is definitely evil :-) ). Thus, the content of faith does matter, since true believers can be monsters. Second, in the commentary, Joss says that belief is something Mal's avoided because of the potential it has to make him like the Operative (which is kinda like point one only different). While leaders need belief, they also can be corrupted by what they believe in if they have faith in the wrong object. Third, Joss has made clear that he is telling a perspectival drama, which means that he doesn't necessarily advocate what a character says. So, if Book is saying "Believe whatever the heck you want" Joss and the film don't necessarily back it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Light it." - Simon, "Safe"

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Monday, March 20, 2006 5:20 AM

WOEBRINGER


As to the line in the movie, it applies to Mal, that is, to get the job done, that's what Book needed Mal to hear, nothing more....My opinion.

/rant on

As far as the "true" christian discussion.... In my experience, both in my personal, and work life, I'm surrounded by these "true" christians. The similarities between these folk?... Lack of tolerance, and the notion that they know what's best for all. They spew their ignorance.

I'm sick of it...If you don't support the current administration in the U.S., you aren't an American. The fact that I don't agree with the administration's direction DOES NOT equate to the idea that I don't support our troops. If you tolerate homosexuals or are pro-choice, you aren't a christian. If this is so, then I suppose I'm not a "true" christian. Thank God for that. My heathen God. So the "christians" can feel better.

/rant off

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Monday, March 20, 2006 6:56 AM

HARDCORE


Christians are not to tolerate those things that rebel against God. Homosexuality does that.

Does that mean that I should debase and hate a homosexual? God forbid! You LOVE that person, even more than a potential partner would! The SIN is detestable, but God is LOVE, and we are to REFLECT that love in EVERY SINGLE PERSON WE MEET, regardless of who they are.

Does it mean I should go on a religious tirade against a group of Muslims? GOD FORBID! You get the word to them, you talk to them, you love them, no matter how they feel about you. PLANT THE SEED, AND GOD WILL GROW IT.

The Internet's thought on Christianity is that the trend is to hate us. To mock us. You're not mocking me, brothers and sisters, you're mocking Christ in me. My feelings aren't hurt. I'm not outraged. I will still love you and pray that you all come to Christ before it's too late.

To the Atheists - prove to me there's no God. :)

Book held onto his ideals, onto the righteousness that God gave to him through his boundless grace. Book will ALWAYS be my favorite character, and, I can only pray that the actor that played Book is a Christian.

Being a Christian is not to judge others. We are to judge one another as Christians. We have to. Everything we do becomes so corrupt due to our sinful natures(if a Christian ever tells you they are better than you, you give them my email address - I'll be sure to put them back on the right path). Everything. Our religion, our denominations, it's all corrupt at one time or another.

Take, for example, the Pentecostal faith. Someone could stand, at any time, yell out something, even gibberish, and another person will stand and claim it to be "angelic" language and translate it. During the early age of the church, as Acts records it, the languages spoken by the apostles were EARTHLY languages, spreading the Gospel so that ALL could understand it, regardless of racial or land boundaries. We've corrupted that teaching and claim that a bunch of nonsense is God's language. IT'S NOT. However, these same people LOVE JESUS, and for that, I can overlook my personal thoughts concerning their religion and worship with them fine. I have.

The point of the matter is that Jesus is alive and well, and if ANYONE would want to know more, please, email me. I love to talk shop(I'm training to become a Shepard ), and more importantly, I want to show you all that the "self-righteous" aren't the only ones around, and help you in any way I can. Just don't ask me to drive a ship.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 8:18 AM

WHOME


Quote:

Originally posted by Woebringer:
As to the line in the movie, it applies to Mal, that is, to get the job done, that's what Book needed Mal to hear, nothing more....My opinion.



I agree. Book knew Mal's past, and knew why Mal was so troubled. He wanted to give Mal something to carry him through.

