ANGELUS ARCANUM

No comments on "Shells"?

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Monday, March 15, 2004 09:41
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5880
PAGE 1 of 1

Thursday, March 4, 2004 6:56 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Was "Angel" pre-empted for B-ball nationwide (except D.C.), or does no one have anything to say?

Looks like Wes's un-conventional love life might have a new and appropriately weird focus.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 4, 2004 7:05 AM

SLOWSMURF


Yep, knowing this show that could easily go either way.

I thought it was quite a good episode, they took it in an unexpected way for me at least.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 4, 2004 7:18 AM

ASTRIANA


That might be what this thread is referring to:

"Damn You College Basketball! DAMN YOU!"
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=10&t=4152

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 4, 2004 7:20 AM

STILLSHINY


Yep, I was all about it. Been waiting all week. Like the darker side of Wes. Definately a twist. All the references to our connection to things was giving me "Objects in Space" flashbacks. I was just starting to like Fred. I'm also reading transcripts and just started Season 2 so I'm just getting to know Gunn & Lorne. I'm so hooked on this rather Dark & Shiny show.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 4, 2004 9:05 AM

KURUKAMI


Very, very interesting. I suspected how Wes would decide when Illyria popped up in the lab, and his final choice didn't surprise me too much. Wes is descending the same moral staircase that Angel and Spike are trying to climb, slipping further into darkness, cynicism, and despair as the show goes on.

The six remaining episodes before season's end are no doubt going to be ugly as our little Angel family tears itself apart. Fred's husked, Wes's trying to resist darkness while being drawn to Fred's image, Gunn's the senior partners' bitch and got stabbed by Wes, Cordelia's dead, Connor's mindwiped and in his own happy little world, Lorne's seriously doubting his own abilities... and yet Angel and Spike are becoming, if not friends, then allies.

I'm glad the season is moving back towards plot arcs and is less episodic. Much more intriguing that way.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 5, 2004 3:17 AM

DRAKON


It was not interrupted here in my neck of the woods of California. Wife taped it and we watched the tape the next day. Good episode, I thought, and I was really expecting to hate it.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 5, 2004 3:34 AM

DRAKON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kurukami:
Very, very interesting. I suspected how Wes would decide when Illyria popped up in the lab, and his final choice didn't surprise me too much. Wes is descending the same moral staircase that Angel and Spike are trying to climb, slipping further into darkness, cynicism, and despair as the show goes on.




Not so sure here. Well, maybe I am kinda pollyannaish, but I see some hope.

A couple things of note.

Select to view spoiler:


1) Illyria mentions she knew the "Wolf, Ram and Hart back when they were barely above vampires.
2) Illyria still has some of Fred's memories.
3) Illyria has lost her world, her armies and any sense of status in this new human world. And has to learn how to operate in her new surroundings.



Now when Angel and crew took over WR&H's LA branch, they got 1) Gunn's legal expertese, 2) Wes' Every Books (tm) 3) Fred's lab and 4) All the other resources, the orbiting laser satellite, strike teams, etc. as well as 5) Conner's new life.

So far WR&H have taken back Gunn's legal knowledge. Fred is dead. But Wes still has his books, they still have all the other resources, including the lab, and Gunn got his legal stuff back, without the risk of WR&H taking it.

Select to view spoiler:



Plus, they have a very ancient major demon who at one time was more powerful than the senior partners. A major demon Wes appears to be teaching how to be human, how to be good, how not to be a threat to everyone else.



So why do they need the senior partners again? It looks like all the strings are gonna get cut, one way or the other. And Angel and crew will own at least the LA branch free and clear.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 5, 2004 3:46 AM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE


Quote:

Originally posted by Drakon:

So why do they need the senior partners again? It looks like all the strings are gonna get cut, one way or the other. And Angel and crew will own at least the LA branch free and clear.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"



I highly doubt that. W&H doesn't work that way. Granted, none of them signed those "for all eternity" contracts that Lilah and Holling did, but no way will the senior partners just let them dow whatever they want.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 5, 2004 6:47 AM

KURUKAMI


Particularly since

Select to view spoiler:


it would appear, at least according to TVTome's summary of the next ep to be aired (at http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-12/epid-2
76674
/ ), that Lindsey's back soon. Apparently the Senior Partners were not as pissed off at him as it first appeared.

