ANGELUS ARCANUM

THE GIRL IN QUESTION - Discussion

POSTED BY: ANGELDOVE
UPDATED: Saturday, August 29, 2009 05:31
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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 8:11 PM

ANGELDOVE


I just wanted to hear what people thought about this episode. I have to say I was disappointed, I just really didn't connect with this episode like I have with the rest over this past season. I almost felt like they shouldn't have bothered doing an episode which centered around Buffy, since Sarah was unable to return. I mean we all know the blonde was a Buffy double, so to me it just had no impact. This episode didn't resolve anything about the 'who does Buffy really love' question, not that I needed an answer, but why spend an entire episode rehashing it when it just ends in the same place it started? Sure they talk about moving on like she is, but weren't they pretty much doing that already, and are we really to believe that if Buffy returned wanting to get back with one of them, either would turn her down? I know I am probably being overly harsh on this episode, its just with three eps remaining, I believe its natural to have higher expectations.

My favorite part did involve the cookie dough comment, I do enjoy references back to earlier eps as well as to BTVS eps. But there was an opportunity I felt was overlooked in the Angel/Spike competition bantering... When Angel says that sleeping together didn't make it a relationship and Spike says it does if you do it enough...I thought a good add on to this would be Spike commenting on the fact that Angel and Buffy only slept together the one time, and Angel could respond by informing Spike of that day he and Buffy spent together in bed (I will remember you), but end the comment with, "she just doesn't remember it" which could only lead to Spike pointing out how bad that sounded, and Angel realizing it after the fact. However I have a tendancy to rewrite moments of the shows in my head, not that it didn't work the way originally written.


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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 9:58 PM

11THHOUR


You made some excellent observations. The Buffy related part of the storyline was not fully satisfactory, but that is bound to happen when the actual Buffy isn't there. Since the series is winding down to the end, there is a feeling that the Buffy/Angel/Spike relationships need a kind of overview... with some kind of reckoning. The whole backstory parts also gave Darla and Drusilla cameo appearances... too brief and oddly disconcerting...

So it's the end of the series and sometimes stories suffer when they are 'built' to serve a certain purpose. I got the feeling that important characters from the past were inserted into a story for a revisit and 'farewell'. But the method just didn't flow very well. The story seemed to be trying for a 'bouncy' ironic feel, but it didn't hit the right notes. But I'll still take this attempt over the heavy, and sometimes tedious, tones of the final episodes of Buffy.

The Fred impersonation by Illyria was perverse fun though! Poor Wes, he just gets tortured in new and fun ways as time goes on...

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

Angel: "I helped save the world you know."
Spike: (sigh) "Like I haven't..."
Angel: "Yeah. But I've done it a lot more."

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 3:19 AM

MSCKAREN


This ep didn't satisfy my craving for the story arc that JW does so well but it sure made me laugh. Know JW there were clues in this ep of something big (and probably ugly) to come in the future.

Really enjoyed the Fred/Illyria changeovers. Wow! Amy did a great job. It appears Illyria is becoming jealous of the love people had for her "vessel".

Missed AB, though...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Appears they've canceled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 4:34 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by msckaren:

Really enjoyed the Fred/Illyria changeovers. Wow! Amy did a great job.



Well, first I have to say that everything w/Wes, Fred & her parents was perfection...
It was so right on so many levels...
and so freaky in so many ways...
I was thrilled!

In fact, over-all I liked the episode more than many people on-line seemed to do:

I kind of loved having Angel & Spike chasing their tails...
or chasing Buffy's tail...
whatever.
But the Buffy wasn't very convincing
(that bad hair and bad dancing was worse than the fake Buffy in Angel's bed a few months ago)
And it bothered me to see Spike talking about 'putting Buffy in a box', he wasn't trying to do that S7 of BtVS...true, he wasn't really letting go (following her on her date w/Wood) but he didn't want to use mind control on her! grrr argh...
But I did always think that if Spike & Angel ever saw Buffy they would find her in the arms of another man! LOL
So I was proved right in that regard!


It was very funny...
Great seeing Darla, Dru and Andrew!
And that awful jacket on Angel reminded me of the masked Mexican westler's outfits...

I loved Angel saying 'Concurrently? You never let US do that!' LOL!

Oh, and how cool were Spike & Dru in the B&W flashback of them in Italy in the 1950's! OMG! I want a screen cap of that!

