TALK STORY

A list of Foreshadows

POSTED BY: RALLEM
UPDATED: Monday, September 29, 2014 18:59
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Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:07 AM

RALLEM


Is there a list of all of the foreshadowing in Firefly? I know in the end of Shindig Mal says "It’s good to have cargo. Makes us a target for every other scavenger out there of course, but sometimes that’s fun too." I recognize others but was wondering if there was a list with them all.



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Sunday, March 1, 2009 10:40 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Oooooh. We should make one. Is this the right forum? Or in Episodes?

Mal in Pilot: What'll happen when they offer you enough money?

Of course, everything that River says.
Are we talking foreshadowing in the same episode, or future episodes? Cause Out of Gas is packed full of them.

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 10:57 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Foreshadow across episodes.
1. Pilot, Mal asks Jayne what will happen when Alliance offers enough money for the Tams.
Ariel is a later episode.

2. Pilot, Jayne complains that, absent his potential torture session, he won't be getting an EAR he had hoped for.
War Stories is a later episode - or is this just coincidence?


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Monday, May 4, 2009 12:45 PM

CAUSAL


Mal: Why didn't you turn on me, Jayne?

Jayne: Money wasn't good enough.

Mal: What happens when it is?

Jayne: Well, that'll be an interesting day.



This one supports my theory that Jayne would eventually have turned on the crew. Also under foreshadowing in that category: of all the crew members, Jayne is the only one who consistently wears hats. Other than for disguises, only one other crew member *ever* wears a hat, and that's Wash, in the pilot.

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Monday, May 4, 2009 1:33 PM

BYTEMITE


Is that significant in the changing of the hats?

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Monday, May 4, 2009 1:43 PM

CAUSAL


In one of the DVD commentaries (can't remember which) Joss says that in Firefly, only bad guys where hats. As for example, bad guys in hats: Patience, Badger, the feds on the Dortmunder. And, oddly, Jayne is constantly in hats: HoG, TM, Train Job, Safe. I'm telling you: eventually, Jayne would have turned (my guess: season two finale cliffhanger).

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Monday, May 4, 2009 1:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Ah. I actually remember that, but I wasn't sure if that's what you were getting at. I wonder why Joss thinks hat = bad guy? Is it just a running gag for this series?

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Monday, May 4, 2009 1:49 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ah. I actually remember that, but I wasn't sure if that's what you were getting at. I wonder why Joss thinks hat = bad guy? Is it just a running gag for this series?



It's visual language. It's cinematic shorthand for "beware." Watch enough Firefly and see if the folk in hats don't start looking ominous, Jayne included. In Jayne's case, it just looks damned odd, as, for example, as the crew are walking toward the "frozen dinner pack" at the beginning of HoG.

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Monday, May 4, 2009 3:17 PM

RALLEM


We'll probably never know, but at the end of Ariel, Mal says to Jayne, the next time he stabs him in the back he better have the courage to do it to his face, and I suspect that would have been a foreshadowing, much like when Jayne told Mal that would be an interesting day.



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Monday, May 4, 2009 3:23 PM

CELLARDOOR


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
In one of the DVD commentaries (can't remember which) Joss says that in Firefly, only bad guys where hats. As for example, bad guys in hats: Patience, Badger, the feds on the Dortmunder. And, oddly, Jayne is constantly in hats: HoG, TM, Train Job, Safe. I'm telling you: eventually, Jayne would have turned (my guess: season two finale cliffhanger).



Yeah, that's what I had in mind too. I was just thinking about Jayne wearing hats the other day, randomly (and not just the cunning one). Plus, 'sides the obvious backhanded compliment from Wash "A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything," the quip could have easily turned into a foreshadow too.

But I forgot--we're talking about what is, not what might have been!

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Monday, May 4, 2009 8:31 PM

ANOTHERSKY


This one's physical, no lines:

*SERENITY SPOILER ALERT*

Mal decks Simon in the pilot over the River situation.

The first thing Simon does when they return from the opening job in the movie is deck Mal--over the River situation.

I laughed. Rather, in reverse order, seing the series after Serenity. Comeuppance comes.

