ANGELUS ARCANUM

One stupid thing about Angel Season 5 (spoilers)-OR- one, two, three, four; I declare a flame war!

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Friday, January 19, 2007 21:01
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 10488
PAGE 2 of 2

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 6:26 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:

"Forsaken Lurker "

Back off stalker! If it wasn't note worthy why'd you note it? Ooooh schoooooooled you. Stay in the baby pool so you don't get hurt!



Really? I'd say you're the stalker, as a matter of fact. You come in here, you're fair game. Or, don't you understand the rules? And, enjoy your little "victory;" I'm off to my own life, thank you very much.

Until tomorrow, Commie-loving Nazis!

---
Forsaken Lurker (at least when it comes to the RWED)

http://www.wunschliste.de/index.pl?vote&r=09 - Vote Firefly (but only once a week, so they all count)!

(by Kelai)

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:50 AM

MRBLUESUN


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Quote:

Originally posted by MrBlueSun:
The traditional concept of God simply could not be one of the PTB because quite frankly they are far too much like accountants or bank managers for them to actually function as the Judeo-Christian God. Don't ask me to explain they just are.



Okay so I'll take that on faith shall I

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBlueSun:

Also, Fred's soul couldn't have been completely destroyed because if it was how do you explain Illyria slowly developing more Fred like qualities towards the end of season five, such as her love for Wesley and greif following his death. As far as i'm aware evil old one demon thingies don't feel grief at the loss of mortals, but hell i'm no expert.



It's already established Buffyverse canon that you don't necessarily need a soul to feel emotion, even love. Spike for example demonstrated romantic love for both Drusilla and Buffy and still loved his mother after being turned despite the lack of a soul.

Illyria's move towards a more human personality could just be Fred's memories rather than a remnant of her soul.

Anyhow the God-King of the Smurfs wasn't evil so much as seriously megalomaniacal


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First



Fair point but let us not forget that Spike (and indeed vampires in general) were originally human therefore it could simply be a memory of the emotion and some latant psychological need to still feel that emotion, rather like an amputee feeling 'phantom pains'. Illyria was completely demonic therefore she has never had the oppurunity before her imprisonment to feel 'human' emotions. Indeed her only contact with humanity was when she (for want of a better word) consumed Fred's soul. Therefore her apparent development of human aspects must be directly linked to some shard of Fred's consciousness remaining intact within her. This gradual progression of Illyria towards humanity, her grief at the death of Wesley and her desire to avenge him, could indicate that Fred's soul was in fact begining to reemerge.
Also strictly speaking Spike was obsessed with Buffy. There is a difference.

'If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do'

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:19 AM

CHRISISALL


That's a straw man argument, MrBluesun! Where are your links? Why do you hate America? Can't you stick to the topic, troll? Go ahead and bash Joss, he's keeping you safe from the imminent vampire attacks, and their WMD's!!!*

*Worrysome Mouth Darts

good points thought dude, almost feel bad flaming ya...almost.

Flame retard-ant Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:23 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:


Back off stalker!


*Spike accent* Where's your cross, bitch? Big talk for a Nancy-girl! Keep writing love letters to The RightStuff, they make more sense than you do here!

Berserker flame raging Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:27 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:


Until tomorrow, Commie-loving Nazis!


Well, it's tomorrow, where are your Commie-loving Nazi friends? You do have some, right?

What am I thinking? There are no computers in nursury school; I'll have to wait for your witty reparte untill AFTER noon!!!!!

Master of the flame Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:31 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
WTF is PN???

Like you're NOT a Piratenews subscriber!!!
Y'all make me sick with all this Buffylove and such. Angel could (and DID) kick her ASS!!! The Scoobies suck, and so do you!
Take off, eh?

Hoser flamer Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:31 AM

CLEMENTINE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Why do you hate Angel?


I thought I'd been clear.

Angel is lame. His hair sticks straight up and he's bloody stupid.
___________________________________

Did it get really hot in here?

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:07 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:


Back off stalker!


*Spike accent* Where's your cross, bitch? Big talk for a Nancy-girl! Keep writing love letters to The RightStuff, they make more sense than you do here!

Berserker flame raging Chrisisall



I got your cross right here you freaking poof! *pulls out huge TRS skewering cross* and impales ChrisisallVampireDead*

(FMF can't flame today, she is on the feel good drugs)


----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:57 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:


Until tomorrow, Commie-loving Nazis!


Well, it's tomorrow, where are your Commie-loving Nazi friends? You do have some, right?

