TALK STORY

Windows Linux or Mac?

POSTED BY: HAZE
UPDATED: Friday, April 7, 2006 20:42
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 12917
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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:00 AM

SNEAKER98


Well liminalosity, then you're using a Mac for the exact reasons it's intended! All the best :)

Quote:

Originally posted by derangedmilk:
I loves me my Mac!!! Never'd do windows.

While I hear people who have Macs talking about how they love them all the time, and people who use windows saying they hate macs all the time, I was just curious if any of you have ever heard a windows user talk about how they had switched over from mac and absolutely love it?


Sure, in fact my brother is one of them. Since most folks actually started out on a PC due to Apple's extremely small userbase prior to OS9, those on a Mac (and loving it) tend to be former PC users.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:50 AM

HAZE


Quote:

Originally posted by Ruxton:
HAZE,

Am currently working with GIMP, after an entire day lost with Adobe buttheads. One so-called tech who turned out to be a salesman gave me wrong info on a trial version of Photoshop Elements (nearly 4 hours of download on DSL), which caused me to reinstall it, which voided the trial. I could therefore not even try it after all that time. When I asked another Adobe salesperson about it, I was told it's Adobe policy to NOT LET USERS KNOW that if they install, then uninstall and reinstall trial softwear it WON'T WORK. That attitude SUCKS. Earlier that day I did get one Adobe saleswoman who really knew her stuff, but after two hours we still could not make it work...unless I bought it.

So I went for the GIMP. It appears to be a very powerful program, and will do everything I need it to do. So thanks, Haze, for the tip.


STDOUBT, Very clever trilogies.



Glad I could help.


--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:57 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Quote:

Originally posted by derangedmilk:
That was....entertaining to say the least.

I loves me my Mac!!! Never'd do windows.

While I hear people who have Macs talking about how they love them all the time, and people who use windows saying they hate macs all the time, I was just curious if any of you have ever heard a windows user talk about how they had switched over from mac and absolutely love it?
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."


Well, I'm one of those people. Sort of. Raised on Windows, Linux by choice, but using Windows because Linux doesn't work that well with my laptop. My experiences with Mac OS X have been nothing short of spectacular. I don't have most of the same frustrations I do with Windows, and Macs haven't really made anything inconvenient for me (don't much care for PC gaming). It just works, and at the same time I get the ability to tool around with a command-line similar to what I use in Linux, compile open-source software, program, etc. It's really the best experience I've ever had in computing, and I'm on pins and needles waiting for my MacBook Pro to arrive (should hopefully arrive tomorrow).

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:39 PM

SNEAKER98


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20060306/bs_nf/41948

Beware, OSX users. You were safe in a small market because the hacker response to OSX was "I don't care?". Apple hasn't had to deal with the widescale bombardment that windows has; we'll see how it does in comparison now that folks seem to think it's now the better option.

We live in interesting times! :)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Friday, March 17, 2006 12:12 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20060306/bs_nf/41948

Beware, OSX users. You were safe in a small market because the hacker response to OSX was "I don't care?". Apple hasn't had to deal with the widescale bombardment that windows has; we'll see how it does in comparison now that folks seem to think it's now the better option.

We live in interesting times! :)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds


That contest was pretty much a farce. They gave all the hackers local SSH access to the machine. Hackers trying to get at your Mac from the outside won't have this level of access, unless you're an idiot and give them your username and password, in which case you're gorram moron and deserve to get hacked.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 12:52 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Liminalosity:
Hey Sneaker... I do know a Mac isn't immune to fragmentation, they just don't much.


There's plenty of advantages to macs over PCs (less now their moving to Intels CISC...), this isn't one of them. Fragmentation is a property of the file management scheme and data through-put. The more you write to the disc the more fragmentation you're going to get.

Most UNIX (which is the basis for OSX) filesystems handle it better than Windows FAT or FAT32, since they tend to have better fitting algorithms, but NTFS is much better than FAT and there's not much in it.

However Windows may (not really looked at the statistics) write to the disk more often due to it's Virtual Memory and Paging schemes. Windows does seem to like writing to the disk.

Oh and I have Photoshop CS2 on my Windows box too ...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 8:38 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Intel

I guess busses and progress wait for no man, but this move to Intel may have some affect on the advantages of Mac.
Quote:

Oh and I have Photoshop CS2 on my Windows box too ...
I figured you have the CStoy, you have shiny and flashy to show for it. Problems-wise in general, I'm happy. My experience with PC's has been significantly less stellar, and I don't see where that gets better... I'm thinking for example about how many times I've watched the random go all mr. fixit with you and Rel and N0S and a few others giving advice to sort a problem. I just don't have the interest in learning that much about how to fix a PC myself, and paying sucks, and waiting sucks, and pestering friends to help sucks. I'd rather pester my friends to go out for a beer.... and talk about something more fun than how to fix an 8-trak computer.


Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 8:45 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Liminalosity:
I guess busses and progress wait for no man, but this move to Intel may have some affect on the advantages of Mac.


Getting rid of a big chunk of them for one...

Also, since I believe MS, or at least Billy boy, owns the majority share of Apple I can see the possibillity of a Windows for Mac now that the retooling shouldn't be too extreme...

Be afraid, be very afraid.

In Windows no one can hear you Ctrl-Alt-Del...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 8:55 AM

HAZE


I’m quite looking forward to the arrival of my Ubuntu Cds. I’ve been reading a lot about it and if I where to go with Linux it seems like the distro for me.

And even if I don’t I will fell a lot better knowing a have another OS sitting on my shelf ready to go if anything happens.