Does anyone KNOW how many times Joss has visually mirrored Simon/Mal(for instance the opening sequence of the Movie)...I'm starting to think about it and it's interesting.


Second, maybe, sort of:

"Copper for a kiss."

"I don't kiss 'em on the lips."

The hats observation is very, very nice.

I'd like to state I believe River's clothes work in similar fashion, for behavior actually. It did mostly hold but I have yet to dig it out of my subconscious.


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Monday, May 4, 2009 8:45 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


re: hats.

I saw a reference somewhere here just lately that the Jayne hat was part of a running gag-- Joss and the costume designer made a point of putting Jayne in *U*G*L*Y* headgear as a sight gag-- the Snoopy hat in the Train Job, and the hat and goggles in Jaynestown come to mind.

So maybe it's not a symbol, just a running joke.

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Monday, May 4, 2009 9:19 PM

THEREALME


In both the pilot and Train Job Kaylee mentions that they need a spare compression coil or else they'll be adrift... which breaks in Out of Gas.

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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 6:06 AM

RALLEM


Another foreshadow is at the end of Shindig when Mal is speaking to Inara on the gantry and he says to her “It's good to have cargo. Makes us a target for every other scavenger out there, though, but sometimes that's fun too.” Of course we only have to wait until the next episode for that foreshadowing to come true.



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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 12:41 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
re: hats.

I saw a reference somewhere here just lately that the Jayne hat was part of a running gag-- Joss and the costume designer made a point of putting Jayne in *U*G*L*Y* headgear as a sight gag-- the Snoopy hat in the Train Job, and the hat and goggles in Jaynestown come to mind.

So maybe it's not a symbol, just a running joke.



That would be plausible if Joss hadn't established hats as visual shorthand for "bad guy." Hell, in the pilot, Mal and Zoe are in a combat zone and not even wearing helmets, for frak's sake!

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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 2:07 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
re: hats.

I saw a reference somewhere here just lately that the Jayne hat was part of a running gag-- Joss and the costume designer made a point of putting Jayne in *U*G*L*Y* headgear as a sight gag-- the Snoopy hat in the Train Job, and the hat and goggles in Jaynestown come to mind.

So maybe it's not a symbol, just a running joke.



That would be plausible if Joss hadn't established hats as visual shorthand for "bad guy." Hell, in the pilot, Mal and Zoe are in a combat zone and not even wearing helmets, for frak's sake!

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The only problems I have with this visual shorthand theory is that some of the good guys like the man at the post office in "The Message" wore hats and lots of the bad guys did not.



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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 2:25 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:That would be plausible if Joss hadn't established hats as visual shorthand for "bad guy." Hell, in the pilot, Mal and Zoe are in a combat zone and not even wearing helmets, for frak's sake!



The only problems I have with this visual shorthand theory is that some of the good guys like the man at the post office in "The Message" wore hats and lots of the bad guys did not.



I don't think that Joss meant, "In every single instance, anyone wearing a hat, ever, is a bad guy, and anyone not wearing a hat, ever, is a good guy." But he did say, "Only bad guys wear hats in Firefly," or words to that effect. And Jayne was mighty fond of the hats. Of course, this flies in the face of everybody's precious misperceptions as to Jayne's character, but there you are.

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Wednesday, May 6, 2009 3:45 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Perhaps everyone is forgetting Mal's words to Tracey during the Battle of Du Khang:

"Everyone dies Tracey. Someones carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it"

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Wednesday, May 6, 2009 4:00 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Perhaps everyone is forgetting Mal's words to Tracey during the Battle of Du Khang:

"Everyone dies Tracey. Someones carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it"



Ooh, good one!

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Wednesday, May 6, 2009 4:05 AM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Perhaps everyone is forgetting Mal's words to Tracey during the Battle of Du Khang:

"Everyone dies Tracey. Someones carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it"



Is it a foreshadow if it is foretold in the same episode as the actual event foretold or is it just a set up?



