ONE TRADING POST

Firefly Music Videos - Download Now

POSTED BY: SUCCATASH
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 3, 2003 14:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 41193
PAGE 4 of 5

Tuesday, April 22, 2003 7:29 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:



Sarahetc wrote:

if it's not got by now, it's not gonna get got.




Quite true. Trolls will always be with us in fandom. However, one never has to tolerate them.

Quote:

Hush!


See above.






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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 7:35 AM

XENARC


Succatash wrote: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 06:37 There's a funny headline in today's news - "Hacker Smacks Down Madonna"


Hehehe. What a hoot! (Although I hate it when the media insists on calling these people 'hackers') I guess that one just goes back to the old, "Ask a silly question..."



XenArc

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 7:41 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Haken was not telling me, or anyone else, how to run a website.



Never said he was, but his post was a perfect example of what we'd all been trying to tell you about acceptable and courteous behavior in fandom, and why it works out much better for all of us if people just follow some very simple and non-hurtful guidelines.

And what we've learned from you is that you think courtesy doesn't apply to you and communities only exist for you to wipe your feet on.

Whatever. Nobody expects trolls to behave, after all. But you can't adopt troll behavior and then get your back up when people recognize it for what it is and shun and vilify you.

Your choice, dude.

Quote:

not at all like mine (website) was, before it got shut down.


Karma sucks, eh?

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 7:48 AM

SUCCATASH


hooobity wrote:
"And what we've learned from you is that you think courtesy doesn't apply to you and communities only exist for you to wipe your feet on."

Not sure what community you are in, but I belong to Firefly's community. Like I said earlier, I am not a part of anyone's secret club.

My goal is to promote Firefly and get it back on the air. Fans should use artwork to promote Firefly, they should not be using Firefly to promote their own artwork.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 7:53 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Quote:

Originally posted by Viv:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.

(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.



I have looked into this kids. I have spoken with a real lawyer, not just a lawyerly type.

Violation of copyright IS theft. (Just as TragicStory stated - plagiarism and copyright law travel down the road hand in hand.)

Unfortunately, (the lawyer assured me) most copyright infringement cases do not end in jail. Instead a hefty fine is all most ever get.

In order for fan vidders to have the rights they want, they must change at least 40% of all aspects of the material that is copyrighted. That means that the music video's can't be just sectioned up and put into a different order. The video must be changed at the digital level. 40% is a lot more than most vidders have done. (at least the vids I have seen)
Also, the music which underlies the video must also be changed to the same degree. 40% That also involves changing the music at a digital level.

So, if you have followed me, the "new derivitave work" vidders have created must follow certain guidelines. Until those guidelines have been met, the copyright which vidders would like to hold on their video's is nonexistant.

I would suggest posting a valid dislclaimer of the following nature on any website you have which hosts copyrighted material from Firefly. (or anything else for that matter) --

"Since I am not the creator of the idea for the artwork I am producing, and I am not sufficiently changing it, all rights to this artwork belongs to Joss Whedon, Fox and/or Mutant Enemy - (or whoever currently owns the rights to Firefly.) As such, I cannot control the free distribution of this artwork, and there is no charge to view or download. Please be aware you may post any of this artwork on your own site, but that in order for you to charge people for the right to view, download or do anything else with this artwork, you must first contact the above mentioned copyright owners and ask their permission."

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 8:17 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:

Not sure what community you are in, but I belong to Firefly's community. Like I said earlier, I am not a part of anyone's secret club.






Boy you DO live in a vacuum, don't you? Hint; Fireflyfans.net is not the sole place where Firefly communities exists on the web. I suggest you take a look around at the hundreds of internet journals on blogspot and others where your wanking example is being held up as the pimple on the wart on the buttocks of fandom. Wait a couple of weeks and do a google search on your nick and see what your own community thinks of you and if you really are as welcome as you think you are.

After all, that's where I found this thread. Over and over again.

Quote:



My goal is to promote Firefly and get it back on the air.





Um ...yeah. Yeah. Right. By making sure the vidders stop vidding and the archivists stop archiving and the writers stop writing and the artists stop drawing because ravening weasels like you are among us?

Smart thinking, Einstein.

Quote:



Fans should use artwork to promote Firefly, they should not be using Firefly to promote their own artwork.



Man... you are a walking tower of wank.

"Fans should produce so I can steal it and do whatever I want with it", is what you've said to the fandom. The fandom is saying "No thanks" back to you. Get the hint.


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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 8:26 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:




This has never been simply about law. It's been about community and the willingness of the fans to produce artwork and fiction and vidding material IF (and that's a big darned IF) an atmosphere of trust exists in the fandom.

Destroy that trust and the fandom implodes.

Guys like Succatash voided that trust. Therefore, the vids are gone. New and wonderful vids won't be released where people like you and succatash can get at them. Rail about the law all you want, the fact exists that the fan artists in question feel violated, unappreciated, and misused. I don't blame them for that. I blame you for that.