What am I thinking? There are no computers in nursury school; I'll have to wait for your witty reparte untill AFTER noon!!!!!

Master of the flame Chrisisall



No, I was hoping they'd all carpool with you. Guess you're just too extreme, even for that hwin dan group.

Well, excuse me for having an actual life. And, a three-year-old knows how to use a computer better than your decrepit old "buddies" at the old folk's home.

---
Forsaken Lurker (at least when it comes to the RWED)

http://www.wunschliste.de/index.pl?vote&r=09 - Vote Firefly (but only once a week, so they all count)!

(by Kelai)

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:05 PM

CHRISISALL


Biped!
Dog-walker!
Go-se eater!
Baywatch fan!

Really harsh Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:15 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:

*pulls out huge TRS skewering cross* and impales ChrisisallVampireDead*


Missed the heart, Dawnie!

Go be a key Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:25 PM

EMBERS


huh

this is downright unsettlin'

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:39 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Baywatch fan!



Oh, please! The only people dumb enough to be fans of Baywatch are the same brand of suckers that were foolish enough to love Hitler. So, that would be you, right?

---
Forsaken Lurker (at least when it comes to the RWED)

http://www.wunschliste.de/index.pl?vote&r=09 - Vote Firefly (but only once a week, so they all count)!

(by Kelai)

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:28 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
huh


Em, you've stumbled into the middle of a Flame War. Where are your weapons? 'Huh' doesn't cut it. We need, like, "You are all insane, you Joss-fearing miscreants!" or "Die, fools!"...something like that.

Flame instructor Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:30 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:

Oh, please! The only people dumb enough to be fans of Baywatch are the same brand of suckers that were foolish enough to love Hitler.



DIE, FOOL!!!

See how well that works? Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:55 PM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
huh


Em, you've stumbled into the middle of a Flame War. Where are your weapons? 'Huh' doesn't cut it.


I'm afraid my normal weapons, in flame wars, are:
snidely attacking the immaturity of the posters still living in their parents' basements
(while I'm pretty sure all have homes of your own)
or sneering at fangurls who are overly invested in one actor
(I'm thinking you aren't one of Spike's stalkers... are you?)
or showing my contempt for people who have to be the center of attention making every thread all about themselves
(but you guys seem to be staying 'on topic' more or less...)

In other words, I feel like Mal when he opens the crate o'River
I got nothin'
hense the "huh"

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Friday, December 15, 2006 9:24 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:

hense the "huh"

Oh, I got it.

And I AM a Spike stalker, heh heh.

Immature flamer Chrisisall

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Monday, December 18, 2006 4:24 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
And I AM a Spike stalker, heh heh.



I deride your spike stalking abilities, call yourelf a fangurl? LAME... I'm booked up to go sit through him doing an acoustic set of his own songs now that's dedication.

silly, silly american man


--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."



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Monday, December 18, 2006 9:24 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by charliethebloody:

silly, silly american man



First reverse-reference ever Chrisisall

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Friday, December 22, 2006 2:27 PM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


is it? I thought I'd used it before, still pinching your line though, sorry

hang on this is a flame war, I shouldn't be apologising... there, that's better...

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."



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Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:14 PM

THEMANTHEYCALLEDJAMES


When I think about 'Angel'....I like to pretend the last two seasons never happen

alot of the subplots where CORNY

-Killing Fred...acceptable...however the character Llyria shoudln't have stayed around past that episode either....they honestly tried to develop the character but it was too late to do that with just 5 episodes left in the series

-The writers tottally mishandled Cordelia's 'pregnancy'...if Charisma got knocked up why not just cover it up or write her off for a while instead of that cornyball Jazimine /Connor storyline


- The entire 'aramgedon' story arc was terriable...the whole show was leading up to it and they screwed it up...what a shame

-Having Spike in season 5 was a good idea...having Spike become a regular and upstage Angel was a HUGE mistake

-Whats the deal with the 'Senior Partners' they were hyped the whole show but they never really make an apperance ...since Angel joined W&H in S5 that was the perfect time for these players to reveal themselves(better yet when Angel joined the Black Thorn) hell why not make the SPs characters meet over the years but wasn't aware of their idenity...could have lead to some great twists

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Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:41 AM

TURNIPYODOUR


Look, I'm not going to even bother reading the whole thread because, well, I can't be arsed to sit here and listen to your stupidity.
So, all I'm going to say is that your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!



