angel and darla's baby by est120

ANGELUS ARCANUM

angel and darla's baby

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 01:05
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VIEWED: 1344
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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 4:06 AM

okay, i am confused. angel and darla are connor's parents. that much makes sense. what does not make a whole lot of sense is HOW they were able to have connor. does this get explained later? wesley says (and pretty much everyone agrees) that vampires cannot have children. granted, angel has a soul which makes him unique amongst vampires, so that may have something to do with it. still, i am quite perplexed. wes speculated that the baby might be the vampire with a soul mentioned in the shanshu prophecy, but when connor is born he is not a vampire even though he has demon qualities (like being able to jump off buildings and he seems to heal quite quickly). this makes me think that connor is NOT the vampire with a soul from the prophecy. can anyone help to clear this up? wild speculation is welcome! :smile:

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:02 AM

GROUNDED

Towards the end of S4 it is explained that Connor's life was Angel's reward for completing the Trial - the S2 ep in which he wins Darla's life back but is then denied it because Darla had already been brought back by mystical means. One of the few things about S4 that made any sense...

And on the topic of Connor/superpowers - does anyone else think he should have just been a normal kid?

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:23 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded: And on the topic of Connor/superpowers - does anyone else think he should have just been a normal kid?

Given season 5...

Nope.

:biggrin:

(Yes, I'm avoiding spoilers. If you've seen S5, hopefully you'll know what I'm referring to...)

Rabit

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:24 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Yeah, Angel and Darla were never supposed to have Connor. It's constantly mentioned that 2 vamps having a child is impossible, throughout the Buffy/Angelverses Impossible, they said, over and over again, but it happened, and here we are, with no explanation.

Since Connor's birth also coincided with the eventual creation/birth of Jasmine, his whole existence might possibly be traced back to when Cordy got the visions, allowing her to become infected (if you will) with the demon Jasmine and the eventual sex with Connor that gave birth to Jasmine.

Even assuming that -- the fact that Cordy got the visions from another source than the Powers That Be, and the visions are perhaps not as helpful as she thought -- it is never completely explained *how* Darla became pregnant. The mystical aspect of it was discussed (and researched) by Wesley, but no conclusions were ever reached because of the prophecy Wes discovered, "The Father Will Kill the Son."

The prophecy we find out later was manipulated by Sahjahn so that he wouldn't be killed by Connor.

There's Sahjahn's involvement, and then there's the demon Skip, who essentially told us:

Cordy is manipulated to get visions; ascends to higher plane; gets overtaken by evil force; returns with amnesia; we discover she's actually just a shell as Jasmine is now inside her; she sleeps with Connor and gets pregnant; Jasmine is born; world peace.

Connor plays a huge role in that as well, but it was never mentioned if Skip and Jasmine had any hand in Connor's creation in order to bring about the eventual "birth" of Jasmine. It would have been interesting, in my opinion, if Jasmine had somehow used Darla to make sure Darla became pregnant with Connor.

Whew, confusing!

I wish they would have revisited the question of Connor's birth; all was forgotten after Wes took Connor!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:27 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile: all was forgotten after Wes took Connor!

not by angel! :biggrin: hahahahaha.

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:35 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded: Towards the end of S4 it is explained that Connor's life was Angel's reward for completing the Trial - the S2 ep in which he wins Darla's life back but is then denied it because Darla had already been brought back by mystical means. One of the few things about S4 that made any sense...

Yeah, I don't think they stressed this explanation enough, but I think this was the canon excuse....

It was clear in S5, even w/memory loss, it didn't change or alter the fact that Connor had super powers

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:36 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded: Towards the end of S4 it is explained that Connor's life was Angel's reward for completing the Trial - the S2 ep in which he wins Darla's life back but is then denied it because Darla had already been brought back by mystical means. One of the few things about S4 that made any sense...

And on the topic of Connor/superpowers - does anyone else think he should have just been a normal kid?

Which ep exactly was it mentioned? Because if they mentioned it in some offhanded way, obviously some of us who have been paying attention seemed to have missed it! And since I can't remember, maybe they didn't make a big deal over something that dominated most of the latter half of Season 3?! Argh!

As for Connor/superpowers, I never quite understood that ep in Season 4 when Lorne and the crew cast the demon protection spell to prevent violence after Angelus gets out. Then Angelus comes back to the hotel, Connor takes a swing at him, and the spell goes off. Connor is freaked, wondering what exactly he is, since the spell only reacts with demons. Did they ever revisit that? Does that have something to do with his "miracle" birth? He was human when he was born, but grew up to be not-quite-human. His time in Q'uortoth couldn't have done it to him. That was never explained, nor were his superpowers. Aieeeeee, I'm getting frustrated!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 6:14 AM

CYBERSNARK

Connor could be a male Slayer. . .