Quote:


I would suggest posting a valid dislclaimer



(reads your version of "disclaimer" giving all and sundry free permission to bend the artist over and roger them with a steamshovel)

HAHHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA!! In your wet dreams, dude. heheheh.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 8:58 AM

SUCCATASH


"Hint; Fireflyfans.net is not the sole place where Firefly communities exists on the web."

Yeah, I had a Firefly site myself. Some traitors shut it down.

Fan artwork is a great way to promote Firefly. Everyone should keep up the great work.

Do it for Firefly, not yourself. Stop worrying about glory and fame.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:06 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


I anticipated your reply. Sorry you have no concept of living in any other society than the one you have made up. Real society is there though. I would suggest to all vidders that are so sure of themselves and their rights to Joss's work, to post their vid's. Also, please post you name, and your website address. If you are right, as you believe, then you have nothing to fear. (In fact you probably have nothing to fear anyway, since no one will probably ever go to your site.) But, If I am right, as I am now positive that I am, with a lawyer's perspective, then you do have something to fear. I would love for you to post your website's address. Please post your real name as well, if you are not worried. I am willing to bet though, that you will not post anything of the sort. Rather, you will continue to hide and to try to convince people that your side of the plagiarism debate is the one that most (haha) people are on. That is so false that I can't even believe you would try to pass that off. The small group that speaks out here on FFF is in no way representative of the views of the mass populace. Regardless, if you really believe in yourselves, I say once again, show your confidence. Prove it. Post your stuff. Post a link to it. (more importantly, put it where I can see it) See how long it lasts. Obviously you can't give up.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:15 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Well. This has been excruciating.

My thoughts--a lot of this could have been avoided by simply being polite. Whether the original material was hers or not, Nia went to the trouble of putting it together and from the sounds of it, probably poured a lot of herself into the project. Granted, there were avenues she should have taken that would have saved a lot of grief on all sides. Nevertheless, where emotional investments of fans are concerned, it pays to be polite. I bet if Nia had been asked nicely and Succatash explained the need to share Firefly fandom with others, permission would have been given and happily.

Considering the average waistline of fandom in general, it's a sure bet the sensitive types who shop in the larger sizes have been thoroughly alienated from continuning any and all association with Firefly fandom. We'll also be seeing more timid fans from this point on--those willing to watch, but not do. If I'm having serious doubts about posting artwork (and that's anywhere, not just here), I can't be the only one. As evidenced here, creative people are ultra emotional, and emotional people can become easily gun shy.

Unfortunately, this thread is a sign of the beginning of the end for Firefly fandom. At the very least, it will be held up by others as an example of what not to do.

I can feel my heart breaking all over again, and there really isn't that much of it left.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:17 AM

MANDRAGORA


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Quote:

Originally posted by Viv:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.

(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.



I have looked into this kids. I have spoken with a real lawyer, not just a lawyerly type.

The 'lawyerly type' would be me. I am in fact a 'real' lawyer, and have been for many years.

Violation of copyright IS theft. (Just as TragicStory stated - plagiarism and copyright law travel down the road hand in hand.)

Er, I don't know who your 'real' lawyer is, but the definition of theft is:
'A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.'

Note that the 'dishonesty' and 'permanent deprivation' elements are vital. I don't see anyone claiming that they own TPTB's copyright. So, oh dear, there goes the dishonesty element. Nor do I see anyone 'permanently depriving' TPTB of their copyright, which remains with TPTB at all times.

There's a reason why theft is an actual criminal offence and breach of copyright (mostly) is a civil matter. Could this be because they are two completely separate matters in law perhaps?

Unfortunately, (the lawyer assured me) most copyright infringement cases do not end in jail. Instead a hefty fine is all most ever get.

'A hefty fine'? Um, no, most copyright cases turn on damages. The person whose copyright has been breached really isn't likely to be interested in any fine, as that money goes to the state. No, what they want is money paid to them by way of damages. That's why most copyright cases are civil claims/suits only, because it's all about the money.

In order for fan vidders to have the rights they want, they must change at least 40% of all aspects of the material that is copyrighted.

I don't know which law you're quoting. Certainly in my jurisdiction there is no '40% rule'. If US law states that this is the case, well, US law will only apply to people who 'publish' in the US. You see, the Berne Convention states that you have to apply local law when trying to enforce copyright, i.e. you have to enforce the law applying where the alleged copyright holder published their offending article.

Which jurisdiction applies to items 'published' on the net hasn't been determined yet, although it's likely to be the place where the ISP is physically located. So, if TPTB want to come after someone who 'publishes' a Firefly vid in Germany, for example, then they'll have to apply German law, not US, notwithstanding that TPTB are an American corporation.

With respect, I would suggest that your 'real lawyer' friend might have explained these rather tricky issues of international law to you before sending you off to post on a bulletin board on the basis of incomplete information that could be rather misleading.


