ANGELUS ARCANUM

Angel -- "The Jasmine Arc: Atheism for Dummies"

POSTED BY: NOVAGRASS
UPDATED: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:39
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VIEWED: 16113
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Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:33 PM

NOVAGRASS


So we all know how Joss is the big raging atheist. He has not kept that a big secret at all. But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.

And then there was "Jasmine Arc" on Angel. Never before have I seen such a message of the loss of faith so clearly and blatantly presented in the media, and quite frankly, it's extremely refreshing. Let's look at the facts...

1. Jasmine as God and religion in general. She has promised salvation and appears to possess the power of love. Obviously, to those affected by her spell, she is a deity. But it's clear to the rest of us that she's manipulating everyone. Underneath her beautiful facade lies a rotting demon, a rotting demon that represents the attrocities committed under God's name.

2. Fred as the enlightened atheist. She feels alone and scared in a world of people who are blindly devoting themselves to a corrupt entity. Knowledge has stripped her of her faith... she wishes to go back to the times where she didn't have to think about being alone in the world, where she could be ignorantly happy.

3. The people as the blind, irrational followers. They are ignorant. They irrationally stand up in front of eachother and preach their irrational and emotional testimony. Some cry, some promise to kill the heathen Fred who doesn't believe in the light of Jasmine.

4. Jasmine's "food" as those who's lives were lost to give God and religion more power. She glows with a heavenly radiance after swallowing the souls of her followers.

5. Connor as the devoted worshipper who, no matter how much he knows, still blindly condemns those who see the "truth."

Here, Joss and the writers have crafted the most accurate portrayal of the feelings associated with the loss of faith. At first they are alone and want to go back to being blissfully ignorant, loving the non-existant being in the sky. Then they harbor resentment and pity for those who still believe.

Now, this isn't to say that Joss is preaching... because I honestly don't think he is... plus the story still has to unfold. After the pity there is the respect for religion as a moral force and an anthropological mystery, which I hope is portrayed in the next few episodes. I hope that Joss isn't still bitter and resentful toward the non-atheists out there... 'cause that becomes pompous and preachy. Hell, even if it is a sermon, it's still a heartfelt metaphor... and you gotta respect that whether you agree or not.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:27 PM

SUCCATASH


I agree with you. The points you make are excellent. I live in Utah and I grow tired of the "Christian" censorship and propaganda I experience. Joss is refreshing!

On a side note, I'm curious how Gina Torres can be a god on Angel, and I've heard Angel talk about Armageddon, but meanwhile, the end of the world is coming thanks to Nathan Fillion and The First on Buffy.

How come Angel doesn't talk about The First? Am I missing something? I've heard Angel is coming to Buffy in the finale. Not sure how the two shows are handling the End of the World at the same time, yet they are fighting different enemies.

Can someone explain to a newbie?


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Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:32 PM

RADEGUND


I think the two shows sort of live in their own universes, except when it's convenient plot-wise for them to intersect.

Radegund

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Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:33 PM

SUCCATASH


Oh. Hmm. (scowls)

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Wednesday, April 16, 2003 6:08 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


I think the original concept would have had both shows following a common line, but the switch of networks may have thrown that off.

Maybe Gina is the physical form of the " bigbad "

After all, gods work in mysterious ways. Even evil ones.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2003 6:24 PM

SLOWSMURF


did the willow crossover not make you think it was the same?

I think this storyline will be resolved before the end of the season. Besides, didn't Gina only sign for 3 eps? Thats what all the news says from beforehand.

I'm pretty sure they're the same universe fully still, just the networks limited how much crossing over they can do.(are they still awkwardly avoiding the word Buffy on Angel? I noticed they didn't use it when Angelus called up Buffy's home, seemed a bit suspicious though not awkward)

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:49 AM

INVISIBLEGREEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Radegund:
I think the two shows sort of live in their own universes, except when it's convenient plot-wise for them to intersect.



I see it the other way around: The shows take place in the same universe, except when it is inconvenient for the plot.

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:34 AM

CHARLIE


I find it interesting that both Angel and Buffy now have very blatant atheist plots going on, with different spins on it.

