George R.R. Martin calls fanfiction writing 'lazy'. by DeSangro

TALK STORY

George R.R. Martin calls fanfiction writing 'lazy'.

POSTED BY: DESANGRO
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 5, 2004 06:04
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VIEWED: 6839
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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:04 PM

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/

First off, I do respect this guy as an author. He's an excellent writer and he can build an impressively detailed fictional world, not to mention creating some great (and sometimes greatly disturbing) characters. And he does offer some good advice on his FAQ of his official website.

But this one statement of his I found to be... disagreeable. And the sad thing is that I was thinking of writing some Sandor Clegane fic. . .

Quote:
Write every day, even if it is only a page or two. The more you write, the better you'll get. But don't write in my universe, or Tolkien's, or the Marvel universe, or the Star Trek universe, or any other borrowed background. Every writer needs to learn to create his own characters, worlds, and settings. Using someone else's world is the lazy way out. If you don't exercise those "literary muscles," you'll never develop them.

The first two sentences are valid advice. If you want to write, you've got to write, and practice at it. But I do take issue with the 'borrowed background' part.

Let's see: is it more lazy to draw a picture or sculpt a statue of Severus Snape than it is to do a picture or statue of an original character? Was it more lazy of Peter Jackson and his friends to do an adaption of J.R.R. Tolkien's novels than it would be for them to do a completely original fantasy story? Was it more lazy for Shakespeare to have ripped off ideas from older plays and legends and myths than to have come up with completely original ideas, situations, and characters?

Frankly, I don't think that you can look at the whole of the fanfic world and say that the people who write in it are taking the lazy way out. There IS truly lazy fanfic, in which the author doesn't care enough to keep the characters IC, or doesn't take the time to invent OCs who fit seamlessly into the established universe, or don't even bother to spell correctly. THAT is truly lazy writing. But there can be 'lazy' writing-- lifeless prose, flat characters, time-worn cliches-- in published books as well.
I've read bad fanfic, and I've read good fanfic. I have, on occasion, read great fanfic. I just wish that some non-fanfic writers would realize that there is a difference.

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:30 PM

KELLAINA

I agree with you. I have on occasion read fanfic that rivalled or even surpassed the pro fic. Going with Martin's logic means that any 'professional' writer who writes in the Star Trek or Marvel or Star Wars or Buffy universes is 'lazy.' Those authors are also taking established characters and places and many of them do a fantastic job (some not-so-fantastic but that's another thread

)

I don't know much about George R.R. Martin, maybe he feels threatened?

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 5:21 PM

DRE

There's been some talk over the years because a lot of "writers" (and I use the term loosely) who do fanfiction on the internet have been trying to promote and sell themselves off such works, especially the majority of these fic-writers who are common among fantasy/sci-fi genres.

While this is in no way a generalization, it's something I've noticed a lot of authors I've met and listened to talk about; the proliferation of it across the net has led to a degree of authors wondering why they work hard at their craft and then people come along and reap off that craft.

Terry Brooks once posted on his site that if someone wrote a piece involving his world(s), &c., he had no problem with it so long as it was simply a personal piece meant to encourage and develop the craft. But he had a lot of people writing (relatively poor, in some cases) fanfiction that got stapled to his name (people assumed these would be related to, endorsed by, etc, the author(s) involved), and it really can damage an established writer.

On a side note, most writers who write in Star Wars, Buffy, &c, are already published writers, and they get hired (or request) to do a piece for that setting. Most of the time the work is also subject to the studio/publisher's eye first. In the Star Wars novels, for example, the fella who wrote about the rise of the cloned Palpatine wanted the dark jedi clone of Joruus C'Baoth to be a clone of Obi-Wan, but Lucas(Arts or Film, I think) said that wouldn't fit a vision of the story George Lucas had, so he had to rewrite the background of that element.

I'm all for fanfiction as a developmental tool of the craft; I went to school for English and writing. I see some good stuff (sometimes excellent), and I see some bad stuff. I think it's good practice. When I used to be on some writing forums/mail groups, I saw some people who only wrote fanfiction and were appalled when other people would say, "This is good practice, now write -your- story. Something from -your- world." Some people consider themselves serious writers through imitation: that's what I wouldn't like.

I think that's the bulk of Martin's message really - good practice, but don't let it get to your head.

IKIYO.

DRE

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 5:29 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I must defend my roleplaying now. I think it all depends upon what your goal is. If you are writing with George's goal in mind, to have your own world to create in, then great; but if you have a different goal, say enjoying a universe already created, and having fun, it doesn't really seem lazy to me. I write in the Firefly "gunrunners" roleplaying game, and I do it because I love the universe of Firefly. I just really love Firefly. Nothing wrong with indulging in a great verse. I am not after conquering new literary worlds right now. When I am, you might hear about it, or see it on shelves in your favorite store.

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 5:55 PM

SUCCATASH

I want to be a writer!

I love to write! I write all the time!

But I don't write fanfic. Just ficfan.

I like to make up my own stories.

Fanfic is great but GRRM was simply giving advice on how to really make it in the biz.