Madragora

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:29 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:


Sorry you have no concept of living in any other society than the one you have made up



But THIS made-up subculture is the one we're talking about, you towering boob! It sure as heck doesn't exist at the supermarket or the town hall or the battlefield where you keep trying to drag it. Don't you get that? It is where you are RIGHT NOW. It's the one that fandom exists in, and it already has well-established, common-sense guidelines and expressions of courtesy and trust that have been working for a long LONG time. Trial and error (and occasional nuclear explosions) have proven and time again that these ways are the best ways for the majority of the fans to exist amicably with other fans. We've also discovered that it only takes one or two jerks to ruin it for the rest of us and make a whole lot of other people unhappy.

You may count yourself among the jerks.

Quote:

Post your stuff. Post a link to it. (more importantly, put it where I can see it)



I believe the answer you've been given is "no".

And you're wrong if you think the mass populace of FF fandom agrees with your views. You're the one who spoiled it for the rest of them and got the vids and art taken down and are forcing the rest of the vidders to go underground and leave their FF projects unreleased. Enjoy reaping what you've sown.

Heh. And you said you were a fan of FF vids. Does the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot" mean anything to you?




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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:30 AM

MANDRAGORA


Replying to my own post to say sorry for the crap formatting. I've never posted to this board before and wasn't certain how to format it properly, as is self-evident from my post.

I was, of course, responding to Maniacnumberone, not Viv.

I would also add that running off to seek 'a lawyer's' opinion does not mean that the opinion you seek is actually cast in stone. There's a *reason* why we lawyers spend a lot of time arguing matters in court, you know, which is that matters are seldom clear cut. In my experience the best odds you can *ever* offer a client vis a vis their court case are of the order of 70%, simply because no one goes to litigation if matters are really cut and dried.

I would also add that any good lawyer will advise their client that there are times when, no matter how good a case they have in law, they should give it up because maintaining the underlying relationship with the other persons involved is the most important thing.

That is something you Maniacnumberone and Succatash (apologies if I've spelt that wrong) might like to bear in mind. At the end of the day it's all about people and you seem to have abysmally failed in communicating in a courteous manner with other Firefly fans.

Please tell me, what did you hope to gain by pissing off the vidders to the point that they've pulled their vids from the net? And was it worth it? Because so far as I can see the situation you have engendered results in everyone losing.

Mandragora (who can spell her own name really)

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:55 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Interesting how your story changes over time Mandragora. First, you talked with a lawyerly type, now a day later, you are a lawyer. Well done. How long did that take you? What school did you go to? Can I also get my degree in a day? Or rather, if you haven't gotten my sarcasm yet, why are you misrepresenting yourself? You should say up front that you consulted yourself on this matter. Regardless, I do believe you are a lawyer. You see how bitter all this crap has made me? Look, I just dissed on you, and I don't even know you.

As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon. I don't mean putting a note on their website or vid saying that Joss is the original creator either. If they gave adequate cedit to Joss, then they would not be trying to control distribution of those vids. That distribution issue is what started all of this. Myself, and I can only assume the rest of the law-abiding world, want those people to recognize that what they percieve as their original work is actually someone else's, and therefore they have no right to control distrtibution. Is that clear enough? I really couldn't care less if they make a vid. And you know what, I bet (speculation) that Joss wouldn't care either. But, they haven't changed the original work enough to claim what they are claiming. That alone is pissing me off. For example: I may as well chop up Star Wars, set it to some Bob Marley, and post it on my site saying it is my original artwork. Can I then, according to your demented secret society rules control who can download what I put together? Can I? No. I couldn't claim rights to those things, even though I changed around their order. If you are the real lawyer you profess to be, (and I don't doubt that you are) you cannot possibly argue that.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:56 AM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
Unfortunately, this thread is a sign of the beginning of the end for Firefly fandom.



I seriously hope not. We're a family here--at least that's how I look at it. And like all families, there will be disagreements and arguments between members. It's only natural. We disagree, we fight, we learn, we grow. It's un-natural if everything was always "good," because it's not. And having whatever that causes ill will bottled up is never good for a community because it'll fester and grow and eventually sickens a community to the point where it can't be cured, can't be fixed, and the community dies.

FIREFLYFANS.NET has always been about building a community of fans. A place to hangout after we've seen an episode of Firefly. A place where we can discuss how good or bad an episode was. A place where we can share and learn. A place to have fun. And, yes, a even place to argue.

Someone asked me a while back what I'll do with this site after Firefly has been cancelled. And I said I'll keep it running and growing because it's for the fans--the community--it's the least I can do. I still believe that. I hope you do as well.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:03 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:

Yeah, I had a Firefly site myself. Some traitors shut it down.



Wow. Your twisted grasp of events is truly mind-boggling.

You betrayed a fellow Browncoat and fan artist and spit in the face of her wishes. YOU did. She had done nothing to you other than verbally disagree with you. You retaliated by taking her vid creation and hijacking it onto your server.