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Wednesday, May 6, 2009 4:22 AM

RALLEM


I am thinking there is a foreshadow in this dialogue somewhere whether it had been fulfilled or not but I am having a hard time deciphering it, because River is talking about being attacked by dinosaurs sent on them by the independent squad.
Quote:


YOUNG RIVER
(peeping up from behind couch)
We're in trouble.
(beat)
We got cut off!
YOUNG SIMON
Cut off from what?
YOUNG RIVER
Our platoon, Simon. We got outflanked
by the independent squad, and we're never
gonna make it back to our platoon.
(beat)
We need to resort to cannibalism.
YOUNG SIMON
That was fast. Don't we have rations
or anything?
YOUNG RIVER
They got lost. We're gonna have to eat
the men.





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Thursday, May 7, 2009 2:34 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
Is it a foreshadow if it is foretold in the same episode as the actual event foretold or is it just a set up?

A former HS english teacher of mine would say yes. Foreshadowing devices can occur even right up to the moment before the foreshadowing target.

There was also a term I learned once but have since forgotten that refers to past-foreshadowing. The intent is to foreshadow events to a viewer that have chronologically "already happened" but the viewer is yet unaware of them. Example: In the orginal Terminator film, Reese relates that John Connor once gave him a picture of sarah that had been taken sometime before the war. Of the photo Reese says: "You looked so sad and beautiful in the picture, I would often look at it and wonder who or what you were thinking about" and then at the tail end of the film Sarah is speaking into her tape recorder to her future son and says of Reese "Our time was short, but for what we had, we loved a lifetime" At that moment a mexician boy snaps the very important picture. Reese's question of "What she was thinking about" was a reverse-foreshadow of their love because unbeknownst to Reese, at the moment the picture was taken she was thinking about him. To layer it further, because she was speaking into a tape recorder to her future son, John would later have heard her statement about Reese followed by Sarah's reaction to the mexican boy. John alone knows the picture to be an expression of love across time and therefore gives it to Reese, his own father, without explaining why. John Connor's story is worthy of a Greek tragedy.

I write that because the statements of Book and Inara in Objects in Space serve the same purpose. We just don't get to know what they were about. Both events were secrets they hide from others and in the commentary Joss states that some of the statements were to be about "things we do not yet understand". Thus reverse-foreshadowing. I have my own strong opinions as to what their statements meant. There is an Inara's Secret thread active right now relating how "I'm a Big Girl, just tell me" relates that previous to coming to Serenity she had learned something very bad from a doctor on Sihnon. Book's statement "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not, so where does that put you?" is not further evidenced anywhere in the show, but I think demontrate something terrible he did as an operative during the Unification War.

Oh and my comments regarding the orginal Terminator film are in no way meant to say I think the later works were worth 2 cents.


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Thursday, May 14, 2009 5:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I think Crow's speil was foreshadow for War Stories. Sure, Niska told a tale and implied threats, but maybe he really just didn't like his nephew.
But when Crow goes through that whole explanation, the audience should know there will be consequences.
One would have to lose their suspencsion of disbelief to think this is Tv land where no repercussions would occur.
While maintaining suspension of disbelief, one would have to assume after Crow's speech that Niska would return to haunt the BDH.

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Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:10 PM

TRAINBANDIT


"It's visual language. It's cinematic shorthand for "beware."

Except the hat his mom sent him. That one was goofy, warm, and fluffy. Makes me think that maybe Jayne's mother would have made an appearance had the series gone on. She would either be as bad as he is, or long suffering about him, I think. Maybe he could even have had brothers! Imagine Wash or Simon saying "There's MORE of him?!"

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Friday, May 15, 2009 4:09 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by TrainBandit:
"It's visual language. It's cinematic shorthand for "beware."

Except the hat his mom sent him. That one was goofy, warm, and fluffy. Makes me think that maybe Jayne's mother would have made an appearance had the series gone on. She would either be as bad as he is, or long suffering about him, I think. Maybe he could even have had brothers! Imagine Wash or Simon saying "There's MORE of him?!"