As someone who has "lost faith" myself, I really connected with that line. I don't miss religion, but I do miss faith. I miss believing in something- anything- so much bigger than myself. No preacher of any religion or denomination will ever have the ability to bring me back to religion unless I decide I'm ready to come back. But I am finding other things to believe in.

To those how said Book isn't a "real" Christian: First, the nature of Christianity has changed dramatically over the past couple of thousand years. Second, who's a better Christian: the person who prays with a starving man, or the person who gets him some food? Preaching is all well and good, but there's no point in preaching to someone who's choosing not to hear it. Sometimes practical concerns are more important than spiritual concerns.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 8:20 AM

WHOME


Quote:

To the Atheists - prove to me there's no God. :)


Prove to me there is one.

I can't make you believe there isn't, any more than you can make me believe there is. We believe what we're ready to believe, when we're ready to believe tit.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 8:40 AM

RIVER6213


I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving, but I’ve met plenty of mean, selfish, control freaks who claim that they are Christians while at the same time laughing at the poor, and being racists towards blacks and other people.

This reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was feeling kind of low, so I decided one Sunday to go into a church and just listen and watch people. There were all of these expensivly dressed people about, and there was enough glitter in that church to feed at least half of the 3rd world. Everyone sat down and the church service started. In the middle of the sermon that was being given by a pompus, church leader, some old guy walked into the church and sat in the back. He was obviously poor based on his clothing, and he look sad, but he was quiet, but unfortunately for him, he was black which didn’t go over to well with the good, respectable Christians at that church. The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave! When he left I left with him and we went and had coffee somewhere and talked.

So, I guess poor people aren’t invited to god’s house unless they have money, position and status. I guess this was another sick example of good Christians at work. I say put ‘em up against the wall.


River



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Monday, March 20, 2006 8:46 AM

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION


...tap tap tap....

Still waiting for Ax's question to get answered...

...tap tap tap....

While I am waiting on that, I can't help but ponder how some Christians seem to be a might....meddlesome. Much like the alliance. Hummmmmmmmm

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

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Monday, March 20, 2006 9:22 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



Okay...If God is love, then why is there a "too late?" That would be his own creation wouldn't it, and not a very compassionate one.

If God is love, then wouldn't two people of the same sex actually be experiencing God when they embraced their love for each other? Or are you going to sit in judgement over what love is as well? I.E. love is intolerance("not to tolerate," as you put it) in the name of the lord?

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Monday, March 20, 2006 9:38 AM

AMYLISAI


Thanks RIVER6213 and Righteous9 and others for "fighting the good fight" for tolerance.

I've read this thread with much interest and thought for the last few hours of different things I'd like to say in response. But I'll just boil it down to this:

People are people. I will never be able to understand the "differences" such as "race". We all have legs and eyes and brains and hearts.

Why do some ppl look at Mormons and say "they're not Christian" and Mormons look at other Christians and say "they're not Christian" (etc etc, there are over 700 types of Christianity!) Why is it so hard to just relax and be tolerant? Why do people have such a hard time with that? Especially from religions that say "G-d loves all his children"...

It makes me sad. As a Jew, I have several times been the target of "Christians" who wanted to convert me "before it was too late" or simply bigots who hated me for no purpose but to humiliate me.

The world is such a beautiful place, full of so much variety and exciting variation. Would it really be more interesting if everyone was of the same faith and believed the same thing? (for one thing, we wouldn't have this thread! bye bye intellectual discussion?) If that was what G-d had intended, wouldn't G-d have just done so?

We are humans. By definition we are imperfect beings and do not understand the universe.

Therefore, relax. Let's think about tolerance.

[Except for tolerance of Fox cutting Firefly. Obviously that's gotta go. We should convert everyone to Firefly :) Just thinking of the funny parallels....]

here's to repairing the world,
Amy

(yeah, bracing myself for more hate. shruggin shoulders)

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Monday, March 20, 2006 9:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Rat:
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."