The way I see it, you play with fire, you get burned. You started shoving people around and dared them to give you the smackdown, then when you got it you cried like a baby and shouted foul.

I bet you never played football. :)

Nia and heck of a lot of her peers who also create in FF saw the rude and downright underhanded thing you did and closed ranks. They pulled their vids and stopped production on others.

I knew they would do that. Anyone else who's been active in fandom more than a week would know, too. More, I agree with their stance and their actions, because it's the one and only way they have of keeping people like you from walking all over them; by refusing - forgive the crude term, ladies - to put out.

Rule #1 in fandom: do not bite the hand that feeds you. This not only includes the supposed "fans" NOT sending hate letters to Joss Whedon and Mutant Enemy, but also not ticking off that small percentage of creative individuals from whom we get our fannish fixes like vids, art and fiction.

If I followed your line of reasoning regarding fan creations, a fellow should be able to smack his wife in the mouth and get some sugar for it. Don't work that way, though. (hoping this isn't news to you)




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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:09 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Haken:
I seriously hope not. We're a family here--at least that's how I look at it. And like all families, there will be disagreements and arguments between members. It's only natural. We disagree, we fight, we learn, we grow. It's un-natural if everything was always "good," because it's not. And having whatever that causes ill will bottled up is never good for a community because it'll fester and grow and eventually sickens a community to the point where it can't be cured, can't be fixed, and the community dies.



Yes, it does, doesn't it? I just wish I hadn't seen it so often--I'd probably be a lot less glass-is-half-empty about it. Conflicts with certain unreasonable types has tempted me to step away from fandom for awhile. Since I'm heading up an art show for a local fan run sci-fi convention for the fifth year in a row, I guess I'm still one of the faithful and probably always will be even when it occasionally feels like self-destructive behavior. FIREFLYFANS.NET is the best fan environment I've been in for awhile, and it's hard to see all the yelling going on with the kids, you know?

Thanks Haken. I needed that.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:20 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:

As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon.



*LAUGHING*

Oh, *I* get it. Now you're not just another fan with a minority view, you've got (drumroll, please) A MANDATE. I seeeeee. You must become the defender of Joss Whedon's rights, because he so obviously needs your help in doing so.

Ya know, you kinda remind me of those rabid baptist guys on the internet picking fights and flaming catholics because "jesus needs me to defend his name!"

Get the fudge over yourself already.

(PS: does anyone else hear MsAllegro's voice in their head right about now?)

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:23 AM

MANDRAGORA


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Interesting how your story changes over time Mandragora. First, you talked with a lawyerly type, now a day later, you are a lawyer. Well done. How long did that take you? What school did you go to? Can I also get my degree in a day? Or rather, if you haven't gotten my sarcasm yet, why are you misrepresenting yourself? You should say up front that you consulted yourself on this matter. Regardless, I do believe you are a lawyer. You see how bitter all this crap has made me? Look, I just dissed on you, and I don't even know you.

As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon. I don't mean putting a note on their website or vid saying that Joss is the original creator either. If they gave adequate cedit to Joss, then they would not be trying to control distribution of those vids. That distribution issue is what started all of this. Myself, and I can only assume the rest of the law-abiding world, want those people to recognize that what they percieve as their original work is actually someone else's, and therefore they have no right to control distrtibution. Is that clear enough? I really couldn't care less if they make a vid. And you know what, I bet (speculation) that Joss wouldn't care either. But, they haven't changed the original work enough to claim what they are claiming. That alone is pissing me off. For example: I may as well chop up Star Wars, set it to some Bob Marley, and post it on my site saying it is my original artwork. Can I then, according to your demented secret society rules control who can download what I put together? Can I? No. I couldn't claim rights to those things, even though I changed around their order. If you are the real lawyer you profess to be, (and I don't doubt that you are) you cannot possibly argue that.


I suggest that you read posts properly before sounding off. I did not claim to have talked to 'a lawyerly type', it was Viv who made that post. I merely stated that the 'lawyer type' she had talked to was me, which does, I think rather render your sarcasm otiose.

As for what you want... Oh dear. What world do you live in? Because it certainly isn't one that I recognise. You know, the real world?

So far as I am aware the vidders do give credit where it's due to the original creator, Joss Whedon, or some variant thereof, in their disclaimer. As for the actual vids themselves, although they are clearly derivative works, the copyright to said derivative works, i.e. the vids themselves rests with the *vidders*.

Those vids are *theirs*. Is that clear enough for you? Those vids do *not* belong to Joss Whedon, or fandom as a whole and they most *certainly* do not belong to you.

Whether those vids breach Joss Whedon's copyright is a question of fact, and each vid will have to be considered on an individual basis including whether the vidder in question has 'changed it enough'. However, this is a point that should be decided by someone who actually knows copyright law, such as a judge, not someone such as yourself who is regurgitating poorly understood points of law.

