Angel 5.13 - Why We Fight (spoilers) a.k.a. 1943 by kasuo

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Angel 5.13 - Why We Fight (spoilers) a.k.a. 1943

POSTED BY: KASUO
UPDATED: Saturday, February 14, 2004 04:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5548
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Thursday, February 12, 2004 6:18 AM

Highlights:

- Nosferatu!

- Is it just me or was the guy who was on communications the same actor who played Dennis way-back-when?

- Angel: "Spike's not in the SS. He likes the jacket."

________
"Let's moon 'em!"

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 6:24 AM

MERLINDREA

I have a question regarding this episode. I thought Angel never drunk human blood since he got a soul. I seem to remember something like this was said in an earlier episode...

Merl

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 7:33 AM

WERESPAZ

My favorite part:

Angel: "Lawson, Prince of Lies, Prince of Lies, Lawson"

-The SpAz

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 8:08 AM

OKKAY

One question: Is this the last time that Spike sees Angel until the 2nd season of Buffy? Since Spike thinks Angel is evil when they meet again on Buffy, does that mean that at the end of this episode, Spike still thinks Angel is evil? Even though Angel doesn't kill the crew like he said he would?

Also, unless Lawson had some sort of remote control chair-pusher, that was a pretty pathetic threat to keep Angel from killing him. Once Angel saw what Lawson did to Fred/Wes/Gunn, he could have just staked him on the spot.

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 8:32 AM

SUCCATASH

I have a question: Why does Angel have no intention of killing Spike, but he tells Lawson if he's sees him again, he'll kill him?

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 8:41 AM

WERESPAZ

I was wondering about the auto-chair pusher too. I guess that Angel had to see what he had planned, and once they were in the room, even during a brawl it wouldn't be too hard for Lawson to brawl into one or more of the chairs.

-The SpAz

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:43 PM

SERENITYVALLEY

There was both a joke and a slight continuity error all in the same thing. Here's what it is. Back in Buffy, didn't Spike accuse the innitiative of being Nazi's? I mean, he was joking then, but it's funny now to see that he was right. The problem is that the Nazi thing took place BEFORE he got a chip in his brain. So, Spike KNEW about the plan to mess with vampire brains way back when, and yet when it happened to him, he didn't seem to jump to any conclusions. I mean, obviously this is because the writers hadn't written it yet, but there seems to be a flaw in the timeline.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:55 PM

JUSTDAVID

Quote:
Originally posted by SerenityValley:
...but there seems to be a flaw in the timeline.

I don't really see what you mean. What's the flaw?

Haken needs a new development system for fireflyfans.net, please donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 1:14 PM

KANGER33

My favorite line?

Angel: "I'm not getting trapped at the bottom of the sea!"
Spike: "And I'm not getting experimented on by his government!"

HA! That had me howling!

~Nicole~

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 4:37 PM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by Kanger33:
My favorite line?
Angel: "I'm not getting trapped at the bottom of the sea!"
Spike: "And I'm not getting experimented on by his government!"
HA! That had me howling!

Aw, I didn't catch that line! Funny as hell, though.

Yeah, I thought it was cool that the people that captured Angel were from the newly created Demon Research Initiative.

I did think Spike and Angel's relationship was a bit...off. I mean, when they parted earlier, they were enemies; were they not? Here, they were best of buds. Also - Spike: is he not, you know...evil? Thought he was supposed to be evil. Just wasn't getting an evil vibe from him last night.

Angel needs some better security at work. Although, it's not like Wolfram & Hart hasn't been very good at keeping out vampires, historically.

Overall, this episode was a 6. I've seen better, but I've seen worse.
-Steve

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Friday, February 13, 2004 5:05 AM

GOOG

Quote:
Originally posted by Okkay:
One question: Is this the last time that Spike sees Angel until the 2nd season of Buffy? Since Spike thinks Angel is evil when they meet again on Buffy, does that mean that at the end of this episode, Spike still thinks Angel is evil? Even though Angel doesn't kill the crew like he said he would?

Also, unless Lawson had some sort of remote control chair-pusher, that was a pretty pathetic threat to keep Angel from killing him. Once Angel saw what Lawson did to Fred/Wes/Gunn, he could have just staked him on the spot.

I thought about that too. I think the episode was careful enough not to give away to Spike that Angel wasn't evil.

And the chair-pusher, yeah, that was a stretch... even for this show. I would have been satisfied with a generic "bomb-attached-to-the-chest-activated-by-this-remote-detonator-in-my-hand" gag.

Best quote was SPIKE: You're still a dick. (TO ANGEL).

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Friday, February 13, 2004 6:32 AM

KURUKAMI

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
I did think Spike and Angel's relationship was a bit...off. I mean, when they parted earlier, they were enemies; were they not? Here, they were best of buds. Also - Spike: is he not, you know...evil? Thought he was supposed to be evil. Just wasn't getting an evil vibe from him last night.

