ANGELUS ARCANUM

SPOILER! Wesley After Angel

POSTED BY: ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 14:53
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 11414
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:35 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


With Lilah,she died and came back because her contract with Wolfram & Hart went past death.Don't you think that Wesleys contract was the same even if he did betray WW?I mean,Lilah kinda betrayed WW too because she was hanging with the enemy.So if they DID have a season 6 or a movie(yea rite)do you think Wesley would be in it.Cause I don't think Alexis wanted to leave the series but since he knew there wasn't going to be a season 6 he didn't care.And with Fred,her soul was shattered so she couldn't keep her contract unless Illyria stepped into the contract.And even if Fred could come back that would be hard to do two people that play the same character for every episode unless something happened to Illyria which is highly unlikley.

Angel:Lets got to work.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:47 PM

KELLAINA


I didn't think Wesley and the others signed contracts. Maybe I just missed it, but it doesn't seem like something they would do, especially since the W&H offices were given to them, they weren't hired in the same way Lilah would have been.

Of course that wouldn't stop the character from coming back...


If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

Browncoat? Canadian? Join us:
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/canadianbrowncoats/

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:53 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by Kellaina:
I didn't think Wesley and the others signed contracts. Maybe I just missed it, but it doesn't seem like something they would do, especially since the W&H offices were given to them, they weren't hired in the same way Lilah would have been.

/



Wouldn't they have to sign some kind of contract to work there?Even if it was on an offer.

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 3:03 PM

TYLERMAYHEM


i dont think they signed a contract, i know angel did because of his deal for connor but i think the others just came along for the ride. i may be wrong but i dont remember any mention of contracts. would be a good plot device to bring wes back into the fold though. there is a rumor of a spike movie in the works written by tim minear{fingersntoes crossed} lol

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 3:17 PM

SPINLAND


Die, Wesley Crusher, die!

----
I can see you.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 8:35 PM

EMMA


Just as well I had seen the show or I'd be might pissed with that title thread.

Fantastic death, utterly pointless and very emotional. Pointless deaths are always the best. As much as I love Wesley, he should stay dead.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 9:35 PM

LIZANNE


That was just, such a poigniant moment, with Wes and Ilyria.. with Fred. Just... incredible moment. And.. then with Lorne and Lindsey..

Fantastic finale.

And, I agree that Wes should stay dead. It would cheapen the emotional moment of that scene and of that whole episode. Joss has a fun way, though, of killing people dead and not bringing them back (not all the time but.. Buffy's gotta live.. I guess). He's not afraid to go that length for drama and I *love* him for it.

Liz
Nathan sat next to me.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:35 PM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Emma:
Just as well I had seen the show or I'd be might pissed with that title thread.



There are still people on here who haven't reached the end - a spoiler tag and a less spoilery title would have been a bit more considerate.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:50 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:

Originally posted by Emma:
Just as well I had seen the show or I'd be might pissed with that title thread.



There are still people on here who haven't reached the end - a spoiler tag and a less spoilery title would have been a bit more considerate.



I didn't kno what else to put for the title.

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:04 AM

EMMA


How about changing it to something like: SPOILER! Wesley After Angel?



extremely dimensionally transcendental

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:15 AM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by Emma:
How about changing it to something like: SPOILER! Wesley After Angel?






better?

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:25 AM

EMMA




extremely dimensionally transcendental

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 9:47 AM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by Emma:





um...okay.

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:38 AM

STILLSHINY


It was always my hope that they would all stay dead. They all went down fighting the good fight. The whole idea here is that even if you die trying good people will do all that can to keep evil from moving forward. I loved this ending.

Keep em dead. Joss himself once made a statement about wanting to make a show where everybody dies at the end. It is my belief that this is that show, and it's done with purpose.

They all went into this not expecting to live, but the point was they went to the fight.

"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion

Stillshiny's Shop - I'm thinkin we rose again
http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=4728

Listen to "The Signal" www.serenityfirefly.com


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:47 AM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Does ANYBODY agree with me?:(

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:48 AM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:50 AM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Screw the blank thing I wrote.My computer isn't working right.