Caleb is quite clearly portrayed as an athiest ("Do you think I'm God?" "I'm beyond such concepts."), but he's evil as all get-out. So there you have the atheist as the evil, self-centered bastard.

Then on Angel you have Fred, who saw through Jasmine's charade and has now lost her faith. But she is actually doing the right thing, saving everybody from an evil demon.

I wonder if Marti Noxon has anything to do with the difference....

One more thing...
Quote:

But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.

Except for Cap'n Tightpants. Actually, he seems to be quite interested in it recently.

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:36 AM

HJERMSTED


Quote:

5. Connor as the devoted worshipper who, no matter how much he knows, still blindly condemns those who see the "truth."



Connor has had this problem since his initial return to the Earthly dimension. No matter how much evidence he receives to the contrary he will always choose the myth/lie over the reality before him. Look at his attitude toward Angel over the seasons (always believing Holtz' half truths) and his allegiance to Cordy prior to Jasmine's arrival.

Knowing all this made me nervous when in last night's episode Angel refused to leave the hotel without curing his son of the brainwash.

Connor has yet to prove himself trustworthy to Angel and the cavalry.

mattro

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:48 AM

BLUESUNWORSHIPPER


By the by...

Did anybody else notice the bit at the beginning of the Angel episode where Gina spoke to Jasmine's followers in their native language? She spoke to one young woman about her baby in what sounded like Vietnamese, but could have been Mandarin. I laughed after she did that, thinking, "Well, it's not like she hasn't had practice."

Yeah, I find lots of things funny. Don't ask why.




- T


"Two by two, hands of blue..."

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:57 AM

CHARLIE


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueSunWorshipper:
Did anybody else notice the bit at the beginning of the Angel episode where Gina spoke to Jasmine's followers in their native language? She spoke to one young woman about her baby in what sounded like Vietnamese, but could have been Mandarin. I laughed after she did that, thinking, "Well, it's not like she hasn't had practice."


Yeah. I think it was Mandarin, but I honestly didn't understand a word of it, so I'm not sure....

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:08 AM

RADEGUND


Quote:

Originally posted by Charlie:
Quote:

Originally posted by BlueSunWorshipper:
Did anybody else notice the bit at the beginning of the Angel episode where Gina spoke to Jasmine's followers in their native language? She spoke to one young woman about her baby in what sounded like Vietnamese, but could have been Mandarin. I laughed after she did that, thinking, "Well, it's not like she hasn't had practice."


Yeah. I think it was Mandarin, but I honestly didn't understand a word of it, so I'm not sure....



Jasmine did in fact specifically say it was Mandarin! (see the "Gina on Angel" thread).

Radegund

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 9:00 AM

BRTICK


An interesting side not, the Angel Episode "Magic Bullet" was written (and directed) by co-executive producer Jeffrey Bell. Who worked on the X-Files and turned out some religion themed episodes and, of course, some of the real heavy conspiracy themed episodes on that program, as well.

Keep Flying!

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 9:57 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


disclaimer: this would be me venturing into territory that i've tried to stay out of on this board so far because kind of thing tends to cause folk to spontaneously combust. so here goes.

Quote:

Originally posted by Novagrass:
So we all know how Joss is the big raging atheist. He has not kept that a big secret at all. But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.



atheism a disbelief in the existence of deity - the doctrine that there is no deity
faith firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
belief a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.

by Webster's definitions your characterizations vs. faith are bang on. however, i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:10 AM

BRTICK


Quote:

by Webster's definition, atheism is the total absence of belief, not the loss of faith. an atheist generally doesn't have the faith to begin with.


Quote:

So we all know how Joss is the big raging atheist. He has not kept that a big secret at all. But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.


I would say Joss is an Agnostic (based on his work anyway). An agnostic is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.

but, both atheists and agnostic can start out with full faith in whatever religion and then lose that faith.

as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.


Keep Flying!

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:27 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by BRTick:
as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.