*If* there is an actual breach of Joss Whedon's copyright then he has the right to insist that the offending vid[s] be taken down, ceased to be 'published', maybe (depending on the circumstances) even be destroyed. What he does *not* have the right to do is to claim ownership of those vids because they do *not belong to him*. They belong to the vidders.

As owners of the vids, then the vidders certainly have the right to control distribution. Whether they can *enforce* that right, given that the vids are derivative works and in the real world - you know, the one that most of us live in - calling attention to oneself and possibly incurring the wrath of TPTB is generally considered *not to be a good thing*, is a different matter.

*That* is why media fandom relies on certain 'rules', which pretty much boil down to:
Ask first for permission to appropriate someone else's work and if permission is denied *do not take it*.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Honestly, a child of 5 could grasp it but you seem to dismally fail to see this oh-so-obvious point.

And now I have to go and prepare for tomorrow morning's court appearance, so I will not be able to continue this *cough* illuminating *cough* debate with you further.

Mandragora

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:28 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Quote:

Originally posted by hooobity:
[BIf I followed your line of reasoning regarding fan creations, a fellow should be able to smack his wife in the mouth and get some sugar for it. Don't work that way, though. (hoping this isn't news to you)



You did not follow my line of reasoning correctly. It is now obvious you are following very little correctly.

Let me explain again, just for you, hooober.
Using your own analogy it may be easier for you to grasp.

"a fellow smacks his wife in the mouth" -translation - vidders appropriate Joss's Firefly episodes and post them without changing them enough.

"they want sugar for it" translation - they want to control distribution rights.

And you are very right.
It doesn't work that way.


And a side note to Mandragora - according to your definition of theft, I could go up to anyone, steal anything they own and it wouldn't be theft if I intended to give it back eventually, say after 50 years. That word "permanently" will get you into a lot of trouble.


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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:44 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Let me explain again, just for you, hooober.



hooobity. And I'd hardly call deliberately misunderstanding me, appropriating my analogy and bending the accepted rules of fandom to make it fit your example as an "explanation". But then, you've been deliberately misunderstanding everyone on this board for days. Heh. That's the first time I've seen obtuseness used as a defense plea.

"I couldn't help it, yer honor. I'm just too durn dumb to get the rules."

Quote:


"a fellow smacks his wife in the mouth" -translation - vidders appropriate Joss's Firefly episodes



Oh... so now you read Joss Whedon's mind and know what he thinks about vidding and fan activities, eh? Why don't you just change your nick to JOSS_WHEDON on the board and start answering his fan mail?

Can I have my lottery numbers now, O Swami, or does your downlink to Whedon's brain expire at midnight?

And the vidders already control distribution rights, and in the most final of ways. How? They stopped distributing. Even you should be able to recognize a dry well when you trip over it.

You know what this is really all about? It's not about Joss Whedon, it's not about vidding or fan works, and it's not about Firefly. It's about a couple of guys who got disgruntled when they found out they couldn't waltz into an already well-established community and make up new rules to suit them. That's all.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:49 AM

KAYTHRYN


Okay, I’m boycotting this thread right here and now!

Who’s with me?!? Come on browncoats!


Down with the evil thread!!!

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:50 AM

BKTHEIRREGULAR


More on the problem with the various arguments later. For now, something to bear in mind.

From an interview with Joss Whedon on about.com (link: http://actionadventure.about.com/cs/weeklystories/a/aa041903.htm )

Q: What should fans do now that they’ll have an extra hour free in their schedule?

A: What should they do with that hour? Write fan fic.



Take that as you will.

Bruce (BK) (the irregular)

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:53 AM

TRAGICSTORY


I know I swore not to chime in again, but I think that if we were to all go beat the ever-loving sh_t our of the fan who gave the VCDs and started this everyone would feel much better.


I didn't hand over the vcd, neither did Maniacone or succutash so I don't think they should be held resposible for the huge panic flight that ensuing.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:56 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Q: What should fans do now that they’ll have an extra hour free in their schedule?

A: What should they do with that hour? Write fan fic.



from Joss's lips to God's ears...oh, you know what I mean.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:58 AM

MANDRAGORA


Maniacnumberone wrote:
Quote:

And a side note to Mandragora - according to your definition of theft, I could go up to anyone, steal anything they own and it wouldn't be theft if I intended to give it back eventually, say after 50 years. That word "permanently" will get you into a lot of trouble.


To which my response (along, with, oh God, I really don't have time for this) is:
I didn't make the law. That's the *legal definition* of theft in the jurisdiction in which I practise.

But - surprise, surprise - lawyers actually did anticipate the 'borrowing' point. The law states that a person is therefore treated as intending to permanently deprive if his intention is to treat the object as his own to dispose of regardless of the other's rights; and a borrowing or lending of it may amount to so treating it if this borrowing or lending is for such a period and in circumstances making it equivalent to an outright taking or disposal.

The case law suggests that this 'borrowing' is usually for a short period of time, even hours or days can be too long, depending on the circumstances. 'Borrowing' something for fifty years would almost certainly amount to theft in pretty much all circumstances.

