Angel S5 'Destiny', I can't believe it! (spoilers detected...) by chrisisall

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Angel S5 'Destiny', I can't believe it! (spoilers detected...)

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Sunday, May 28, 2006 05:29
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4190
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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:34 AM

OMG, ANGEL AND SPIKE BEAT THE S**T OUT OF EACHOTHER!!!
It doesn't get much better than this, my friends!
"I fell.." ROTF, you can't make this kind of stuff up! (Well, I mean most of us can't...)
Every ep featuring William the Bloody seems to become a favourite of mine....

Chrisis

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:00 AM

RUGBUG

Gotta say Chris, you're almost the sole force keeping me posting. Keep watching more Angel so I can have more to say.

Destiny was a great ep. The fight was brutal but the mythology was brutal as well. Who is the prophecy really about? Has to be Angel, right? But then again, maybe not. I really want it to be about Angel because that's the only way he and cookie Buffy can be together...and really, without all the curse stuff, they belong together.

You're making me want to watch Season 5 again. I just finished BDS/BDM for the nth time...I could stand to watch something else.

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:09 AM

CHRISISALL

I'm consistantly amazed by Spike's refusal to be brooding in his inner turmoil. He did BAD things as a vampire, yet seems to seperate this easily from his 'good' self now. All the more, this is poking fun at Angel, poor guy. So serious.
Season 5 has kicked into fifth gear...

Vive le Spike!

Chrisisall, the Bloody

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:54 AM

GROOSALUGG

That fight scene was possibly the greatest you'll ever see outside of something done in a feature film. And Spike's "Bit of both," with the accompanying shrug, still cracks me up every time.

Now if you can just make it thru the next episode ("Harm's Way", ugh), there's a solid stretch of 13 stellar ones right thru to the finale...

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 11:05 AM

CHRISISALL

If only Buffy had had this level of cinematography, and was anamorphic...
This is some of the best looking stuff I've ever seen made for TV!

Harm's Way can't be that bad, and even if it is, the good on these eps I'm seeing FAR outweighs the bad (referring to the 'weak' ones before Destiny...).

This is such a perfect follow-up to the Chosen Collection, I can't tell ya!
I got no words.

To read makes our speaking English better Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:55 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm consistantly amazed by Spike's refusal to be brooding in his inner turmoil. He did BAD things as a vampire, yet seems to seperate this easily from his 'good' self now. All the more, this is poking fun at Angel, poor guy. So serious.

I think this may be because Liam/Angelus consciously chose to become a vampire, while Spike may have been taken against his will, or at least seduced into it without knowledge of what he was getting into.

If this is true, then Angel's soul bears the karma of Angelus' evil deeds, while Spike's soul doesn't. It's as if Angel chose to drink and drive, wheras Spike was dosed with LSD without his consent. You still get a five-car pile up, but one is morally culpable, while the other isn't.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:12 PM

STAKETHELURK

I actually liked “Harm’s Way,” thought it was hilarious--especially the teaser. But then, I’ve always had a soft spot for Harmony.

As for “Destiny,” that was definitely one of the best episodes of the season. Love that fight scene. And the reveal of Lindsey. I also liked seeing Sirk, the sarcastic fallen Watcher again. He was great, I’m glad they brought him back.

And this was definitely an important ep for both Angel & Spike’s respective journeys. Although Angel’s been seen to be less and less of a believer in the prophecy over the years, he still sees it as his by default. But Spike’s claiming of the cup, even though it was a hoax, shakes the very foundations of Angel’s sense of self. Gets him questioning things, damages his confidence, and reveals that he still has a little faith in the Shanshu prophecy after all. And for Spike, it’s a chance to finally escape from second place. Whereas before he always seemed to be following paths Angel/us had already trod, now he’s the champion. Suddenly he’s the insider, while Angel is the outcast. And the victory serves to validate Spike’s own methods over Angel’s. Angel is broody and spends too much time thinking things through--criticism Spike had always leveled at him but now they seem to have come true.

A powerful turning point in the season and a sign of even better things to come. (Although I don’t think they manage to top that fight scene, despite trying very hard later in the season. Wait. I just remembered the Angel/Spike fight from Episode 14. That’s my favorite fight of the season. Watch on, and see why ;)

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:31 PM

GROOSALUGG

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Harm's Way can't be that bad, and even if it is, the good on these eps I'm seeing FAR outweighs the bad (referring to the 'weak' ones before Destiny...).

No, you're right, it's not that bad. It has some good laughs, and if you just take it on its own merits, it's fairly decent. It's biggest problem was it's placement within the season--sandwiched right in between "Lineage" and "Destiny" on one side, and "Soul Purpose", "Damage", and all the great ones that come after it on the other, it's going to be hard for it to measure up.

I'm a Harmony fan, too, but I just don't think she's a character who can successfully carry an entire episode on her own. S2's "Disharmony" was just about perfect as far as how much one ep can feature her and still be great.

And "Harm's Way" had one other big problem, over which I guess I still harbor a little holdover animosity. "Destiny" had this super-surprise ending, with Lindsey turning up again after almost 3 years, and the fans went crazy, wondering why he was back, what his and Eve's scheme was, etc. Then the show went on hiatus over the holidays--from mid-November to mid-January there was nothing. Not even reruns. So by the time it came back, the fans were in serious need of a fix, ultra-eager for the storyline to pick up where "Destiny" had left off. And instead, we got a puff piece, with lots of Harmony, and no Lindsey. Earlier in the season, or even after "Soul Purpose" or "Damage" might've worked a little better.

But luckily with DVDs, you don't have to worry about two month-waits...

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 12:18 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Now if you can just make it thru the next episode ("Harm's Way", ugh), there's a solid stretch of 13 stellar ones right thru to the finale...

Except Why We Fight.

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 12:23 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

People didn't like Harm's Way? Who didn't like Harm's Way?!? I ~love~ that episode. It crack's me up every time.

Although it's not quite as good as Smile Time

Desktop Hippie: at one with the 'verse

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:42 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:

But Spike’s claiming of the cup, even though it was a hoax, shakes the very foundations of Angel’s sense of self. Gets him questioning things, damages his confidence, and reveals that he still has a little faith in the Shanshu prophecy after all. And for Spike, it’s a chance to finally escape from second place. Whereas before he always seemed to be following paths Angel/us had already trod, now he’s the champion. Suddenly he’s the insider, while Angel is the outcast.

Really GOOD analysis; did you do a paper on this for college

? Spot-on, every bit.
And Soul Purpose was well directed, David did good. Seeing Lindsey was awesome- he was great in S2, hated to see him leave. And seeing Spike doing the Angel bit was beyond cool- I almost choked on my spaghetti when he started coming down on that first girl for wearing heels in a dark alley!!

Chrisisall, liking this show too much

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:46 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
So by the time it came back, the fans were in serious need of a fix, ultra-eager for the storyline to pick up where "Destiny" had left off. And instead, we got a puff piece, with lots of Harmony, and no Lindsey.

Yeah, I can see the resentment, I'd be there too.
As it was, Harm's Way cracked me up. Funniest moment:
"If you don't kill...we won't kill you." It was the way David delivered it.

Chrisisall, with new respect for Mr. B

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:49 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:

I think this may be because Liam/Angelus consciously chose to become a vampire, while Spike may have been taken against his will, or at least seduced into it without knowledge of what he was getting into.

one is morally culpable, while the other isn't.

Again, right on.

Agreeable Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:33 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
Although Angel’s been seen to be less and less of a believer in the prophecy over the years, he still sees it as his by default. But Spike’s claiming of the cup, even though it was a hoax, shakes the very foundations of Angel’s sense of self. Gets him questioning things, damages his confidence, and reveals that he still has a little faith in the Shanshu prophecy after all.

I don't think Angel has been less of a believer in the prophecy, just that he has given up hope of ever doing enough good to finally get to the reward. We know he stills believes when he goes and re-reads it. Spike knows Angel still believes when he hears about Angel reading it.

The coolest part of "Destiny" for me was that even though the physical 'cup of perpetual torment' was a hoax, Angel still drinks from the metaphorical cup. The complete loss of hope in ever being more than what he is at this point. The prophecy says: "He will have the weight of worlds upon him, binding his limbs, grinding his bones to meal, until he saves creation. Or destroys it." This could never be true of Spike with his "of-the-moment" mentality. He isn't even tortured by his past, how could the destruction of hope grind his bones to meal?

Even though the set-up was a hoax, the prophecy was still true. And only the rest of season 5 will tell you who is the real hero and which side he comes out on.

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Now if you can just make it thru the next episode ("Harm's Way", ugh), there's a solid stretch of 13 stellar ones right thru to the finale...

Except Why We Fight.

Aaaaahhh... I *liked* "Why We Fight". Sure, it was mostly filler, but it still had some good moments. The Prince of Lies was fun, and Angel putting the one vamp off the boat to swim to shore before the sun comes up was pure Angel - as was Spike's reaction to it (smirkily telling him, "You're still a dick."). While it wasn't the *best* Angel episode, it was still pretty darn fun - as were they all.

Mike

"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right."
- Laurens van der Post

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 6:25 PM

GROOSALUGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Aaaaahhh... I *liked* "Why We Fight". Sure, it was mostly filler, but it still had some good moments. The Prince of Lies was fun, and Angel putting the one vamp off the boat to swim to shore before the sun comes up was pure Angel - as was Spike's reaction to it (smirkily telling him, "You're still a dick."). While it wasn't the *best* Angel episode, it was still pretty darn fun - as were they all.

Mike

I liked "Why We Fight", too. Sure, it probably rates toward the bottom of those final 13, and it's a blatant rip-off of "U-571", and as a kind of a WWII buff I have some problems with the believability of the plot (beyond the whole 'vampires' thing, I mean), and I still don't necessarily 'get' whatever point the writers were striving for at the end, but it was a unique idea for an Angel episode.

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:58 PM

GROUNDED

Fair enough. I'm not a fan though.

1) It marginalised the characters besides Angel and Spike - I'd seen enough of that on Buffy...
2) It shoehorned Spike into Angel's post-soul past for no good reason.
3) It wasted the rather good concept of Angel being forced to turn someone to save others.
4) I suppose it doesn't help that, as you say, the remaining eps are all a lot better.

I suppose I was just objecting to the use of the word 'stellar' to describe the episode ;)

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Friday, May 26, 2006 12:10 AM

ZOOT

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
OMG, ANGEL AND SPIKE BEAT THE S**T OUT OF EACHOTHER!!!
It doesn't get much better than this, my friends!

Chrisis

Oho CIA, but it DOES so get better than that!! - wait until you've seen "The Girl in Question" - The funniest thing I have EVER seen!!

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 12:15 AM

ZOOT

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
I just remembered the Angel/Spike fight from Episode 14. That’s my favorite fight of the season. Watch on, and see why ;)

Heeeeehhhheeeee! Jsut remembered that fight - the best thing EVER!!

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 9:40 AM

CHRISISALL

"Don't kill,...and we won't kill you."

BwahahahahahChrisisall

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 6:22 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm consistantly amazed by Spike's refusal to be brooding in his inner turmoil. He did BAD things as a vampire, yet seems to seperate this easily from his 'good' self now. All the more, this is poking fun at Angel, poor guy. So serious.

well Spike's pragmatism is part of his humor
(and I do prefer the humor to the broodiness...)

Anyway I do love the dynamics of Angel & Spike butting heads, their contrasting styles and almost sibling-like rivalry....

Personally I don't think you can say that Angel chose to be a vampire any more than Spike did,
and I don't think you can say that one was more evil than the other (although I know fans who will debate that point ad nauseum). I think the differences in the two show how similar they are, and why they actually can work together so well.

Joss made a joke about having paired Angel up with many little blonds, but the one ingenue who really worked was Spike (actually James Marsters was a little hurt, being compaired to a little girl...but Joss later explained that David Boreanea's energy and acting was just never on such a high level as it was when paired with James).

Have you watched "Harm's Way" yet? Personally I loved it... but I'm a big Harmony fan!
I had loved her on Buffy (that famous hair pulling fight w/Xander? Classic!)
And I had loved "Disharmony", which I considered to be one of the very best early Angel episodes, the whole pyramid scheme send-up was a riot!

enjoy!

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 1:36 AM

CHRISISALL

Harm's Way cracked me up.
David and James had me in tears (lol) in Hole In The World... although the end had me in tears for a very different reason...

Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 4:18 AM

DIETCOKE

I wasn't crazy about "Harm's Way" either. But the other episodes are so good.

NY/NJ/CT Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 4:24 AM

DIETCOKE

Spike lecturing the girl in the alley was too funny. Just an unexpected surprise but so in character for Spike.

Spike was so great on Angel. The two of them play off each other so well.

NY/NJ/CT Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 4:31 AM

DIETCOKE

I don't remember that episode. What was it about?

NY/NJ/CT Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:29 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
I don't remember that episode. What was it about?

Hole In The World? Cavemen and astronauts, love.

Cavemanisall

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