Mal goes from referring to the Independent reinforcements as angels to forbiding the very idea of God's presence on his ship--if that ain't broken faith, i don't know what is.

Quote:

I would say Joss is an Agnostic...is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.



that's what I was trying to get across, only you did it much better. i changed my post because of that - i know, bad channain, bad bad - but there's nothing that brews up trouble faster than a discussion of faith and/or religion.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 11:37 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
I would say Joss is an Agnostic...is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.



"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267

Atheist.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 11:57 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by BRTick:
as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.



BRTICK: Ok, I'm sorry I didn't CLARIFY myself. What I meant was a STORY ARC on it, a metaphorical villain arc on Buffy or Angel. Yes, Mal is an atheist, but his story isn't about BEING an atheist. It's a character trait of his, not his story.

Quote:

atheism a disbelief in the existence of deity - the doctrine that there is no deity
faith firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
belief a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.

i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?




Channain: By this logic, when you lose faith in God, or the belief in God, you become an atheist, someone who does not believe in the existance of a God. Because he's an atheist doesn't mean he's always been an atheist, and I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it. In both cases it was once there, so that it can be lost or broken. Broken faith and lost faith are the same thing to me. Though, I suppose, if you lose faith there's the possibility of finding it... but then again, you can repair broken things as well... so I guess I'm back to them being the same thing.

I once believed in God. I no longer do. I am an atheist. The definition of atheism doesn't stipulate that the atheist NEVER belived in God. Most atheists I know have grown up in a somewhat religious environment, and were at least a little faithful in their younger days.

EDIT: Ignore my confusion, the later posts helped me out.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 11:59 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:


"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."



okay, so i'll cheerfully stand corrected. can't vouch for BRtick though, who educated us on the agnostics. speaking from personal experience (which is to say, someone who's been there), i'm still of the opinion that angry atheist is just a colorful way to say broken believer.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:03 PM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:

i'm still of the opinion that angry atheist is a colorful way to say broken believer.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal



Hehe, well whatever terminology you use, let's just leave it at Joss doesn't believe in God, atheists don't belive in God, and The Jasmine Arc is a metaphorical journey through becoming an atheist.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:16 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Hehe, well whatever terminology you use, let's just leave it at Joss doesn't believe in God, atheists don't belive in God, and The Jasmine Arc is a metaphorical journey through becoming an atheist.



i can live with that. like Paul Bettany calls himself a "misguided adolescent," which is English for actor. it's all in the interpretation.

...or JW is an atheist who writes about agnostics? what's that do for ya?



"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:59 PM

EMBASSY


The current Atlantic has an article in the beginning section coins a new word I have become fond of: Apatheist. An apatheist is a person who doesn't care about religion all that much one way or another. It might include believers as well as non-believers. Fun idea -- I knew there was a word out there for my religious preference.

But the current story arc on Angel and on Buffy is by no means apatheistic.

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 9:18 PM

BRTICK


Quote:

"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267



Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.

Keep Flying!

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Friday, April 18, 2003 5:25 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

The current Atlantic has an article in the beginning section coins a new word I have become fond of: Apatheist. An apatheist is a person who doesn't care about religion all that much one way or another. It might include believers as well as non-believers. Fun idea -- I knew there was a word out there for my religious preference.



HEY! that is a fun idea. i'm a believer (not a trace...of doubt in my mind...) but i've had all manner of objections with religion in general because of all the gorramn rules and prejudices that seem to follow on occasion. like how "true" Christians don't believe you believe unless you're wearing a cross (not a bad thing, mind). i wear a yin-yang pendant, which some uninformed types have taken as evil-paganistic, totally ignoring the idea of balance between light and darkness. plus let me just say it fits the Gemini persona SO well.

this is the kind of broad-scope thinking that goes on when your mother was raised by parents of two protestant religions, baptized by a third and confirmed/married into a fourth...the child becomes an apatheist

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Friday, April 18, 2003 5:42 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it.



here's my thinking...

lost faith is when someone basically grows away from it. they're aware of it, but don't actively practice it. they'll got to church on holidays, but that's it. it can also be those dark despair times when things are so bad, they can't see the light and often times stop looking altogether.

broken faith is when someone has good reason to be so pissed off at God they deliberately choose to step away from the God path onto a life path of their own. that's not to say they'll automatically end up in the special hell or anything. it's a conscious decision, same as someone who deliberately turns back onto the God path again.

as you say, though, what's lost can be found, and what's broken can be repaired, but here's the twist - humans were given the ultimate gift of free will. what we do with it is strictly up to us.

again, this is simply my point of view. long winters in Minnesota tend to cause all manner of contemplation.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Friday, April 18, 2003 6:02 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
Quote:

I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it.



here's my thinking...

lost faith is when someone basically grows away from it. they're aware of it, but don't actively practice it. they'll got to church on holidays, but that's it. it can also be those dark despair times when things are so bad, they can't see the light and often times stop looking altogether.

broken faith is when someone has good reason to be so pissed off at God they deliberately choose to step away from the God path onto a life path of their own. that's not to say they'll automatically end up in the special hell or anything. it's a conscious decision, same as someone who deliberately turns back onto the God path again.

as you say, though, what's lost can be found, and what's broken can be repaired, but here's the twist - humans were given the ultimate gift of free will. what we do with it is strictly up to us.

again, this is simply my point of view. long winters in Minnesota tend to cause all manner of contemplation.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal




Ahh, I see where you're coming from now.

And the confusion endeth.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, April 18, 2003 6:14 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by BRTick:


Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.

Keep Flying!



In my experience, a lot of atheists are interested in faith and related ideas. Some of them become obsessed... a lot of anthropologists dedicate their lives to studying religion despite (or maybe because of) being atheists. Maybe they're trying to discover a new thought, a way to allow them to believe again, because it's very terrifying to feel so alone in the universe.

And I'd watch what you'd say about personal morals. You probably don't mean it the way I'm interpreting it, but religion is not the source of morality. It's sad to believe that the only thing keeping human morality in check is their dedication to a potentially nonexistant ideal. It's much more rational (not to mention comforting) to believe that morality is inherant in human nature (some more than others). Keep in mind that the most immoral attrocities in human existance (the Crusades, Jihhad, the Holocaust, etc...) have stemmed from religious teachings. To say that religion is the source of morality is to ignore the very history of religion at the expense of a belief in the inherent good of humanity.

Again, you probably didn't mean it the way I interpreted it... but I'm in a preachy mood today.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, April 18, 2003 8:29 AM

BRTICK


Quote:

And I'd watch what you'd say about personal morals.


Well,what I meant(kinda), How many times have you heard someone say something is right or wrong because the bible (or whatever religious tome may apply) or their religious leaders say it is right or wrong? Those that carried out the Crusades or Jihad or whatever believe that they are acting in a moral way, that what they are or were doing is right. It would be nice to believe that morality is inherent, and maybe it is, but people can carry out acts other would see as immoral and still believe what they are doing isn’t. When it comes to morals in really comes down to a persons own sense of what is right and wrong, and In the end only that individual can be held accountable for their own actions.
Take Firefly, for instance, the crew carries out acts that most see as immoral (stealing killing, etc.) and yet most of the time, they seem to be doing what they see as right and good to survive.


Keep Flying!

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Friday, April 18, 2003 9:55 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by BRTick:

Take Firefly, for instance, the crew carries out acts that most see as immoral (stealing killing, etc.) and yet most of the time, they seem to be doing what they see as right and good to survive.


Keep Flying!



mor·al
*adj. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
*Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
*Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.

Nowhere in the definition of morals does it stipulate a religious conviction. I admit that morals are certainly plyable. They aren't definate "this is right and this is wrong" scenarios. Different religions preach different morals... but every religion does preach morality. Take Zen Buddhists, for instance. Zen Buddhism is fundamentally an atheistic religion... there is no belief in a higher power. Are you saying that because they don't conform to Judeo-Christian concepts of god that they are any less moral than you? If you, you're more ignorant that I thought.

What you're saying is that religion shapes us morally. That may be true, only because religion is the basically the only place where most people learn morality (whether it be from family religious convictions, church, or whatever). But who shaped the moral convictions preached by religion? That's right, humans like you and I. Religion is a human-created concept, therefore humans put their ideas of morality and structure into the teachings. You are saying religion shapes humanity, but in reality, humanity is what shaped religion. Your logic that morals are not inherent in humanity is flawed at best. After all where did they come from in the first place?

I am an atheist. My father is an atheist. My uncle, and my sister and on and on and on... all atheists. Does that mean we have looser moral convictions? Certainly not. In fact, if I had to choose the most moral person I know, it would be my sister. Most atheists are moral for morality's sake. Most aren't moral because they fear eternal damnation; Most aren't scared into being moral. Most know the difference between right and wrong as well as the staunchest Christian follower, if not more so. (That is not to say that all atheists are moral, as there certainly are immoral atheists. Just as there are immoral Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindis)

I am still confused as to your ignorance at not allowing for the possibility of inherent human morality. Atheists are no more or less moral than any religious participant. It's as simple as that. The end.


--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, April 18, 2003 11:42 PM

BRTICK


Quote:

I am still confused as to your ignorance at not allowing for the possibility of inherent human morality.


I’m, not disallowing for the possibility of inherent morality, we all want to do what is right and avoid what is wrong. But, I think most of our ideas of exactly what is right and wrong are learned, from our parents, society, and, our religion or philosophy or whatever.

Keep Flying!

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:21 AM

ORANGEHORSE


Hey. I was a non-registered casual viewer of this site until I read this thread.
I love the site, anyway - so what the hell.
Nice to meet all of you.

I just wanted to insert a clarification in this discussion: the difference between religion and spiritual belief.
I don't support any organised religion really, besides Buddhism, maybe, but people can still always take advantage of an organised system with leaders like that. I do however consider my self laden with spiritual belief, surrounding my body, making it up, and driving these words to pixel.
This quote isn't exact, but you'll get the idea:
"A little philosophy inclindeth one's mind to athiesm, more inclindeth one's mind to spirituality."
-Shakespeare (though it might have been under the pen name of Francis Bacon, as a lot of the more overtly spiritual writings were)
I think this quote sums up my opinion on the matter perfectly. I grew up believing all the 'no different from the apes' jokes/quasi-philosophy, and it was when I decided to dedicate my time to working through life slowly and methodically, using reason and intuition, that I found the answers and proof I needed.
Ah . . . kind of got off on a tangent there.

Religion = someone telling you how to live your life
Spirituality = using your reason to come to know yourself and the world you have found yourself in

You don't know me, son, so let me explain this to you once. If I ever kill you you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:29 AM

TALRIUS


This is why you don't talk about religion and politics. It makes everyone all crotchety and angry. Anyone remember the war discussion?

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:35 AM

KAYTHRYN


Don't mention it Talrius! Shhhh, stay quiet, we've already got some vid ownership problems on another thread that is making people's blood boil.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:39 AM

TALRIUS


Quote:

We've already got some vid ownership problems on another thread that is making people's blood boil.


Yeah, I got an e-mail from Debchan over that. You know she pulled all her Firefly grabs because of that.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:56 AM

ORANGEHORSE


I don't know.
I think this discussion was handled pretty cordially - considering how rough it could gotten.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:58 AM

TALRIUS


You're right it's not as bad as other discussions going on. Where people are threating to report others to law enforcemnt. This board is getting kinda violent lately.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:29 PM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by Talrius:
You're right it's not as bad as other discussions going on. Where people are threating to report others to law enforcemnt. This board is getting kinda violent lately.



Remorse breeds violence, after all.

But seriously, I didn't mean to sound angry. Really I didn't. I swear.

Or did I?

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:45 PM

BRTICK


Quote:

Originally posted by orangehorse:
I don't know.
I think this discussion was handled pretty cordially - considering how rough it could gotten.



If it would make you feel better I could call somebody something real awful like "Fox Programming Executive" or something... naw, that would be too mean...

Keep Flying!

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Sunday, April 27, 2003 9:14 AM

XION47


Quote:

Originally posted by Novagrass:

And then there was "Jasmine Arc" on Angel. Never before have I seen such a message of the loss of faith so clearly and blatantly presented in the media, and quite frankly, it's extremely refreshing. Let's look at the facts...



Sigh...kind of a slow bunch here, aren't yah. This arc is obviously Joss's way of presenting the Anti-Christ, not the effects of the Holy Trinity. I mean if you guys knew what you were talking about like an Atheist such as Joss you wouldn't have made such a blatant mistake. Jasmine has the characteristics of the Anti-Christ not the Christ (which happen to be opposite things in case you didn't know). It's more of a aesthetic representation than a Biblical representation, though. So all the examples that you made should be reversed to equal believers not atheists, agnostics, or apatheists.

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Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:54 PM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by xion47:
Quote:

Originally posted by Novagrass:

And then there was "Jasmine Arc" on Angel. Never before have I seen such a message of the loss of faith so clearly and blatantly presented in the media, and quite frankly, it's extremely refreshing. Let's look at the facts...



Sigh...kind of a slow bunch here, aren't yah. This arc is obviously Joss's way of presenting the Anti-Christ, not the effects of the Holy Trinity. I mean if you guys knew what you were talking about like an Atheist such as Joss you wouldn't have made such a blatant mistake. Jasmine has the characteristics of the Anti-Christ not the Christ (which happen to be opposite things in case you didn't know). It's more of a aesthetic representation than a Biblical representation, though. So all the examples that you made should be reversed to equal believers not atheists, agnostics, or apatheists.



Who do you think you are to completely disregard my opinion and then condemn and insult the posters to this thread, even as you yourself ignore all evidence I've provided for my observation? Did you read the post further than the initial statement or did you simply react out of irrational emotions? If you had read further, you'd understand my position. If you're observation is so superior, how about detailing it bit further, instead of condemning me and the other posters to this thread. A simple statement of damnation does not a logical argument make.

Now, where does all of this anti-Christ stuff come from? I don't believe we brought up direct allusions to individual religious figures (i.e. Christ). Instead, we (or at least I) associated Jasmine's character as representing the evils of religion (which seems an accurate assumption based on Joss's DIRECTLY STATED atheist beliefs... see an earlier post for more detailed information on this subject). Though, Jasmine may not actually be an evil figure and may be acting out of genuine love for her followers. She may only look ugly, and the story may be a statement on superficiality as well as broken or lost faith.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Monday, April 28, 2003 7:39 AM

HJERMSTED


Here are some articles in which Joss Whedon expresses his opinions about the existence of God:

100 Questions with Joss Whedon (#74 to be specific)
http://www.slayage.com/news/030220-joss100qs.html


Is there a God?
http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3837/avfeature_3837.html


Who could you take in a fight?
http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3905/avfeature_3905.html


mattro

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Monday, April 28, 2003 10:05 AM

BRTICK


Quote:

Here are some articles in which Joss Whedon expresses his opinions about the existence of God


Sweet muscular Jesus!
ha! that gets me every time!

Keep Flying!

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Monday, April 28, 2003 12:32 PM

MATWANG


As I was reading this interesting thread, I realized that, when it was posted that Joss was "an angry athiest"- something about that line kept twinging in my mind's side as not sounding right... is there really such a thing as an "angry athiest"?

The pivotal word here is the concept of innate "athiestic anger" - who would they be mad at?

When you don't believe in god, the emotional attitude toward the subject (of whether there is a god) is more along the lines of ..."uh, whatever...."

If there are angry athiests, then surely their anger must be directed at the persistent and relentless prattle of those tireless, prodding believers, (you know who you are... wink wink, nudge nudge) and is not a component of their athiestic belief per se.

As to Joss "challenging God" when things go bad, that's probably just a cursing habit he picked up from his Dad (or Mom).

It's much more satisfying to vent your anger at the "big guy in charge"...somebody such as GOD - hence, personifying him/her, than yelling at the outcome of a series of random events.

"You damned tree! Why'd ya let the wind knock all of your damned leaves off your branches so they could be pulled to earth by the force of gravity thus necessitating me to have spend my Saturday raking the damned yard!!!"

It's just not as satisfying. It doesn't evoke the sense of reckless defiance one gets when one takes the name of a so-called God in vain. The act of cursing is like daring those alleged powers-that-be to strike you down. It's a far more bully thing to do than to say under your breath, "O drats."

Athiestic anger would surely have to be be towards man, not towards the chaos inherent in life, which actually is kinda pretty.

In my view, there's gotta be something running all these fractals, but that's another thread.

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Monday, April 28, 2003 1:39 PM

TALRIUS


Oh, GOSH, not again....

--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...

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Saturday, September 6, 2003 4:41 PM

RITA


i am an agnosticwell more or less an atheist who is in private a little smug about my beliefs but i am also one whose never been fond of atheists (you know the pretentious gits) who are insulting or cruel to those who posess and profess faith. I am not crazy about fundamentalist of any breed. here's two of my favorite quotes
'Morality evolved to sanctify procreation' Gore Vidal

'the problem with the world today is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves while wiser men so full of doubt' bertrand

so what i am saying is sure go out and stop the fear mongers and other haters but leave people what they rely to make life less harsh.

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Saturday, September 6, 2003 4:41 PM

RITA


i am an agnosticwell more or less an atheist who is in private a little smug about my beliefs but i am also one whose never been fond of atheists (you know the pretentious gits) who are insulting or cruel to those who posess and profess faith. I am not crazy about fundamentalist of any breed. here's two of my favorite quotes
'Morality evolved to sanctify procreation' Gore Vidal

'the problem with the world today is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves while wiser men so full of doubt' bertrand

so what i am saying is sure go out and stop the fear mongers and other haters but leave people what they rely to make life less harsh.

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Thursday, January 1, 2004 6:04 PM

HRHTHEDUDE


As an atheist, I feel somewhat insulted by the statements that we do not have faith. An atheist is not someone who doesn't believe in god, an atheist BELIEVES there is no supreme deity. Just as a christian can never prove to me that his god exists, I cannot prove he doesn't. I have faith that there is no deity. Proving something does not exist is not really possible unless you can be everywhere and everywhen in every dimension. To be a true atheist, you have to have faith. For these reasons I respect everyone's right to believe what they choose, I'd just prefer it if American society extended that respect to me as well.

Well, that was a slap and a tickle!

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Sunday, January 4, 2004 4:21 PM

LADYJAYNE


If you want some great commentary on the Jasmine story arc, be sure to get the copy of the Angel compainion to Seven Seasons of Buffy. Not sure exactly when it's coming out, but it will likely be sometime this summer. There will be an essay by SF author Steven Harper (DREAMER; NIGHTMARE; TRICKSTER) on the Jasmine story and the biblical parallels in it.

Steven Harper is my husband so that's how I know the essay will be ther. :-)

--Kala

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 11:34 AM

KINGOFKOINS


Quote:

Originally posted by BRTick:
Quote:

"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267



Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.

Keep Flying!



That isn't uncommon. I'm an atheist, but I'm fascinated by religion. Also, faith doesn't just have to be restricted to god or other supposed "higher powers".


--------------------------------
It's sickening how comforting the privacy of the mind can be.
"Bible's broken; contradictions, false logistics. Doesn't make sense." - River
http://stripe.filetap.com

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 12:39 PM

STEVE580


Quote:

Originally posted by HRHTheDude:
As an atheist, I feel somewhat insulted by the statements that we do not have faith. An atheist is not someone who doesn't believe in god, an atheist BELIEVES there is no supreme deity. Just as a christian can never prove to me that his god exists, I cannot prove he doesn't. I have faith that there is no deity. Proving something does not exist is not really possible unless you can be everywhere and everywhen in every dimension. To be a true atheist, you have to have faith. For these reasons I respect everyone's right to believe what they choose, I'd just prefer it if American society extended that respect to me as well.


That's the stupidest thing I've ever read.
-Steve

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