The opensource movement is a very interesting thing.


--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

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Friday, March 17, 2006 9:20 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen: Also, since I believe MS, or at least Billy boy, owns the majority share of Apple I can see the possibillity of a Windows for Mac now that the retooling shouldn't be too extreme...

Windows for Mac! The The Borg-ification of Mac. I can hear the buzz saws now. Oh, Cit, I am wailing with the horror of that idea. yuck. Yeah, this Intel deal makes me nervous, I am the prowd owner of my very own shiny silver mylar hat of deep suspicion of those who seek to wield enormous power, and Billy Boy is pretty high on that list.
Quote:

In Windows no one can hear you Ctrl-Alt-Del...
ROFLMbuttO Ok, this one will make my day, thank you very much

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 9:20 AM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20060306/bs_nf/41948

Beware, OSX users. You were safe in a small market because the hacker response to OSX was "I don't care?". Apple hasn't had to deal with the widescale bombardment that windows has; we'll see how it does in comparison now that folks seem to think it's now the better option.

We live in interesting times! :)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds


That contest was pretty much a farce. They gave all the hackers local SSH access to the machine. Hackers trying to get at your Mac from the outside won't have this level of access, unless you're an idiot and give them your username and password, in which case you're gorram moron and deserve to get hacked.


Doesn't look like it to me. Can you link me to an explanation?

A few interesting things came out of that article, regardless of wether it was a farce or not. For instance, the browser was set by default to run compressed files automatically? Sounds like a lesson Microsoft learned, but Apple hasn't.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1932659,00.asp
Another very interesting article. Mac had more software flaws than Windows in 2005, albeit windows had 5 or 10 more critical flaws than Mac.

Remember, folks. Pretty != Flawless and Secure. The OSX has yet to be properly tested in the real world.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Friday, March 17, 2006 9:41 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
Quote:

Doesn't look like it to me. Can you link me to an explanation?



Certainly:

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/06/1446207

The Mac will see its share of bugs in the next couple years, as it gains market share. But it has a LONG way to go before it approaches Windows territory. I know how to protect a computer, so I'm not all that worried.

Now, if only my blasted MacBook would arrive! It's been delayed at least another week.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 9:44 AM

SNEAKER98


You may; but does Apple? ;)

They really, really don't have a lot of experience in a widescale OS market. If the ipod's were hooked up to a wireless all the time, then yeah. But they're not, and thus aren't attackable on that scale.

OSX will be Apple's proving ground. And it's already starting out badly.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Friday, March 17, 2006 11:17 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Grew up using dos and later moving onto windows only after much kicking and screaming; never was I comfortable with that.

After a bit, I found Linux and was happy but still not totally comfortable.

Then came OpenBSD. HOME!!!

Also, since I got my Mac mini, I've been using OSX on and off. Find it pretty good. MUCH better than windows ever was/will be (IMO that is).

At any rate, I'm sticking with Apple from now on. Even though they're switching to Intel (I feel gutted ).

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Friday, March 17, 2006 12:21 PM

SIMONWHO


You forgot one:

Windows: Star Trek
Linux: Doctor Who
Mac: Firefly

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Friday, March 17, 2006 1:34 PM

SILVERSAMURAI


Mac user here. No way would I return to windows full time.
I was born and raised on windows, but man, I got so sick of fixing things all the time.

I love my 20" iMac.

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Friday, March 17, 2006 9:13 PM

RETROVERTIGO


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
You may; but does Apple? ;)

They really, really don't have a lot of experience in a widescale OS market. If the ipod's were hooked up to a wireless all the time, then yeah. But they're not, and thus aren't attackable on that scale.

OSX will be Apple's proving ground. And it's already starting out badly.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds


They may not have been as concerned, but that recent bug in Safari really seemed to have lit a fire under their asses. It's unlikely that they'll continue with that same level of complacency given their expected rise in market share.

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:38 AM

SNEAKER98


I feel it might be prudent to clarify where exactly I stand with regards to operating systems.

It might suprise you to know that I consider Windows to be the lesser of three evils. While I do know all the "tricks" that keep me safe (basic ones such as not to open silly emails, and not so basic ones such as registry scanning and msconfig), I'm aware that that's not good enough for the general public.

I have, however, discovered an excellent OS that works well for me: Solaris, from Sun Microsystems. Though I haven't had the time to fully explore a *nix environment due to work and classes, I'm absolutely loving it. It's currently on a dual boot on my laptop.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:46 AM

CITIZEN


Well out of interest I'm currently trying out Ubuntu. I'm currently replying to this thread while running it (just the Live CD, so it's a bit slow, I'll try the full install at some point). The graphics and text look good and the usabillity is better than other versions (like Red Hat).

One day I'm really going to try and get that OS I keep saying I'm going to write running...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:00 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Solaris isn't just any *NIX. It used to be UNIX. It's a proprietary branch of the old AT&T SysV version of UNIX. Never ran it on my personal machine, but the computer science dept where I went to college ran a SunOS (Solaris without the GUI) server I used to SSH into to do homework for my C programming class.

As far as Windows being the lesser of three evils, I don't get the logic. If all you care about is user-friendliness, then I get it. I've never experienced problems moving/deleting files in Linux or Mac because the OS still thinks the file's in use. Hell, the simple fact that the number one solution to most problems is to reboot the computer is proof positive that Windows is completely inadequate when it comes to resource management.

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:03 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Well out of interest I'm currently trying out Ubuntu. I'm currently replying to this thread while running it (just the Live CD, so it's a bit slow, I'll try the full install at some point). The graphics and text look good and the usabillity is better than other versions (like Red Hat).

One day I'm really going to try and get that OS I keep saying I'm going to write running...


Ubuntu is pretty solid, from what I've heard. It's based off of Debian, which is as solid of a distro as you'll see. I haven't used it myself, but it's become pretty much the standard for the Linux workstations where I work. I may try it out on my next test machine.

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:55 AM

SNEAKER98


As far as Windows being the lesser of three evils, I don't get the logic. If all you care about is user-friendliness, then I get it.
Yes, and no. It's not about about what "I" care about; it's the purpose of a home OS: EASE. I don't neccessarily need that ease, and perhaps neither do you; but in a general argument about OS's, you have to keep that in mind. Users don't want to piddle about with "Will this software be able to run on my OS?" if they're using OSX, nor do they want to have to fiddle with just about everything to get a linux distro actually working.

Which, right now, makes windows the option for a home user. Plain and simple.

I've never experienced problems moving/deleting files in Linux or Mac because the OS still thinks the file's in use. Hell, the simple fact that the number one solution to most problems is to reboot the computer is proof positive that Windows is completely inadequate when it comes to resource management.
Most of the times that occurs, it's not any fault of the OS. It's because the programmer didn't clean up his program when it closed down.

It's stuff like this that overexaggerates Microsoft's blame for overexaggerated problems of Windows XP.

Solaris isn't just any *NIX. It used to be UNIX. It's a proprietary branch of the old AT&T SysV version of UNIX.
Eh, there's so many flavours of unix and linux, it's usually just best to generalize them all with *nix due to similarities.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:49 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Yes, and no. It's not about about what "I" care about; it's the purpose of a home OS: EASE. I don't neccessarily need that ease, and perhaps neither do you; but in a general argument about OS's, you have to keep that in mind. Users don't want to piddle about with "Will this software be able to run on my OS?" if they're using OSX, nor do they want to have to fiddle with just about everything to get a linux distro actually working.

Which, right now, makes windows the option for a home user. Plain and simple.


I guess we just differ on what the purpose of an OS is. You say "ease", I disagree. Functionality is more important to me than ease of use.

Most of the times that occurs, it's not any fault of the OS. It's because the programmer didn't clean up his program when it closed down.

It's stuff like this that overexaggerates Microsoft's blame for overexaggerated problems of Windows XP.


Most of the time? I doubt it. I'm sure it's a factor, but I've seen it happen with all manner of software, ESPECIALLY Microsoft software.


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Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:53 AM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
I guess we just differ on what the purpose of an OS is. You say "ease", I disagree. Functionality is more important to me than ease of use.


A true linux user.

Ask yourself this: what good is functionality if I don't know how to use it?

Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
Most of the time? I doubt it. I'm sure it's a factor, but I've seen it happen with all manner of software, ESPECIALLY Microsoft software.


Well, considering I'm the fellow who would craft said programs, I wouldn't doubt it one bit. There's plenty of ways that I can leave something floating in memory, or forget to clean up a binary stream, etc etc.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:07 PM

RETROVERTIGO


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
A true linux user.

Ask yourself this: what good is functionality if I don't know how to use it?


The ignorance of others isn't my fault.

j/k... I understand where you're coming from, but you're speaking from a standpoint of what's better for the unwashed masses, while I'm going on my personal opinion.

Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
Well, considering I'm the fellow who would craft said programs, I wouldn't doubt it one bit. There's plenty of ways that I can leave something floating in memory, or forget to clean up a binary stream, etc etc.


I've done my fair share of programming, both in Linux and in Windows. The difference between the two operating systems is that when you have a memory leak in Linux, killing the offending process actually rectifies the problem, whereas in Windows you're pretty much resigned to rebooting even if you are able to kill the process. This brings me back to the issue of resource management. Windows is terrible at it, plain and simple. It's leaps and bounds better than it was prior to the introduction of the NT/2000 kernel, but it's still got a long way to go before it even approaches the neighborhood of its competitors.


I do have good things to say about Microsoft, however. They're miles above anyone else as far as synergy goes. Media Center and their backend server apps (Microsoft Provisioning System, etc.) are amazing. They're absolute hogs when it comes to memory and disk space, and they can tend to take a lot of work to keep running smoothly, but they're phenomenal achievements in synergy.

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:10 PM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
The ignorance of others isn't my fault.


And there, folks, you have the exact reason why I hate Linux.

Its community. Its community gets so full of itself and their computer abilities. It's folks like this that think we should go back to the PARC labs era of OS's.

It angers me to no end because they've lost sight of exactly why operating systems came into the public market.

Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
j/k... I understand where you're coming from, but you're speaking from a standpoint of what's better for the unwashed masses, while I'm going on my personal opinion.


I don't think you're actually kidding.

Of course I'm arguing about the masses. As I said, in a general argument about OS's, which this is, you have to keep them in mind.

If there wasn't the masses, we wouldn't have computers. There certainly wouldn't be an service providers, and no one would bother making any hardware, let alone such niceities as games, word processors, etc.


"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:29 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@RetroVertigo:
"""
I've never experienced problems moving/deleting files in Linux or Mac because the OS still thinks the file's in use.
"""

Never?


"""
It's based off of Debian, which is as solid of a distro as you'll see.
"""

What about Slackware?


@Sneaker98:
"""
Users don't want to piddle about with "Will this software be able to run on my OS?" if they're using OSX,
"""

This is basically M$ propaganda at work. I've never not been able to do something because I was running OSX, never. And that goes from writing my code to any user land application that I could think of.