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, August 25, 2005 12:48 AM

EMMA


StillShiny, although I agree Wesley should stay dead I don't think Angel, Spike and Illyria should die. Fred and Gunn should be deader than a dead thing though.

The 'super-beings' have to win this one (even if they have to be helped by the scoobies+potentials)otherwise the world is going to be swamped with some seriously scary things. Besides, Joss has said this ending was the same as it would have been if there was another season so at least somebody has to survive. (He also said that Gunn definitely dies - hoorah, terrible character.)

extremely dimensionally transcendental

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:19 PM

EMBERS


I agree that I don't think Angel & Wes & Gunn & Fred signed the same kind of contract Lilah would have...
they were not hired as employees,
they were taken on as executive level management,
which usually is a VERY different deal
(besides none of them were giving their souls to W&H which Lilah knew she was doing, I'm sure that is why they could drag her back, her soul belonged to them)

But personally I have a whole different scenerio in mind for Wesley's return.
Remember when his fake robotic Father showed up talking about Wes' childhood and the resurrection spell Wes tried to perform on a dead bird?
Why were resurrection spells lying around the house?
Because that is what his real life Father was into!

I'm figuring that the RL Father of Wesley will raise zombie Wesley from the dead so that he can use him (and have the perfect obedient son he always wanted)...there is only a small sucking knife wound in his chest, nothing to mar our cute Wesley....

Then of course Angel or Spike or even Illyria will find a way to get help saving him...maybe Willow (because scenes between Alexis and Alyson are the best!) could do some magic mojo and get Wes' soul back into zombie Wesley.....

It is just my own personal desire of how things will work out.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:27 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
I agree that I don't think Angel & Wes & Gunn & Fred signed the same kind of contract Lilah would have...
they were not hired as employees,
they were taken on as executive level management,
which usually is a VERY different deal
(besides none of them were giving their souls to W&H which Lilah knew she was doing, I'm sure that is why they could drag her back, her soul belonged to them)

But personally I have a whole different scenerio in mind for Wesley's return.
Remember when his fake robotic Father showed up talking about Wes' childhood and the resurrection spell Wes tried to perform on a dead bird?
Why were resurrection spells lying around the house?
Because that is what his real life Father was into!

I'm figuring that the RL Father of Wesley will raise zombie Wesley from the dead so that he can use him (and have the perfect obedient son he always wanted)...there is only a small sucking knife wound in his chest, nothing to mar our cute Wesley....

Then of course Angel or Spike or even Illyria will find a way to get help saving him...maybe Willow (because scenes between Alexis and Alyson are the best!) could do some magic mojo and get Wes' soul back into zombie Wesley.....

It is just my own personal desire of how things will work out.



Not a bad idea.

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:07 AM

JACQUI


If I remember correctly, most of the Angel Investigations team were too suspicious of W&H's offer to sign anything and became quite upset when they found out that Angel had.

Angel signed two documents:

1. The agreement that allowed Connor to live, with a new life and new memories, as long as Angel joined W&H.

2. The Shanshu prophecy itself, where he signed away his right to become human.

Neither of which the rest of the team had to sign.

My personal theory? Angel didn't really sign away his right to become human... those signatures were nothing alike (but he did sign both in blood, which is kind of hard to fake).

Decide for yourself here...
http://www.havendehellmouth.com/rumour/miscrumours.shtml

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:28 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by Jacqui:
If I remember correctly, most of the Angel Investigations team were too suspicious of W&H's offer to sign anything and became quite upset when they found out that Angel had.

Angel signed two documents:

1. The agreement that allowed Connor to live, with a new life and new memories, as long as Angel joined W&H.

2. The Shanshu prophecy itself, where he signed away his right to become human.

Neither of which the rest of the team had to sign.

My personal theory? Angel didn't really sign away his right to become human... those signatures were nothing alike (but he did sign both in blood, which is kind of hard to fake).

Decide for yourself here...
http://www.havendehellmouth.com/rumour/miscrumours.shtml

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"



I agree that Angel really didn't sign away his right to become human even though it doesn't really matter since he'd probably be dead ne way.

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, August 29, 2005 2:00 PM

BATMARLOWE


I also have a theory (or loophole) as to how Angel can get out of having signed away his chance to Shanshu.