This is exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to our misperceptions. Jayne's funny. He's goofy. He makes us laugh, and sometimes he comes through and saves everyone. But let's not forget: he tried to betray the captain. My point was not to say, "Gee, some hats are scary and some aren't." My point is that according to Joss, only bad guys wear hats--and Jayne loves his hats. Had Firefly gotten the 5-6 seasons it deserved, I guarantee Jayne would have turned on the crew with some finality. Tell me that doesn't seem like something Joss would do: set up a goofy, funny, semi-lovable character and then have that character turn out to be a betrayer.

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Friday, May 15, 2009 8:15 AM

TRAINBANDIT


I agree that Jayne may have betrayed the crew at some point. The problem there is that the show would have lost a really strong character. Personally, I think it would be just as exciting to see Jayne change over time - through a series of close calls,or some attempted betrayals that somehow turned on him - after which he'd appreciate his "space family" more. He did show a weak sense of altruism more than once - "check" "check", and that stupid/sweet speech at the Mudder's town, and begging Mal to lie about why he died after Ariel - which might have grown through experience - in other words, Jayne could have grown up. One of the things I love about the series/film is that it's not only bullets and space chases (and some really cool ones at that, don't get me wrong!), but it's also sbout nine people, living in close quarters, going through all that messy human stuff. Pity we'll never know...

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Friday, May 15, 2009 9:19 AM

RALLEM


There is no doubt Jayne is a complex character, and while at one time I was sure he would have betrayed Mal one more time to his face, but now I am not so sure. Why would Joss give Jayne such a complex character only to have him leave the show through betrayal? Would he go through all that work of making Jayne a complex person just to be a smoke screen for his real intent?



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Thursday, September 25, 2014 7:51 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Was "never kiss 'em on the lips" foreshadowing for that maneuvering in Heart of Gold?

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Friday, September 26, 2014 7:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I don't like the idea that Jayne would have turned on Mal again. From the series, I like to think that Mal's airlock scare of Jayne was enough to put some sense in the guy. " Don't tell 'em what I did " . Seemed to me a selfless act on his part, at least to some degree. He wanted them to think well of him, in the end.

Of course, then he tries to haul River away , AGAIN, in the BDM, after all that. Might be he was drunk, and a bit sore from her whoopin' his ass in the Maiden's Head, but who knows. I'd like to think that was more of a plot twist device, used by Joss to move the story along, and less an insight into Jayne, the man-ape gone wrong thing.

But this is Joss we're talking about , so I think that says it all.


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Friday, September 26, 2014 1:11 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Of course, then he tries to haul River away , AGAIN, in the BDM, after all that. Might be he was drunk, and a bit sore from her whoopin' his ass in the Maiden's Head, but who knows.

I know. Joss wrote Jayne's motivation in the 190 page Serenity script. Jayne acts like a poorly trained attack dog that gets over-excited and bites the wrong people. He needs constant supervision by a good handler:

From the script page 122 of 190 -- Kaylee SCREAMS.

MAL “Ram him!”

Wash hits full power, the ship jolts forward, burns toward the warship, it turns, guns blazing -- and Wash banks like a racer, SLAMS the side of the ship into the warbird.
Everybody goes flying.
The warbird's wing is crumpled and sparking, but it's still capable, still firing in a stuttering arc.

MAL (continuing) “Again.”

INT. DINING ROOM/STORAGE LOCKER - CONTINUING
Jayne comes in, gun drawn, and pulls open the storage locker door.

JAYNE “Hell with this. Let's just give em' what they want --”

The door swings open. The cell is empty.
JAYNE (continuing) “Oh bad.”

He turns and River knocks his gun aside -- he fires once as she jabs his throat and throws him over the kitchen table. More gunshots are heard.

MAL "Zoe --"
She takes off to check it out.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, September 29, 2014 6:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Pilot, paraphrasing:
Mal - Can I get a reward, for helping turn over Simon?
Fed - You think I'm a backbirth, you are just as culpable!
Mal - Well, that has an effect on the landscape.

Mal now will assist Simon, be at odds with Fed.


Our Mrs. Reynolds, at the end, Mal and Saffron. She mentions or describes something like "when we meet again" or similar.

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