A Christian would never say that...worst line in the movie, not that it had much competition!!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE




Won't say much about it being the worst line in the movie, but I think it's right in line w/ Book's character. Book knows Mal, and knows of Mal's view on God. It's likely that Book also suspects, if he doesn't flat out know, that Mal USE to believe in God. Book is a preacher, whether newly ordained or not, I'm guessing he's seen what the power of belief can do for a man. Book also knows what the lack of belief can do to a man.

Select to view spoiler:


Book is giving Mal a important piece of advice on how to live life, before he loses his own. It makes perfect sense that Book would try to save one more soul as his last act in the 'verse.


Book speaks to Mal in a way which he can understand, and I think we see the fruits of that exchange later on.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:09 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by amylisai:
Thanks RIVER6213 and Righteous9 and others for "fighting the good fight" for tolerance.

I've read this thread with much interest and thought for the last few hours of different things I'd like to say in response. But I'll just boil it down to this:

People are people. I will never be able to understand the "differences" such as "race". We all have legs and eyes and brains and hearts.

Why do some ppl look at Mormons and say "they're not Christian" and Mormons look at other Christians and say "they're not Christian" (etc etc, there are over 700 types of Christianity!) Why is it so hard to just relax and be tolerant? Why do people have such a hard time with that? Especially from religions that say "G-d loves all his children"...

It makes me sad. As a Jew, I have several times been the target of "Christians" who wanted to convert me "before it was too late" or simply bigots who hated me for no purpose but to humiliate me.

The world is such a beautiful place, full of so much variety and exciting variation. Would it really be more interesting if everyone was of the same faith and believed the same thing? (for one thing, we wouldn't have this thread! bye bye intellectual discussion?) If that was what G-d had intended, wouldn't G-d have just done so?

We are humans. By definition we are imperfect beings and do not understand the universe.

Therefore, relax. Let's think about tolerance.

[Except for tolerance of Fox cutting Firefly. Obviously that's gotta go. We should convert everyone to Firefly :) Just thinking of the funny parallels....]

here's to repairing the world,
Amy

(yeah, bracing myself for more hate. shruggin shoulders)



I never said I "hated" Christians, you put that there. I just never had a good experience with dealing with them. That was the whole point of my rant. If I could pull just one positive experience out of my mind that I have had with a Christian, then I wouldn’t rant so much, but I haven’t, so rant I shall.

We are all humans and humans make mistakes, so no one is asking for perfection out of anyone, but the Christians, at least the one's who claim that they are following Christ are on the whole, are up to no good. I have never experienced as much pettiness, bigotry, and power-tripping than I have with Christian groups. This has been my experience, therefore it counts for something.

The idea I had when I started this thread was about finding something to believe in...That something wasn’t about finding god, or it could be if viewed from another way. I meant trying to find something to hold on too to keep oneself sane. A job, a car, a hobby, friends, food, drugs, money, sex, anything that would make a person have something to look forward to. Anything that would make a person wants to get up out of bed in the morning and face themselves, and the world. That was my whole point, but, as expected with topics such as this, here comes the Christians trying to muscle in on it and turn it into a submit-or-be-destroyed-scenario.

Times like this I really wish Christians were still being fed to the lions


River



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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:28 AM

RAT


Quote:

Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
Still waiting for Ax's question to get answered...



Okay.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ax:
What is a 'true Christian', out of curiousity? Did you find the definition in a dictionary or something?



Let's do that shall we?

Quote:

Originally posted by www.dictionary.com :

true
adj. tru·er, tru·est

1.
a. Consistent with fact or reality; not false or erroneous. See Synonyms at real1. See Usage Note at fact.
b. Truthful.
2. Real; genuine. See Synonyms at authentic.
3. Reliable; accurate: a true prophecy.
4. Faithful, as to a friend, vow, or cause; loyal. See Synonyms at faithful.
5. Sincerely felt or expressed; unfeigned: true grief.
6. Fundamental; essential: his true motive.
7. Rightful; legitimate: the true heir.
8. Exactly conforming to a rule, standard, or pattern: trying to sing true B.
9. Accurately shaped or fitted: a true wheel.
10. Accurately placed, delivered, or thrown.
11. Quick and exact in sensing and responding.
12. Determined with reference to the earth's axis, not the magnetic poles: true north.
13. Conforming to the definitive criteria of a natural group; typical: The horseshoe crab is not a true crab.
14. Narrowly particularized; highly specific: spoke of probity in the truest sense of the word.