But I gotta add I couldn't buy the concept that one could sign away one's role in a prophesy.

Did Angel sign something at the end of S4?

Also, even if everybody did sign W&H contracts (and I don't see why they would have had to), those contracts wouldn't necessarily be the "lifetime" contracts that Holland Manners and Lilah signed.

And speaking of Lilah; I really wanted to see her turn up from time to time in Season 5.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:56 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I also have a theory (or loophole) as to how Angel can get out of having signed away his chance to Shanshu.

But I gotta add I couldn't buy the concept that one could sign away one's role in a prophesy.

Did Angel sign something at the end of S4?

Also, even if everybody did sign W&H contracts (and I don't see why they would have had to), those contracts wouldn't necessarily be the "lifetime" contracts that Holland Manners and Lilah signed.

And speaking of Lilah; I really wanted to see her turn up from time to time in Season 5.



I don't think Angel signed anything at the end of season four.I think the memory thing was just bait to get him to take the offer.

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:22 AM

BATMARLOWE


I watched the season finale to 4 last night and Angel doesn't sign anything in that ep. I'll have to ask Jacqui what she's talking about.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:29 AM

BATMARLOWE


Hey Jacqui:

You said Angel signed the agreement that allowed Connor to live. This didn't happen at the end of 4. Does it happen in the beginning of 5?

We see his signature on the Shanshu prophesy, when was the other time we saw his signature?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:35 AM

JACQUI


We don't see him sign anything at the end of S4, but in the S5 episode 'Origins' when Wesley and Ilyria are searching the files for Angel's strange behaviour, Wesley finds a document that agrees to everyone having their memories wiped. It's why he got so mad.

Again, I point you to this link...

http://www.havendehellmouth.com/rumour/miscrumours.shtml

I got screen caps of both signatures.


*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:06 AM

BATMARLOWE


Oh, ok. Have to check that one out too. Your memory of these incidents is so much better than mine.

Never quite understood the memory wipe. Why was it necessary for Wes, Fred, Lorne, and Gunn to not remember Connor?

Not to mention Wes' incredibly valid reason for being mad. It was such a violation of his friends' minds, and what did Angel gain by doing it?

See you in the other thread, bye.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:26 AM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


If Angel could sign a contract and they didn't tell about it until halfway through the season why couldnt they all have signed on contract like Lilahs?They could have planned to tell about it in season 6 cause at that time they were gonna have a season 6.

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:52 AM

BATMARLOWE


They could have signed contracts like Lilah's, but I see no reason to assume they did. And if they did, I'd reaaaaaaaaalllly like to hear what the writer's explanation for it is.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 10:24 AM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by batmarlowe:
They could have signed contracts like Lilah's, but I see no reason to assume they did. And if they did, I'd reaaaaaaaaalllly like to hear what the writer's explanation for it is.



me too but it still would have been a good plot twist if they had signed contracts

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:04 PM

BATMARLOWE


Well, we disagree on that point. I would have a hard time accepting the characters' motivation for signing such contracts.

But I just read your profile and it says you haven't watched FIREFLY. Needless to say, everyone at this site would highly recommend it. If, since you enjoyed Joss' other shows, you try FIREFLY, you'll probably be glad you did.

In either case, welcome aboard.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:24 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Well, we disagree on that point. I would have a hard time accepting the characters' motivation for signing such contracts.

But I just read your profile and it says you haven't watched FIREFLY. Needless to say, everyone at this site would highly recommend it. If, since you enjoyed Joss' other shows, you try FIREFLY, you'll probably be glad you did.



I've been meaning to watch it but I haven't been able to find it on TV

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:53 PM

BATMARLOWE


It's currently being shown on the SciFi network at 7:00 eastern time on Fridays. But that only helps you if you live in the U.S. and have access to cable T.V.

If you don't have access to SciFi, maybe you can rent it at a video store or online through Netflix or Blockbuster.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:55 PM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by roguedemonhuntr8:
I've been meaning to watch it but I haven't been able to find it on TV-Laura


do you get the Sci-fi channel?
because they are running the show every Friday night 7pm Eastern/6pm Central time
and they'll do an extra Marathon of Firefly on Sept 27th

if you don't get Sci-fi, do you have netflix?
because they have the DVDs available!

if not can you talk to your local video rental?
they should get them, Firefly has been a top seller on Amazon for the last two years....