In fact, I'm really wondering what I'm supposed to be missing running OSX. Because, I really don't see it. That is, aside from the fact that a good portion of games aren't ported to OSX. But, that is changing, and exactly what consoles are for.


"""
nor do they want to have to fiddle with just about everything to get a linux distro actually working.
"""


And some more propaganda.

Most (all?) modern Linux distro's come with pretty much everything you'll need already installed. In fact, about 5 years ago, when I last installed a Linux, the installer was as freindly as the windows installer.

Esentially, if you are Joe User and don't need to custom anything, Linux is pretty much as easy to use as windows.

The only point that you might have here is the learning curve to a new system. But, last time I checked, that was true for the first time people used windows as well.


"""
Most of the times that occurs, it's not any fault of the OS. It's because the programmer didn't clean up his program when it closed down.
"""

I've run into this problem, but it doesn't last. As in, I move to trash and I get the error. But, I wait a moment or two and move to trash again, and it works.

I've never had the problem persist.


"""
It's stuff like this that overexaggerates Microsoft's blame for overexaggerated problems of Windows XP.
"""

Perhaps you should check out the long list of bugs that M$ has generated in the OS itself and not 3rd party software.


"""
Ask yourself this: what good is functionality if I don't know how to use it?
"""

You yourself this: what good is functionality if I can't use it because I'm constantly having to reboot my machine?


"""
Well, considering I'm the fellow who would craft said programs, I wouldn't doubt it one bit. There's plenty of ways that I can leave something floating in memory, or forget to clean up a binary stream, etc etc.
"""

As someone else that is a programmer, if you are in industry and is able to produce this many bugs, you are so incompetent that you should be fired and never allowed to code another line again. Not saying that you in particular are, just stating a fact.

And the fact of the matter is that people writing code for M$ really seem to embody this mentality. I've never had a program run smooth on a windows machine.


Also, to your comment prior in the thread, windows 3.1 is not an OS. It is a program that ran on top of DOS which was the OS.


----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:34 PM

RETROVERTIGO


Stone faced, 'till the last, eh?

I don't recall this being a "general argument about OS's". The thread starter ask people to give their thoughts on their favorite OS, and I've done so. So far as I've seen, you're the only one trying to steer this into a discussion about what's good for the mainstream.

Hell, if you want to talk about what's good for the masses, as a support rep I've personally talked to nearly a dozen people who have gone from Windows to Mac and aren't regretful in the least. One thing that Apple does which Microsoft doesn't is they provide a searchable list of applications, both first and third party, right on their website. They've made it easy for people to find, and in many cases download directly from their site, all manner of software, for damn near every aspect of their computing needs. The software's out there, and Apple's gone above and beyond the call to educate their users. Of course, a cynic (which I'm known for being) might say that this is a calculated plot to get people to switch, but A) it's working, and B) if ease is the mark of a good OS, Apple's on the right track.

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:39 PM

RETROVERTIGO


Never?

Never.


What about Slackware?

It's my flavor of choice, that's what. Been a Slacker since 4.0.

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:40 PM

SNEAKER98


This is basically M$ propaganda at work. I've never not been able to do something because I was running OSX, never. And that goes from writing my code to any user land application that I could think of.

In fact, I'm really wondering what I'm supposed to be missing running OSX. Because, I really don't see it. That is, aside from the fact that a good portion of games aren't ported to OSX. But, that is changing, and exactly what consoles are for.

As I recall, you use the OSX exactly as intended; the software you need is already there and made for mac's.

But, the vast vast majority of games for instance, do not work on a Mac. And the vast majority of programs do not work either. That's just how it is.

And some more propaganda.

Most (all?) modern Linux distro's come with pretty much everything you'll need already installed. In fact, about 5 years ago, when I last installed a Linux, the installer was as freindly as the windows installer.

Esentially, if you are Joe User and don't need to custom anything, Linux is pretty much as easy to use as windows.

The only point that you might have here is the learning curve to a new system. But, last time I checked, that was true for the first time people used windows as well.

Let me put it this way: I'm not exactly new at computers. But suffice it to say, I had a hell of a time installing Suse 9 on my desktop. Half of the software I had to get third party, and I had a hell of a time getting my network card to actually be detected and get online. Let alone installing the proper libraries and whatnot.

As for windows? I've installed it over 20 times now, and it's incredibly simple. As it has to be.

Perhaps you should check out the long list of bugs that M$ has generated in the OS itself and not 3rd party software.
There's certainly a long list of bugs; problem is, OSX's was longer in 2005 ;)

You yourself this: what good is functionality if I can't use it because I'm constantly having to reboot my machine?
I can't remember the last time I had to reboot my machine mid-use. An overexaggerated problem.

As someone else that is a programmer, if you are in industry and is able to produce this many bugs, you are so incompetent that you should be fired and never allowed to code another line again. Not saying that you in particular are, just stating a fact.
Do you recall Sony's rootkit? A company by the name of First4Internet I believe made the crappiest, shittiest, lamest piece of code to ensure copywrite protection. And it got into thousands of peoples computers.

These things happen all the time, and it only takes one to screw up your PC all to hell.

Also, to your comment prior in the thread, windows 3.1 is not an OS. It is a program that ran on top of DOS which was the OS.
Now, if I say I used DOS as an OS, who the heck would know what I was saying aside from using command lines and a smattering of 8bit games?

One thing that Apple does which Microsoft doesn't is they provide a searchable list of applications, both first and third party, right on their website.
Well... Microsoft doesn't exactly need to, do they!

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:40 PM

SNEAKER98


This is basically M$ propaganda at work. I've never not been able to do something because I was running OSX, never. And that goes from writing my code to any user land application that I could think of.

In fact, I'm really wondering what I'm supposed to be missing running OSX. Because, I really don't see it. That is, aside from the fact that a good portion of games aren't ported to OSX. But, that is changing, and exactly what consoles are for.

As I recall, you use the OSX exactly as intended; the software you need is already there and made for mac's.

But, the vast vast majority of games for instance, do not work on a Mac. And the vast majority of programs do not work either. That's just how it is.

And some more propaganda.

Most (all?) modern Linux distro's come with pretty much everything you'll need already installed. In fact, about 5 years ago, when I last installed a Linux, the installer was as freindly as the windows installer.

Esentially, if you are Joe User and don't need to custom anything, Linux is pretty much as easy to use as windows.

The only point that you might have here is the learning curve to a new system. But, last time I checked, that was true for the first time people used windows as well.

Let me put it this way: I'm not exactly new at computers. But suffice it to say, I had a hell of a time installing Suse 9 on my desktop. Half of the software I had to get third party, and I had a hell of a time getting my network card to actually be detected and get online. Let alone installing the proper libraries and whatnot.

As for windows? I've installed it over 20 times now, and it's incredibly simple. As it has to be.

Perhaps you should check out the long list of bugs that M$ has generated in the OS itself and not 3rd party software.
There's certainly a long list of bugs; problem is, OSX's was longer in 2005 ;)

You yourself this: what good is functionality if I can't use it because I'm constantly having to reboot my machine?
I can't remember the last time I had to reboot my machine mid-use. An overexaggerated problem.

As someone else that is a programmer, if you are in industry and is able to produce this many bugs, you are so incompetent that you should be fired and never allowed to code another line again. Not saying that you in particular are, just stating a fact.
Do you recall Sony's rootkit? A company by the name of First4Internet I believe made the crappiest, shittiest, lamest piece of code to ensure copywrite protection. And it got into thousands of peoples computers.

These things happen all the time, and it only takes one to screw up your PC all to hell.

Also, to your comment prior in the thread, windows 3.1 is not an OS. It is a program that ran on top of DOS which was the OS.
Now, if I say I used DOS as an OS, who the heck would know what I was saying aside from using command lines and a smattering of 8bit games?

One thing that Apple does which Microsoft doesn't is they provide a searchable list of applications, both first and third party, right on their website.
Well... Microsoft doesn't exactly need to, do they!

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 1:10 PM

CITIZEN


You see I don't get why things can't be solid and easy too use and run lots of Software. Running lots of Software means emulating the Windows API at the moment, which would be lots of work but not 'hard' if you already had a solid operating system.

Likewise, ease of use isn't hard, just get the OS to do everything for you, make that scaleable and Geeks will be happy too...

Way I see it Linux is an OS by Geeks for Geeks, as such its perfect for what it is. But I think if you had an OS by Geeks for the type of people who look for the 'any key' and run Windows software we may actually be moving towards something good, like the death of MS Windows.



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Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:48 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@Sneaker98:
"""
But, the vast vast majority of games for instance, do not work on a Mac. And the vast majority of programs do not work either. That's just how it is.
"""

So, then only M$ Office can edit .doc? By saying these things, you are implying things that are provably false ie the previous sentence.


"""
Let me put it this way: I'm not exactly new at computers. But suffice it to say, I had a hell of a time installing Suse 9 on my desktop. Half of the software I had to get third party, and I had a hell of a time getting my network card to actually be detected and get online. Let alone installing the proper libraries and whatnot.

As for windows? I've installed it over 20 times now, and it's incredibly simple. As it has to be.
"""

There are other distro's aside from Suse you know. And as for using your experience with one distro to prove that Linux is hard to install... sophistry.

Also, how many Joe User's out there are actually going to install there OS? Pretty much none. It is the exception to the rule that this is happening. Joe User is going to take his/her computer down to the place that (s)he bought it from to get it fixed. Not do it themselves.


"""
There's certainly a long list of bugs; problem is, OSX's was longer in 2005 ;)
"""

Cherry picking the year then? And how many critical errors?

Wait a minute. You said this previously in the thread "
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1932659,00.asp
Another very interesting article. Mac had more software flaws than Windows in 2005, albeit windows had 5 or 10 more critical flaws than Mac.
"

Now call me crazy, but I don't really care much about flaws that'll make a program crash from time to time (though that is irritating). I really care about the flaws that'll really screw me. And by your own admition, M$ had more than OSX in 2005.

I'd imagine that most users have the same view point.


"""
I can't remember the last time I had to reboot my machine mid-use. An overexaggerated problem.
"""

My parents would disagree. Along with one of my buddies that has to have two system setups because he needs one video driver to play a couple games and another for everything else.

Yah, stable OS


"""
Do you recall Sony's rootkit? A company by the name of First4Internet I believe made the crappiest, shittiest, lamest piece of code to ensure copywrite protection. And it got into thousands of peoples computers.

These things happen all the time, and it only takes one to screw up your PC all to hell.
"""

Please describe you point.


"""
Now, if I say I used DOS as an OS, who the heck would know what I was saying aside from using command lines and a smattering of 8bit games?
"""

You're the one who called it an OS not me. Which as I pointed out is a fallacy. Also, Mechwarrior 2 was a DOS game, along with several Wing Commanders (upto 4 I believe). So, saying DOS only has "a smattering of 8bit games" has be proven false. It also proves you ignorance in this area.

----
I'd also link to know how you think that it's ok for you to trash OSX given that you've said the below.