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Sunday, December 24, 2006 8:39 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


ok, this is my first attempt at flaming, I'm usually very nice so bear with me


Quote:

Originally posted by themantheycalledJames:
When I think about 'Angel'....I like to pretend the last two seasons never happen

alot of the subplots where CORNY



you mean like your face?

Quote:


-Killing Fred...acceptable...however the character Llyria shoudln't have stayed around past that episode either....they honestly tried to develop the character but it was too late to do that with just 5 episodes left in the series



it wasn't too late, Illyria did develop as a character and if she had just disappeared after shells, we would have been wondering what happened to this almighty powerful god in the body of fred. she had nowhere else to go, she couldn't leave the dimension but didn't have her armies to take over this one and don't forget if she hadn't stayed with them she would have blown up the etire area she happened to be in



Quote:


-The writers tottally mishandled Cordelia's 'pregnancy'...if Charisma got knocked up why not just cover it up or write her off for a while instead of that cornyball Jazimine /Connor storyline



I don't particularly disagree with this, I would have liked to keep cordy around, but it would have been pretty lame if they'd just pretended it wasn't happening and put her in baggy clothes like no one would notice...

Quote:


-Having Spike in season 5 was a good idea...having Spike become a regular and upstage Angel was a HUGE mistake



there's no rule that says the title character has to be the most interesting, buffy and angel were always ensemble shows and buffy and angel themselves were often not the most riveting and/or likeable. they just function as the glue to keep the group together.


Quote:


-Whats the deal with the 'Senior Partners' they were hyped the whole show but they never really make an apperance ...since Angel joined W&H in S5 that was the perfect time for these players to reveal themselves(better yet when Angel joined the Black Thorn) hell why not make the SPs characters meet over the years but wasn't aware of their idenity...could have lead to some great twists




the senior partners and the PTB don't 'exist' (for want of a better word) on this plane of existance, they have to communicate though the conduit, the oracles, liaisons or through visions, and the cicle of the black thorn are "the senior partners' instruments on earth". jasmine had to arrange for herself to be born from an impossible child and a higher being to be able to manifest here. I would have been very disappointed and pissed off if they'd gone oh actually it's these people who we've known all along

gaahhh, feel my wrath

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."



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Monday, December 25, 2006 6:32 AM

THEMANTHEYCALLEDJAMES


"the senior partners and the PTB don't 'exist' (for want of a better word) on this plane of existance, they have to communicate though the conduit, the oracles, liaisons or through visions, and the cicle of the black thorn are "the senior partners' instruments on earth". jasmine had to arrange for herself to be bornfrom an impossible child and a higher being to be able to manifest here. I would have been very disappointed and pissed off if they'd gone oh actually it's these people who we've known all along

gaahhh, feel my wrath"

All right I can except that the PTB doesn't 'exist' in they way that its something like the 'Force' from the star wars franchise

however the 'Senior Partners' were obviously physical beings (one even came to visist WR&H for the 75 year review)

and I felt that the series ending without any exposition on who these dudes were was dissapointing

and geesh Angel is one of my favorite shows (subtract Season 4)...I'm just discussing the bits I might have changed

And the very business like nature of Wolfram and heart sort of supports the idea of the Partners living in this reality (or another one) they aren't powerful in the since that they are mega-antiet evil badasses they, control the Demonic organized crime

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Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:03 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by themantheycalledJames:
All right I can except that the PTB doesn't 'exist' in they way that its something like the 'Force' from the star wars franchise

however the 'Senior Partners' were obviously physical beings (one even came to visist WR&H for the 75 year review)

and I felt that the series ending without any exposition on who these dudes were was dissapointing

and geesh Angel is one of my favorite shows (subtract Season 4)...I'm just discussing the bits I might have changed

And the very business like nature of Wolfram and heart sort of supports the idea of the Partners living in this reality (or another one) they aren't powerful in the since that they are mega-antiet evil badasses they, control the Demonic organized crime


you need to go back and rewatch Angel's earlier seasons....
it was explained very clearly that the 'Senior Partners' were from a different demention...
they were never on earth,
but they exploited earth.

They had closer ties to Pylea (rewatching that will explain a lot about them)

Having them show up as dudes walking around on earth would trivialize them and under-cut all that backstory we had been given before...

In fact the Black Thorn WERE closely tied to the Senior Partners, and destroying them was a huge set back for Wolfram & Hart world wide (it wouldn't completely wipe them out, but it was a big step forward in the fight for truth justice and the American way!)

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Just finished season five (again), and I still say HOLY CRAP, COULD IT BE MORE OPEN-ENDED?????

Not Fade Away makes Dark Angel's season finale look like a solid ending. Buffy seasons 5 and 7 ended much better!!!
My God, even a pull-away shot showing them enter the fray and fade out would've been something!!!

Sorry, jarred a bit here...even when I knew it was coming.

No fan of cut-to-black Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:00 AM

EMBERS


well the metaphor of the ending of Angel's S5 is clear,
and has been repeated often by Joss:
Angel never gets to rest...
he must always keep fighting.
So he has to fight this battle, but it won't be an ending, he'll have more battles to face.

He isn't Buffy, he'll never 'earn a rest'
it is more tragic, and more heroic and epic.
(IMO)


visit: http://weekinwhedon.org/wiw/

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:

He isn't Buffy, he'll never 'earn a rest'
it is more tragic, and more heroic and epic.
(IMO)


Agreed and all, but CUT-TO-BLACK???


Maybe it's just my visual sense...Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:40 AM

EMBERS


actually it is probably that it was pouring rain and they were shotting only the actors on that final night...
all the extras had been filmed earlier, and were being CGIed w/the added value of dragons etal

So it was probably because they just couldn't afford to have Angel enter the fray (their budget had been cut at the beginning of season 5, then cut AGAIN midseason! And of course on the final episode they must have been scraping the bottom of the cash barrel).
Anyway, enjoy the commentary ... it ended too soon but at least that final season kicked ass.

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:20 AM

CHRISISALL


Destiny and the last two eps blow me away.
(but I pretend Girl In Question doesn't exist)

Don't kill, and we won't kill you Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:28 AM

EMBERS


well I adored Fred/Illyria's part of The Girl in Question...
and I got the whole foolishness of Spike & Angel
(losing their heads over Buffy ... LOL)
but have you seen the first 5 pages of the new Buffy comic book season 8 ??
(it starts in March, but the first 5 pages are online)
because you'll find a big change in what you thought you knew about The Girl in Question!


visit: http://weekinwhedon.org/wiw/

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:37 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:

and I got the whole foolishness of Spike & Angel
(losing their heads over Buffy ... LOL)

The Two Stooges
Quote:


but have you seen the first 5 pages of the new Buffy comic book season 8 ??
(it starts in March, but the first 5 pages are online)
because you'll find a big change in what you thought you knew about The Girl in Question!


No! I must look!!! Now!!!

Dashing off Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:47 AM

CHRISISALL


Ahhh, so that's it....cool.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:46 PM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Ahhh, so that's it....cool.

Chrisisall


yeah that idea REALLY works for me!

Select to view spoiler:


if anything it underlines how foolishly Angel and Spike were behaving, because they were even fooled into thinking an imposter was Buffy,
and it is SO much better, IMO, that Buffy wasn't just being a clubbing party girl in Rome, instead she is doing big high risk drops from helicopters to wipe out vampire nests which terrorize people in remote regions!
(how cool is THAT!?!?!)


I love everything about Joss' decision to 'retcon' what we thought we knew...

Did you read Joss' comments at Whedonesque:
http://whedonesque.com/comments/12183#157173



visit: http://weekinwhedon.org/wiw/

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Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:55 PM

CHRISISALL


Thanks for that link, Em!

Gotta love that Joss Chrisisall

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Friday, January 12, 2007 4:27 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Destiny and the last two eps blow me away.
(but I pretend Girl In Question doesn't exist)

Don't kill, and we won't kill you Chrisisall



You and me both, Chrisisall.

Though I think I'll refrain from reading the teasers for Buffy season 8. It'd be too much torture.

*************************************************

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

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Friday, January 19, 2007 9:01 PM

SINGATE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Just finished season five (again), and I still say HOLY CRAP, COULD IT BE MORE OPEN-ENDED?????

Not Fade Away makes Dark Angel's season finale look like a solid ending. Buffy seasons 5 and 7 ended much better!!!
My God, even a pull-away shot showing them enter the fray and fade out would've been something!!!

Sorry, jarred a bit here...even when I knew it was coming.

No fan of cut-to-black Chrisisall



Now looky here! A bunch a buttnuts arguing over stuff what never happened. I got 1 4 ya ms.isall. Dark Angel sucked worse than all 3 SW prequills combined. Thats right and Jar Jar was badder than Max Aquavelva. How ya like me now?!



_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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