You get the idea!

Quote:

Originally posted by www.dictionary.com :
Christian, Charlie. 1916-1942.

American jazz guitarist and blues singer. One of the first to amplify the guitar, he influenced its emergence as a solo instrument in jazz.



Well that didn't help.

Quote:

Originally posted by www.dictionary.com :
Chris·tian
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.



I hope that clears things up for you!

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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:29 AM

RAT


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave!



What Church was this?
Name?
Address?
Email?


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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:30 AM

RAT


Quote:

Originally posted by amylisai:
Thanks RIVER6213 and Righteous9 and others for "fighting the good fight" for tolerance.



How is "I say put ‘em up against the wall.", ""fighting the good fight" for tolerance"?


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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:30 AM

RAT


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I never said I "hated" Christians, you put that there...

...Times like this I really wish Christians were still being fed to the lions.



Will you make up your mind?

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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:33 AM

DONCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving...

Well, then, you've never met my father, or the many thousands of people like him. And that's a shame, because there are countless Christians who really do try to lead lives that are the very opposite of the picture you paint in the rest of your post.

I'm no longer a believer in a supernatural god. But neither do I have the same picture of Christians that you do, River. I have to say that your description strikes me as a very shallow caricature, not unlike the way the Jews have been portrayed by anti-Semites down the centuries.

I hope that sometime in your life you find out that there are a lot of good people out there and that they are present among the followers of many different faiths, or none. From your posts here and in other threads it seems to me you've missed that up till now. That makes me sad for you -- nobody should have to go through life with such a dark picture of her fellow man. Especially not a fellow Browncoat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:50 AM

RIVER6213


I'm simply basing this on the Christians I've met. If there are any good ones out there, they are hidden very well

River

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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:52 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Rat:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I never said I "hated" Christians, you put that there...

...Times like this I really wish Christians were still being fed to the lions.



Will you make up your mind?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE




Feeding Christians to the lions isnt hate, its a reality show. Deal with it holy-water boy.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:53 AM

HARDCORE


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving, but I’ve met plenty of mean, selfish, control freaks who claim that they are Christians while at the same time laughing at the poor, and being racists towards blacks and other people.



I can only tell you that I am different in that aspect, as is my entire home church - Cornerstone Baptist Church of Albany Georgia. Never once have we asked a person to leave. I don't really put up with a dress code for service anyway - T-shirts and jeans for Sundays and Wednesdays for me, unless I am preaching, then, out of respect, shirt and tie. Christ's first believers couldn't afford to wear the Jewish equivalent of suits and ties, and that's the belief I follow. Denominations were created by man, CHRIST was created by God Himself.

Quote:


This reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was feeling kind of low, so I decided one Sunday to go into a church and just listen and watch people. There were all of these expensivly dressed people about, and there was enough glitter in that church to feed at least half of the 3rd world. Everyone sat down and the church service started. In the middle of the sermon that was being given by a pompus, church leader, some old guy walked into the church and sat in the back. He was obviously poor based on his clothing, and he look sad, but he was quiet, but unfortunately for him, he was black which didn’t go over to well with the good, respectable Christians at that church. The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave! When he left I left with him and we went and had coffee somewhere and talked.

So, I guess poor people aren’t invited to god’s house unless they have money, position and status. I guess this was another sick example of good Christians at work. I say put ‘em up against the wall.