"""
I'm not about to trash an operating system if I don't have experience on it. (For future ref, I've used windows 3.1, 95, 98, 98SE, 2k, XP, as well as OS9, SuSe, Redhat, and am currently dual-booting with Solaris and WinXP)
"""

OS9. Hm, OSX is not in the list. Hypocrite anyone?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:58 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

You see I don't get why things can't be solid and easy too use and run lots of Software. Running lots of Software means emulating the Windows API at the moment, which would be lots of work but not 'hard' if you already had a solid operating system.




WINE comes to mind. I've even heard of people running World Of Warcraft under it!

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/15/1334241



----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 3:19 PM

CITIZEN


Yeah WINE I've heard good things.

I'm thinking built directly into the OS though, so there's no (or little) performance hit and the OS can run Win32 straight out of the box.

I refrenced earlier the idea of writing an OS from the ground up, I still want to do it, I have a name at least (Portal, for port all...) but I'm no fool, the semantics for creating it are pretty staggering.

You need big teams to create something like that ...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:38 PM

TIGER


I've been watching this thread with great interest. I'm no expert in operating systems, but I've been curious for a while about experimenting with something new, strictly from a user's perspective.

Unfortunately, in this thread one guy says "A" and the next guy says "B". Maybe it would shed some light on the subject if you have a more specific, real-world example, namely me. Should I try Linux or a Mac?

My current system:
Windows XP sp2
1 gb RAM
200 gb storage
2.4 mhz Pentium 4
dual monitors

Normal usage:
Firefox & I.E.
Email with Thunderbird
Graphic/web design with Dreamweaver, Photoshop/Illustrator, Flash
Hauppaugge TV tuner with Beyond TV to watch TV on one monitor while working or surfing on the other
Bittorrents
DVDs/music with Windows Media or VLC
Microsoft Office
DVD burning with Nero

Do you think I'd get along alright with Linux or a Mac? Would it be worth the trouble of switching and relearning?

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:45 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@Tiger:
It's probably take a lot of tweaking in Linux to get all that stuff working properly. So, for an end user, I'd suggest trying Mac first.

I believe that there are ways to get OSX to work on a PC though I haven't tried it myself (YMMV). It might be something to try first (or just going into a Mac store and playing ).

That's my 2 cents at least

EDIT:
"""
Would it be worth the trouble of switching and relearning?
"""

Depends on you, on what you actually do with it. Depends on how much you like the new OS. This is a question only you can answer.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:48 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@Citizen:
Don't think that we'll see it in our day.

*sigh*


Then again, perhaps if you build it, they will come...

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:22 PM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:So, then only M$ Office can edit .doc? By saying these things, you are implying things that are provably false ie the previous sentence.

Actually give me a reasonable list, or don't even bother responding to the point.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:There are other distro's aside from Suse you know. And as for using your experience with one distro to prove that Linux is hard to install... sophistry.

Might want to re-read my list. I've done more than just Suse; that's simply an example.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Also, how many Joe User's out there are actually going to install there OS? Pretty much none. It is the exception to the rule that this is happening. Joe User is going to take his/her computer down to the place that (s)he bought it from to get it fixed. Not do it themselves.

More than you think. And why shouldn't they, if it's a breeze? Windows sure as heck is. *nix sure isn't. And OSX would be, I'm assuming, because they only use their own hardware in their neat little box (my main beef).

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Now call me crazy, but I don't really care much about flaws that'll make a program crash from time to time (though that is irritating). I really care about the flaws that'll really screw me. And by your own admition, M$ had more than OSX in 2005.

I'd imagine that most users have the same view point.


But then my point would be right over your head, wouldn't it? Folks are touting OSX as the flawless piece of software; point was, it's not.

But congrats on missing the point.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:My parents would disagree. Along with one of my buddies that has to have two system setups because he needs one video driver to play a couple games and another for everything else.

Yah, stable OS


Then what the hell have they installed on their computer? Probably some crappy third party software which is doing it.

As for your buddy; guess who's fault that is? Gee, wouldn't it be the maker of that driver, which isn't windows? Yeah, I think so.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Please describe you point.

Sony made a piece of shit program? It hid all files with the names beginning with "sys_" from the OS, thus allowing virii to piggyback on top. And even more, if you tried to uninstall it, it would corrupt the driver for your cd/dvd player.

Thought the point was obvious, though. There's a lot of crappy third party stuff out there, which windows gets the blame for.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:You're the one who called it an OS not me. Which as I pointed out is a fallacy. Also, Mechwarrior 2 was a DOS game, along with several Wing Commanders (upto 4 I believe). So, saying DOS only has "a smattering of 8bit games" has be proven false. It also proves you ignorance in this area.

I'm taking one thing out of this argument: you're a jackass, with absolutely no concept of flair to make a point. You're so desperate to make a damned point that you'll turn this into a pissing contest.

No dice.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:I'd also link to know how you think that it's ok for you to trash OSX given that you've said the below.

You might want to reread what context that was in (someone calling WinXP buggy while stating he hadn't used it since 98), and what I've actually said about OSX. I'll quote some experts, and link to some articles, but I'm not about to trash it for a point that requires some use out of it.

But, of course, if you actually went a reread what I've said, you wouldn't be able to be a jackass and call me a hypocrit. And where's the fun in that?

Linux users. They always turn it into one big pissing contest about their abilities. Man it gets old arguing with some of these folks.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 7:22 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Hey now, don't go lumping him in with me. I'm not interested in making this any kind of pissing contest. I haven't resorted to name calling.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 7:25 AM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
Hey now, don't go lumping him in with me. I'm not interested in making this any kind of pissing contest. I haven't resorted to name calling.