I can't believe you haven't seen Firefly!

PS I liked seeing the screencaps of those signitures, I'm sure those meant something because they both look so different and they went to the trouble to get them into the shot...

Angel needed to wipe everyone's memories to reboot Connor's life, originally he thought he was the only one immune (but it turned out Eve was too). I don't think Angel asked to have their minds wiped, but it did prevent pesky questions and arguments.
---------------------------
oops sorry, I took so long responding Batmarlowe had already posted

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:55 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


kk,thnx

-Laura

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:30 PM

BATMARLOWE


If Angel didn't ask to have their memories wiped (Wes accuses him of it and he doesn't deny it), then W&H must have insisted on it. Why would they? The only people who needed to have their memories distorted were Connor, his new family and people they knew. I don't see why everyone needed their memories wiped to reboot Connor's life.

I guess ultimately it doesn't matter because it gets undone anyway, and on top of that the show's over, so it's all academic. And just my opinion to boot.

But I still think it was unnecessary and begs a lot of question as to what they could remember from seasons 3 and 4 if they all think Connor never existed. 'Cause starting from the moment they see a pregnant Darla, the existence of Connor affects virtually everything from seasons 3 and 4.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:08 PM

EMBERS


Batmarlowe: I think my POV is just that at the end of S4 I didn't see Angel's concern as being that he wanted to wipe anyone's memories...
the only motivation I saw was that he wanted Conner to have a different life.
I assume it was all or nothing at all (the magic mojo).

Just as EVERYONE remembered Dawn growing up with her family even tho she didn't exisit until S5 of BtVS.
You can't (I am assuming) have some people know/remember one reality and others know a different reality.

But it does create all kinds of plot holes,
just as Dawn's appearance did...
it is unavoidable when you 'rewrite' the universe.

I never blamed Wesley for his anger at having his memory altered, I just never thought that that was Angel's objective, but just a side effect.

Of course all discussion is academic. It is like the thread about why some vampires are stronger than others...it might be interesting to debate, but it isn't important. It isn't the point of the story. It doesn't even effect what you get out of the story.

Like the science in Firefly, that is the least important aspect of the show...IMO


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:47 PM

BATMARLOWE


I just spent a long time writing a response to your last post. And then my internet provider lost it for me. Let me try again. I'll try and boil it down.

You're saying neither Angel nor W&H wanted a memory wipe, it was just the repercussion of the magic used. I can accept that. Pretty much. Why didn't it affect Angel? It's okay. I can still accept it.

You can have some people know/remember one reality while others know a different one. Angel and Eve know about Connor while everyone else does not.

Did Buffy tell all the Scoobies about Dawn, or are Buffy, Giles, Joyce, and Dawn the only ones who know? I've forgotten.

Here's the biggie but I'm really paring down from what I wrote earlier. Dawn is about inclusion. Connor is about exclusion.

Continuity on BUFFY was not affected by saying Buffy had a little sister all along. Nothing that happened in BUFFY 1-4 would have been affected in a major or maybe even minor way because Dawn was retroactively there. I can't think of any plot holes that were created by the retroactive Dawn placement. Not saying there weren't any, but nothing springs to mind.

Continuity is murdered by removing Connor from Seasons 3 and 4 of Angel. What is the reality of those two years for the rest of Angel, Inc.? Is it the same minus Connor? Virtually everything in 3 and 4 is connected to Connor. There must be (and I'd have to rewatch ANGEL S5 to get the specifics) dozens of things Fred, Gunn, Lorne, and Wes wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't have done, thought, said, or known if they were unaware of Connor existence.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe if you just remove Darla's pregancy from their memories and then rewrite 'em so they think Cordy's pregancy was demonic (wouldn't be the first time that happened), then all the other occurrences in 3 and 4 would make sense.

That above paragraph was not in the first version.

So now I'll really have to rewatch 3, 4, and 5 to see if I out-argued myself.

Back to the original:

In any case I think it was a bad idea for Joss and Co. to go there. It really upsets the apple cart of continuity.

Or not.