----- We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:44 AM

ZEEK

I assume Connor is basically a human with vampire strengths and no vampire weaknesses. Him setting off Lorne's spell thing could just be that he's not exactly human so he's therefore classified as demon. The birth was explained by the whole trial thing Angel went through. Sort of a crummy reward though. Here's your reward, a kid who doesn't like you and will act maliciously toward you (don't want to be too specific and spoilery here). Enjoy!

bah

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:16 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit: Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded: And on the topic of Connor/superpowers - does anyone else think he should have just been a normal kid?
Given season 5...

Nope.

:biggrin:

(Yes, I'm avoiding spoilers. If you've seen S5, hopefully you'll know what I'm referring to...)

Rabit

I've seen every episode so you're not going to spoil me - but I fail to see what you mean. I was trying to say that I think it was a bad decision to make Connor some kind of super-kid. It certainly wasn't necessary for the plot.

Rhymephile - I believe the episode was Inside Out, but I'm no authority on S4 seeing as I've only watched it once...

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:05 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded: I've seen every episode so you're not going to spoil me - but I fail to see what you mean. I was trying to say that I think it was a bad decision to make Connor some kind of super-kid. It certainly wasn't necessary for the plot.

My apologies - I didn't realize that this was going to be a spoiler-heavy thread. :smile:

I'm referring to the fact that Conner had to be able to defeat Sahjhan - as he does in "Origin" (ep 5.18). Sahjhan supposedly manipulated the prophecy that said Conner would kill him. Well, if the prophecy is supposed to happen (and what good would it be if it didn't), then Conner would have to be able to kill him.

Personally, I think that they gave him powers for a very good reason: he needed to be able to stand toe-to-toe with Angel, as both a companion and as an adversary. If he couldn't, the wonder of them fighting on the same side would have been lost, and the idea of Angel not being able to control him would have, also.

It also seemed to be a metaphor, though: the idea of a youth struggling with the fact that he is different from everyone else.

That's just my opinion, though. :biggrin:

Rabit

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:36 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Here it is, with spoilers:

Select to view spoiler:

This is all explained by Jasmine in one of the latter Season 4 episodes - I believe "Inside Out". She says that Connor was the reward of new life from season 2's "The Trial", when Angel tries to save Darla's life. She also explains that she made Connor's birth possible, as she needed "an impossible birth" to allow her own birth to happen. This is how a baby born to 2 vampires was possible - a divine intervention of sorts.

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:42 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit: I'm referring to the fact that Conner had to be able to defeat Sahjhan - as he does in "Origin" (ep 5.18). Sahjhan supposedly manipulated the prophecy that said Conner would kill him. Well, if the prophecy is supposed to happen (and what good would it be if it didn't), then Conner would have to be able to kill him.

It wouldn't take my creativity to come up with a way for him to win without powers.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit: It also seemed to be a metaphor, though: the idea of a youth struggling with the fact that he is different from everyone else.

He's different enough without powers - he's the son of two vampires who spent his entire childhood in a hell dimension. If only they'd focused on the fact that LA was totally alien to Connor a bit more I think the stories would have been a hell of a lot better. Instead they throw continuity out the window and make him a whiny, horny super-powered teenager and totally ignore the fact that he was raised by Holtz - a devoutly religious (and, hello, English!) man.

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:06 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel: Here it is, with spoilers:

Select to view spoiler:
This is all explained by Jasmine in one of the latter Season 4 episodes - I believe "Inside Out". She says that Connor was the reward of new life from season 2's "The Trial", when Angel tries to save Darla's life. She also explains that she made Connor's birth possible, as she needed "an impossible birth" to allow her own birth to happen. This is how a baby born to 2 vampires was possible - a divine intervention of sorts.

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

i think you just laid the whole issue to rest with this one. thanks for clearing it up! :smile:

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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:13 PM

RABIT

Oh, don't get me wrong, GROUNDED; I'm not defending what the writers did. I'm just explaining my perceptions of the reasons for it. I agree that this could have been handled in a much more interesting fashion. However, I don't think that they just gave Conner powers because they thought it would be "cool". I think that there were reasons for it, even if we don't agree that those reasons make sense or are worthwhile. :smile:

Rabit

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Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:17 AM

GROUNDED

Fair enough. I just think they have a tendency to make characters ridiculously powerful for no great reason. Count the 'invincible' characters they've had on both shows: The Mayor, Adam, Glory, Connor, The Beast, Jasmine, Caleb, Hamilton. Most of these are in the later years - it just felt like they couldn't come up with anything to make characters really interesting besides invulnerability. Look at villains like Holtz and Angel/Spike/Drusilla - they weren't invincible and yet the stories, and the drama, seemed so much more compelling. Practically all of Buffy's S7 was spent saying 'oh my god this is the worst evil we've ever faced' while nothing particularly bad was actually happening.

Hmm. I seemed to have sidetracked into a rant ;)

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Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:13 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek: Here's your reward, a kid who doesn't like you and will act maliciously toward you

I'd imagine that sums up the experience of every parent who's ever existed anywhere. :wink:

----- We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, December 09, 2004 6:44 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel: Here it is, with spoilers:

Select to view spoiler:
This is all explained by Jasmine in one of the latter Season 4 episodes - I believe "Inside Out". She says that Connor was the reward of new life from season 2's "The Trial", when Angel tries to save Darla's life. She also explains that she made Connor's birth possible, as she needed "an impossible birth" to allow her own birth to happen. This is how a baby born to 2 vampires was possible - a divine intervention of sorts.

Okay, this was driving me crazy since I couldn't remember, so I looked it up. The question of Connor's birth is sorta mentioned in the ep above, but the full explanation is:

Select to view spoiler:

In "Inside Out" it's Skip that gives us the run-down about how Jasmine (who at this point in the show doesn't have a name yet) manipulated events to have her brought forth. Skip says that everything that has happened, from Gunn's sister, to Fred's time in Pylea, to Wesley's thing with Lilah, to Cordy's getting the visions in the first place, was manipulated by Jasmine.

Then, in "Shiny Happy People" after Jasmine has been born and the crew are under her thrall, she tells them her history, and that she was one of the original powers on the Earth, until it was corrupted by demons. Jasmine waited for man to fix the mess, but when he didn't she decided to return by arranging a miracle, i.e. Connor's birth, and that Angel won Connor's life from "The Trial" in Season 2.

And I'm sorry, but it makes me head hurt to even try to understand and fit all the puzzle pieces together to have had this come about. Ugh.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Thursday, December 09, 2004 6:54 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark: Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek: Here's your reward, a kid who doesn't like you and will act maliciously toward you
I'd imagine that sums up the experience of every parent who's ever existed anywhere. :wink:

----- We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

Yeah but for them it's a consquence. You got your freak on now you're stuck with a kid. Not you were willing to sacrifice yourself for someone else and went through a lot of pain here's a crummy reward.

Oh and I agree the whole everything ever was jasmine's doing doesn't quite work out for me either. Best I guess we can do is say Jasmine and Skip were evil, so it's possible both were just lying.

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Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:32 PM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile: And I'm sorry, but it makes me head hurt to even try to understand and fit all the puzzle pieces together to have had this come about. Ugh.

It's just one big flimsy retcon. Jasmine 'manipulated' events - how vague can you get?

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Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:22 PM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded: It's just one big flimsy retcon. Jasmine 'manipulated' events - how vague can you get?

First, just to be clear: I love Joss. I love everything he's touched (that I've seen). Okay? :smile:

Now, one thing I've noticed about his work on Buffy, and Angel is that there are a number of times where he puts something into the story with no apparent reason. Personally - and this is completely my opinion - he doesn't know why it's there when he puts it in. He comes up with the justification afterwards, later, when he thinks that the time is right.

Now, for me, this isn't usually a complaint. However, there have been times - such as this - when I just felt it wasn't really handled very well. :disappointed:

Sounds like I'm not the only one. :smile:

Rabit

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Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:05 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

I buy that Connor was Angel's reward for completing the trial, but I refuse to believe that just about everything that happened on Angel's show was just leading up to Jasmine. I say "nay nay."

Simon: You...you came for us. Mal: You're on my crew. Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me. Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this? -Safe

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Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:19 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat: I buy that Connor was Angel's reward for completing the trial, but I refuse to believe that just about everything that happened on Angel's show was just leading up to Jasmine. I say "nay nay."

I agree... I thought that Jasmine was the result of Cordy mistakenly accepting that whole 'higher power scam' I was never clear on all of that... but when she came back to earth she was 'wrong' and her 'hooking up' w/Connor was clearly wrong and all that badness led to Jasmine...

or at least that was my impression did Joss ever really explain it in DVD commentary?

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Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:24 PM

JEWEL

Quote:
Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat: I buy that Connor was Angel's reward for completing the trial, but I refuse to believe that just about everything that happened on Angel's show was just leading up to Jasmine. I say "nay nay."

Well, just because a big evil takes credit for something doesn't make it true, right? I personally love it when the writers don't answer those questions for sure. There really is no proof that Jasmine was able to manipulate everything to such a degree that she was able to be "born" into this world. Maybe (and more likely, IMO) she was just an opportunist and took advantage of a happy accident or two.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:32 AM

HAWAIIANSGIRL

I think it when darla was still half human you know

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Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:05 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by jewel: took advantage of a happy accident or two.

Joy of Painting rules all.

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