Fair enough, I apologize to you. I did generalize linux users a bit too unfairly.

This isn't the first time I've had this kind of argument with a linux user. Nor will it be the last.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 7:49 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Thanks.

I'd like to address your comments on how the majority of software is for Windows-- I think this is more a function of market share than anything else. You can obtain software to do just about anything you can do in Windows for Mac OS, and (thanks to its open-source friendliness) many things you can't do in Windows without purchasing or pirating expensive software.

There's been a real groundswell of developers who have seen the writing on the wall and started developing for the Mac since OS X was released. Native versions of the Unreal Tournament and World of Warcraft series are prime examples.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:02 AM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
I'd like to address your comments on how the majority of software is for Windows-- I think this is more a function of market share than anything else.


Well, of course it is! I don't think I've given any illusions to it being otherwise.

It recieved this larger market share because arguable, in the beginning, it was indeed the better option for an OS. Does this neccessarily still apply? We honestly don't know. Neither linux, nor OSX has had the hacker attention that XP has.

Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
You can obtain software to do just about anything you can do in Windows for Mac OS, and (thanks to its open-source friendliness) many things you can't do in Windows without purchasing or pirating expensive software.


Ah, but there is a few problems with open source. Sometimes, you have a great bunch of folks who are really coordinated and can produce a great project. But, sometimes, you get a POS. A really big, stinkin' POS.

Also, who do you think pays for open source when it's company based (ie: tomcat, looking glass, etc)? Their private software licences.

A third problem, and mostly applies to larger businesses: who exactly is going to support your product? For a home user, it may work out provided the answer to your question is in a newsgroup somewhere. But your best bet is to cross your fingers and hope to god Google finds the answer. And that's really not good enough sometimes.

Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
There's been a real groundswell of developers who have seen the writing on the wall and started developing for the Mac since OS X was released. Native versions of the Unreal Tournament and World of Warcraft series are prime examples.


Well sure, with a larger market share, I'm not suprised that there's more OSX applications coming out.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:29 AM

RETROVERTIGO


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
Well, of course it is! I don't think I've given any illusions to it being otherwise.

It recieved this larger market share because arguable, in the beginning, it was indeed the better option for an OS. Does this neccessarily still apply? We honestly don't know. Neither linux, nor OSX has had the hacker attention that XP has.


I'm pretty psyched to see what the next couple years bring to Mac OS, and I think that Apple won't sit idly by after the recent Safari bug. Their reaction was pretty dramatic, they pushed their developers to find any bug they could, and released a patch fixing about 20 bugs. I think they know that this is their shot to really make a dent here, and they're not about to squander it with complacency. Only time will tell.

Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
Ah, but there is a few problems with open source. Sometimes, you have a great bunch of folks who are really coordinated and can produce a great project. But, sometimes, you get a POS. A really big, stinkin' POS.


Yes, but this is true of commercial applications as well. The ones that are terrible are rooted out because they just flat out don't work.

Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
Also, who do you think pays for open source when it's company based (ie: tomcat, looking glass, etc)? Their private software licences.


True, but on the whole open-source solutions are cheaper, this can't be disputed. If I gave the impression that open source = completely free, that was not my intent.

Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:
A third problem, and mostly applies to larger businesses: who exactly is going to support your product? For a home user, it may work out provided the answer to your question is in a newsgroup somewhere. But your best bet is to cross your fingers and hope to god Google finds the answer. And that's really not good enough sometimes.


I work for a large company myself, and we get by using Linux and open-source on a fairly large scale. The amount of money that can be saved is actually quite staggering, and allows us to employ people capable of maintaining our open-source apps while still maintaining a profit margin that continues to grow, year after year.

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:35 AM

SIGMANUNKI


You know what? My first post was one in which I complete tore apart Sneaker98's argument. (s)he's posts are nothing but sophistry, personal attacks and unsubtanitated claims. (S)he was the first to put out the "I'm a programmer so I know what I'm talking about" etc stuff, not me. And I allowed myself to be pulled into that childish pissing contest.

Now I see that. So, here's the second attempt.


I am not a Linux user.

OpenOffice is cross-platform and can edit any M$ Office files. For other software that can be used to do many other things on OSX I've found versiontracker ( http://www.versiontracker.com/macosx/) to be a great resource along with google.

Sneaker98's list includes 3 *NIX's ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#265281). Hardly making him/her an expert.

Just because an OS is easy to install doesn't mean the average user is aware of that, nor does it mean that they'll actually do it. And in my experience, only the techie's will install OS's and will do so for there non-techie friends. These are hardly Joe User types.

Also, the variety of hardware or lack thereof does not have anything to do with how easy an OS is to install. The ease comes from the interface that the installer has and it's organization, not what is underneth.

And to say that Apple uses there own hardware is misleading. An example of this is that Apple uses ATI video cards. Other examples can be found in the hw specs for the various Mac systems.

I've never come across anyone who touts OSX as a flawless piece of software and I know me so I'm certainly not one of them.

About the drivers I mentioned above. The problem would be the result of a 3rd party iff both drivers were 3rd party. Point of fact, one of them was the one that came with windows, which would now make it a M$ problem. Sneaker98, you should really stop making such baseless assumptions.

Although M$ does get some blame for shoddy 3rd party software, this in no way implies that M$ makes good software, nor a good OS. In fact, one only needs to go to security focus ( http://www.securityfocus.com/)) and look through the mailing list archives for proof that M$ windows has never been a good OS.