If your goal is to create a fantasy world and be a famous author, then do it! Get crackin'!

If your goal is to play and express yourself using a tv show you love, then it's not lazy, it's not even the issue.

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 6:03 PM

JEBBYPAL

Well, for those who haven't bothered to visit Martin's site, I think this needs a little qualifier. If you go to his "what I'm reading" page, you'll eventually see this:

Quote:
A life in Comic Fandom.....Soon after, strange little magazines printed in faded purple ink began to show up in my mail box. That was my introduction to the wonderful world of comicdom, then in its infancy. Before long, I was writing for those fanzines myself; turning out prose epics (I couldn't draw, so I couldn't do comic strips) about the White Raider, Manta Ray, Dr. Weird, and Garizan, the Mechanical Warrior. I never met Bill Schelly (we were both high school kids, him in Pittsburgh and me in Bayonne, New Jersey), nor even corresponded with him .. but I certainly knew his name, and we had many acquaintances (and fanzines) in common.

So while he does say that fanfic is "lazy", he doesn't disapprove of it wholy. I think that he is trying to encourage individuals who have a dream or passion of pursuing fiction writing as a career to start working on their own worlds as soon as possible.

Honestly, as a fairly recent fanfic writer and someone who enjoys it immensely, I have to agree. While fanfic writing is a good way to hone one's handle of literary devices (especially dialogue!), it is easy for it to become a crutch. If one becomes to comfortable with established characters, they will put off the day of creating their own characters and their own worlds. Granted, fan books are published in highly commercial fandoms (star trek), but most of their authors are established authors in their own right.

That said, I love fanfic. It has enabled my reading addiction without making me poor or making me lug books back and forth to the library. It also gave me a place to stretch my wings, try it myself, and get feedback. But I don't view it as novel writing persay. And I realize, and I think Martin was trying to point out, that every hour and day I spend writing fanfic is another moment I could have devoted to creating something original.

The Strawberry Monkey who defends tight pants everywhere!

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 6:18 PM

DESANGRO

Quote:
Originally posted by jebbypal:
Well, for those who haven't bothered to visit Martin's site, I think this needs a little qualifier. If you go to his "what I'm reading" page, you'll eventually see this:

Quote:
A life in Comic Fandom.....Soon after, strange little magazines printed in faded purple ink began to show up in my mail box. That was my introduction to the wonderful world of comicdom, then in its infancy. Before long, I was writing for those fanzines myself; turning out prose epics (I couldn't draw, so I couldn't do comic strips) about the White Raider, Manta Ray, Dr. Weird, and Garizan, the Mechanical Warrior. I never met Bill Schelly (we were both high school kids, him in Pittsburgh and me in Bayonne, New Jersey), nor even corresponded with him .. but I certainly knew his name, and we had many acquaintances (and fanzines) in common.

So while he does say that fanfic is "lazy", he doesn't disapprove of it wholy. I think that he is trying to encourage individuals who have a dream or passion of pursuing fiction writing as a career to start working on their own worlds as soon as possible.

Ah... now I feel a little twinge of shame for having jumped on him the way I did over this. . .

Now I see that he's just like us.

True. But I don't think that I have many dreams of writing professional stuff. My strength, I feel, is in sculpting. So writing is just a hobby for me. Fanfic writing has been my dominant form over the past 6 or 7 years, and so I probably should dust off those original ideas, write them up, and post them on Fiction.Press.

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 6:21 PM

JEBBYPAL

By all means go with your strengths. And I was by no means busting on those individuals who pursue fanfic writing as solely a hobby...they are in no way lesser cause gosh knows, I consume enough of it! Just wanted to make sure Martin wasn't branded as "one of those authors" who protest the use of his "worlds" in fanfic writing homages.

Good luck w/ your sculpting, and writing if you choose to dust off those ideas.

The Strawberry Monkey who defends tight pants everywhere!

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:36 PM

WINTERFELL

I cannot recall if he actually said it himself, but I know it is very much frowned upon to write GRRM fanfic in the GRRM community. none of the boards I go to which deal with his work even allow fan fic posting, which I personally agree with. Sometimes, when you take that much time and effort to create your own pretty much original ideas and characters, it sucks to have someone else come in and start using them for their own stories.

I know when I spoke to him about my band, he only stated as long as I wasn't breaking copyright law, he supported me 100%. This would mean, I can write about characters in a book, whether it be tolkien or GRRM, or whoever, I can write about the events in a book.. as long as I do not 1) claim that these are my own ideas. and 2) do not write new and original stories/lyrics/whatever containing these characters. Seems fair to me. If you want to see an author go crazy on his fans for writing fan fic, check out Terry Goodkind. A few years ago after taking some criticism for some style changes in his 5th book, he went a little nuts. Now his website is filled with philosophical, political, and egotistical ranting. The interviews he does would be laughable if it wasn't so sad that this guy used to be able to write terrifically. But yeah, Terry will actually sue you if you write fanfic of his characters.

I often wonder if some of the great fan fic authors out there would just change the names and tweak the personalities of their characters and settings just a bit, if we wouldn't have alot more quality stories/books/writers out there.