Still don't like it. I don't see what Joss and Co. gained by not having the gang remember Connor.

I'll shut up now.

Remember this is the SHORT version.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:52 PM

MIKEYMO


I think that the mind wipe achieved two things, story-wise:

1) It created a nice symmetry with Wesley not believing he can trust Angel, therefore bringing back the memory of his betrayl of Angel. This also tied into the end-of-season-5 arc of Angel's willingness to compromise and cede ground that a champion shouldn't.

2) It allowed them to make Connor less of an insufferable shit.

So, that's not so bad. I don't think it was ever meant to last long, just long enough to cause tension within the group, esp. Wes and Angel. I am interested as to what the fake memories entailed, since there were definitely elements of the previous 2 years they remember.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:53 PM

DJSOSONUT


Pulling this thread up because i love Wes. Since Billy (3.06) woke me up to what an amazing alent Alexis Denisof is i've been a complete and adamant Wes fan. While a times it seems the writers were at a loss at what direction to take characters in Buffy and Angel, Wesley's arch doesn't suffer from that feel. It was done so well that it seemed, in hindsight, inevitable. I love how ME build a character than could ruthlessly and remorsely stab a person that was at one point in time his best friend, then turn around have him thinking of ways to get that person out of a hell dimension. That rates himself on all his failures, real or percieved, and doesn't get the easy clean cut wins.

As to bringing Wes back, i loved Wes's death scene. When i think about it i cry. I think his was the only Jossverse death that i cried more for the person dying then the person(s) reacting to the death. Which made it hurt even more since i could identify with Illyria's pain. So let me get this out of the way, i love his death, and if his arch has to end as is, then its the perfect a note they could end it on. As both winner (with Illyria's awakened humanity inherited from Fred) and loser (with his defeat by Vail).


Any way that brings him back better be damn good and work inside his characterization, arch, canon and serve a purpose besides just wanting him to be there. One of my favorite pieces of fanfiction does just that. Angel No Limits is an amazing season of fanfiction that i highly recommend. IMO it only cops out in the end and undermines everything they established before, to go in a direction so bizarre it finally feels like fanfiction. Sometimes the dialogue is stilted, and some of the writers are better than others, but on the whole it written so well and works so much in continuity that it made it hard for me to separate it from canon.

They started their season not with the fight of NFA or with Buffy and crew coming to save the day thus undermining every Angel characters' journey, but with Angel licking his wounds in bed and obsessing in over why they're still alive and where he goes from here. They didn't get overrun or beat the advancing army into submission. They were fighting and losing when the army just disbursed. (Me being of the firm opinion that Buffy is one of the main characters that just doesn't cross over well into the themes and morality of Angel i really loved this take on how to continue the series. Giles, Willow, Faith, Andrew, and obviously Spike would cross over well. Buffy, Xander, and Dawn not really.)

But i think their best work came in how to continue Wesley's arch without undermining the importance of his death; I think its Joss Whedon good. About three episodes establishing the new premise of reconstruction and Wes absence being felt. Then at the end of one episode they have him stroll, lean casually against a doorframe and say, "So, How have you been?" Then they quickly establish that he is dead, Wolfram & Hart did bring him back, no he doesn't remember signing a contract, but he made sure that it couldn't happen to the rest of them. But for a all intent's and purposes they're looking at an employee of Wolfram & Hart. Though he'll always be on the Fang Gang's side. He later tells Angel privately that yes, Angel did hurt the Senior Partners, they are no longer top dog when it comes to the Apocalypse, yes they are very upset with him, he's right to be paranoid, they want him to suffer, and Wes is their chosen instrument. When Angel asks Wes if he thinks he can stop that from happening, Wes says simply, "No, but i hope i can be of some help before that happens. If you'll have me." Then Angel speaking for me and i guess any other Wes fan, claps him on the shoulder and says, "It wouldn't be the same without you."

Already that worked in canon since season 2 had Holland Manners being brought back. Then season 4 had Lilah. So if there was a season 6 is the perfect way to bring back a major character. It also works well as a metaphor of Wes being dead inside, the loyal betrayer, and the road to hell themes in his arch.

Finally the plot twist that makes me love the story beyond the dialogue that makes you think you're watching an Angel Episode and boost Wes's arch to perfection and a true masterpiece. Though i don't really care for their reveal so i feel free to change it here. After about ten or so episodes of trying to adapt to not having the
resources of Wolfram & Hart at their disposal (Though Angel Stole one of the cars, which i love), going back to helping the helpless and finding themselves jaded, and Wes trying not to help them using those tools W&H or even bend to the pressure of doing his new job; the attacks start and keep getting worse. He walks into the main office of the rebuilt Wolfram and Hart, and sees a woman sitting on the desk of the C.E.O. He asks her what the hell the Senior Partners think they're doing, don't they think Angel having one of his closest friends tied to this place is torture enough. Wes has a deal: they're not to be harmed. Though she points out that he hasn't been living up to his part so he
shouldn't try to split hairs. Things aren't working on the Senior Partner's timetable anymore so an Angel that won't bend to their goals is no real interest to them. They don't have the time, desire or power base for finesse anymore so they'd rather just eliminate the wildcard, unless Wes lives up to his part of the bargain. Wes looks distraught for a way out then finally committed, "The attacks stop now. I'll do my job." She smiles, stands, then casually mocks him, "Road to hell, huh Wes?" He smiles sadly looking inward, "Indeed." Then his eyes go cold as he grabs her throat and slams her head down onto the desk. She looks at him with surprise, anger and then a bit a fear, as he says coldly, "Now, get out of my office."

Wes becomeing C.E.O of Wolfram and Hart works on every level of his character arch. Especially as Angel's truest mirror. If your rewatch the series with that goal in mind even innocent dialogue jumps out at you. From Buffy's "Is he evil?", Lorne's "Boy does that British kid ever play a big part in...", Wes's "Why do people keep putting to me in charge of things?", Lilah's "Don't think you're too good to work for us." Vail's "We're interested in Mr. Wyndham-Pryce he seems intriguingly unstable." and Illyria's "Do you want me to lie to you now?" Instead of reviving him feeling like a cheat his death becomes the perfect vehicle to trap him into that position.

Plus in Buffy canon is was established in season 3 that the minds of the dead can't be read. So since Wes succeeds alot more when he's ruthless, he becomes the only character ME can have do terrible actions without being evil. Cause if Wes had to torture, maim and kill villains, innocents and everyone he cares for to put his family into a postion where they could do major damage and help more people. He would do it, while hating himself every step of the way. Wes committed to a task makes Angelus look like a schoolyard bully, and Dark Willow like a temper tantrum. Which is why he's my favorite character and why he terrifies me.


Angel No Limits is an amazing work of fanfiction, though not perfect and has slash undertones that i can live without. Still the slash isn't overt, mainly implied and its very entertaining. I think the direction they took with Wes was best, but they do great things with Conner, Spike, Angel, Gunn, and Illyria too. With great call backs and in-jokes. And their resolution to Anne's and Drusilla's character archs are pretty powerful.

Sorry for yet another long post. I just love Wes.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
ANGEL : After Show Reactions - YouTube
Fri, July 26, 2019 21:29 - 9 posts
Happy Birthday Elizabeth Rohm
Sun, April 28, 2019 10:44 - 3 posts
David Boreanaz Lands in New Series Seal Team
Thu, July 6, 2017 00:04 - 2 posts
Angel's Coat?
Fri, February 3, 2017 04:40 - 22 posts
You are my sunshine....
Mon, June 24, 2013 10:52 - 10 posts
Andy Hallet has left the building...
Fri, June 14, 2013 11:34 - 7 posts
Connor's hair...I should have appreciated it more
Fri, June 14, 2013 01:34 - 9 posts
So, that's finally it for Angel on TNT ?
Tue, August 21, 2012 01:09 - 1 posts
David Boreanaz' ho Rachel Uchitel had starring role in 9/11 Coverup
Tue, May 29, 2012 21:41 - 4 posts
Angel: "Give me a stake!" Cordy: "What? It's 8 in the morning."
Fri, March 9, 2012 12:33 - 2 posts
Vincent Kartheiser on the big screen - In Time
Mon, September 12, 2011 12:10 - 1 posts
Summer Glau on Angel
Sun, August 21, 2011 03:40 - 15 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL