ANGELUS ARCANUM

My thoughts on Angel 3-5 *spolierific*

POSTED BY: SERENITYINSCOTLAND
UPDATED: Friday, February 23, 2007 20:25
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5376
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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:13 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Firstly, yay! I'v been allowed back on FFF.net - for the last 2 odd months my IP address has been banned for no reason that I can think of. And how could I contact the site without being able to get on it....

Anyway, I have used this time well as for my birthday I got Angel season 3,4 and 5. So my thoughts are as follows.

Season 3: Bloody Hell. What went wrong?! In my opinion Fred and Lorne were the only things that kept the series going. Gunn remained in his statis that he does until season 5. Fred was so sweet, but had a wonderful edge to her. Lorne provided much of the comic relief, his amusing reaching for the sea breeze had me laughing out loud an awful lot. I think the clear problem for me was that Angel was too happy. For someone that is supposed to suffer, cutting about with a baby he loves and moving towards a loving relationship didn't quite match up for me. Holtz was an interesting idea but beyond his core characterisation of a man who has lost sight of justice and turned to vengeance he didn't get a lot of development. And I was never really satisified as to how he managed to survive Quor-toth and raise a baby at the same time...
There were some great episodes though - 'Waiting in the Wings' and 'Sleep Tight' spring straight to mind. Alexis played Wesley's gradual descent to despair very well, though I felt that development deserved a couple more eps. The finale was a novel idea, tossing Angel's ass to the bottom of the ocean. Cordelia's elevation was bizarre, especially when considered with the truth revealed about Skip later.

Season 4 got it back on track I thought. Wesley was the stand out character, his dark persona and sleeping with Lilah. Plus one of the best lines in Angel "I'll take away your bucket." LOL! But the weak point of the season was Cordelia - I felt Charisma couldn't play evil at all. Bitchy maybe but not evil. And her breasts seemed to grow bigger every episode. 'Spin the Bottle' was a replication of 'Tabula Rasa', annoying. The Beast was a good mid-season evil I felt - the fight in 'Apocalypse, Nowish' was probably one of the best in Angel. I didn't think Angelus was bad-ass enough compared to what he was in Buffy season 2. And a cross-over with Angelus heading for Sunnydale would have been very welcome. 'Orpheus' was an excellent episode though - its always fun to see Angel's past. As for Jasmine - not a great villian imo. I felt no menace from her at all, though maybe that was the point. And she went down pretty easy.

Season 5 is the best season of Angel I think. The ensemble was greatly boosted by Spike and the lesser characters Hamilton, Eve, Lindsay, Nina and Knox. And the emotion was back. There were several moments that had me tearing up - Spike in the deeper well, Fred's death scene, Wes's death scene (well pretty much the whole of NFA, the last scene of 'Damage' but most of all...Spike in 'Just Rewards' faking goodbye to Angel. Even tho I knew it was some sort of bluff it still hit me hard. This happen to anyone else?! The fight scene in 'Destiny' is prob the second best one in Buffy/Angel ever. 'Smile Time' was just hilarious. 'Why we fight' was a brilliant mix of pathos and dry humour. Illyria was an interesting twist - the writer's were brave to take out Fred, a character they must have realised was very well liked. Even, though the Circle of the Black Thorn was introduced late on it felt like a long term plot arc, bringing back a few characters we had already seen. And the intriguing references to the Shansu prophecy. As for 'Not fade away'? Thats another post for another time cos this one has been a bit of a beast.

Like Book said 'It's good to be home.'


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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:35 PM

CHRISISALL


In S5, I thought Fred's death was forced...destroying the soul...what was that? *Plot device alert*
Other than that pet peeve, an OUTSTANDING example of what TV can be!

I have yet to view 3 or 4 .

Getting there Chrisisall

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Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:18 AM

RIVER6213


Well, the title of this thread did have a spolier warning so I shouldn't bitch. I just finished up with season 3 of Angel and liked it a lot, now I get to find out that Fred dies in season 4 or 5. Great! That's all I need. I rather liked the fact that Gunn and Fred were in love, now along comes Joss to shoot the puppies.