I can easily condemn the actions of a church for doing such a thing, God's own WORD shows us that Christ had compassion for people, ALL people, no matter who they were in life. The Pharisees, in the Gospels, even questioned Christ on this, to which Christ replied, "But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick."[Matthew 9:12]

And, to the atheist, look out your front door. We certainly didn't create the trees and plants, and obviously, my predecessors weren't apes. :)

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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:54 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Rat:
Quote:

Originally posted by amylisai:
Thanks RIVER6213 and Righteous9 and others for "fighting the good fight" for tolerance.



How is "I say put ‘em up against the wall.", ""fighting the good fight" for tolerance"?


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*yawn*

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Monday, March 20, 2006 10:57 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardcore:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving, but I’ve met plenty of mean, selfish, control freaks who claim that they are Christians while at the same time laughing at the poor, and being racists towards blacks and other people.



I can only tell you that I am different in that aspect, as is my entire home church - Cornerstone Baptist Church of Albany Georgia. Never once have we asked a person to leave. I don't really put up with a dress code for service anyway - T-shirts and jeans for Sundays and Wednesdays for me, unless I am preaching, then, out of respect, shirt and tie. Christ's first believers couldn't afford to wear the Jewish equivalent of suits and ties, and that's the belief I follow. Denominations were created by man, CHRIST was created by God Himself.

Quote:


This reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was feeling kind of low, so I decided one Sunday to go into a church and just listen and watch people. There were all of these expensivly dressed people about, and there was enough glitter in that church to feed at least half of the 3rd world. Everyone sat down and the church service started. In the middle of the sermon that was being given by a pompus, church leader, some old guy walked into the church and sat in the back. He was obviously poor based on his clothing, and he look sad, but he was quiet, but unfortunately for him, he was black which didn’t go over to well with the good, respectable Christians at that church. The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave! When he left I left with him and we went and had coffee somewhere and talked.

So, I guess poor people aren’t invited to god’s house unless they have money, position and status. I guess this was another sick example of good Christians at work. I say put ‘em up against the wall.



I can easily condemn the actions of a church for doing such a thing, God's own WORD shows us that Christ had compassion for people, ALL people, no matter who they were in life. The Pharisees, in the Gospels, even questioned Christ on this, to which Christ replied, "But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick."[Matthew 9:12]

And, to the atheist, look out your front door. We certainly didn't create the trees and plants, and obviously, my predecessors weren't apes. :)



Well, then your church sounds like a good one. I do remember reading somewhere that Jesus Christ said something like "Come to god as you are" I guess that mean church I went to didnt get the memo.

River

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Monday, March 20, 2006 11:08 AM

RIVER6213


Awwww...
My nice little thread has been transformed into Rat's Holy Roller, Speak-in-Tongues emporium. Good job on doing the lord's work there Ratboy. When you die your god is gonna kick your lame ass.

River



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Monday, March 20, 2006 11:13 AM

RAT


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If there are any good ones out there, they are hidden very well.



That's what persecuted people do, hide.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 11:19 AM

RAT


And one more thing, I don't think I've gone by "Ratboy" on here in over a year!

edit- Sorry, I just checked, it was some time in june last year.
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Monday, March 20, 2006 11:25 AM

13


Ummm, RIvernumbergirl, can I get your number? I like your style and forwardness...i mean..

mine is 579-2136

Everyone loves God-bashing, and remember:

The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, in fact, he doesn't work at all. Not existing tends to do that..

I think a little chaos is in order.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 11:40 AM

TAMNUMBER1


Point of interest, I thought "hate" means "to wish harm on or for others."

Re: tolerance - can I be intolerant of those who don't tolerate intolerance? And for clarification's sake, love does not equal tolerance - it means to desire good for the object of love. For Christians, the good is God, and we desire that all (at least, those who read the Bible believe all) are invited to partake of that good.

Question: why is there so much anger at the Christian responders - on the whole, I don't see what they've done to deserve death wishes and name calling.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Light it." - Simon, "Safe"

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Monday, March 20, 2006 11:43 AM

HARDCORE


Indeed. God will take you as you are and make you something better...but not something to lord over others with.

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