Anyone else getting a sneaking suspicion that what Lindsey was doing in the downstairs summoning room had to do with releasing Illyria's sarcophagus from the Deepest Well?




History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 5, 2004 7:44 AM

HJERMSTED


Shells was a great episode that really had me engaged... laughing/crying.

However I am SO SICK of cheesy pop songs laid over melancholy montages. Not sure why the producers chose to do this at the end of the episode. Yes, the characters are sad and things have changed... but wouldn't some nice moody original music from the show's composer have been a better choice?

Is there some clause in the WB's standard contract that requires pop songs to appear in each and every one of their shows? It's becoming insipid.

Unless Joss wrote the song (ala BTVS: Conversations with Dead People)... stop using licensed pop songs to convey your point, please! It's cheesy as hell and I don't want to associate the excellent Mutant Enemy shows with cheese.

mattro

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 5, 2004 9:31 AM

PHOENIXSHIP


I have to agree. While I have no problem with the song itself, I thought it was a strange choice to end the episode. I prefer the show's theme music because it's always so damn fitting.

I gotta say, the last two eps have not had the emotional impact on me they should have. Maybe it's because I caught wind via spoilders of Fred's death, but I was really expecting it.

What I wasn't expecting was Illyria's change of heart, her sudden interest in humanity and her attachment to Wesley. Neither me nor my wife really bought into it. As I told her, though, let it take us where Joss wants it to go. He's always come through for us. It'll be interesting to see where he takes it with the truncated schedule. I'm still holding out hope that the Tribune folks will pull a rabbit out of the hat.

What will become of Gunn? I can't imagine Wesley forgiving him, short of some mortal sacrifice on his part.

Please, why can't we stay?


"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 5, 2004 9:01 PM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by Hjermsted:
Shells was a great episode that really had me engaged... laughing/crying.



The character of Knox provided a rich source of comedy material for this ep! He was like a love struck schoolboy over his ressurected demon goddess. And she was the proper ice mistress right back.

Then there was Harmony's choice snide comments about Knox's girlie ways. Good stuff!!

Quote:

However I am SO SICK of cheesy pop songs laid over melancholy montages. Not sure why the producers chose to do this at the end of the episode. Yes, the characters are sad and things have changed... but wouldn't some nice moody original music from the show's composer have been a better choice?


Oh yeah... got that right. I think I audibly groaned when the sappy song started playing over the montage. That's also the kind of stuff that doesn't age well.

Quote:

Is there some clause in the WB's standard contract that requires pop songs to appear in each and every one of their shows? It's becoming insipid.


Perhaps the Warners Music division is making a 'compilation' album of songs on the WB shows. They need something represented from all. The title of the album could be, "Music to get all depressed by".

11thHour
__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 5, 2004 9:15 PM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenixship:
What I wasn't expecting was Illyria's change of heart, her sudden interest in humanity and her attachment to Wesley. Neither me nor my wife really bought into it. As I told her, though, let it take us where Joss wants it to go. He's always come through for us.



Illyria did seem to soften rather surprisingly and show willingness to be taught by a disgusting human. Could be just her own self interest after realizing that she's stuck in her 'shell' and her original world is destroyed. It's the common theme she and Wes share now. Could be VERY interesting...

Perhaps the fragments of Fred are also affecting Illyria. After all her confidence and bluster were removed, the 'Fred parts' may be influencing her now.

Or she's just playing an angle and is using Wes to achieve 'Take Over The World and Wipe Out the Humans, Plan B'.

I was moved though by Wes's obvious heartbreak when looking at Fred's physical body and remembering his lost love. The grief is so raw and recent, that he is willing to assist the being who was the instrument of Fred's death just to experience some echo of her.

Which, by the way, reminds me...

Fred's soul was burned up and totally obliterated in the fire's of Illyria's ressurection??!! Man... that is CRUEL. Not only was Fred killed, but her 'eternal' soul was wiped out of existence on top of it?!! She has been literally uncreated. That is hard core stuff there... even for Joss.