But I just had a weird fore-shadowing thought: remember when Lilah wore glasses and her hair in braids? And how Wesley wanted her even more like that?
How long before Wes can resist Illyria in her Fred suit? Seems that just knowing that Illyria can do the Fred look would seduce Wesley! So is it foreshadowed???????
I don't want any spoilers, I avoid them like the plague...so please do NOT spoil me...I'm just wondering, and a little scared for our Wesley.

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 6:30 AM

DELIA


I loved the Fred/Illyria and Wes stuff -- I've enjoyed that arc if for no other reason it's given those two actors a chance to shine. And I loved seeing Roger and Trish again.

And watching Spike and Angle bond was kind of fun -- especially when they were comparing who had saved the world more -- but I kept thinking, "OK, we're in a little holding pattern before they hit us with the big important stuff in the last two episode." I mean, a little more fall out about Angel handing over the baby would have been nice. I think I would have reponded better to this episode if had come BEFORE the previous one.

And while we're on the subject of Angel acting without reprecussions, when does he get in trouble for violating his friends' memories (over Connor). I mean, Willow does her mind tinkering and her whole world falls apart. Angel does the same thing and, Wesley mopes.

Finally, what part of Rome were they supposed to be in? I'm sorry, I've been to Rome, and I NEVER saw the streets (stradas!) that empty.

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 7:01 AM

GORRAMREAVERS


Loved the episode.
Great to see Andrew again...and Spike's uncomfortable-but-not-so-much-to-say-anything look after Andrew hugged him.
Angel and Spike on a moped (Vespa...whatever)
Wes and Fred...great stuff.

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 7:25 AM

3OF19


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
Oh, and how cool were Spike & Dru in the B&W flashback of them in Italy in the 1950's! OMG! I want a screen cap of that!



No problem:



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Thursday, May 6, 2004 7:35 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by 3of19:
Quote:

No problem:
(images removed to avoid wasting bandwidth...see above)



OMG! THANK YOU SO MUCH!
These are beautiful, absolutely perfect!

I am so happy now!

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 11:26 AM

KARENKAY99


i don't know, i kind-a liked it.
i laughed out loud several times and there were a few 'oh, sh*t' and 'oh my god' moments.
like every time amy switched from illyria to fred or back. that woman can act. i hope all the hollywood folks see her and she gets her pick of what to do next.
and the bomb. i didn't expect that and was dyin' laughin' at spike and his coat.
the buffy stuff left some wanting but we knew it would. save it for a movie. and her with another vampire? what's with that girl?
i thought it was great to relax a bit and have fun with this show coz i think they're getting ready for some serious stuff. i'll have tissues handy.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 11:30 AM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by karenkay99:
... buffy ... with another vampire? what's with that girl?


They never said that 'The Immortal' was a vampire. Actually, I got the impression it was a tip of the hat to "Highlander" as the bartender made an offhand comment about 'keep your head'.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 12:23 PM

BIKISDAD


I thought "The Immortal" was an inside joke for fans of Ben Edlund's series, "The Tick". One episode of that show had a womanizing superhero by the same name who, ironically, died within the first five minutes of being introduced on the show.

"You should come over for dinner. My Mom's making her famous phone call to the Chinese place."

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 12:43 PM

TIGERLILY


i thought it was a tick reference too.

did anyone notice that marsters was shirtless, and DB wasn't? did he look pudgy?

is it me, or do actors have essentially only two jobs: show up knowing your lines, and stay looking the way you did when you got hired?

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 12:47 PM

DARKJESTER


I was thinking of Anne Rice's Ramses when they mentioned the Immortal.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 12:54 PM

BIKISDAD


I just immediately thought of Edlund. Since he wrote for both shows, it's the kind of thing they would do at ME.

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 1:18 PM

SUCCATASH


I really enjoyed the scene when Angel and Spike are fighting demons in slow motion with the Italian music in the background, and then they start punching each other.


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Thursday, May 6, 2004 1:26 PM

BIKISDAD


That WAS good - especially the looks on their faces when they started hitting each other. Hey, is my hearing really bad, or was that Dean Martin singing while they fought?

"If the apocalypse comes, beep me!"

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 1:47 PM

SBWATCHER


tigerLily,

I thought the same thing. It looked like DB has put on some weight, and that scene confirmed it! Didn't the same thing happen to Nicolas Brendan?

As far as the ep was concerned, it, like Time Bomb , was a fine stand-alone episode, but I feel they've been waisted since there's only 2 left now. I thought they'd take several eps to close it out. Also, I know a lot of people like him, but any episode, Buffy or Angel, with Andrew in it is a HUGE bummer for me. My triumverate of annoying characters is Andrew, Eve, and Chris (from Charmed). But I love Dru ("Will you hold my head under the water?")