The whole Cordilia becoming a higher being threw me a little, but I did like that episode where Cordilia got to see what her life would have been like if she hadn't met Angel. *The Cordy Show!* That whole episode was pure genuis.

I have season 4 and 5, but I haven't opened them yet. I think I'm going to watch all of season 3 again. Is it just me or does anyone else thinks that Wesly got screwed over?

Oh well!

-River


P.S. Oh for christ's sakes! I just looked at the date of this thread and its like old or something.
I guess I don't get points for paying attention.

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Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:10 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well, the title of this thread did have a spolier warning so I shouldn't bitch.

Hey, I found out ahead of time about every death in both Buffy AND Angel...didn't stop me from being shocked anyway- Joss does death well (curse him!).

Death-challenged Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 5:50 PM

RIVER6213


I just finished with season 5 of Angel. I am done with the whole series now after a week of watching 4 and 5.

What was the whole point? Everyone dies. So what if they showed the powers of evil that they can be slowed down for a small while? Everyone still dies. What a complete lame ending.

Why does Joss get off on killing people?



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Sunday, February 4, 2007 1:53 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


One of the major themes running through Angel was that the fight never stops, that you never 'save the world' in the same sense Buffy does. I think that was what the end represented. Even though it wasn't supposed to be the ending...

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 2:59 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:


What was the whole point? Everyone dies. So what if they showed the powers of evil that they can be slowed down for a small while? Everyone still dies. What a complete lame ending.




Yep. That was my first reaction.
So, wasn't Buffy better?

That's what I thought Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 3:02 AM

MISSKITTEN


lol, you put several of my thoughts right spot on... lol. The only reason I watch season 3 is because of Fred. Season 4 and 5 were however great (With the exception of the Jasmine storyline. As much as I love Gina, the Jasmine storyline felt just wrong.)

*~*~*

"Joss, if you kill him now I'll stuff a compression coil up your ass sideways!"
~ Kaylee, "Serenity in 2000 words or less"

Kaylee's the perfect woman!

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 6:08 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
One of the major themes running through Angel was that the fight never stops, that you never 'save the world' in the same sense Buffy does. I think that was what the end represented. Even though it wasn't supposed to be the ending...



I understand this but still it was a pointless ending and left a bad taste in my mouth. All of that drama and sacrifice for 5 seasons for nothing.

-River

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 6:11 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Nothing?
Maybe you should rewatch 'A Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco'. The conversation between No.5 and Angel in the bar is pretty relevant here. Something bout "You made a difference in the lives you saved..."

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 6:15 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:


What was the whole point? Everyone dies. So what if they showed the powers of evil that they can be slowed down for a small while? Everyone still dies. What a complete lame ending.




Yep. That was my first reaction.
So, wasn't Buffy better?

That's what I thought Chrisisall



Yes, the ending of Buffy was better. At least the Scoobies survived and got to stand around on the edge of the now destroyed Sunnydale looking smug with the thought of a job well done. The hellmouth was destroyed and evil at least in that region got it's collective arses kicked.

The only people to survive in Angel was Loren and Conner, but I suspect that after that mob of demons finished up with Angel, Gunn, Fred/Illira, and Spike, they went looking for Loren and killed him. So great! after all that drama of 5 seasons, Conner gets to be the only survivor. Does this seem right to you?

-River

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 6:18 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
Nothing?
Maybe you should rewatch 'A Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco'. The conversation between No.5 and Angel in the bar is pretty relevant here. Something bout "You made a difference in the lives you saved..."



I did watch that and I did understand the message, but still in my book they died for nothing and it was a complete waste. The story was cut short and a victim of cancellation so the ending of the story was lame.

Yes they struck a blow to the big evil and showed them that they could be slowed down, but still the death of all of the main characters of Angel died. This is totally lame to me.

-River


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Sunday, February 4, 2007 6:27 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by misskitten:
lol, you put several of my thoughts right spot on... lol. The only reason I watch season 3 is because of Fred. Season 4 and 5 were however great (With the exception of the Jasmine storyline. As much as I love Gina, the Jasmine storyline felt just wrong.)

*~*~*

"Joss, if you kill him now I'll stuff a compression coil up your ass sideways!"
~ Kaylee, "Serenity in 2000 words or less"

Kaylee's the perfect woman!



I really liked Fred and her death got to me much more than the death of Tara from BtVS. Though as strange as this may seem. I liked the character that Fred became after she died. She became Illyra. This character was very dark and beautiful and I'm sorry that there was not enough time to fully develop her character.

The Jasmine storyline I liked a lot. She consumed a few dozen people a day, but ended hate, war, hunger, and all the other ills of humankind, and the humans she killed died happy and loved without pain. I thought it was a good tradeoff. You can't get something for nothing. Too bad they killed her.

Sheesh! In Angel EVERYBODY dies.

-River


P.S. And for the record I hated Conner from the moment he showed up. He whined more than Dawn ever did. I was happy that Angel finally shut the kid up by having his mind erased and replaced with whine-free memories.

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 10:46 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Conner did my head in too - though I know there is a great deal of debate over his character, explaining why he was so whiney. But mostly I just saw a whiner.

As for the ending, I'm sure I heard that Joss said the characters survived the final scene and that in his mind season 6 would feature both Illyria (who I loved as a character too, she had great lines!) and Fred, with Gunn vamped as the big bad. But it never came to anything - gorram cancellation. But with Buffy season 8 on the way, maybe one day we'll find out what happened in the alley outside the Hyperion.

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 11:48 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
Conner did my head in too - though I know there is a great deal of debate over his character, explaining why he was so whiney. But mostly I just saw a whiner.

As for the ending, I'm sure I heard that Joss said the characters survived the final scene and that in his mind season 6 would feature both Illyria (who I loved as a character too, she had great lines!) and Fred, with Gunn vamped as the big bad. But it never came to anything - gorram cancellation. But with Buffy season 8 on the way, maybe one day we'll find out what happened in the alley outside the Hyperion.



Oh come on! You saw the ending, and you saw that very LARGE army of demons plus those huge, giant robots or whatever the hell they were. There was no way on earth that those 4 people could have survived unless they ran like hell. And I swear I saw a dragon flying around also. No way they could have fought off all of that!

Speaking of Illyria. Whoever did the costume design and the makeup + the hair should get an award for creating the the most exotic demon in the Jossverse. Do they give awards out for that sort of thing?

-River


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Sunday, February 4, 2007 12:02 PM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Well a popular fan solution to that problem is the appearance of Buffy with an army of slayers to lend a hand.

I have no idea if there are awards for that sort of thing - you would have thought so, but Buffyverse shows have always been criminally overlooked at the Emmys.

PS. Giant robots?

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Sunday, February 4, 2007 12:12 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
Well a popular fan solution to that problem is the appearance of Buffy with an army of slayers to lend a hand.

I have no idea if there are awards for that sort of thing - you would have thought so, but Buffyverse shows have always been criminally overlooked at the Emmys.

PS. Giant robots?



Yes. When they showed that huge army of demons all running towards the Wolfram & Hart building. There were two giant creatures marching along with a metalic clanking noise. They looked like robots but I could be wrong. Let me get a screeen shot of this.

-River


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Sunday, February 4, 2007 8:21 PM

GROOSALUGG


Ya know, I watched the final episode when it aired on the WB, and I own the DVDs, and every time I'VE watched it, it ends with Angel saying "Let's go to work," and he, Spike, Gunn, and Illyria all charging into battle. Is there some, like, secret underground version floating around out there that shows them all getting massacred? No? Then the idea that 'they all died' is just an opinion of one possible outcome, isn't it?