How do you figure they were enemies when they parted? Check out this link:

http://www.buffyworld.com/angel/season2/transcripts/29_tran.shtml (and do a search for "slayer")

That was when Angelus split away from Darla, Dru, and Spike -- back in 1900, just after Spike had killed a Slayer. And though Darla discovered that Angelus didn't have the killing instinct any more, Spike certainly wasn't there to witness the confrontation. Thus, definitely not enemies... and though Spike may have had the opinion that Angel was a puffed-up blowhard at times, he still respected Angel and Angel's strength and ruthlessness. Finding him on board the German sub must have seemed a good thing -- an old friend and ally, to stand with him against the much more dubious Nastrolyev and Prince of Lies.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Friday, February 13, 2004 1:36 PM

KALATHENA

Quote:
So, Spike KNEW about the plan to mess with vampire brains way back when, and yet when it happened to him, he didn't seem to jump to any conclusions. I mean, obviously this is because the writers hadn't written it yet, but there seems to be a flaw in the timeline.

Since when has Spike EVER been Mr. Brain-Trust? He's a dim bulb, that boy. They've played that up for a loooooong time now. I don't see any continuity error. He's just too busy living in the moment to be bothered with remembering anything important in the past.

My favorite part:

Angel: You're a Nazi?

Spike: Nah, I just ate one.

Nice nod to the origins of the Initiative.

An okay episode, but I really think they're pushing how much Angel could realistically have been doing in those 80 years, seeing as how he was supposedly *still* lurking the gutters and eating rats in 1995.

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Friday, February 13, 2004 1:45 PM

SERENITYVALLEY

Quote:
I don't really see what you mean. What's the flaw?

Oh, it's not a very big flaw. It's just that when Spike did get the chip in his brain, he didn't seem to remember the Nazi thing about doing research on vampires brains. It's like he wasn't paying attention or something, which, he clearly was, given that ironic quote mentioned.

As far as Spike being evil, I think it's hi-larious that though he's evil, he's still quirky as ever. I know he's whiny, but I thought he'd be whining to Angel about wanting to eat one of the people, but he just whined about wanting to drive the boat! He's like a little kid!

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Friday, February 13, 2004 2:43 PM

KALATHENA

Oh yeah. Just like a little kid. That's why his character is so cool. Like I said, he's only interested in the moment that is happening RIGHT NOW. He's downright Buddhist, in that respect.

--Kala

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Friday, February 13, 2004 3:04 PM

SUCCATASH

I liked the way Angel bossed him around but still called him Captain, as Spike insisted he be called.

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Friday, February 13, 2004 3:34 PM

The thing about Spike is, like he said in a recent episode, he was never 'in it' for the evil, he was only looking for some fun.

"There's glory, there's death, sod all else, right?"

________________________________________________

I threw up on your bed.

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Friday, February 13, 2004 3:34 PM

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Friday, February 13, 2004 11:22 PM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurukami:
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
I did think Spike and Angel's relationship was a bit...off. I mean, when they parted earlier, they were enemies; were they not? Here, they were best of buds. Also - Spike: is he not, you know...evil? Thought he was supposed to be evil. Just wasn't getting an evil vibe from him last night.

How do you figure they were enemies when they parted? Check out this link:

http://www.buffyworld.com/angel/season2/transcripts/29_tran.shtml (and do a search for "slayer")

That was when Angelus split away from Darla, Dru, and Spike -- back in 1900, just after Spike had killed a Slayer. And though Darla discovered that Angelus didn't have the killing instinct any more, Spike certainly wasn't there to witness the confrontation. Thus, definitely not enemies... and though Spike may have had the opinion that Angel was a puffed-up blowhard at times, he still respected Angel and Angel's strength and ruthlessness. Finding him on board the German sub must have seemed a good thing -- an old friend and ally, to stand with him against the much more dubious Nastrolyev and Prince of Lies.

Wasn't there something, though, about Angel sleeping with Drusilla, which made Spike angry before they departed? I'm not really up-to-date on the Spike/Angel relationship continuum, but this episode just seemed...wrong.
-Steve

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 2:37 AM

DRAKON

There is something my wife picked up on. Note how Gunn blew his "line" in the board room when they were talking about Eve being gone. He couldn't remember a word, and then covered by saying that he's probably tired.

Wife thinks that the Senior Partners are withdrawing from Angel and company. And this was the first step, by letting Gunns mind return to normal. What effect would this have with Connor?

I think she may be onto something.

{Her other theory is that Eve is "Daddy's Girl" Bosses daughter. And while daddy has to punish her for screwing things up, he is actually quite proud of his little girl. And will help her down the road.)

NOTE: Not trying to disavow these ideas in case they don't pan out. But I do want to give credit where do if it do.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 2:38 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Kanger33:
My favorite line?

Angel: "I'm not getting trapped at the bottom of the sea!"
Spike: "And I'm not getting experimented on by his government!"

HA! That had me howling!
~Nicole~

I liked a little thing. When Spike first sees Angel, he says "They'll let anyone on these things."

Then after Spike finds out about Lawson's return, same line.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 4:31 AM

KALATHENA

Quote:
There is something my wife picked up on. Note how Gunn blew his "line" in the board room when they were talking about Eve being gone. He couldn't remember a word, and then covered by saying that he's probably tired.

Wife thinks that the Senior Partners are withdrawing from Angel and company. And this was the first step, by letting Gunns mind return to normal. What effect would this have with Connor?

That was the first thing that popped into my head when that happened. Not sure I'm putting to much stock in it being anything significant, though. Follow-up on details like this hasn't exactly been the strong point in the last three years of Joss' shows.

--Kala

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