Finally, didn't the Tick guy co-write this episode?

"What's sanguine mean again?"

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 2:09 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1


I felt the same way, i was very disapointed with this episode...normally i would just shrugg it off, but because it was one of the last...i was very very sad.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Here's to Jayne, the box dropping man-ape-gone-wrong-thing"
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 2:32 PM

JERSEYBROWNCOAT


Keep in mind that Joss and everyone involved were pretty certain that season six would happen until *very* shortly before this episode was in production. If memory serves, they were filming either ep. 18 or 19 of the season when WB told the crew they'd have until the end of the season to wrap everything up. Extra season didn't happen, and to my knowledge Joss pretty much figured he'd end the season as he was originally going to end it. Consider the end of season 5 unaltered, for better or for worse.

Personally, I'm glad he's not rushing anything to a conclusion. If there's anything that Firefly's taught us, there are always other media to explore when a TV show is cancelled.

As for the episode, hi-larious, but I was looking for some follow-up to Andrew's comment earlier this season about Team Angel falling out of the Council's graces on account of the whole W&H employment. Considering it's the last we'll likely see of any of the Watcher's Council in the show...not even that really, just the parting words from the last time they met Andrew. It kinda called for follow-up, but I digress. Probably would've been just one more dangling plot thread 'till next season.

Unrelated: Loved the poorly-thought-out car chase.

EDITED TO ADD:

Many thanks here for the screencaps, btw - The bottom one is currently my desktop background.

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 3:28 PM

BIKISDAD


msckaren,

I agree completely about Amy. Usually, when actors do the dual/multiple personality thing, it just seems like the same person reading different lines. Amy did the best job of BEING two different characters that I've ever seen by anybody. Really amazing. My jaw just dropped open several times during her performance.

"I'm sure I mentioned that there could be dire consequences."

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 4:06 PM

ALIENZOOKEEPER


Is it me, or did that 'As you wish' from Illyria remind anyone of The Princess Bride? AYW meant 'I love you' there, which brings up all sorts of possibilities. I agree, Illyria is a little jealous of Fred.

On the other hand, maybe that was simply meant to be ominous. Dunno.

Hey, why don't Fred's parents know about her death!? I mean, WTF! The deserve to know, hell, they need to know, and they know about demons (right?), so they can handle it, i guess. That just seemed cruel...

vince

"I could teach her to fly."
"Yeah. Everyone should be able to fly."
Memories of Guns by Jade
http://www.geocities.com/jadethe2nd/ff_memoriesofguns.html

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 7:17 PM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE


Quote:

Originally posted by AlienZookeeper:
Is it me, or did that 'As you wish' from Illyria remind anyone of The Princess Bride? AYW meant 'I love you' there, which brings up all sorts of possibilities. I agree, Illyria is a little jealous of Fred.



Yeah...either jealous or horny.

Quote:

On the other hand, maybe that was simply meant to be ominous. Dunno.

Hey, why don't Fred's parents know about her death!? I mean, WTF! The deserve to know, hell, they need to know, and they know about demons (right?), so they can handle it, i guess. That just seemed cruel...



Cruel, yes. But I still wouldn't cross Illyria if I were Wes, especially when there are innocent, (mostly) defenseless people right there who she could easily hurt in retaliation.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 1:14 AM

DELIA


Quote:

Originally posted by AlienZookeeper:
Hey, why don't Fred's parents know about her death!? I mean, WTF! The deserve to know, hell, they need to know, and they know about demons (right?), so they can handle it, i guess. That just seemed cruel...



Yes, but I could see where Wes would keep finding excuses to put that call off. "Hi, I know we only met that once but I need to tell you that an ancient demon goddess has taken over your daughter's body and she's dead, and her's soul's gone, though of course this demon is still using her body so you can't come claim it and there won't be a funeral." Wes is too consumed by his own greif, as is anyone else in the position to make that call (or, possibly, trip to Texas).

Then to have her walk in just as he was going to tell them, so convincingly Fred, obviously threw hin for a loop. And once it got started, that sort of thing is hard to stop. And I agree that they need to know, but I can see how it didn't happen.

BUT, if Fred and Mom and Dad are close, why haven't they noticed that she stopped calling herself.

For the record, I don't think there's a parent on earth who could "handle" finding out that what happened to Fred had happened to their daughter.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 4:43 AM

DTT


Quote:

Originally posted by AlienZookeeper:
Is it me, or did that 'As you wish' from Illyria remind anyone of The Princess Bride? AYW meant 'I love you' there, which brings up all sorts of possibilities.



I laughed and pointed that out to my girlfriend. Especially interesting when you consider TPB hero's name was Wesley.

"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:30 AM

STILLSHINY


Originally posted by dtt:
Quote:

Originally posted by AlienZookeeper:
Is it me, or did that 'As you wish' from Illyria remind anyone of The Princess Bride? AYW meant 'I love you' there, which brings up all sorts of possibilities.



Thought that!

Quote:

I laughed and pointed that out to my girlfriend. Especially interesting when you consider TPB hero's name was Wesley.



Didn't think that!!! Wow. Funny

My wife actually admitted to liking this episode. It was so stinking funny. Yeah, she don't go for the dark stuff. It was so not serious, except the Was / Illyra moments.

Favorite bits

When Spike wakes from torture saying "Bloody Hell" - so in character

Time for another pony ride - Naughty Dru

could've done without the Buffy-sidestory

I love the Spike and Angel banter.

But now I'm ready to get serious. It's Angel's finest hour. Bring it on.

"May the sun on your back always be from another dimension"


"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:45 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by JerseyBrowncoat:
Personally, I'm glad he's not rushing anything to a conclusion. If there's anything that Firefly's taught us, there are always other media to explore when a TV show is cancelled.



I really agree with you! I never thought that Joss would have Buffy 'ride off into the sunset with either Vampire' and I think it is nuts that so many fans seemed to expect Joss to end the show with Buffy chosing one or the other of them.

Joss is a very young man, and he has no reason to 'end' anything, he can always continue the stories of the Buffyverse, if not on TV then in movies, if not in movies then in comics or video games... There is a lot of media out there that Joss can play with, and he has said he has a lot more stories to tell.

I'm not that worried about SMG's unavailability over the last year...I'm sure she'll want to work w/Joss again, and I am REALLY not worried about David's interview comments because I think he is going to be having plenty of free time in the future (JMPO), and of course so many of the others from the show have said time and time again that they are ready willing and able to sign onto any project that Joss is involved in.

edited to add:
------------------------------------------------
Steve DeKnight says:
(Thu May 6 07:44:00 2004)

Ho ho ho. Just a quick swoop by since I see that little scamp Drew
promised I'd be here. Bad, Drew, bad!

Gotta say, folks, I'm a little surprised at some of the reaction to
tonight's episode. Not sure how anyone got the impression that our
intent was to poke the hard core fans right in the peeper, but I can
tell you that was never our intent. All we wanted to do is address
the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle one last time in a light-hearted
manner. And that bit at the end about movin' on? Directed at no one
but the characters saying the words. We, the people actually working
on the show for many long, hard years, just wanted to use our last
chance to tell a fun story and to show that yes, love can make you
shemp if you let it.

To address a few other random comments: Don't know what you've
heard, but Sarah was never going to play an active part in this ep.
Not from the conception, the breaking of the story, or the writing
of it. As for Tom Lenk (Andrew), I love the guy and I'm very happy
he was in the show. We had talked about Dawn doing those scenes, but
Michelle wasn't available.

Not defending anything here. Just giving you the facts. And
honestly, no matter what we do in these last few episodes, somebody
out there's not gonna be happy. So we'll just do our best. Hate it,
love it – it's still gonna end how it's gonna end. And if you think
you're gonna miss it, imagine how we feel. Nah, on second thought,
don't. It'll just make you cry.

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 7:33 AM

CAPTAINCDC


Quote:

Originally posted by bikisdad:
That WAS good - especially the looks on their faces when they started hitting each other. Hey, is my hearing really bad, or was that Dean Martin singing while they fought?

"If the apocalypse comes, beep me!"




It was Dean Martin. I think the song was Take Me In Your Arms. The looks on their faces when they started hitting each other was priceless. What a great scene.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 7:39 AM

CAPTAINCDC


I should probably be ashamed that I noticed this, but did anyone else notice that the very funny and really hot head honcho of the Rome W&H was the same actress that played Areola Canasta in the movie If Looks Could Kill: Carole Davis or Carole Raphaelle Davis as she was credited on Angel. Just some more useless trivia clogging up my brain.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 12:21 PM

ANGELDOVE


The Italian Wolfram & Hart girl!
Beautiful girl, but did she have to be so irritating? I know it isn't her fault, the script is written that way, but every scene she was in I fast-forwarded through as to avoid the horror.

However, upon second viewing, I did find the episode more interesting. As happens a lot with me.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:31 AM

MOZZY


Can somebody please upload the Vespa chase on YouTube--I can't find it anywhere and it's so damn funny! :o)

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