Maybe they did all die. Maybe they didn't. You know what? Either way, it doesn't matter. People who call the ending 'lame,' or say that it's a 'cliffhanger' have obviously missed not only the point of the episode, but the point of the entire series, as well. IF they survived this battle, there would have been another one, and one after that, and one after that. They (Angel, Spike, and Illyria, at least) are immortal--they'll always be there, and there'll always be the 'next' big battle for them... until they finally ARE killed, whenever that may be. The way it ended was really the only way it could've ended--it suited the show perfectly, just as Buffy's finale suited it perfectly. Two different shows, two different mission statements, two awesome finales...

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Monday, February 5, 2007 3:47 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Hear, hear, Groo. I just finished watching "Not Fade Away" (it was on TNT this morning). When I first watched the ending, I'll admit, I was very conflicted. But the more I thought about it, the more I read fan responses and essays on the matter, I understood why it had to end that way. There will never be a happy ending for the Fang Gang, and I would much rather them go out fighting. And when you take into consideration some of Joss's intended but cancelled plans for the show (Gunn being turned into a vampire, Wesley and Fred coming back), it makes even more sense. But even without the potential stories of a sixth season, the ending just makes sense.

*************************************************

"You're a wee little puppet man!"

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Monday, February 5, 2007 12:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Is there some, like, secret underground version floating around out there that shows them all getting massacred? No?

I saw an underground cut on tenth-generation VHS that has Angel and the rest getting cut down by the hoard, and Wesley's ghost appearing with the comment "Well, this didn't work out as well as it could have..."

psychChrisisall

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Monday, February 5, 2007 12:17 PM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:

They (Angel, Spike, and Illyria, at least) are immortal--they'll always be there, and there'll always be the 'next' big battle for them... until they finally ARE killed, whenever that may be. The way it ended was really the only way it could've ended--it suited the show perfectly, just as Buffy's finale suited it perfectly. Two different shows, two different mission statements, two awesome finales...



I wouldn't say there can never be an end for Angel. That's the whole point of the Shanshu prophecy. It's just the end is so far in the future that he can't realistically see it - but he needs (or needed) it. I say needed because after Fred's death (and Illyria's speech in Time Bomb) Angel became disllusioned and maybe in NFA tried to end it on his own terms.
But as NFA wasn't supposed to be the end, I wish we could have seen Angel try to deal with going on (and on, and on, and on...)

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Monday, February 5, 2007 12:17 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Is there some, like, secret underground version floating around out there that shows them all getting massacred? No?

I saw an underground cut on tenth-generation VHS that has Angel and the rest getting cut down by the hoard, and Wesley's ghost appearing with the comment "Well, this didn't work out as well as it could have..."

psychChrisisall



*laughter*
Still it was a lame ending and that's my opinion and I didn't miss the point of the series. I get it, but it's still lame.

It's time to switch from the Joss Universe to my new 1st season box set of THAT GIRL. I'm cringing now as I open it up but I tell ya, at least I won't sit up night after night watching this.

-River


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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 5:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

It's time to switch from the Joss Universe to my new 1st season box set of THAT GIRL.


That Girl????
If you're looking that far back at least make it 'The Wild Wild West'!

Artemus Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 4:58 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

It's time to switch from the Joss Universe to my new 1st season box set of THAT GIRL.


That Girl????
If you're looking that far back at least make it 'The Wild Wild West'!

Artemus Chrisisall



Yes THAT GIRL.
Watching THAT GIRL doesn't require too much thinking. One never cries during a THAT GIRL episode which is a welcome break from watching endless Buffy and Angel episodes.

Back to the topic...

I had mixed feelings about the reintroduction of Spike. I loved Spike from BtVS, and I liked him a lot in Angel, but I thought that his sacrifice during the 7th season of BtVS was a fine sacrifice; a fine death. It was a grand ending to a very much developed character. The fact that he makes this splendid exit and then from his perspective pops back into existence in the office of WolfRam & Hart sort of in a way cheapened his sacrifice in BtVS.

Oh well...

-River


P.S.

Tell me Chris. Do you think BtVS, Angel, and Firefly represents the height of Joss's career and for him its all down hill from there? Just wondering.

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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 6:00 PM

DRU


I rewatched BTVS 1-7 and Angel 1-5. I think Angel got consistently better, moreso than Buffy. I especially like the character development of Wesley, and Fred-Illiayria. Enjoyed Holtz, Connor, Lindsey and Lilah. I wish they had gotten another season, if only to see what Joss would do with the Illiayria character.

I didn't like evil Cordy, she seemed stiff. I didn't care for the Cordy and Connor(Yuck)relationship or Cordy and Angel.


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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 6:26 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by DRU:
I rewatched BTVS 1-7 and Angel 1-5. I think Angel got consistently better, moreso than Buffy. I especially like the character development of Wesley, and Fred-Illiayria. Enjoyed Holtz, Connor, Lindsey and Lilah. I wish they had gotten another season, if only to see what Joss would do with the Illiayria character.

I didn't like evil Cordy, she seemed stiff. I didn't care for the Cordy and Connor(Yuck)relationship or Cordy and Angel.




Holtz WAS an interesting character. I found myself really liking him a lot. I really loved his deep voice when it comes down to it. Evil Cordy didn't do a thing for me, but I thought the Cordilia character had come a long way from where she started.

You are SO right about the Fred/Illyia character. She was so interesting. I too wish there had been another season to develop this character. She in her own way was very likeable and would have been a very strong part of the group. She was very powerful even when she lost a good portion of her powers.

Another character that I really loved and have not heard much from other people about her is Lila. I saw a lot of myself in this character. Too bad she had to die. She kept me laughing in a very big way. Also Wesley. Sorry to say this but I think his character was so much better as a dark, brooding person filled with pain and loss. Wesley turned out to be quite a guy and he will be missed.

-River

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 5:56 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


I think Wesley's character arc from Buffy Season 3 to Angel Season 5 was the most impressive character arc imaginable. Just look at him in the Buffy ep 'Choices' and then compare it to the Angel ep 'Release'. And the way the arc moved - a slow descent into darkness, not Willow's sudden shift. I think he's the standout character from the whole Buffyverse and some of the best writing ever.

Lilah was a great character - she was with us for four seasons, so got plently of development. She would have been great in season 5 tho. A ghostly friend for ghost Spike?

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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 1:09 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Tell me Chris. Do you think BtVS, Angel, and Firefly represents the height of Joss's career and for him its all down hill from there? Just wondering.

Joss will go the way of Sam Raimi, quirky little self-made cool stuff- then the sellout...well, not REALLY a sell out, but a BIG movie, the way Spider-man was for Raimi. I had thought Wonder Woman was gonna be that for him, but he's not doing it now, so....

Postphone the big one Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 2:29 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

It's time to switch from the Joss Universe to my new 1st season box set of THAT GIRL.


That Girl????
If you're looking that far back at least make it 'The Wild Wild West'!

Artemus Chrisisall



Hey what the hell is wrong with "That Girl"! Beats wathching the Flying Nun. Although I wish they would put Gidget on DVD.




I wonder if there are still any copies of Hazel?



----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Friday, February 9, 2007 9:43 AM

CYBERSNARK


Thise big clanky things were giants. Or possibly ogres. And there was a dragon, which Angel wanted to slay (not realizing that dragons are the good guys and that it was there to help).

Illyria at the very least wouldn't have died in the finale. I don't think she can be killed.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 8:25 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Thise big clanky things were giants. Or possibly ogres. And there was a dragon, which Angel wanted to slay (not realizing that dragons are the good guys and that it was there to help).

Illyria at the very least wouldn't have died in the finale. I don't think she can be killed.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.



I think you might be right about that.

-River

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