And a word of friendly advice, I suggest that before you attempt to quibble the law with a lawyer you actually make some attempt to know what you're talking about first.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:00 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Okay, I’m boycotting this thread right here and now! Who’s with me?!? Come on browncoats!



boycotting.
buh-bye y'all--see ya on a different thread.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:01 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


this one's getting too big to load quickly anyhow.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:06 AM

TALRIUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Okay, I’m boycotting this thread right here and now!

Who’s with me?!? Come on browncoats!


Down with the evil thread!!!



I'm with you, in fact; I've... got... an idea. We hijack the tread. Post stuff that has nothing to do with the topic.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:09 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by BKtheirregular:
From an interview with Joss Whedon on about.com (link: http://actionadventure.about.com/cs/weeklystories/a/aa041903.htm )

Q: What should fans do now that they’ll have an extra hour free in their schedule?

A: What should they do with that hour? Write fan fic.



No smack in the mouth? Shocker. Only NOT.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:14 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Quote:

Those vids are *theirs*. Is that clear enough for you? Those vids do *not* belong to Joss Whedon, or fandom as a whole and they most *certainly* do not belong to you.


Well, this is my last word on the subject - I disagree with you. Your above statement is wrong. We can repeat it and repeat it, I am not going to budge.

On a side note, you know what's funny about all of this? Succatash is actually a master video editor. He gets paid to make online video demonstrations.

He has made many short movies and music videos, and he always gets permission to use audio. The video he shoots himself with a High-8 vid camera. He made a very funny movie about a ventriloquist dummy who went to college, and lots of videos for his friends band.

He has made a lot of illegal stuff too, but he just lets those vids get passed around.

Succatash knows better.

...and so with a wave of his hand, Maniac leaves this cursed thread, and joins Kaythryn in the boycott.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:17 AM

KAYTHRYN


Quote:

I'm with you, in fact; I've... got... an idea. We hijack the tread. Post stuff that has nothing to do with the topic.


Love it, love you

Any one have any suggestions for a list of everyday Firefly curses and short phrases? I need some lingo.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:23 AM

TALRIUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Love it, love you



Love you right back.

Quote:

Any one have any suggestions for a list of everyday Firefly curses and short phrases? I need some lingo.


For use on this post?

You know it took like a minute for this post to load. It should be instantanious. Like a second.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:24 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by TragicStory:

I know I swore not to chime in again, but I think that if we were to all go beat the ever-loving sh_t our of the fan who gave the VCDs and started this everyone would feel much better.

I didn't hand over the vcd, neither did Maniacone or succutash so I don't think they should be held resposible for the huge panic flight that ensuing.



(holding up hand)
Umm... point of interest? Just because I like to keep the facts straight. As dumb as that VCD person was, the REAL flight and the taking down of vids and webpages didn't start until maniacnumberone posted Nia's vid without her permission. Granted, he took it down but grudgingly so, and then Succatash put it back up against her wishes with his (apparent) support. The FF vids that won't be released now are a direct result of their actions.

No offense, just clarifying matters.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:26 AM

BKTHEIRREGULAR


Okay, as far as I can tell, this should hopefully address both sides of the argument. No names named, no names called. Just the best logic I can muster. This is my point of view; your mileage may vary...

I suspect a large part of the problem is that this argument is operating on two levels simultaneously, and those levels keep getting mixed up and tangled.

First, there’s the purely legal level, in which anyone who takes copyrighted material and distributes it in any manner without express written permission can be held liable. That’s anyone at all - from the person who creates the vid, to the person who puts it up on a web site, to the person who gives the vid to the copyright holder. A number of individual copyright holders turn a blind eye to this, which is what allows such creative fandom efforts to survive and prosper, but many corporations find it necessary to jealously guard their copyrighted material, and do so to levels even beyond what the law permits sometimes.

On this level, just about EVERYONE here is in the wrong, myself included. Fox could, in theory, hit fireflyfans.net with a Cease and Desist order, which the owners of this site might - MIGHT - be able to successfully fight, but at a cost in resources they probably cannot bear. So this entire site lives under the Sword of Damocles.

Then there’s the other level, the level that most of creative fandom operates on, in whatever genre. The people who put effort into creating music vids, photo manipulations, and fan fiction cannot look to the law to protect them; hence, creative fandom must survive under ... well, let’s just call them “gentlemen’s agreements”, with apologies to the ladies. The purpose of such gentlemen’s agreements is to enable the vidder or photomanipulator or fanfic author (I’ll just use the term “creator” for simplicity’s sake here) to remain under the radar of those entities that jealously guard their copyright, and use drastic means of enforcement. Some fandoms benefit from permissive copyright holders, such as the anime fandoms mentioned above; others, like those based on Fox-owned properties, must be more circumspect.

One solution to the problem might be total anonymity, but that has its own problems: human beings have a tendency to want to be recognized for what they do, and in the past, this has proven to be an acceptable price for the fandom to pay to encourage people to continue their creative efforts. Names become associated with types of work, levels of quality, enabling people to find material to suit their tastes more quickly, and enhance their enjoyment of the fandom.

In the past, when a creator has asked for material to be taken off publicly accessible sites, there have been several reasons, from a desire to withdraw from the fandom, to a creator having run afoul of the copyright holders and finding himself or herself on the business end of court orders, to a perceived need for the creator to go into a sort of “silent running” mode for a time, to allow a tense situation to dissipate. Generally, this has entailed the creator removing works from publicly accessible domains, and requesting that anyone else who has those materials on a publicly accessible site remove them. It’s not a matter of jealousy; it’s a matter of waiting out the hunter, trying to stay as quiet as possible until the danger is past.

It’s also ENTIRELY dependent on the good will of the community in respecting the creator’s wishes. The creator doesn’t have any leverage to force others in the fandom to take the works out of circulation, but is betting on the fandom understanding that.

(Oh, and here’s another wrinkle: I’ll have to look this one up, but if Creator A is hit with a cease-and-desist letter, forced to pull the vids, and Creator A is aware of the existence of copies of those vids on a certain site on the Internet, Creator A may very well be obliged to reveal that location to the authorities. The consequences if Creator A fails to do so: possibly the cease-and-desist letter from the lawyers becomes an official court order, and even in a civil case, violation of a court order is contempt, which can lead to jail time.)

It’s not a matter of secret societies with decoder rings and handshakes; anyone who posts on one of these boards, who hosts material that is potentially subject to legal action, has joined the community. And if a member of said community takes actions which will do harm to the community as a whole - if the gentlemen’s agreements have broken down - then there are two very unpalatable choices: either take action that will cause harm to one or more members of the community in order to protect the many, or do nothing and wait for the copyright holders to perk up their ears, zero in on the community, and lay waste to the fandom.

Signing off,

Bruce (BK) (the irregular)

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:33 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I am not going to budge.



Ain't getting no vids either. Enjoy the silence.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:34 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

You know it took like a minute for this post to load. It should be instantanious. Like a second.


maybe we can kill it through sheer gluttony.

not boycotting anymore (obviously). don't know why i tried.

Quote:

Posted by Sarahetc.
Any one have any suggestions for a list of everyday Firefly curses and short phrases? I need some lingo.



she probably needs it for use in her next shiny new FAN FIC!!

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:38 AM

TALRIUS


Gluttony works. Hey it's one of the seven deadly sins.

i hope she needs it for a fic. Don't want to be contributing to someone's deliquency.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:56 AM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by BKtheirregular:

Then there’s the other level, the level that most of creative fandom operates on, in whatever genre. The people who put effort into creating music vids, photo manipulations, and fan fiction cannot look to the law to protect them; hence, creative fandom must survive under ... well, let’s just call them “gentlemen’s agreements”, with apologies to the ladies.



Not offended. :) Wonderful post, BK. Very reasonable and rational. But here's the rub - what do the creators of fannish works do when they're not dealing with gentlemen?



In a way, I guess you could say that Nia and the other vidders put their trust too easily in the hands of scoundrels. That's as may be, but me and you and everyone else in FF are the ones losing out because of it. At least 3 of my favorite archives are offline today, and I haven't even begun to assess the damage yet. (I'm too afraid to look!) So yeah, that ticks me off. Maniacnumberone and Succatash's stubborn and ignorant refusal to see how their actions have harmed the Firefly fandom is just as irritating, but I've given up trying to convince them that slapping people in the face just because you can is inherently wrong.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:07 PM

SARAHETC


I don't need new curses. I got a dictionary! And a list in a notebook on my desk. Kaythryn needs 'em.

As for fanfic: I got the first 5 pages of a new Wash fic and the chicken scratchings of a new Browncoat Chronicles.

Actually, I would like to know the Chinese for "Hoobity, take your barbies and go home and shut the fox up already. Christ!"

But! Hijacking the thread! Best idea in a long time.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:20 PM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by Sarahetc:
chinese for "Hoobity, take your barbies and go home and shut the fox up already. Christ!"



No barbie dolls here (and no twinkies, either), but I'm fairly sure I could find out how to say "this IS the thread for the hijacked video, so I'm staying! Nyah!" in Mandarin.

When you hijack a plane, you still gotta deal with the passengers.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:42 PM

KAYTHRYN


Boycotting.

That's my response.

And get over it already hooobity. Join the happy people. Seriously, talk about something else with us.

---You know... I used to play with Barbie dolls. I'd paint them all over in blue and red nail polish so they'd look more interesting. Then me and my friend across the street boiled them in this big witch cauldron she had in her back yard.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:56 PM

HOOOBITY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Boycotting.

That's my response.



Well... not to be pedantic but it's not really the definition of boycotting if you're posting in this thread. About *anything*.

Quote:

And get over it already hooobity. Join the happy people.


I stand with my shipmates, sir. The vidders who pulled their works, for which I find it hard to express any happiness. So you'll have to forgive me if I can't go cozying up to the people who went around slapping them yesterday.

Thank you for being civil, (I do sincerely appreciate that) but as far as joining the Other Side, as Mal might say, "It wouldn't be right".


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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:01 PM

SHINY


Haken, I recommend closing this thread. While I appreciate your hands-off moderating style, there has already been too much heat and not enough light in this discussion (other than BK's great post), and it doesn't appear that is going to change.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:15 PM

KAYTHRYN


Quote:

Posted by Hooobity:
I stand with my shipmates, sir. The vidders who pulled their works, for which I find it hard to express any happiness. So you'll have to forgive me if I can't go cozying up to the people who went around slapping them yesterday.


Fine, don't express any happiness, but tone down the unproductive unhappiness please.

And I don't remember slapping anyone yesterday, so you can talk to me. No cozying I promise.

Yeah, I know, my boycotting went down the drain. I'm going with Talrius-- happy thoughts on this thread.

Current conversation: Barbie dolls-
I painted and boiled mine. What kind of mutilation did you guys subject your stereotypical-anorexic-bleached-sex symbols to?

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:29 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
I'm going with Talrius-- happy thoughts on this thread.

Current conversation: Barbie dolls-
I painted and boiled mine. What kind of mutilation did you guys subject your stereotypical-anorexic-bleached-sex symbols to?



Well, I never had barbie dolls myself, but seem to recall setting some of my G.I. Joe "action figures" on fire...

(interesting choice for a "happy" topic, Kathryn )

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 3:38 PM

HAKAI


Quote:

Originally posted by TragicStory:
I


I didn't hand over the vcd, neither did Maniacone or succutash so I don't think they should be held resposible for the huge panic flight that ensuing.

B]



They aren't.
They are being held responsible for their rude, insulting behavior in which they refuse to concede that they might possibly have done something that people consider wrong,and would consider wrong weather or not that person had made the VCD. They procede in such a way that people keep trying to explain the way it works to them because its a lot like watching a socially inept kid try to play with others, in that train wreck sort of way. Its frustrating to people when someone refuses (possibly is incapable) of displaying an accurate knowledge of basic social rules. Usually its assumed they don't know, and people try to educate them, but its seems to me that they are deliberatly not understanding what is going on, which is very nearly the definition of troll, though I don't *think* that is their intention. What everyone really wants is for them to grow up and get a clue so FF fandom can stop getting laughed at by all the other fandoms for haveing such crazy idiots/trolls in it. Youve no clue how many other fandoms this has turned up in as an example of bad taste troll can you belive these nuts? etc. No one in any of them seems to agree with them. I personally am beginning to wonder if they are older enough to drive, because they certainly don't act like it. I'd say more but i'm running out of time.

Regs

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 3:40 PM

HAKAI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Quote:

Posted by Hooobity:


Current conversation: Barbie dolls-
I painted and boiled mine. What kind of mutilation did you guys subject your stereotypical-anorexic-bleached-sex symbols to?




Dodge Barbie!
Its like dodgeball but with barbies intead of balls.

regs

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 3:50 PM

KAYTHRYN


Quote:

Posted by Hakia:
Dodge Barbie!
Its like dodgeball but with barbies intead of balls.



See Barbies arn't just girly toys!
That sounds kind of dangerous... you still have vision in both eyes?

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 3:57 PM

FFWF


I would like to thank Succatash for his apology re: Twinkies. I am sorry that others were not as decent about it and continued hurling insults at you afterward.

I realize that I was not specifically the target of that comment but, I must say that after my initial anger at it, I had to step back and laugh. I hope that the next time someone insults me, they put that much thought and creativity into it.

You have said over and over that you are really more interested in evangelizing the fandom than your are in the egos of vidders.

I think you are correct that many vidders have huge egos. It is possible that you are right that they cannot realistically hope to maintain complete control their work. But, your insistance that you are correct in the face of this much opposition leads me to suspect that you also have an ego. (Now that I know that you also vid, it certainly makes sense to me that you would have one.) ;)

Just a thought - but it seems to me that your ego cares more about being right, than it does about preserving or extending the fandom. Egos are rather troublesome creatures with minds of their own and they often put is in very strange situations.

This isn't the world of Firefly. Unfortunately, we cannot go off and find our own planet when people decide to inflict rules upon us that we don't like. Might I suggest that, even though you disagree with them that you play by established vidder rules when dealing with established vidders. It is much easier to change things when you are inside "the system" than when you are outside.

I hope you get your website up again sometime soon. I, for one, would love to see your vids. If they are as inventive as your insults, they must be wonderful.

Off to watch Smallville. Boy, am I glad I have Tivo.

Oh - and to those who have been objecting to the rehash after rehash I just have to say that this has been better than the OJ Simpson trial. Thank you all.

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