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, March 6, 2004 7:54 AM

LJOSALF


I would like to point out the opening of Hole in the World and the ending of Shells focus on Fred's journey to LA. Although they take place in the past, they are placed where they are in the storyline for a reason. Remember that Fred told her parents in the intro to Hole in the World that she was going to learn everything that was out there to learn and then she was going to figure out answers that nobody else had thought of before (wish I could quote the line but I no longer have the episode to refer to). At the end of Shells, Fred gets into the station wagon and begins her journey to LA--much as Illyria in her sarcophagus journeyed to LA from the Deeper Well. There is more to come for Fred either tragic or triumphant in the storyarc we are in now.

MHO, if--and it is indeed a big if--Fred returns in some way, shape or form, it will be from her own efforts not from being saved by the gang.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, March 6, 2004 8:57 PM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by ljosalf:
I would like to point out the opening of Hole in the World and the ending of Shells focus on Fred's journey to LA. Although they take place in the past, they are placed where they are in the storyline for a reason. Remember that Fred told her parents in the intro to Hole in the World that she was going to learn everything that was out there to learn and then she was going to figure out answers that nobody else had thought of before (wish I could quote the line but I no longer have the episode to refer to). At the end of Shells, Fred gets into the station wagon and begins her journey to LA--much as Illyria in her sarcophagus journeyed to LA from the Deeper Well. There is more to come for Fred either tragic or triumphant in the storyarc we are in now.



Excellent points. You are correct... there were little seeds sprinkled here and there that hint at possiblities that there is more than meets the eye concerning Fred's fate.

I was struck with how utterly final it has been pronouced that Miss Winnifred Berkle is no more, period. It's just that kind of finality that would make for a great setup for an amazing restoration of Fred... should it come to pass.

Just as there are connections between Fred's journey and Illyria's journey, another possible connection was brought up regarding the story Wes was reading to Fred as she was suffering. I believe the story was "The Little Princess", which involved an extraordinary young girl who escaped a painful 'real world' by retreating into a world of her own creation. Was this something Fred managed to achieve?

Also, toward the end with Wesley, she defiantly exclaimed that 'her power' was that she would not allow herself to be taken. That was the most powerful and intense Fred has ever been... she was absolutely determined.

Quote:

MHO, if--and it is indeed a big if--Fred returns in some way, shape or form, it will be from her own efforts not from being saved by the gang.

Ljosalf



IF that were to happen, it would be a tremendous demonstration of her inner strength. When all her brave and strong hero 'boys' were unable to save her... slender, brillant but shy, sweet Winnifred proved she could do what they could not.

Or... not.

11thHour

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, March 6, 2004 9:13 PM

AVER




Quote:

MHO, if--and it is indeed a big if--Fred returns in some way, shape or form, it will be from her own efforts not from being saved by the gang.

Ljosalf



IF that were to happen, it would be a tremendous demonstration of her inner strength. When all her brave and strong hero 'boys' were unable to save her... slender, brillant but shy, sweet Winnefred proved she could do what they could not.

Or... not.

11thHour


Yeah! That made me tear up. Well put.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, March 6, 2004 11:15 PM

FLYINFREE


Quote:

Originally posted by Hjermsted:
Shells was a great episode that really had me engaged... laughing/crying.

However I am SO SICK of cheesy pop songs laid over melancholy montages. Not sure why the producers chose to do this at the end of the episode. Yes, the characters are sad and things have changed... but wouldn't some nice moody original music from the show's composer have been a better choice?

Is there some clause in the WB's standard contract that requires pop songs to appear in each and every one of their shows? It's becoming insipid.

Unless Joss wrote the song (ala BTVS: Conversations with Dead People)... stop using licensed pop songs to convey your point, please! It's cheesy as hell and I don't want to associate the excellent Mutant Enemy shows with cheese.

mattro

Joss and Tim love cheesy. The entire camera-work on Firefly was to get that cheesy spagetti-western feel.

"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:32 AM

GHOULMAN


SPOILERS!!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Fred is gone. Gone gone. As are Wes, Angel, and Gun. Notice - NONE of these characters are 'here' anymore. They have become shells of thier former 'fight the good fight' selves.

They are but shells with no soul. No feeling inside. This is 'the big chill' for the Angel characters and none of them will get out undamaged. Wolfram&hart has changed Angel and the gang just as corporate culture would change any person.

And yea, I thought the musical montage was a bit 'Buffy' but I won't nit-pick such a dramatic ep.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 12, 2004 8:45 AM

INITIO101


Here are my thoughts:

1. The female main cast member going bad is getting alittle old (i.e. willow, cordelia?)

2. On the other hand, amy acker's Illyria persona is very betwitching and sensual with the blue hair and makeup. I think she's hot.

3. The note of regret from Illyria right now just doesn't make sense and was alittle awkward. I didn't buy it either, especially given how it's been explained repeatedly that she's an ancient demon. Regret is something that she would just ignore. But I have my faith in Joss and the gang to give us something fulfilling.

4. What's the point of Wesley packing the pistols when it's established that semi-automatic machine guns can't kill her back in Hole in the World?

5. The end pop song felt forced. I'd much prefer a melancholy tune by the show composer.

6. Overall not bad and I'm optimistic. Angel is still 100% better than all the other shows on WB, including Smallville.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 12, 2004 9:25 AM

KURUKAMI


Other than the fact that said submachine guns didn't have a chance to fire? Besides, apparently Illyria does have to concentrate to shift over to fast-time, which is why Wesley was even able to put a gun to her head in the first place.

Small spoilerish side note, though. While browsing at TVTome's Angel site, I came across this little cast tidbit for two episodes from now.

http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-12/epid-2
76675
/

Interesting revelation, I'd say. Don't go to the page if you don't want a fairly major spoiler.

"Sir, I would like to gingerly point out that it is difficult for someone to be gently reassuring when they're holding three and a half feet of sharpened steel."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:07 PM

GORAMSHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by initio101:
Here are my thoughts:
*snip*
3. The note of regret from Illyria right now just doesn't make sense and was alittle awkward. I didn't buy it either, especially given how it's been explained repeatedly that she's an ancient demon. Regret is something that she would just ignore. But I have my faith in Joss and the gang to give us something fulfilling.
*snip*



Depends on who's feeling the regret.

We know that Illyria has some of Freds memories and we know she can at least sense emotion if not feel it herself ( 'your mourning is like ofal in my mouth' or something like that )

Plus, for those of you that are discworld fans ( and if you aren't become so (Terry Pratchett-authour, i'd recommend starting with 'guards guards' just cause the watch books are my favourite ) ) then you probably have come across the concept that the shape ( or in this case 'shell' ) has as much do do with how a mind works as the mind itself.

So perhaps it's because Illyria is in a human body that she can feel human emotions ( plus we don't know that these oldest of old demons didn't have emotions themselves )

Anyway, that's just my two cents and had it not been for the chance to plug Discworld i'd have probably saved them for later.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, March 15, 2004 9:41 AM

STEVE580


As for the guns hurting her, Angel mentioned that enough bullets will at least incapacitate her. So perhaps it was not entirely ineffectual.

And even if it was...Wesley's hand-to-hand isn't exactly up to par with Angel or Spike.
-Steve

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
ANGEL : After Show Reactions - YouTube
Fri, July 26, 2019 21:29 - 9 posts
Happy Birthday Elizabeth Rohm
Sun, April 28, 2019 10:44 - 3 posts
David Boreanaz Lands in New Series Seal Team
Thu, July 6, 2017 00:04 - 2 posts
Angel's Coat?
Fri, February 3, 2017 04:40 - 22 posts
You are my sunshine....
Mon, June 24, 2013 10:52 - 10 posts
Andy Hallet has left the building...
Fri, June 14, 2013 11:34 - 7 posts
Connor's hair...I should have appreciated it more
Fri, June 14, 2013 01:34 - 9 posts
So, that's finally it for Angel on TNT ?
Tue, August 21, 2012 01:09 - 1 posts
David Boreanaz' ho Rachel Uchitel had starring role in 9/11 Coverup
Tue, May 29, 2012 21:41 - 4 posts
Angel: "Give me a stake!" Cordy: "What? It's 8 in the morning."
Fri, March 9, 2012 12:33 - 2 posts
Vincent Kartheiser on the big screen - In Time
Mon, September 12, 2011 12:10 - 1 posts
Summer Glau on Angel
Sun, August 21, 2011 03:40 - 15 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL