Sunday, October 18, 2009 14:35
TIMES READ: 870 The 2001: A Space Odyssey discussion thread CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
My Son & I just watched it on DVD. I hadn't seen it since the late 80's on crappy videotape, and my Son had never seen it. It was way cooler than I remembered. Near the end, my Son's questions came fast & furious- luckily I'd read the book, LOL. But I found that explaining it to him scene by scene really enhanced the movie for ME. However, I STILL liked the original ending where the Starchild detonates Earth's orbital nuclear weapons, a scene Stanley dropped because he thought it would echo the end of Dr. Strangelove too closely. Given the original ending, it would be in my top ten of all time- without it, it's merely great IMO. EDIT: I take it back. 2001 is up there regardless.
ECGORDON There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity
Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 16:18
Clarke was writing the novel at the same time they were writing and filming the script, so I would have to do some research to find out if he had actually written what you say is the "original" ending that Kubrick didn't use. Another change from the book is the Discovery going to Jupiter as opposed to Saturn. I'm not sure, but it might have had something to do with Kubrick not being satisfied with the FX for Saturn's rings.
2001 was the first film I reviewed for my site approximately nine years ago - http://templetongate.net/2001.htm. I just looked at it and realized I should revise it, because I make mention of the advancement in SFX in the past thirty years, but it has now been more than forty years since 2001 was released and I still think it is the best SF film ever made.
KWICKO
Officially the Angriest Man on the Internet™.
Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 16:20
It's not just that it would have been seen as too-closely mirroring Dr. Strangelove's ending, Chris - it would also have pretty much ruined the idea of the Star Child coming to Earth as a being of peace, welcoming us as the newest (infant) species to join the wider universe as a full-fledged member.
Imagine, if you will, some alien presence appearing from nowhere and detonating all your orbital weapons above your planet. What would YOU think was happening? Would you think you were being welcomed, or attacked? And if you didn't know WHERE such an attack was coming from, what do you imagine the Cold War reaction would have been? To wait and see, or to launch everything both sides had - at each other!
So that particular ending would more likely have been the ending of humanity, or at least of anything that could remotely be welcomed to stride across the universe...
Besides, while the film was being made, orbital nukes were rendered illegal and obsolete by treaty.
Quote: By 1967, the military of the superpowers had reached the conclusion that though space might be ideal for reconnaissance and communication, it was a dud as a staging area for nuclear attack and a treaty was signed banning nuclear weapons from a place where no one wanted to put them anyway; rendering the opening space scenes of 2001: a Space Odyssey with its orbital bombs obsolete before the prints even came back from the chemists.
So I remain quite happy with the movie as it came out. Besides, if you're sticking to the novelization, it doesn't even have to do with Jupiter, remember - the signal led the ship Discovery to Iapetus, one of the many moons of Saturn. Not Jupiter. ;) (Which rather screws the pooch on any of the sequel novels, as well as the movie sequel, 2010: The Year We Make Contact)
KWICKO
Officially the Angriest Man on the Internet™.
Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 16:32
Quote: Originally posted by ecgordon: Clarke was writing the novel at the same time they were writing and filming the script, so I would have to do some research to find out if he had actually written what you say is the "original" ending that Kubrick didn't use. Another change from the book is the Discovery going to Jupiter as opposed to Saturn. I'm not sure, but it might have had something to do with Kubrick not being satisfied with the FX for Saturn's rings.
2001 was the first film I reviewed for my site approximately nine years ago - http://templetongate.net/2001.htm. I just looked at it and realized I should revise it, because I make mention of the advancement in SFX in the past thirty years, but it has now been more than forty years since 2001 was released and I still think it is the best SF film ever made.
Apparently, that "match cut" sequence, when the bone is thrown into the air and becomes the spaceship - that space vehicle is supposed to be an orbital weapons platform armed with nuclear warheads. You can't really tell that from its design, and no mention is ever made of it in the movie (that I can recall, anyway), but that's what it was supposed to be, allegedly. If so, then THAT would be a bit more effective of a scene, but only marginally so. It's already one of the more imaginative scenes in all of moviedom, so I'm not sure how you could improve on it just by explaining the duality of the bone as weapon-cum-satellite as ULTIMATE weapon. It was impressive enough to me just as it is - from discovering a primitive weapon and hurling it into the air, to actually flying into, and living in, space.
Powerful stuff, still.
And it IS the ultimate sci-fi movie. It set the stage for "the look of space", to such a degree that even REAL space footage tends to look boring and mundane, because we expect it to look so much more dramatic...
Kudos to 2001 for also being the best "hard" sci-fi movie ever made. They took pains to get the science right, to get the reality of space right, to work with the realities of zero gravity, vacuum, etc. (no sound with explosions, ships that spin for gravity, use of velcro boots to walk in zero gravity, etc.)
Thanks for this post, Chris - it reminds me that 2001 is absolutely one movie I *must* buy on BluRay. Maybe it would be the right thing to do if I made THAT my first BluRay movie, since it was pretty much the first thing that hooked me on sci-fi when I saw it as a wee child in the theatre in '68... BluRay is probably the closest thing we're likely to get to achieving it in its original 70mm glory.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 17:20
Quote: Originally posted by Kwicko: And if you didn't know WHERE such an attack was coming from, what do you imagine the Cold War reaction would have been? To wait and see, or to launch everything both sides had - at each other!
Ehhhh, I see the detonation being quick & silent for peeps Earthside (though rather bright on the night-side). Not a dramatic countdown or anything. 'Sides, the Starchild could just deactivate stuff down there.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 17:22
Quote: Originally posted by Kwicko: Apparently, that "match cut" sequence, when the bone is thrown into the air and becomes the spaceship - that space vehicle is supposed to be an orbital weapons platform armed with nuclear warheads.
ECGORDON There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity
Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 18:09
Quote: Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote: Originally posted by ecgordon: CIA thinks Serenity is the best.
OHHHH-KAAAAY. 2001 rules; I just LIKE Serenity better. We cool now?
The laughing Chrisisall
We're always cool, Chris, even when I don't agree with you. I'll admit that things I really enjoy watching don't necessarily end up on a list of the ones I think are the best examples of film as an art form.
However, I feel another scince fiction film also released in 1968 is far superior. Planet of the Apes.
Planet of the Apes not only eludes to the end of the world, it lets you live, and breathe for a couple hours in that world. 4,000 years after a nuclear war. A nightmare that proves once and for all that humans aren't destined to be the rulers of this planet. The scene where Zeus reads Taylor the 29th scroll(6th verse) still sends chill down my spine(Also note the puzzled look on Taylor's face). And while the final scene is iconic, it's also a cryptic look at the inevitable.
I sort of count Beneath as "Part II." The social commentary in that is almost as stinging, and the end is so... final...
I think if Chucky Heston would've agreed to be in the entire film it would have been on par with the first one. And yes, "Beneath" is also really good.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 19:11
Quote: Originally posted by ecgordon: I'll admit that things I really enjoy watching don't necessarily end up on a list of the ones I think are the best examples of film as an art form.
Quote: Originally posted by ecgordon: Another change from the book is the Discovery going to Jupiter as opposed to Saturn. I'm not sure, but it might have had something to do with Kubrick not being satisfied with the FX for Saturn's rings.
I have a book somewhere on the making of 2001: Kubrick thought that to go to Saturn, they'd have to go to Jupiter first, thus having to design both planets. So since they had to do Jupiter in either case, they did it, then decided that doing Saturn too was a needless expense. Another item from the book: the monolith was in the perfect ratio of 1:4:9 (perfect squares, a sophisticated mathematical statement) and perfect precision measurement. The idea came to Clarke late in the writing process, too late to re-work all the shots.
A classic movie, a remarkable vision for all future sci-fi moviemakers. On the negative side, two problems with the movie....there are a couple of extended periods of pure boredom, and it's hard to stay awake. But my biggest problem with 2001 has always been the perceived necessity by Dr. Floyd and the space agency for total secrecy. In his speech on the Moon, Floyd says "Im sure you're all aware of the potential for cultural shock and social disorientation by the facts presented in this current situation" (might not be exact quote, but close).....then later on the Moonbus shuttle, he & fellow astronaut joke when they're staring at a picture of the magnetic field generated by the monolith. Then he says "all we can be sure of is that is was deliberately buried millions of years ago".....Dr. Floyd repeats " deliberately buried!" and brushes off the enormity of that term with a shrug of humble amazement.......WELL HECK, I could brush it off too! I hardly think evidence of extraterrestrial life would cause worldwide panic & chaos as these guys said. What...they're so much more "trained & condiditoned" than I to "handle" mind-blowing things? Bullshit. Average people built all the crap that got them up there in the first place. In 2010 we learn the tragic results that this mis-guided secrecy produced.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Monday, October 19, 2009 - 15:17
So (you knew this was coming), what about 2010? I liked it. You know, like in a "Superman II" way. Not the original perfection, but still held my interest.
So glad you posted this thread, Chris. I'd been reading a "Most Overrated" thread on the TrekBBS, and everybody was dumping on 2001 & Blade Runner, so I was getting kinda depressed.
No matter how many times I watch this film, my jaw is on the floor, and I keep saying to myself, "1968, they made this!" 'cause I think of the effects Oscar-winner for the following year, Marooned (which I find almost unwatchable). Actually, I'm finishing up reading Clarke's "The Lost Worlds of 2001"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Worlds_of_2001 ...and apparently a lot of the most amazing stuff was shot as early as 1965!
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Monday, October 19, 2009 - 21:35
Quote: Originally posted by cljohnston108: So glad you posted this thread, Chris. I'd been reading a "Most Overrated" thread on the TrekBBS, and everybody was dumping on 2001 & Blade Runner, so I was getting kinda depressed.
*raises hand regretfully* Yeah, and I did seem to remember mentioning some idiocy on there myself. I hope this redeems me.
Quote:
No matter how many times I watch this film, my jaw is on the floor, and I keep saying to myself, "1968, they made this!" 'cause I think of the effects Oscar-winner for the following year, Marooned (which I find almost unwatchable).
Marooned got an Oscar. *Falls backward off chair LOLROTF* I heard the early man in 2001 didn't even get nominated for best make-up because everyone thought Kubrick just used real trained animals.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 00:14
! My Son & I are analyzing the flick, comparing the "still on glass with the moving background" FX with the moving models. Old school RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ECGORDON There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 00:18
Quote: Originally posted by chrisisall: I heard the early man in 2001 didn't even get nominated for best make-up because everyone thought Kubrick just used real trained animals.
There was no Oscar for Best Makeup that year, but Planet of the Apes won an Honorary Award for makeup effects. Chris, I know what you think of PotA, but truthfully, which film's ape makeup do you think is better?
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 00:36
Quote: Originally posted by ecgordon: Chris, I know what you think of PotA, but truthfully, which film's ape makeup do you think is better?
Hey, 2001's was CRAZY perfect. There's really no comparison. I like PotA's as a fairy-tale kind of look. The make-up in the Burton one was extaordinary, but the writing was for poop.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 00:50
Interesting. HAL seemed confident that Dave's re-entry into Discovery without his helmet was absolutely unlikely, based, I assume, on available data concerning the subject in his files. Dumass AI! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
KWICKO
Officially the Angriest Man on the Internet™.
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:29
Quote: Originally posted by chrisisall: So (you knew this was coming), what about 2010? I liked it. You know, like in a "Superman II" way. Not the original perfection, but still held my interest.
The laughing Chrisisall
I *like* 2010, but I don't love it. And, like Serenity, I took the day off work and was at the theatre for the opening show on the first day of showing.
It kinda lost me when Roy Scheider was explaining to Helen Mirren how they could hook the ships together, and he's using pens to show her, and they're just hanging there in zero gravity - and then they get a call that something's happening on Jupiter, so Helen Mirren jumps up and runs out of the room - RUNS, in zero gee.
I knew then that we were on a far different ride this time around...
But it did a good job of wrapping up some loose ends and unanswered questions from the original, so that mostly redeems it.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:31
The extras on this double DVD are so excellent. The art depatment fed so much 60's goop to Kubrick, yet he filtered out all that mess to achieve such an astounding work of technological ART- the mind reels. I stand awed at the man. An artist unequaled in our time.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:38
Quote: Originally posted by Kwicko: so Helen Mirren jumps up and runs out of the room - RUNS, in zero gee.
Oh, like YOU never RAN in zero gee before! LOL, you grip-bootie non-believer!
The "It's full of stars" line by Dullea sucked me in. And HAL's voice. A little alcohol & the flick is almost as magical as the first. Well, a lot of alchohol. *hic*
Quote: After careful consideration, my revised top five SF films of all time list:
Serenity Blade Runner Planet Of The Apes 2001: A Space Odyssey Star Trek The Motion Picture
Ohh cool a list! Being British that's almost as enticing as a queue :D
1) SERENITY 2) Empire Strikes Back 3) The THING (1951 version) 4) The Andromeda Strain 5) Close Encounters of the Third Kind
I never really felt much for 2001 - left me cold. The score was basically made up from the classical records my Dad used to play when I was a kid and I think the association, when I finally saw 2001, just threw me off. *shrugs*
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 03:56
Quote: Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Ohh cool a list! Being British that's almost as enticing as a queue :D
1) SERENITY
A given.
Quote: 2) Empire Strikes Back
If only the others were as good...
Quote: 3) The THING (1951 version)
Carpenter did it better IMO.
Quote: 4) The Andromeda Strain
GOOD CALL!!!!
Quote: 5) Close Encounters of the Third Kind
I liked it. A lot.
Quote:
I never really felt much for 2001 - left me cold. The score was basically made up from the classical records my Dad used to play when I was a kid and I think the association, when I finally saw 2001, just threw me off. *shrugs*
Som, you REALLY need to see it now that you're not a kid.
KWICKO
Officially the Angriest Man on the Internet™.
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 04:21
Quote: Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote: Originally posted by Kwicko: so Helen Mirren jumps up and runs out of the room - RUNS, in zero gee.
Oh, like YOU never RAN in zero gee before! LOL, you grip-bootie non-believer!
The "It's full of stars" line by Dullea sucked me in. And HAL's voice. A little alcohol & the flick is almost as magical as the first. Well, a lot of alchohol. *hic*
The laughing Chrisisall
Oh, the velcro booties, I got no trouble with. But watch the stewardess on the PanAm shuttle in 2001, and notice how deliberate she is with every step, to get the things planted firmly to the velcro. Mirren should've either walked deliberately and slowly out of the shot, or she should've launched herself across the bridge in zero gee.
Quote: Som, you REALLY need to see it now that you're not a kid.
*head held low* I tried that and I er... I stopped watching.
Quote: If only the others were as good...
I still kind of like them. They're escapist fun, and while none of the other's reach the heights of Empire Strikes Back they are still an enjoyable yarn. They can't all be as good as each other. One has to stand out.
Even in classical mythology not all the tales measure up. Could just be the nature of the story.
I still think cinema is richer for them even parts I - III.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 16:33
Quote: Originally posted by Kwicko: Mirren should've either walked deliberately and slowly out of the shot, or she should've launched herself across the bridge in zero gee.
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 18:38
In the 60's-70's vein of space movies, I just watched Silent Running, and MAN was I offended by the sound in space thing. Trumble worked on 2001- didn't he LEARN anything???? Plus, the story was kind of simplistic. Good songs, though.
PIRATENEWS John Lee, executive producer
Pirate News TV, PirateNews.org
Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 00:41
What's wrong with this poster?
Quote: Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
But my biggest problem with 2001 has always been the perceived necessity by Dr. Floyd and the space agency for total secrecy. In his speech on the Moon, Floyd says "Im sure you're all aware of the potential for cultural shock and social disorientation by the facts presented in this current situation"
THINK about it. First clue, Arthur C Clarke renamed Jupiter as LUCIFER in 2010. That's what Freemasonry is all about, according to Albert Pike in Morals and Dogma, and other Masonic kingpins, who also ran NASA and "walked" on the "moon". Here's a tip: never trust a Satanist, nor a coven, especially when their hands are in your pocket. "Hoodwink" is what they call it. Apollo is the name for Lucifer/Satan/Devil in Revelation 9:11. Picture Eyes Wide Shut, and Neil Armstrong at Bohemian Grove refusing (not allowed) to discuss his "moon walk". Speaking of homosexual pedophiles, wasn't Clarke one? http://space.moonagewebdream.com/2008/07/24/the-lucifer-project/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Odyssey_Two
Clue 2: No rocket exhaust in 2001... just like Apollo LEMs "blasting off" from the "moon" without a flame. In 2001 the transporter is traveling at a constant very low altitude over the surface of the Moon, 1,000s of mph below orbital velocity, enroute to the Monolith, with zero rocket flame, smoke or condensation. Even the golfball Moon lander lacked a flame when landing. Only 2001 posters had rocket exhaust flames, contrary to the film, just like Apollo art didn't match the NASA video.
Clue 3: "No sound in space" is only true when outside the spacecraft. Inside it's extremely loud due to the air transmitting sound and vibration from standing beside a red-hot rocket engine. But in Apollo LEMs and 2001, theres no sound INSIDE the spacecraft.
Clue 4: Just do your LSD and STFU. Flying inside the monolith with cheesy alpha channel SFX I can do on $80 video editing software from Best Buy.
Clue 5: There's no such thing as radiation in space.
Dr Floyd's speech would fit right in to an Apollo briefing. "We have to fake it now to win the Cold War (smirk, while losing Vietnam), then we'll make it happen later." Typical speech to soldiers to do their "top secret" job, and STFU. Same speech I got as a soldier in the Cold War, that later proved to be BS.
Quote: FLOYD
Mr. Halvorsen has made known to me some of the conflicting views held by many of you regarding the need for complete security in this matter, and more specifically your strong opposition to the cover story created to give the impression there is an [insert topic here] at the Base. I understand that beyond it being a matter of principle, many of you are troubled by the concern and anxiety this story of an [insert topic here] might cause your relatives and friends on Earth.
I can understand and sympathize with your negative views. I have been personally embarrassed by this cover story. But I fully accept the need for absolute secrecy and I hope you will.
It should not be difficult for all of you to realise the potential for cultural shock and social disorientation contained in th present situation if the facts were prematurely and suddenly made public without adequate preparation and conditioning.
When the public has been "conditioned" after decades, or centuries, of Apollo Hoax facts, then the Truth can be safely admitted without a prison sentence, and a real manned Moon mission MIGHT take place. Unless gamma radiation cannot be overcome, or the elite godhumans have genocided/enslaved the human subrace.
KWICKO
Officially the Angriest Man on the Internet™.
Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 02:11
Quote: THINK about it. First clue, Arthur C Clarke renamed Jupiter as LUCIFER in 2010. That's what Freemasonry is all about, according to Albert Pike in Morals and Dogma, and other Masonic kingpins, who also ran NASA and "walked" on the "moon". Here's a tip: never trust a Satanist, nor a coven, especially when their hands are in your pocket. "Hoodwink" is what they call it. Apollo is the name for Lucifer/Satan/Devil in Revelation 9:11. Picture Eyes Wide Shut, and Neil Armstrong at Bohemian Grove refusing (not allowed) to discuss his "moon walk". Speaking of homosexual pedophiles, wasn't Clarke one?
Dude, what the fuck are you babbling about now?
Arthur Clarke "renamed Jupiter LUCIFER"? Where'd you get that? Did you pull it out of your ass along with all your other "facts"?
Speaking of homosexual pedophiles, aren't YOU one? You seem awfully obsessed with them. Methinks thou dost protest too much!
CHRISISALL "Over the years you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE...THE...PEOPLE"
Friday, October 23, 2009 - 00:18
"My God, it's full of stars."
My Son & I watched 2010 just now, & we both loved it. I had to "push" it to 1080i to get it to look good (the 2000 transfer is really pedestrian), but we grooved to HAL's redemption in any case!
Really, it's just a pop-culture coda to a work of fine art, but I still like it immensely for the emotional content.
All FIREFLY related
graphics and photos on this page are copyright 2002-2009 Mutant Enemy, Inc.,
Universal Pictures, and 20th
Century Fox.
All other graphics and texts are copyright of the contributors to this website.
This website IS NOT
affiliated with the Official Firefly Site, Mutant Enemy, Inc., or 20th Century Fox. FIREFLYFANS.NET is part of the SHINY UNIVERSE NETWORK
Given the original ending, it would be in my top ten of all time- without it, it's merely great IMO.
Officially the Angriest Man on the Internet™.
). Not a dramatic countdown or anything. 'Sides, the Starchild could just deactivate stuff down there.
That's somewhat unsettling...."
"You know...your coat is kind of a brownish color..."
King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa