ANGELUS ARCANUM

what is the deal with doyle

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Thursday, December 2, 2004 13:17
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VIEWED: 8761
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Monday, October 11, 2004 3:35 PM

EST120


okay, i have ben watching angel from the beginning in reruns on TNT and i have gotten past the point in season 1 where:

Select to view spoiler:



doyle sacrifices himself to save the other half-blood demons (and angel) from the light weapon. my question is, does anyone know why his character was killed off so quickly? he only was in nine episodes. is this because the writers felt the character was not very interesting? did they really want to bring in wes that badly? were they not sure where to take the doyle-cordelia arc?



any insight would be appreciated!


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Monday, October 11, 2004 4:28 PM

BLACKSHAMROCK5


I think they were just trying to shake up the viewers and say "you never know who's next" which they did very well, but I could be completely wrong

Shamrock

You put the ring on and I'll stake ya. It'll be fun!-Doyle

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Monday, October 11, 2004 4:31 PM

RABIT


Well, there are a lot of versions of what happened, from what I understand. The official line was that Joss and Co. planned to kill him from the start as a motivator, a way to show Angel that you have to be willing to sacrifice to fight the good fight, etc.

Unfortunately, the actor (Glenn Quinn, http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0703849/), died of an overdose of heroin, which fueled the rumor mill that he was dropped due to drugs, not getting along with the rest of the crew, etc. As far as I know, though, none of that was substantiated.

To be honest, it doesn't matter to me. The story was wonderfully and powerfully done, and I'm really not worried about why it was done. But that's just me.

Rabit

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Monday, October 11, 2004 4:51 PM

ROCKETJOCK


There's been a number of statements made by Joss and others on this subject. In a nutshell, it was planned from the beginning that Doyle would die early in the first season, both to provide a "shock factor", and to emphasise the dangers inherent in Angel's mission. Also,to a lesser degree, it was a way to add some depth to Cordelia's character by making her the recipient of the PTB's visions.

My daughter Angel, who had early on decided to hate the whole series because it had stolen her name, became addicted in reruns. When our viewing schedule became interrupted because of a recent move, we filled the cable-installation gap by buying a season one box set. Despite knowing Doyle's eventual fate from out-of-sequence episodes from later seasons, she was still moved to tears by Doyle's sacrifice. She hates it when a show I've recommended does that...

"Hermanos! The Devil has built a robot! Andale!" -- Numero Cinco

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Monday, October 11, 2004 4:54 PM

EMBERS


gossip also had it that the actor was showing up drunk and/or on drugs on the set...so he was written off the show sooner than originally planned.
I don't know if that is true, I do know he died of an over-dose

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 12:40 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Rabit:

Unfortunately, the actor (Glenn Quinn, http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0703849/), died of an overdose of heroin, which fueled the rumor mill that he was dropped due to drugs, not getting along with the rest of the crew, etc. As far as I know, though, none of that was substantiated.



Glenn Quinn was very close friends with David Boreanaz - a fact that David has mentioned many times in interviews.

Joss has said many times that Doyle's death was planned early, in fact he intended to do the same thing earlier on Buffy by including Jesse in the opening credits of the first two episodes but was unable to (presumably for contractual/monetary reasons).

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:09 AM

RABIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Glenn Quinn was very close friends with David Boreanaz - a fact that David has mentioned many times in interviews.

Joss has said many times that Doyle's death was planned early, in fact he intended to do the same thing earlier on Buffy by including Jesse in the opening credits of the first two episodes but was unable to (presumably for contractual/monetary reasons).

Hence my statement that they were rumors, and that they were not substantiated.

Personally, I believe Joss planned to kill Doyle. No dispute there. Things were just too well set to not believe it. It did feel a little rushed, to me, as though there was more that they had to tell but didn't have time, which makes me inclined to believe that they did it earlier than they originally planned (as was already mentioned).

Rabit

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:48 AM

REDCLAIRE


All I can say about this is that I was heartbroken when he died. He was my favorite new character of that season, both Buffy and Angel. In fact I was so upset about it, I don't think I finished watching that season. I actually had hoped that he would be brought back in later episodes, but only recently learned of the actor's death, quite tragic.

I assume that Joss met him while working on Roseanne. Can anyone confirm that?

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:01 AM

RABIT


Quote:

Originally posted by RedClaire:
All I can say about this is that I was heartbroken when he died. He was my favorite new character of that season, both Buffy and Angel. In fact I was so upset about it, I don't think I finished watching that season.

I have to say that I agree with you that it was powerfully upsetting, but I went the other direction - it drew me further into the show in the hopes of seeing them make his sacrifice worthwhile...

Rabit

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 8:50 AM

SHADOWVESSEL


I never knew the real story behind that, either. I'd heard the rumors just like everyone else, but I try not to read too much into those. It's possible that since the character was either drunk or talking about drinking most of the time that the rumors spread from there.

Anyway, I really don't have anything concrete to add, I just thought it was cool as hell that there was a blog on Doyle and wanted to join in. He was the coolest character from season 1, Angel was second to him. So that's saying a lot for me.

(Gorramn Double Post)
"I'll be in my bunk."

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 8:50 AM

SHADOWVESSEL


I never knew the real story behind that, either. I'd heard the rumors just like everyone else, but I try not to read too much into those. It's possible that since the character was either drunk or talking about drinking most of the time that the rumors spread from there.

Anyway, I really don't have anything concrete to add, I just thought it was cool as hell that there was a blog on Doyle and wanted to join in. He was the coolest character from season 1, Angel was second to him. So that's saying a lot for me.

(Gorramn Double Post)
"I'll be in my bunk."

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:18 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by ShadowVessel:

Anyway, I really don't have anything concrete to add, I just thought it was cool as hell that there was a blog on Doyle and wanted to join in. He was the coolest character from season 1, Angel was second to him. So that's saying a lot for me.



He's my favourite Buffyverse character hands down.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:35 AM

SHADOWVESSEL


Awesome.

(Gorramn Double Post)
"I'll be in my bunk."

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:35 AM

SHADOWVESSEL


Awesome.

(Gorramn Double Post)
"I'll be in my bunk."

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:46 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by est120:
okay, i have been watching angel from the beginning in reruns on TNT and i have gotten past the point in season 1 where...

I can't even put it in your quote. I loved Doyle and even started writing a fan fic that included his ghost as a sort of spirit guide. Yeah, pretty sappy - it never got anywhere. It would have been nice if Joss had found a way to re-implement Doyle before Glenn Quinn's untimely death. That was one hell of a shock to the system. I've often thought that if JW could bring Buffy back twice, then bringing Doyle back shouldn't be so difficult. Then again, if he had brought Doyle back as the demon element, would we have had Lorn? Plus, there's the effect it had on Angel, making things a bit more dire and serious. I liked how they worked the Doyle video in at the end. Nice homage.

I draw...therefore I am.
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 12:06 PM

GROUNDED


The alternate reality ep Birthday was absolutely perfect for a comeback but all we got was a little video clip again :(

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:16 PM

ZEEK


I was always annoyed by Doyle. Because I felt like he was a Whistler knock off from Season 2 of Angel. I think Whistler returning to help guide Angel would have been a great addition to the show. Sadly we never see him again.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:18 PM

TOMANTA


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
I was always annoyed by Doyle. Because I felt like he was a Whistler knock off from Season 2 of Angel. I think Whistler returning to help guide Angel would have been a great addition to the show. Sadly we never see him again.



I think that was the original plan, but it didn't happen for some reason or another.

"FOX! Where the shit hits the fans." - Tim Minear

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:20 PM

GROUNDED


Indeed. The original shooting script for City Of has Whistler instead of Doyle. The character of Doyle was created after Glenn Quinn read for Whistler. As for him being a knock-off, well perhaps in the pilot there are similarities, and not much of his dialogue is altered, but I don't think it takes long before he blossoms into a character all of his own :)

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Monday, October 18, 2004 10:20 AM

CHOSEN1


I remeber when that happened. My roommate and I were both traumatized. As a matter of fact, I think I'm still a little bitter about it. Just imagine if they killed off Wash in the ninth episode. They'd have a riot on their hands.

"Curse your sudden, but inevitable betrayal"

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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:44 AM

GROUNDED


The difference being that they would have lost 1 of 9 and not 1 of 3...

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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:35 AM

RABIT


Quote:

Originally posted by chosen1:
I remeber when that happened. My roommate and I were both traumatized. As a matter of fact, I think I'm still a little bitter about it. Just imagine if they killed off Wash in the ninth episode. They'd have a riot on their hands.

While I would obviously hate it if they killed off any of the characters in Firefly, I would totally understand. They live dangerous lives. People in their line of work will most likely have short life spans. Add into the equation the fact that the academy is after River and willing to kill anyone who gets in their way... Well, it would not surprise me. Again, I don't want it to happen, but it would make sense.

Same with Doyle. People die, and, while I loved Doyle, I definitely think that the death of the character was well done, well handled, and excellently conceived.

But then I've always been a little weird...

Rabit

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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 5:04 AM

EST120


Quote:

Originally posted by Rabit:
While I would obviously hate it if they killed off any of the characters in Firefly, I would totally understand. They live dangerous lives. People in their line of work will most likely have short life spans.



i wonder what book meant by his line in "the message". jayne asks if book is going to say a prayer for him when he (jayne) dies and book responds by saying something to the effect that jayne will outlive them all. is this just stating that jayne has enough "street smarts" to survive? perhaps it should be "ship smarts" or "space smarts".

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Tuesday, October 19, 2004 5:17 AM

RABIT


Quote:

Originally posted by est120:
i wonder what book meant by his line in "the message". jayne asks if book is going to say a prayer for him when he (jayne) dies and book responds by saying something to the effect that jayne will outlive them all. is this just stating that jayne has enough "street smarts" to survive? perhaps it should be "ship smarts" or "space smarts".

"I'm sure you'll be around long after we're all...", and I can't hear the rest because Jayne's getting loud mouthed at River...

Hmm... Good catch. Joss doesn't usually let things like that go in that don't have a reason. You could have something, there.

Comically, I was thinking that Jayne would probably be the first to be lost, but now you've made me rethink that. Thanks!

Rabit

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Friday, November 26, 2004 7:20 AM

CRAZYDOG7


Loved Doyle my absolute favorite charecter thats all I know. Season 1 is by far my favorite and Doyle had a large part to play.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 10:40 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Crazydog7:
Loved Doyle my absolute favorite charecter thats all I know. Season 1 is by far my favorite and Doyle had a large part to play.



Yes!

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Wednesday, December 1, 2004 11:55 AM

CAPTAINCDC


Quote:

Originally posted by Crazydog7:
Loved Doyle my absolute favorite charecter thats all I know. Season 1 is by far my favorite and Doyle had a large part to play.




Loved Doyle. Loved season 1. But with the addition of Wes, the series got better and better. Not to disparage the first two seasons because they were both excellent, but seasons 3 & 4 were the jewels of the series IMO.

Ka is a wheel, time but a face on the water.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2004 12:15 PM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincdc:
Not to disparage the first two seasons because they were both excellent, but seasons 3 & 4 were the jewels of the series IMO.



Argh! S4 perpetrates so many continuity errors and is filled with half-assed soap-opera :( S3 is great though, despite the weirdness of Cordy and C/A at the end.

On the topic of Doyle, I think it was a brave move to kill him off, but I think they did it a little too early.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2004 1:49 PM

CAPTAINCDC


You and I are never going to agree on S4. But on Doyle, I would have been tempted to agree with you if Wes had not come in right after Doyle died. Wes is the best and I think it worked perfectly killing Doyle off when they did. It was right when people and characters were starting to connect with him, and of course it made Angel a little standoffish to accepting help which led up to him firing them all during season 2.

Ka is a wheel, time but a face on the water.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 2:26 AM

GROUNDED


You can't argue with continuity errors ;)

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 6:07 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Rabit:
Quote:

Originally posted by chosen1:
I remeber when that happened. My roommate and I were both traumatized. As a matter of fact, I think I'm still a little bitter about it. Just imagine if they killed off Wash in the ninth episode. They'd have a riot on their hands.

While I would obviously hate it if they killed off any of the characters in Firefly, I would totally understand. They live dangerous lives. People in their line of work will most likely have short life spans. Add into the equation the fact that the academy is after River and willing to kill anyone who gets in their way... Well, it would not surprise me. Again, I don't want it to happen, but it would make sense.

Same with Doyle. People die, and, while I loved Doyle, I definitely think that the death of the character was well done, well handled, and excellently conceived.

But then I've always been a little weird...

Rabit


nooooooooo! They can't kill anyone on Firefly. I couldn't see the show without any one of them. I'm trying to think of the show without any one of them and it just seems like there would be a huge hole without all of them.

on this idea


oh and Wes is way cooler than Doyle ever was in my opinion.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 7:46 AM

GROUNDED


Double post :(

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 7:46 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
oh and Wes is way cooler than Doyle ever was in my opinion.



In Season 1? I think not.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 9:58 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
oh and Wes is way cooler than Doyle ever was in my opinion.



In Season 1? I think not.


Sure he was. He was the bumbling guy who always had his heart in the right place. Every once in a while he had a cool momment too.

Plus he had the best dancing scene ever. That was hilarious.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 11:19 AM

CAPTAINCDC


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
oh and Wes is way cooler than Doyle ever was in my opinion.



In Season 1? I think not.



I have to go with Zeek on this one. Wes is the best. He's one of my favorite characters of all time on any show. Great work by Alexis throughout (not to slight Doyle).

Ka is a wheel, time but a face on the water.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 11:43 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL


i'm with crazdog7 on this one. Doyle was the reason I watched Angel. It took a long time for me to get back into it after he died. I knew why they did it, it just sucked that it had to happen so quickly. But plot movement must happen.

www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 1:17 PM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincdc:
I have to go with Zeek on this one. Wes is the best. He's one of my favorite characters of all time on any show. Great work by Alexis throughout (not to slight Doyle).



Yes he is a great character, probably the most naturally well developed of any Buffyverse character, but it took him a long time to get here. Doyle was just pure distilled character - instantly likeable and with, as Cordy puts it, 'hidden depths'. I just think he had so much more mileage in him - 9 episodes is too harsh :(

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