~~Robb of Winterfell~~
~ http://winterfell.org ~
High Fantasy Heavy Metal

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Monday, October 4, 2004 2:03 PM

CORNCOBB

As a writer of fanfic and original stories I can say that I sort of see this guys point about writing original work being better practice but I've found that with my Buffy and Angel fanfic the characters have really come alive for me. I'm not just copying them from Joss' work exactly as he conceived them, I've been stearing them in new directions and more often than not it's like the characters are deciding for themselves what happens next. sounds weird but it's true. I feel that writing these stories has given me valuable experience in writing stories about fully realistic characters and next time I write an original piece of fiction my own characters will probably be more real because of that experience. So, in that way, fanfic writing is good practice, but eventually, if you aspire to be a professional writer, its probably a good idea to put that practice to use and try creating your own characters

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Monday, October 4, 2004 2:20 PM

CAPNRAHN

As a writer and 'GunRunner' {Hiyo Maniac!} myself, I'll have to side with Mr. RR Martin.

It is lazy - OK hear me out. The roughest stuff to do in creating a universe is the backstory and how everything interlinks.

Some authors make the barest framework and let the story/characters et al evolve more organically.

Other authors (Herbert comes to mind} plot and plan the structure of their 'Verse.

Martin is saying to find your true talent/enjoyment, you have to create this type of framework - to follow through with the whole experence of crafting a full 'Verse - instead of only writing situations and characters that you hang on anothers 'Verse backstorys framework.

It is not ment as a slam - just a prod to get folks to try doing something new and fresh. Remember, blending mythologys is how Lucas and Tolkean {ex sp} got SO huge.

Heh, that must be why I love Farscape - it dares to go boldly where angels fear to nuke.

"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

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Monday, October 4, 2004 2:40 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Quote:
Originally posted by CapnRahn:
As Martin is saying to find your true talent/enjoyment, you have to create this type of framework - to follow through with the whole experence of crafting a full 'Verse - instead of only writing situations and characters that you hang on anothers 'Verse backstorys framework.

It is not ment as a slam - just a prod to get folks to try doing something new and fresh. Remember, blending mythologys is how Lucas and Tolkean {ex sp} got SO huge.

It's a matter of opinion really. Many people can and do find their "true enjoyment" in different ways. Unfortunately, I haven't read GRRM's entire thoughts on this matter, but if you're saying that he believes "that" about everyone's creative writing, he has diminished himself. I hope you're not saying that.

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Monday, October 4, 2004 2:49 PM

SHINYLETO

I guess I'd consider myself a writer. I'm not published, but I've got just a tiny bit of recognition online. I've never written a fanfic and I've read next to none, so I'll be the first to admit that I'm in no position to criticize.

However, I think what we have here is a matter of differing intentions. Seems to me that there are people who write fanfiction because they love the universe so much, and they want to further explore it. Whether or not they do a good job is another matter, but I know that whenever I see something really exceptional (A movie, a story, a work of art) I always get a powerful urge to create 'my own version'. This doesn't neccessarily mean I want to copy, rip-off, or even create something within the same universe as that work; it simply means that I have identified with some aspect of the work and wish to interpret it in my own way. I generally find that, the closer I imitate someone else's work, the less I am interested.

This is obviously not the case for the numerous people who write fanfics. They connect with a universe they respect and enjoy through taking in the cannon work and producing new stories through it.

The problem that Mr. Martin is identifying is not fanfic as a whole, it's people who aspire to become published writers using the worlds they like as a crutch. Therein lies the difference. A person who writes fanfic for the sake of writing fanfic is not 'lazy', but a person who writes fanfic and expects it to be recognized on the same level as original work is, at the very least, handicapping themselves. I thoroughly agree that a truly good writer creates his or her own worlds. At the same time, I am by no means saying that no one should be allowed to be influenced by anyone else's work; this is the basis of modern fiction: combining various elements in new and exciting ways.

That's my two cents. Take it and spend it as you will.

http://blackbirdcomic.keenspace.com/

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Monday, October 4, 2004 3:29 PM

CHEAPJOE

Well, Having spoken with Mr. Martin via email on this very subject I fell that I can speak with some authority here. I wanted to start a site for folks to continue writing using the Wild Cards universe. At the time no new books had been out in years and I thought that it would be nice to see some of those characters live and breath again. After a short email telling him what I was wanting to do, I received a polite but sharply worded email back saying that this would be violating copy write laws and he would have to ask me not to continue with my plans. I love his stories (Wild Cards and the Fire and Ice books) But as to this subject....... Wasnt Wild Cards created as a shared universe with different writers writing short stories for their roll playing games? They each created a small part of the world, and shared their creations and made a greater whole. Well, thats my opinion...I may be wrong :-)

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Tuesday, October 5, 2004 6:04 AM

NYNAEVE

Speaking of the Fire & Ice books, we're still waiting (albeit somewhat impatiently) for the next book. When I met him at a scifi con in January 2003, I was assured that it would be out in the next year.....

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