"Security is decided by quality" - Theo de Raadt

I did not turn this into a pissing contest. That first stone was thrown by Sneaker98 when (s)he said, "Well, considering I'm the fellow who would craft said programs," ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#269316). You don't try to pull rank in a place like FFFs.net as you are guarentted to have at least a dozen others with your qualifications and/or better to come down on you if you are making silly statments (which (s)he is doing here).

The people that I'm talking about have basically only M$ software on there computers. To blaim all or most of windows problems on 3rd party software is fallacious to say the least. And another really bad assumption.

When someone says that they won't trash an OS if they haven't used it, and then goes and trashes it even though they haven't used it, that makes tham a hypocrite, regardless of context in which it is said. Sneaker98, if you want to dispute that, then you're going to have to do better than just saying "you're wrong." Justify it (that goes for everything else here as well).


Point of fact, Sneaker98 has been rude to me:
"you're a jackass," ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#269591)

RetroVertigo:
"
And there, folks, you have the exact reason why I hate Linux.

Its community.
" ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#969324)

implying RetroVertigo is one of the problems:

and Caitlyn:
"
A little bedtime reading for you regarding your beloved linux and its "airtight" security:
" ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#265668)

at least.

All the posts that I've read from Sneaker98 has been very agressive in tone and quite condesending.

So, Sneaker98, you'll reply with a civil tougne, or you won't get a reponse. That is from me. I won't speak for anyone else, but I certainly will not continue on this childish endevour that you've lead us down and continue to escalate.


And here's some more evidence for my opinion ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589#269837):
"
If it's just another pissing contest, we don't want it.
"

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 11:29 AM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
New post forthcoming


If it's just another pissing contest, we don't want it.

But, since he did it anyways, there's a simple thing to respond to.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, Sneaker98, you'll reply with a civil tougne, or you won't get a reponse. That is from me. I won't speak for anyone else, but I certainly will not continue on this childish endevour that you've lead us down and continue to escalate.


It's far, far too late for you to take the high road, kiddo.

I'm man enough to admit when I've gone too far. I apologized to Retrovertigo flat out because it was the right thing to do.

You, however, are a jackass, which I stated after you had turned this into one big pissing contest. You went above and beyond "I'm a programmer, so I do know a bit of this and that" to "I'm a better programmer than you. You don't know what you're talking about. Blah, blah, blah."

Begone from this thread.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:03 AM

RETROVERTIGO


In other news, I got my MacBook Pro today.


It's amazing.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:48 AM

HAZE


Congratulations!I hope you enjoy it.

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:12 AM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by retrovertigo:
In other news, I got my MacBook Pro today.


It's amazing.


My brother has the big 20 inch screen iMac's. Tis a great view, but too expensive for my tastes!

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:58 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:

It's far, far too late for you to take the high road, kiddo.




Kiddo, that's amusing.

So then, it's ok for you to take this "highroad," but not ok for me to step back, take account of things, and restart? Even after you are the one who started the whole name calling thing?

Hm.


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:

I'm man enough to admit when I've gone too far. I apologized to Retrovertigo flat out because it was the right thing to do.




But not to me then? Even given what I've shown?


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:

You, however, are a jackass, which I stated after you had turned this into one big pissing contest. You went above and beyond "I'm a programmer, so I do know a bit of this and that" to "I'm a better programmer than you. You don't know what you're talking about. Blah, blah, blah."




No actually that was you, as I showed above. You just can't state things. You have to link, quote etc for statements to hold any weight.

And when did I say I'm a better programmer than you? Perhaps you are reading into things more than what's actually there, because I said no such thing.


Quote:

Originally posted by sneaker98:

Begone from this thread.




You forget yourself.


Basically, I have shown that you are the one who instigated misbehaving in this thread. And you were doing it a good portion of time before I started posting in this thread. Please note that my first post in this thread (addressing you) is 3/4 down the list right now whereas yours is about a 1/3. And you became aggressive straight away.

I have also shown that you lack the expertise to condemn OSX and comment on the state of Linux in general. Namely by referencing your own posts.

You have also failed to substatiate any claims that you have made towards me, whereas my last post is riddled with links.

In fact, my last post takes a step back and only discusses the facts. I make conjectures and state opinions, and use references to back-up my claims. You have done no such thing in our conversation. You have only used half truths and exceptions to the case to "prove" your point, linking to nothing to support your claims. Then you resorted to petty name calling.


Basically, you think you have the ability to take the highroad, but you seem to not be aware that you are floating in mid air, not on some ivory tower. I'm just interested in seeing if you'll look down, realize it, and fall. Much like a cartoon character.

But, you seem to think that your position is solid and are not even willing to take any critisism what-so-ever. So, I have little hope that you'll see the light.

So, continue to use half truths and exceptions to the case to "prove" your points. Just don't expect many to buy what you're selling.


I'll also note that I gave you the opportunity to continue this discussion in an civil manner. To continue, using references, using facts not half truths, etc. And you choose to go in a childish direction ("You, however, are a jackass," and "Begone from this thread."). Not even accepting or addressing any critisism.

Your last post is quite grandose and immature.


Please don't respond to this post unless you are willing and able to continue in a manner becoming of someone who is an adult. Your profile states that you are a college student, so I assume that you should at least be capable of it.

I'll just have to wait and see. And if anyone thinks that this is an antagonistic post, just go back and read Sneaker98's posts in this thread to see what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about continuing with facts and references. Which I've done. Which Sneaker98 seems incapable of doing. I await to be proven wrong.


EDIT 1: How is a 20'' iMac expensive? It's a sweet machine the comes with a moniter, keyboard and mouse for $2000 (CAD)/$1700 (USD)! That's a good price!

EDIT 2: RetroVertigo: Sweet! It living up to its claims?


----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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